Lead Adventure Forum
Other Stuff => General Wargames and Hobby Discussion => Topic started by: Mister Frau Blucher on February 16, 2021, 06:36:07 PM
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So I've got a bunch of figures from way back showing the signs of lead rot. I should have primed them back then - I know now. And some of these were bought in Ebay lots. At any rate, I have this problem, and I'm going to fight it.
I've done a lot of reading online, including some threads here on LAF. I'm going to document the various steps on my blog, but as I have more or less ascertained, this is the process I'll be following:
1. Soak in vinegar overnight.
2. Scrub with toothbrush in water.
3. Repeat several times.
I am skeptical this will solve everything, so I am prepared to do additional steps:
4. Use a wire brush.
5. And then use an Xacto knife.
I saw one thread here where a guy followed up with those last steps, and it finally did the trick. I'll do blog posts every other day or so about my progress. Here is the first post:
https://swordsunderdistantsuns.com/2021/02/16/combating-lead-rot-part-uno/
If anybody has had experience and/or actual success in fighting it, I'd definitely welcome all advice!
Here's a few pix from the post:
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In over fifty years messing about with metal figures, I've only had a few examples
to deal with. I mean 3 to 6 figures. Those I 'cured' with a wire brush & repaint.
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Interesting - and will be good to see your results.
From a quick google Lead Rot often seems to be caused by acetic (or other acids) in the air. But then the method to cure it is to soak in vinegar, which is acetic acid. Seems a little odd.
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My limited experience of attempting to rescue badly discoloured figures by soaking them in a bath of white vinegar leads me to feel this is likely to lead to, at best, disappointment, and quite possibly despair. My figures were more recent products than yours, I think, and the ailment in question was probably not lead rot per se, though a reliable diagnosis was never attained.
In short the the treatment, which was recommended by a former numismatist, only turned the figures black, and not in a nice way. I also attempted to clean up some tools and blades, with even worse results. The vinegar burned holes through aluminium and made steel revert to pure carbon (or, at any rate, that’s the way it appeared). I now use it exclusively to prepare soft plastic figures (it’s supposed to etch into the smooth surface and facilitate paint adhesion, though I’ve found this very difficult to confirm).
I did once have a recipe for lead rot treatment, however, which I found on, of all places, George R R Martin’s website (he was, and may still be, a collector of figures of knights, usually of considerable vintage). It had, I seem to remember, two ingredients, one of which was pure turpentine. I’ve not visited the site in years, but will see whether I can find it. In any event, it was taken from an old BMSS magazine, and may well be available elsewhere.
Edit: The article I mentioned is still available at georgerrmartin.com, though my recollection was faulty in some respects. It can be found under the section headed For Fans. Clicking on this brings up a menu, which includes the heading Knights; from this the subheading Comments on Collecting brings up a few articles, one of which is helpfully titled Lead Rot. The content would appear worthy of attention, not only for GRRM completists, though I am unable to comment on the efficacy of the technique described.
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In over fifty years messing about with metal figures, I've only had a few examples
to deal with. I mean 3 to 6 figures. Those I 'cured' with a wire brush & repaint.
I think the way I stored my unpainted lead has led to the number of problems I have. They were stored in plastic bins with no air flow, which from my reading seems to make it worse.
I have a feeling I'll be trying out the wire brush method.
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Interesting - and will be good to see your results.
From a quick google Lead Rot often seems to be caused by acetic (or other acids) in the air. But then the method to cure it is to soak in vinegar, which is acetic acid. Seems a little odd.
I had a similar thought, fred, about how the acid would help. But this seems to be accepted, so I'll find out if it does any good overnight.
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My limited experience of attempting to rescue badly discoloured figures by soaking them in a bath of white vinegar leads me to feel this is likely to lead to, at best, disappointment, and quite possibly despair. My figures were more recent products than yours, I think, and the ailment in question was probably not lead rot per se, though a reliable diagnosis was never attained.
In short the the treatment, which was recommended by a former numismatist, only turned the figures black, and not in a nice way. I also attempted to clean up some tools and blades, with even worse results. The vinegar burned holes through aluminium and made steel revert to pure carbon (or, at any rate, that’s the way it appeared). I now use it exclusively to prepare soft plastic figures (it’s supposed to etch into the smooth service and facilitate paint adhesion, though I’ve found this very difficult to confirm).
