Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: Samuel on February 22, 2021, 07:23:13 PM
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I am thinking about commissioning a new line of 28mm miniatures for 5th century Greeks.
The main existing lines I’m aware of are:
Wargames Foundry: https://www.wargamesfoundry.com/pages/the-world-of-the-greeks
Warlord Games: https://store.warlordgames.com/search?type=product&q=Greek
Victrix: https://www.victrixlimited.com/collections/greek-ancients
My design goals for a new line would include:
As historically accurate as possible
Taking advantage of the new resin printing technology to make proportions more accurate
Greater variety within units - different helm styles, armor, differing body shapes, etc.
Representing hoplites of different levels of wealth, ranging from full bronze to no armor except the aspis and helm.
Representatives of changes over time from early Persian war to post Peloponnesian war, from different regions.
A range of stances taking into account the latest research, including low, underarm, and high attacking stances along with some resting stances.
My goal would be to have enough variety to plausibly represent any historical force from the 5th, avoiding outdated or mythological tropes.
What would you like to see in a new Greek range? What complaints or concerns do you have about existing ranges? Anything I should be aware of?
Obviously this is all several months out to start commissioning the 3d models. I’m currently working on a concept art book that covers the full range of weapons, armor, stances that I want to include, so I’d love to get any input you guys can provide.
Thanks!
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Hmmm not sure there is a lot out there for the period.
How about going slightly earlier. Full Corinthian helmet and that cool extra armour on thighs and arms.
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I agree with the earlier. I would advocate for an archaic period proto-hoplite period.
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I agree with the earlier. I would advocate for an archaic period proto-hoplite period.
That's a good idea. You mean the ones with couple of throwing spears and a thrusting spear?
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To make sure you know where the gaps are, there is also the First Corps range.
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That's a good idea. You mean the ones with couple of throwing spears and a thrusting spear?
Yes, I have only ever seen one figure from this era.
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I agree with the earlier. I would advocate for an archaic period proto-hoplite period.
That's a good idea. You mean the ones with couple of throwing spears and a thrusting spear?
Yes: That is what I was thinking of. They had a good article, with even better images, in a WS&S issue some time back.
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The 5th century BC started the first day of 500 BC and ended the last day of 401 BC, so that is a lot of turf that has been covered by almost every figure manufacturer.
If you are talking 6th century then that is a different period of heavy hoplites (as already stated the ones with throwing and thrusting spears, and arm and thigh armor).
What's really missing for 5th Century Greeks is some Persian types that get overlooked like Ionians and Lydian marines and Sacae at Marathon which seem to never get done except as light archers. Plus there is still room for many oddball Persian cavalry- Sagartians with lassos? There is probably some crossover between the heavy hoplites and the Persian Wars, but still there are plenty of figures available in bell cuirrasses.
Talos (Yannis Katsanakis) posted some of his 6th-5th century Classical Greeks recently as an example of his highly detailed sculpts of real fancy armored hoplites. So more of that is always welcome, and a good guide post of what future resin sculpts should aspire to.
https://www.puttyandpaint.com/Talos
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I appreciate the feedback guys. I think I’m set on 5th century, because the models go along with other work I’m doing on the Persian and Peloponnesian Wars. Thanks for the link to The Talos models. That is very much in line with what I’m thinking.
I will look into Ionians and Lydians if I can find good reference material.
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Here's some cool versions of Persian Saka and Phoenician Marines at Marathon. These Sakas at least look like they mean business.
(http://1[img]
[img]2)
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I appreciate the feedback guys. I think I’m set on 5th century, because the models go along with other work I’m doing on the Persian and Peloponnesian Wars. Thanks for the link to The Talos models. That is very much in line with what I’m thinking.
I will look into Ionians and Lydians if I can find good reference material.
Im always glad when I see people aiming for historical accuracy! Here you can find my minis https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=128151.0
and here is my wip thread. https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=117693.msg1637290#msg1637290
Unfortunately for the time being an injury holds me back from my program but Im always happy to exchange ideas on the subject. :)
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How about a few sculpts of the humble sphendonetos holding his sling properly(retention loop over middle finger and release cord between thumb and index finger) rather than the usual ham fisted grasp found on 100% of slingers from every period. Maybe also with some dynamic poses?!
Probably not very glamerous, but at least it is historically accurate!
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Jeff, what book are those from? I hadn’t seen them.
Eoin, great suggestion. I’ve been thinking about auxiliary troops as well.
