Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: AdmiralAndy on January 28, 2021, 02:22:33 PM
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Hopefully the click bait question got you checking this out.
My question is during the 30ish year period of the WOTR there were also a number of other conflicts. Richard Stark (ahem York III) as Warden of the North I believe had conflicts with the Scotish which I believe saw a Scottish king dethroned/beheaded? Also there are various mentions to Rebellions and Peasant uprisings unrelated to the York and Lancaster Feud.
Are these particularly well detailed anywhere and any books (Tv Series/Documentaries) recommended for more information.
Thanks in advance for taking the time to read this and hopefully answer.
Meant this to be posted in Medieval, could a moderator move it please.
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You are indeed correct there are a lot of other military events that aren't as directly related to the Wars of the Roses, although to some extent they are.
Late 15th century English soldiers fight for Charles the Bold in his wars in the 1470s and in the Conquest of Granada in the 1480s.
Richard as Duke of Gloucester invades Scotland and captures Berwick in 1482
In 1488 English troops fight in the battle of St Aubin du Cormier in defence of Brittany
in 1488 James III of Scotland is killed by rebellious Barons who put his son on the throne at Sauchieburn.
In 1489 the Calais Garrison and some of Maximillian's Germans assault a French/Flemish rebel camp besieging Dixmuide
in 1492 Henry VII besieges Boulogne but not much happens as he is meant to meet with Maximilian I but Maximilian is short of cash so vanishes!
Perkin Warbeck as a Yorkist pretender (so related to the WOTR) besieges Waterford in 1495, in 1496 invades England (very briefly!) with James IV, and in 1497 assaults Exeter.
1497 is also the year of the Battle of Blackheath following a Cornish rebellion
For books Halls Chronicle covers all of these and is available online https://archive.org/details/hallschronicleco00halluoft/page/292/mode/2up
"The Perkin Warbeck Conspiracy 1491-1499" is also good for lots of these events.
"The Last Knight Errant: Sir Edward Woodville and the Age of Chivalry" will cover the English in Granada and at St Aubin du Cormier.
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Thanks Oli,
A more informed idea is what I was hoping for.
IIRC with some the Henry VII uprisings was related to a teenage boy claimed to be a descendant of the Yorks or Lancaster's and after it was defeated the boy was taken on a kitchen servant or page.
I'm quite interested in Richard Duke of Gloucester from what I've read the Lancaster's gave Berwick away for some Scottish support. So the campaign to get it back was related to the ongoing Feud. Are there any good accounts of this Scottish campaign, I'm quite interested in learning more about Richard as a competent Battle Hardened commander other than he fought as a 18/19 year old helping defeat Henry VI and then got beat at Bosworth about 15 years later.
Apologies if I'm shredding the facts, but its why I'm interested in learning a bit more.
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This is all pretty cool.
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IIRC with some the Henry VII uprisings was related to a teenage boy claimed to be a descendant of the Yorks or Lancaster's and after it was defeated the boy was taken on a kitchen servant or page.
You are probably thinking of Lambert Simnel, who ended up as a figurehead for the Yorkist uprising that was defeated in 1487 at the battle of Stoke Field, which is often considered to be the last battle of the Wars of the Roses. The forces of the "Yorkist pretenders" in this battle featured significant contingents of continental mercenaries and Irish.
As for other English military events in the later half of 15th century, I could add the following to the list by Oli:
1450: Jack Cade's rebellion results in a rebel force marching to London, where they are defeated.
1475: English forces land in Calais with the intent of assaulting France in cooperation with Burgundy and Bretagne, though instead of major military actions this eventually leads to a treaty with France (but there is plenty of potential for what-if battles).
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Do you specifically want English armies, conflicts on British soil? Or are you open to crossing the channel and doing something European? If the latter, there are no end of options...
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Do you specifically want English armies, conflicts on British soil? Or are you open to crossing the channel and doing something European? If the latter, there are no end of options...
Mainly on British/Scottish soil.
Its the conflicts that the Yorks/Lancasters where involved in that weren't against each other. But to get a better idea on just how turbulent those decades where.
May also shed some light on the supporters of each house and there feuds with each other.
Is there much available about the 1450 Uprising as that predates the formal start of the WOTR.
Thanks for the replies.