I did once have a recipe for lead rot treatment, however, which I found on, of all places, George R R Martin’s website (he was, and may still be, a collector of figures of knights, usually of considerable vintage). It had, I seem to remember, two ingredients, one of which was pure turpentine. I’ve not visited the site in years, but will see whether I can find it. In any event, it was taken from an old BMSS magazine, and may well be available elsewhere.
Edit: The article I mentioned is still available at georgerrmartin.com, though my recollection was faulty in some respects. It can be found under the section headed For Fans. Clicking on this brings up a menu, which includes the heading Knights; from this the subheading Comments on Collecting brings up a few articles, one of which is helpfully titled Lead Rot. The content would appear worthy of attention, not only for GRRM completists, though I am unable to comment on the efficacy of the technique described.
Hey, thanks, Andrew! I will check out that article. I am committed with this first batch of problem figures to see it through in the vinegar. If this first night does not help, I may switch to his method. Very curious to see what he says. I really appreciate the info and your tracking that down.
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I remember someone suggesting using Milliput slurry to fill in surface defects.
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Hey, thanks, Andrew! I will check out that article. I am committed with this first batch of problem figures to see it through in the vinegar. If this first night does not help, I may switch to his method. Very curious to see what he says. I really appreciate the info and your tracking that down.
You’re very welcome. Your post awoke my curiosity enough to seek out the article, which I read several years ago, and which seems to be considerably older than that. I was pleased to find it still in place, and have now reread it.
I’ll leave you to discover GRRM’s thoughts and findings for yourself. The two other articles on the pleasures and perils of collecting make interesting reading too. It’s a shame nothing has been added in recent years.
I wish you well with the vinegar treatment, which may react differently with lead-rich figures than with the items to which I subjected it, though I somehow doubt it.
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I had absolutely no idea what lead rot was so went for a Google.
Found this which might be of interest/use.
Part 1 is long.
Part 2 is very long.
http://minismuseum.com/2015/12/27/lead-rot-cleaning-pt-1/
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Part 1 is long.
Part 2 is very long.
Thanks for the warning, I won't bother with the reading then. lol lol lol
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I got this method online (I think it originated with George RR Martin, for what that's worth) and it works perfectly for me.
50/50 mix of mineral oil and pure acetone. Scrub it all over vigorously with an old toothbrush. This serves to remove flaky bits and treats what's left. For really severe cases a soak in the mix for a few hours may be required.
The miniatures have essentially been proofed for years against further deterioration, so they're safe to store away. They come out with a dark oily sheen, so when you go to paint them, bear in mind that you may find it helpful to give them a quick scrub with warm soapy water just to remove the surface grease and allow the paint to adhere.
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Part 1 is long.
Part 2 is very long.
But lead rot is forever.
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So I had some deposits form on an old Warzone mini (apparently quite common) and I followed some instructions I found.
Basically soaked the parts in white wine vinegar then boiled in de-ionised water before cleaning the parts with a wire brush. Once was enough and a few years later the bits (still sitting in a box unused) are still looking fine and clear. Admittedly the Warzone stuff isn't that old and it was just some surface deposits.
The key thing is I guess that lead rot isn't "fixable" as such, you can only clear away the affected metal and stop the reaction. So it will depend on how much damage has already been done.
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Indeed. It’s cancer for minis - incurable but can be arrested if treated early enough.
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My sincere thanks to everyone for their thoughts!
I took the figures out of the vinegar and scrubbed them with an old toothbrush in distilled water. Here is the blog post, with a few more photos:
https://swordsunderdistantsuns.com/2021/02/17/combating-lead-rot-part-deux/
Basically, there was some improvement, but not enough. The first photo below shows where the white dust is gone, but it is now clearly embedded in the tiny grooves that have corroded into her base. The second photo was of a Custom Cast Napoleonic that was in a job lot I bought, and it shows no improvement.
I tracked down the post from George RR Martin that Andrew and Cubs mentioned - thanks to you both! He uses a 50/50 mix of Turpentine and highly refined mineral oil. There are two types of mineral oil (according to my Google-Fu). The highly refined version, which also seems to be called white mineral oil, is actually safe for human consumption; it seems to be used on kitchen cutting boards as protectant/lubricant. I see that Amazon carries several brands.