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Jeff, what book are those from? I hadn’t seen them.
Eoin, great suggestion. I’ve been thinking about auxiliary troops as well.
These are from Periskopio Publications, Stratiotike Istoria (Millitary History). The art is by Christos Giannopoulos. I would take some of his illustrations with a grain of salt when it comes to historical authenticity. Most of these were created too fast (and payed too cheap) to be considered properly researched.
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I think there is more need for the people around the Greeks, like Scythians, Traciansm Illyrians, Kolchis etc. then for further Greeks.
I miss especially Scythian Infantry (both with bow and Javelins), early Tracians Noble cavaly and people around the Black Sea compatible with the Foundry miniatures.
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I think there is more need for the people around the Greeks, like Scythians, Traciansm Illyrians, Kolchis etc. then for further Greeks.
I miss especially Scythian Infantry (both with bow and Javelins), early Tracians Noble cavaly and people around the Black Sea compatible with the Foundry miniatures.
Why just compatible with Foundry?
Is that what most people are purchasing currently?
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Only my peronal wish ;)
Foundry Skythians and Tracians are still the best on the market and the Foundry Greeks are my personal favorites.
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I prefer metal myself.
Plastic seems to be all the rage but there are drawbacks.
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These are from Periskopio Publications, Stratiotike Istoria (Millitary History). The art is by Christos Giannopoulos. I would take some of his illustrations with a grain of salt when it comes to historical authenticity. Most of these were created too fast (and payed too cheap) to be considered properly researched.
Yes, and yes. These illustrations are often way over the top. But OTOH they allow for a certain room to create some more than the usual suspects of ordinary Persian figures. The tall Sacae caps are a unique feature, and the fact they were in the center of the Persian line denote that probably some were armored spearmen. These representations combine a lot Persian and Ionian elements for the hoplite as well. My old Garrison Sacae in 25mm still are hard to find something close in 28mm.
I note that this week Victrix is closing in on completing their plastic figure sets. The armoured set was the latest. This is part of growing surge in Persians, but still addresses the top of the line and never seems to get to variants of the myriads of nations. The Wargames Atlantic set has a number of head swaps which do allow variants which is very useful since often the base clothing is similar.
Still no Sacae tall hats, Babylonian Red Sea men, and the vast array of different ethnic troops available in the past from the glory days of 25mm. I was just thinking of upgrading these bases yet again. The best way to keep the old 25's in use is to make their bases taller!
I recognize that Persian levies in miniature is a thankless task!
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Jeff, what reference material are your Persians based on? I’d like to find some good books and/or websites with good archeological references.
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Jeff, what reference material are your Persians based on? I’d like to find some good books and/or websites with good archeological references.
Note these 25mm Persians I showed off (except for the Elamite archers by Navigator) were all painted back in the 1970's so the only resources were the now much out of date but fun as heck Funcken books, plus other printed soldier books.
LES COSTUME ET LES ARMES DES SOLDATS DE TOUS LES TEMPS - 1. Des pharaons a louis XV
Funcken, Liliane et Fred
https://www.biblio.com/book/costume-armes-soldats-detous-temps-1/d/1127784602?aid=frg¤cy_id=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiAvvKBBhCXARIsACTePW8qtlyqyf2FNTW6HuhkGr5cCHUhrSX11jgkiab22AwlfMJ6uvONv1saAnwQEALw_wcB
In 1975 we had the WRG books like this one by Richard Nelson and Ian Heath:
Armies of the Greek and Persian Wars 500 to 350 BC paperback – 1975 (new hardback version November 28, 2015)
by Richard Nelson (Author)
https://www.amazon.com/Armies-Greek-Persian-Wars-500/dp/1326256491
In 1983 the most important work was published by Duncan Head and Ian Heath, the virtual bible of this period's studies from 450 BC to the Roman empire:
Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars Paperback – 1983 (New hardback edition April 15, 2016
by Duncan Head (Author)
https://www.amazon.com/Armies-Macedonian-Punic-Wars-Duncan/dp/1326256564/ref=pd_lpo_14_t_0/135-6010953-9220339?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=1326256564&pd_rd_r=48053013-84b7-4cf2-9d1d-21674306d96f&pd_rd_w=AUnO4&pd_rd_wg=OvcGg&pf_rd_p=16b28406-aa34-451d-8a2e-b3930ada000c&pf_rd_r=0GRPBNAP97869MJX63NE&psc=1&refRID=0GRPBNAP97869MJX63NE
Not satisfied with that truncated version of Persian research Duncan Head released this even more brilliant and expensive collectors item in 1992. Duncan Head and Richard Scollins and Christopher Rothero:
https://www.amazon.com/Achaemenid-Persian-Army-Duncan-Head/dp/1874101000/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=the+achaemenid+persian+army&qid=1614621942&s=books&sr=1-1
Then there are the Osprey Elite and other Osprey series on the Persian Army which covers the late army nicely with somewhat staged but detailed plates.