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More a subject for skirmishes, but there were also the feud within the Neville family in the 1430's, the Neville-Percy feud in the early 1450's which spilled over into the WOTR, and included a battle at Stamford Bridge in 1454 and the Bonville-Courtenay feud leading to a 'battle' at Clyst Heath in 1455.
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Don't forget the Lisle-Berkeley feud and the battle of Nibley Green , Gloucestershire (1470). England's last battle between private armies.
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Is there much available about the 1450 Uprising as that predates the formal start of the WOTR.
That uprising is not really in my field of expertise, though I understand that part of the reason was the loss of Normandy, where many Englishmen had held lands or offices, to the French crown in 1449-1450.
There is a Wikipedia page that provides a summary of the events and a list of references:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Cade%27s_Rebellion
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As a further question on the excellent replies which is much appreciated.
Is there a good reference to how a Scottish army would appear at this time?
Breakdown of troops with or without kilt? Any suggested range which would suit, that sort of thing if people can share.
Thanks.
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Just googled the Battle of Nibley Green,and it would make for a brilliant "Lion Rampant" scenario.
Coupled with the release of the new Athena Minis War of the Roses range, it's the final push I need to take the plunge and start a WotR collection.
Andy
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Just googled the Battle of Nibley Green,and it would make for a brilliant "Lion Rampant" scenario.
Coupled with the release of the new Athena Minis War of the Roses range, it's the final push I need to take the plunge and start a WotR collection.
Andy
Glad to see this has piqued another's interest :)
I should mention that Lion Rampant is pretty much the Ruleset I'd be looking at, as I have the LR Kingmaker rules by Mr Mersey from Wargame Soldiers Strategy Number 74 (I Think), and the more recent issue of Miniature Wargames which had a LR WOTR Battle of Blore Heath with some further unit and rules tweaks.
You might want to check out Never Mind The Billhooks cards, as LR has nothing further happening on double 1 or double 6 unlike Pikeman Lament and the cards give an idea of some further special events table to put together. There's also some interesting ideas about limited arrow supply and limited cavalry charges which I might see about blending in as well.
That's my view anyway, and all the above is easily obtainable with PDFs if you don't want to pay the extra for hardcopy.
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I'm looking into the pro-Lancastrian French invasion of Jersey in 1460/1, a period of skirmishes between Yorkist locals, and its final recapture by a combined force of locals led by Seigneur Philippe de Carteret and English troops led by Sir Richard Harliston in 1468.
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The Bonville- Courtenay feud that took place in the West Country and culminated with the 'Fight at Clyst' may be of interest. There's a wiki article here that gives a good overview:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonville%E2%80%93Courtenay_feud
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The Percy-Neville feud just pre-wotr is pretty interesting, and came to blows several times. In 1453, at Heworth Moor, younger sons of Lord Percy, along with hundreds of retainers/supporters, attacked a Neville wedding party. Further raids and counter-raids took place in the following months. Another larger conflict at Stamford bridge in 1454 ended this phase of the families feuding, and Egremont was captured and imprisoned.
There's also another feud that occured in Yorkshire in the 1440s, between the Archbishop Kemp and the Percy family. The Archbishop ended up recruiting border reivers/ruffians to police the city of Ripon and enforce tolls at markets/fairs. Locals from Knaresborough, who should have been exempt from such tolls, were not too happy and ambushed the reivers at Thornton Bridge.
I found this PhD by Mark Punshon very useful for details on the above.
https://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/2454/1/DX223236.pdf
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For conflicts on the borders, and into Scotland, the Douglases beat up the Percys at the battle of Sark, in 1448.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Sark
The Black and Red branches of the Douglas family also carried on a feud, with disastrous consequences for the more senior Black line, at the battle of Arkinholm in 1455.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Arkinholm
I've always thought this period of Scottish history is very interesting!
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[quote As a further question on the excellent replies which is much appreciated.
Is there a good reference to how a Scottish army would appear at this time?
Breakdown of troops with or without kilt? Any suggested range which would suit, that sort of thing if people can share.
[/quote]
The Osprey Book on the Battle of Flodden 1513, though a bit later would probably give you an idea on Scottish appearance.
Most lowland Scots would look much like their English counterparts.
Highlanders would probably be wearing yellow tunics or leines, the great kilt was developed in the 16th century and the modern small kilt even later.
Happy to be corrected if I am wrong.