Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Back of Beyond => Topic started by: rumacara on January 26, 2021, 10:07:11 PM
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Hello all
I was thinking on doing a small force of FFL for the Russian Civil War period but i have doubts wich is the right uniform.
Would it be the khaki one or still the blue one that we are familiar with?
If the khaki one who makes appropriate figures please?
Thank you for your help
Rui
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Overseas troops, so including the Legion, wore khaki.
What scale and theatre are you looking at?
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As far as I know, the Legion battalion was only in the North, near Arkhangelsk. One machine-gun and three rifle companies, mostly recruited from local Russians.
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Mark and Cuprum thank you for the info. :)
Its for a "what if" use so a historical background wouldnt be necessary but good to know it was involved.
Mark i was planning to use 28mm.
I have some Copplestone chinese and russians and have 16 FFL from Artizan.
Would the uniform of the Artizan work painted in khaki?
Was it the same?
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I'm working on Archangel scenarios now, and the only French units I have come across thus far, is the 21st French Colonial Battalion. One eye-witness reference stated they were "clad in blue".
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From looking at some reference books the FFL in 1918 seemed to wear khaki with the Adrian helmet, much like the classic "poilu" . I have a plate of French troops in Russia which shows this but unfortunately the text is in Russian . You might look at the Gripping Beast "Woodbine Design" range for suitable figures. They produce quite a nice range with separate heads so you can choose the headgear.
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There is an upcoming Osprey - Armies In Southern Russia(June 2021) the cover shows a French colonial soldier in khaki.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Armies-Southern-Russia-1918-19-Men-at-Arms/dp/1472844769/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1611794770&sr=8-1
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There's a picture in Deryabin's Interventionist armies.
(http://imtw.ru/uploads/imperiall/loadst/imperial1522511919_int04.jpg)
The Osprey on the WWI Armies in the Balkans shows a colonial uniform (zouave, in particular) with a much greyer and paler "khaki".
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The composition of the French troops in the north of Russia at different times included:
- 21st marching battalion of the colonial infantry (870 people, 4 companies, of which 1 - ski; 12 heavy and 64 light machine guns),
- a detachment of skiers (numbering about a company; it operated from December 1918 and was formed from Russian volunteers of the Foreign Legion, who were recruited in Arkhangelsk),
- 21st Colonial Artillery Marching Group,
- one battery of the 61st and 62nd artillery regiments,
- 581st and 582nd Aviation Squadrons,
- Russian-French legion (4 companies; 16 heavy and 32 light machine guns
A total of 2,417 French troops.
From the book I. Deryabin "Troops of the interventionists".
On the tablet from Deryabin's book, which Mark posted, there is too much yellow. This is a print production problem, or inept editing by the person who scanned the tablet.
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From the same book:
In the Russian units of the French Foreign Legion in northern Russia, servicemen wore French uniforms, beret, and a collar in the form of a Russian tricolor flag.
The 21st Marching Colonial Infantry Battalion had a French blue-gray cloth uniform with a 21 on its buttonholes and an anchor.
The tablet shows an Algerian shooter in southern Russia. Riflemen (tyraliers), African light infantry, and African horse rangers all wore khaki uniforms.
Soldiers of the 21st Colonial Battalion:
(http://c.radikal.ru/c10/2101/b0/33cfc82351c1.jpg)
(http://b.radikal.ru/b20/2101/f7/ff8b4ae1bf20.jpg)
Soldiers of military units unknown to me:
(http://b.radikal.ru/b24/2101/f8/815b13126bbe.jpg)
(http://a.radikal.ru/a17/2101/bc/5df5da5b0996.jpg)
Rewarding the soldiers of the Polish contingent. The Poles dressed in gray-blue uniforms, suggesting that the French officer is wearing a khaki uniform. What division he is from, I do not know. Probably Foreign Legion:
(http://a.radikal.ru/a34/2101/bb/4a4f1576cec1.jpg)
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Cracking topic chaps, many thanks. Some great photo information. I've done mine in a mix of Khaki and blue.
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the fellows in the big Berets are Chasseurs ' Alpins,who were all ski trained. "Askari Minis makes some.
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Hmm ... I have a question. Is a large beret not a mandatory piece of uniform? Only for those with specialized training? In the first photo I gave, a guy behind a machine gun and in a beret has the insignia of the 21st colonial battalion on his overcoat. Does this mean that the entire colonial battalion had ski training?