https://www.amazon.com/Persian-Army-560-330-BC-Elite/dp/1855322501
Newest are the Persicopio Press books on Thermopylae, Salamis, and Marathon (as noted in posts above) which have spirited color reconstructions that are (as I said ) over the top but inspiring nonetheless.
Also you can search the web and find persian re enactors:
https://legio-iiii-scythica.com/index.php/en/thracian-hellenistic-historical-restorations/persian-restoration.html
https://hetairoi.de/en/pictures/2011/langenzersdorf
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Thanks for the great reference links! I struggle with non-academic sources like Osprey, trying to understand what is historically based and what is just fanciful. Sometimes it is hard to tell, and I suppose sometimes it is the best we can do.
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What do you think of this for an historically accurate slinger from the 5th Century?
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The slinger looks great.
After reading the Chris Cameron books I thought some Egyptian and Phoenician marines would be good to have as miniatures.
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Sticking my two pence in.
I think there is a market for a universal figure.
I hark back to the 1960s when the vast majority of my
(schoolboy pocket money funded) troops came from
Airfix Robin Hood set. Helped by Bob O'Brian's wonderful
series Romans, friends & foes. Why that set? I hear you ask.
Good question. It provided guys in a tunic, which could become
just about any ancient troop type. Head swaps added to the variety.
So... how about a figure, or figures, in tunic? With a choice of separate
heads, shields, bow-cases etc. Would fulfil the need for so many units.
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What do you think of this for an historically accurate slinger from the 5th Century?
I think he looks very good. Will those digital files be available to buy?
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I’m with the others on this, Lydian Hoplites for example, would be useful.
Plus the various Persian marines deployed in the period.
I’m still stunned that no one produces a decent plastic Indian range?
An infantry box,
An elephant box,
A mixed chariot/basic cav box.
Aventine do wonderful but only two elephants!
Sorry, I’ve hijacked the thread!
But really, basic Indian troop types should be easy stuff to create in 3D?
From a purely business perspective, producing yet more Greeks, whilst I’m sure they’ll be lovely, will just give you loads of competition?
Whereas Indians are very sadly lacking at the moment.
Plus they are hugely popular.
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I’ve been playing ancients on and off since I was a child, starting with WRG rules.
Indians were always popular, and in all four rule sets I’ve played over the years, Indians were always a powerful successful force to use.
I know I’m biased, I’ve painted 3 separate Indian armies over the last 40+ years!
Vendel, 1st Corps, and I think Minifigs?
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"It provided guys in a tunic, which could become
just about any ancient troop type. Head swaps added to the variety."
The Wargames Factory Numidians are the set you are implying. It has a core tunic/sleeveless and some generic heads.
A more up to date version of that would be useful.
Wargames Factory
http://wabcorner.blogspot.com/2011/08/wargames-factory-numidian-light_05.html
However, the Victrix Peltasts, archers, and unarmored hoplites are very useful -except for their poorly engineered idea of having the hands cast onto the spears- since they break too easily and drilling out hands that are glued on- well that's tedious.
Victrix
https://www.victrixlimited.com/products/greek-unarmoured-hoplites-and-archers
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I’ve been playing ancients on and off since I was a child, starting with WRG rules.
Indians were always popular, and in all four rule sets I’ve played over the years, Indians were always a powerful successful force to use.
I know I’m biased, I’ve painted 3 separate Indian armies over the last 40+ years!
Vendel, 1st Corps, and I think Minifigs?
Tim- did you check out these. They seem rather healthy 28's up there with Vendel (Thistle & Rose now).
http://www.theminiaturecompany.co.uk/28mm-Ranges/Indian/indian.html
(You made me laugh "I think Minifigs" like you were blacked out?)
Tim's great vendel Indians in a box still ride here- I need to replace the images with higher res. these were posted long ago when bandwidth cost extra.... They were the perfect convention road army.
https://ancientbattles.com/Indians/indian_army_tim_haslam.htm
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I think he looks very good. Will those digital files be available to buy?