On George's blog post, he swears by this treatment. So I think rather than repeat the vinegar process a half-dozen times in the hope of having success, I will get the stuff to make his mix and go from there. I am going to do a bit more research to make sure I am actually getting the highly refined stuff, but hopefully next week I will have a follow up to this, with news of resounding success!
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I had absolutely no idea what lead rot was so went for a Google.
Found this which might be of interest/use.
Part 1 is long.
Part 2 is very long.
http://minismuseum.com/2015/12/27/lead-rot-cleaning-pt-1/
Wow, that's a great read! Thanks for finding that! With my luck, I would electrocute myself with that set-up...but if the Martin method fails, this will be next on my list!
Oddly enough, when I clicked on the Part 2 link, it took me back to Part 1. Seems like Part 2 is comprised of several videos?
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I re-read the Martin blog, and he specifies pure gum turpentine. Evidently, there are two kinds of terp - gum and wood. It seems that wood turpentine is the most common. So it might be more difficult to get this turpentine, though Amazon carries it, of course...
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I wouldn't be too strict about whether you use turps, white spirit, acetone or anything like that - I just used acetone because I had a load of it handy and it works a treat - I think the important thing is it's an alcohol.
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I wouldn't be too strict about whether you use turps, white spirit, acetone or anything like that - I just used acetone because I had a load of it handy and it works a treat - I think the important thing is it's an alcohol.
I think you're right here, Cubs. But I am going to try using the exact things Martin says his restorer specified. The reason is because I have thousands of figures all made from 75-85, many unpainted and unprimed (that I still have hopes of one day getting painted up), so they are particularly vulnerable to rot. I think it will be worth the 30-40 dollar investment if I can stop it dead in its tracks, and not have to worry about it when I encounter it again.
All that being said, that electrolysis process that Spinal Tap found seems to be the best and most thorough. That would be more difficult for me to set up than the blog author suggests, but the results are fantastic. If this formula doesn't work, I will have to give that a go.
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Some nice blog posts and mr Martin's own have some nice links some even still work
http://web.archive.org/web/20041103013246/http://www.xmission.com/~macgill/reference/preservation.html
and this gem
http://docshare01.docshare.tips/files/25181/251812731.pdf
Which leads (sorry) to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_carbonate
Good luck and look forward to reading about your results :)
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But I am going to try using the exact things Martin says his restorer specified.
Can't fault you, bud. I only used acetone because I had it in a tub and I'm tight as a gnat's chuff with money.
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Firstly, no one has mentioned that the bloom known as "lead rot" is also known as white lead and is very toxic. Generating any dust, by scrapping dry figures, is not recommended. Use separate, and if possible disposable, tools and cover your work area with newspaper or similar and dispose of the used covers & tools promptly.
Here's some chemistry for you:
In the presence of oxygen, water and carbon dioxide metallic lead will be oxidised and converted to lead carbonate. The rate at which this happens is normally very slow; after all lead is well known to be a relatively stable, and unreactive metal. However acetic acid acts as a catalyst greatly increasing the speed with which the reaction proceeds.
In all, lead rot occurs in three stages:
- A layer of lead oxide forms on the surface of the metal as the metallic lead reacts with oxygen in the air. Under normal circumstance the reaction stops here.
- In the presence of acetic acid and water, the layer of lead oxide reacts quickly to form lead acetate.
- Finally, the lead acetate reacts further with carbon dioxide to form lead carbonate releasing acetic acid and water in the process.
Overall the reactions above result in the metallic lead eating away at itself and your miniature disappearing before your eyes. It is however not all bad news. For lead to rot you need a source of oxygen, water, carbon dioxide and acetic acid.
Of these four compounds acetic acid is the most important as it significantly increases the rate at which the lead will rot at room temperature and only a very small amount is required as it is not present in the final lead carbonate.
Under normal circumstances the amount of carbon dioxide required will limit the extent of decay. Carbon dioxide only represents about 0.0387% by volume of the Earth’s atmosphere; so not a lot really.
The main problem occurs when the miniature is stored in something that will supply water, acetic acid and carbon dioxide, like a cardboard or wooden box. The slow breakdown of the wood or wood pulp will release carbon dioxide and water; as well as a small amount of acetic acid. Suddenly we have three components of the mix and the air around us provides the fourth, oxygen, in abundance.