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Hmm ... I have a question. Is a large beret not a mandatory piece of uniform? Only for those with specialized training? In the first photo I gave, a guy behind a machine gun and in a beret has the insignia of the 21st colonial battalion on his overcoat. Does this mean that the entire colonial battalion had ski training?
The entire colonial batalion had the great beret (nicknamed "tarte" ie "pie") It is the classical head gear for alpin troops (chasseurs, alpin infantry and alpin artillery) but the colonial troops use to wear it only for eastern or northern theatres (China , indochina sometimes, Russia...) every man received one, not only skiers.
regards
paco
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Wow!!! :o
Lots of info to digest. :)
Thank you all for the info. Keep it coming. ;)
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Thanks. I didn't know that.
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Good information,thanx.
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Superb thread.
You probably know this document (in French) from the French military photographers mission in Siberia and Northern Russia, 1918-19. Some pictures included, not many about French troops, in fact they were more interested in local pictures and Czech troops etc. so it will not help much for details of this project, but it's fascinating.
http://archives.ecpad.fr/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/spca.pdf
I'm currently painting a WW1 French staff officers set from Great War Miniatures which could (except the cuirassier colonel) be quite acceptable to represent general Janin or other French officers advisers on the Russian tsarist side, who still may have been wearing such uniforms (?)
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Yes, I have this document. But thanks anyway for your willingness to help.
I have a poor quality photo of officers from a French military mission in Siberia in 1919. On it, Captain Suben (I may not accurately reproduce the surname from the Russian language) definitely has a "colored" uniform, and it can also be assumed that General Janin has such a uniform.
There is another photo, which was called "French soldiers in Vladivostok", but I cannot guarantee the correctness of this name.
(http://b.radikal.ru/b23/2101/a4/35bb36abc111.png)
(http://d.radikal.ru/d09/2101/ea/0b6a92be9b2c.jpg)
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Yes, I have this document. But thanks anyway for your willingness to help.
I have a poor quality photo of officers from a French military mission in Siberia in 1919. On it, Captain Suben (I may not accurately reproduce the surname from the Russian language) definitely has a "colored" uniform, and it can also be assumed that General Janin has such a uniform.
There is another photo, which was called "French soldiers in Vladivostok", but I cannot guarantee the correctness of this name.
(http://b.radikal.ru/b23/2101/a4/35bb36abc111.png)
(http://d.radikal.ru/d09/2101/ea/0b6a92be9b2c.jpg)
The Roman Alphabet spelling may possibly be "Subban", which is an older French surname (which is now a lot more common in French-speaking African countries than it ever was in France).
I am not certain though!
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The photo is from Grondijs's book La guerre en Russie et en Sibérie.
https://archive.org/stream/laguerreenrussie00gronuoft#page/504/mode/2up
It is Captain Souben.
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error
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Yes, I have this document. But thanks anyway for your willingness to help.
I have a poor quality photo of officers from a French military mission in Siberia in 1919. On it, Captain Suben (I may not accurately reproduce the surname from the Russian language) definitely has a "colored" uniform, and it can also be assumed that General Janin has such a uniform.
There is another photo, which was called "French soldiers in Vladivostok", but I cannot guarantee the correctness of this name.
(http://b.radikal.ru/b23/2101/a4/35bb36abc111.png)
(http://d.radikal.ru/d09/2101/ea/0b6a92be9b2c.jpg)
Hello, the guy on left(with number 191 on the collar) with dark jacket seems to be an infantry officer wearing the old fashion 1892 jacket ( and surely red tripped in black trousers .
It is allowed , for officers, to wear these jacket in parad dress, this is the pre-1914 jacket. The general seems to wear the same!
On the field, "line"infantry wear the horizon blue dress except chasseurs à pieds/alpins (the case of the second photo with chasseurs NCO wearing specific marks on sleeves ) wich wear a dark blue dress and helmets with horizon blue coat,
-north african troops (zouaves, tirailleurs, spahis, chasseurs d'afrique, FFL and bataillons d'infanterie légère d'afrique) wich wear kaki dress.
Colonial troops are a bit complex, they should wear the kaki but most of them had the old fashion horizon blue dress. Only senegalese tiraillereurs wear always kaki sets.
reagrds
paco
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The photo is from Grondijs's book La guerre en Russie et en Sibérie.
https://archive.org/stream/laguerreenrussie00gronuoft#page/504/mode/2up
It is Captain Souben.
The depth of this forum's knowledge never ceases to amaze!
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Been reading a history of the French Foreign Legion. They really have been given some shit jobs over the years.
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When in doubt, I turn to be most reliable lol source of information....The opening scene of The Mummy :D ;)