That’s the plan. I’m hoping to do some things that are possible with modern resin printers that were not with metal or plastic casting.
I’m working with a number of different sculptors to do different units, probably to do an STL Kickstarter or something. I’m also working up a series of scenarios to do an escalation league for the period. I think that’s one of the main barriers to entry for historicals. It always feels like you have to buy and paint 100 guys before the first battle.
I’m pretty focused on Greeks at the moment, I’ve read half a dozen books on the period in the last few weeks, and I really want to get this down. I appreciate the other suggestions though... maybe next year :)
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Good luck with the venture, apologies for having a moan about Indians! lol
Thanks Jeff.
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Good luck with the venture, apologies for having a moan about Indians! lol
Thanks Jeff.
No worries. I’m interested in Indians too, but you’ve got to start somewhere and I’ve been disappointed in the Greek ranges. Currently reworking the place where the sling attaches to the hand because it’s just a touch too delicate. Otherwise the first test prints are good.
Anyone here have a 3d printer and want to try some test prints?
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That Slinger model looks fantastic.
I make and use slings myself so I have an appreciation of the humble sling many may not.
You have it braided which is right, there are definitely historical references to Greek slings being of braided "hair", although more likely of plant fibres.
Not sure how practical it may be to implement but the the retention cord usually goes on the slingers middle finger, and as you have, the release cord goes between the index and thumb. That may actually make the join stronger on the figure.
What about a pouch or bag for the glandes(stones)?
If you are sculpting stones, say in the pouch of the sling for example, the size obviously varies but the ideal size of shot is about the size and shape of a chickens egg, so not pebbles.
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The first lad I ever wargamed with (Oscar are you out there?)
used to on about his Balearic slingers.
They had three slings. Short range, worn as a head band.
Medium range, worn around the waist &
Long range , worn as a bandolier.
Also the young trainees used to have their 'packed lunch'
placed on a nearby wall. They were not allowed to eat it
until they had hit it with a slingshot.
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I’m with the others on this, Lydian Hoplites for example, would be useful.
Plus the various Persian marines deployed in the period.
I’m still stunned that no one produces a decent plastic Indian range?
An infantry box,
An elephant box,
A mixed chariot/basic cav box.
Aventine do wonderful but only two elephants!
Sorry, I’ve hijacked the thread!
But really, basic Indian troop types should be easy stuff to create in 3D?
From a purely business perspective, producing yet more Greeks, whilst I’m sure they’ll be lovely, will just give you loads of competition?
Whereas Indians are very sadly lacking at the moment.
Plus they are hugely popular.
Not plastic, but Watchful I had some really interesting looking Mauryan Indian figures. I don't think they ever came to market:
https://www.watchfulistudio.com/mauryan-empire-project.html
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Shame about those Watchful figures.
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Wow! Yeah those designs are amazing! If they were available I would definitely pick some up. :o
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Wow!
Perfect!
So what happened to them?
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I don't know. They were the next big release for the longest time, but that's all that's on their website now....
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Argh!!
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No worries. I’m interested in Indians too, but you’ve got to start somewhere and I’ve been disappointed in the Greek ranges. Currently reworking the place where the sling attaches to the hand because it’s just a touch too delicate. Otherwise the first test prints are good.
Anyone here have a 3d printer and want to try some test prints?
I recently have bought a 3D printer (Phrozen Sonic Mini 4K), So I would certainly want to test print it. I agree about what you said about what is possible with 3D printers now. I printed a couple of Spanish 11th century knights and I see the benefits compared with resin or metal mini's. The quality is as good as resin miniature, but less parts to assemble and the sculptor don't have to think about how it can be moulded. So the sculptor doesn't has to compromise to get the mini cast.
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Check your PMs, Tonhel! I’ll send you a file to print.
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Check your PMs, Tonhel! I’ll send you a file to print.
Have you pmed me?
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Yes. Let me know if you didn’t get it. I basically asked for your email address so I could send the file.
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For maximum heresy:
Chariots. o_o
Obviously, not historical, but they seem to crop up in depicting scenes from the myths (Iliad specifically) with hoplites in full 5th century gear on them.
You will (I suspect) have a target audience of 1 (me). lol
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My favorite book growing up was the The Iliad and the Odyssey, A Giant Golden Book, January 1, 1956
by Jane Werner Watson (Adapter), Homer (Author), Martin Provensen (Illustrator), Alice Provensen (Illustrator)
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I have the same book, grew up with it. Quite well loved by this point.