Because of this I have never understood the advice to wash figures in acetic acid (vinegar). Warm, soapy water would be much better.
Link to previous thread on the topic (https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=1837.msg19657#msg19657).
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Thanks to everyone who has chimed in!
The overnight soaking I did in the vinegar has made things worse! Once the figures dried, it was clear there was more rot. I included 2 pictures below. This is as science suggests, as others on this thread have pointed out. Not sure where the whole soak your lead rotting figs in vinegar started, but it is common on the web and comes up abundantly in google searches. Lots more bloom on the cleric and space-dude than when I started the vinegar thing.
Tactalvanic - thanks for those links! While I am waiting for my turps and oil to arrive, I am going to soak the figures for a couple of nights in the baking soda and water treatment, as suggested in your second link. That should hopefully arrest the process I hastened with vinegar!
vexillia - thanks for bringing up the safety aspect. I have been lax all my life about that, and it is dumb. Lead is toxic. In the pic below, taken yesterday, I am holding the figs with bare hands. Headed off to Home Depot right now to get some disposable gloves and facemasks. Your post also got me researching lead removal soaps, as most sites say standard soap is not good enough. Looks like D-lead is a good brand, and it is available at some retailers, mostly online, including Amazon. I'll see if Home Depot has any, or any other brand, while I'm there.
Man, I think of all the early years in this hobby when I was a teenager, playing with my unpainted lead figures, and going straight to dinner, never washing my hands or taking any precaution...
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OK, I got the figures I am treating in this initial trial run all soaking in a baking soda and water solution, as suggested independently by Tactalvanic here and my Mom when when reading my posts (thanks, Mom!). There was no formula, so I used a tablespoon for a 12 ounce mug. Hopefully that will arrest the damage acceleration caused by my vinegar excursion. I'll leave it in until Monday or so, then scrub them in anticipation of the Mack-daddy treatment of turps/mineral oil, which should arrive Wednesday.
I did got to Home Depot and get disposable gloves and masks. From here on out, I am taking lead seriously. Maybe my single-digit IQ came from lead exposure, or maybe it was genetics, or maybe it was public schooling; at either rate, I can be a cautionary tale for future generations of lead enthusiasts!
I also got a wire brush. I don't think the old toothbrush has enough attack. Since the lead damage is irreversible, and I want to make sure the bloom is gone, I am going to be aggressive. I got a 3-pack, so I'll throw out the one I use on these figs.
Also, I need to get a good soap. Regular soap is not strong enough to get rid of lead on your skin. D-lead seems to be a prominent brand. It was not at HD, but it is on Amazon. Walmart has D-lead wipes; not sure which way I'll go at this point, but I'll update here.
I did a blog post on this with a bit more info, but the essential stuff is in this here post.
A couple of pix. The first is an action! photo with the baking soda and water. The second is the exact mask and glove combo I got at HD.
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NOOO!! Not with a wire brush, that will shred your mins to bits because the metal is too soft to survive that, especially if they're already a little fragile with the first stages of lead rot. The toothbrush is fine, trust me, just scrub firmly.
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NOOO!! Not with a wire brush, that will shred your mins to bits because the metal is too soft to survive that, especially if they're already a little fragile with the first stages of lead rot. The toothbrush is fine, trust me, just scrub firmly.
I am reluctant to use the wire brush, no doubt, despite people online insisting that you should, since the damage is done. These were probably the same ones who said to use vinegar...
Cool, I will hold off on the wire brush usage. I'll stick with the tooth brush.
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Cool, I will hold off on the wire brush usage. I'll stick with the tooth brush.
Whatever you do, don’t mix them up. It’s murder on your gums.
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Whatever you do, don’t mix them up. It’s murder on your gums.
lol
I'd better label them!
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Right! My turps and mineral oil arrived, so I took the figures out of the baking soda solution and scrubbed them. They were looking good at first after that treatment, but as they dried, the bloom returned. See the wet and dry pix below.
So the baking soda option does not seem to be strong. Maybe with repeated applications? But we're moving on to the (hopefully) big guns.
I put up a post on my blog with a lot more pictures:
https://swordsunderdistantsuns.com/2021/02/23/combating-lead-rot-part-5/
But the essential information is this: I did a 50/50 mixture (eyeballed, not precisely measured) of the pure gum turps and white mineral oil (see pic below for exact brands). And I am soaking the figures in that for a day or two. The Martin blog says to apply with a cotton swab and scrub, but this seems to be for larger, painted lead knight collectibles where you are doing spot repairs. Since this situation is different, I am going to soak, and then scrub, flush with water, scrub again.
Hope this does it!
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I soaked the figs in the 50/50 pure gum turps/white mineral oil for three days. I took them out and quickly scrubbed them today, and then flushed them with fresh water as I scrubbed some more.
Here is the blog post with more pix and more blathering:
https://swordsunderdistantsuns.com/2021/02/26/combating-lead-rot-part-checks-notes-six/
But basically, I am very happy with what is going on. Almost all of the rot seems to be gone; it is visible on four figures still. After they dry thoroughly tomorrow, I will double check each one, and then attack the ones still showing rot with another mix of the solution and the old toothbrush, and see where we are then.
For the rest of the figures, I will wait a week (as suggested on the Martin blog) so that they completely dry, and then prime them so they don't rot any more.
An interesting side effect of the soak is how dark they have become. Doesn't bug me as I'm going to prime them anyway, but it is similar to how dark the figures became in the electrolysis process posted by Spinal Tap on page 1.
The first pic below is a figure fresh out of the solution; the second is the same figure after scrubbing and flushing. The last pic is of the four still showing signs of rot.
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I found four other figures that needed some attention. All the others look great, so I am very happy with this remedy for lead rot.
Pix and 3.146 paragraphs of bloviation here:
https://swordsunderdistantsuns.com/2021/02/27/combating-lead-rot-part-7/
But the short of it is, I did not wash off the solution from these eight dudes after working on them. I got to thinking that on Martin's blog he did not mention washing it off, just letting it dry for a week. So maybe it keeps on working on the bloom as it dries? We'll see.
So pending what happens with these eight figs as they dry, it looks like this is a real solution to lead rot.
Thanks to everyone who chimed in!
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So I am now working on some rot in my painted figures. Not that my paint jobs are particularly worth saving, but I want to stop the lead bloom, of course, and see if any painted areas can be saved.
It was mostly successful. You can read about it on my blog, if interested.
https://swordsunderdistantsuns.com/2021/03/25/fighting-lead-rot-on-painted-miniatures/
The solution did little harm to the paint jobs on three of the figures, and they'll just need some touch up where the rot was bad.
The worst figure was a different story. She was painted back around 1982, and it looks like I may not have primed her. I included two pix below. One of her before the process, in all her bloomy glory, and then after scrubbing and a two-day soak in the mixture followed by more scrubbing. She'll need to sit in simple green, as her paint is beyond hope. At that point, I am hoping that she won't need any more attention, as I don't want to use the wire brush, but I may if the damage looks really bad after she emerges from her soak.
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That's interesting, thanks. :)
I had seen a lot of people saying the best way to prevent lead rot is to paint the figures, so I am surprised (perhaps naively so) to see that it doesn't actually guarantee it!
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That's interesting, thanks. :)
I had seen a lot of people saying the best way to prevent lead rot is to paint the figures, so I am surprised (perhaps naively so) to see that it doesn't actually guarantee it!
I think what they mean is that you need is a solid coat, like a few layers of lacquer.
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That's interesting, thanks. :)
I had seen a lot of people saying the best way to prevent lead rot is to paint the figures, so I am surprised (perhaps naively so) to see that it doesn't actually guarantee it!
Hey, JollyBob,
I think I made several mistakes when I painted this figure way back when. It doesn't look like I primed her, because there is none around the base's edge. Leaving that bare, as well as the bottom of the base, was a mistake. I am not sure of the exact science, but evidently that gives the rot a "way in." I am not sure I got a clear protective coating over this figure, either; though that may not have protected the bare metal.
So I THINK painting a figure will protect it...if it covers every bit of surface. The other painted figures I showed in my blog post had paint all over them, except the bottom of the base - so there was exposed lead. But then again, the bloom showed up on surfaces that were painted...so it's still a bit of a mystery to me.
I am just happy that the 50/50 mix of pure gum terps and white mineral oil seems to get rid of the bloom (fingers/shoelaces/eyebrows crossed...).