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Miniatures Adventure => Railway Wargaming => Topic started by: former user on September 02, 2009, 10:03:50 AM
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Hello there
I desperately need to know how the russian railway carriages were painted at the dawn of tsarist empire
not the armoured trains, but the civilan stuff
passenger, stock, flat, boxcars, etc everything
are there any colour pictures or does anyone know???
please help
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Have a read of this, I haven't had time to (lunch break at work) but there might be something in there. There is a piccy of some carridges crossing a bridge that might give you an idea of style (the pictures are in black and white though). The station mistress is someone you wouldn't want to mess with lol
http://mikes.railhistory.railfan.net/r091.html
Hope it's a help
cheers
James
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yep
irina balshovna, our "man" in vladivostok
thanks, I knew the site
the two trains shown are typical, the earlier style which you find almost everywhere before 1900, and the manchurian express with the later imported Pullman coaches though I can't recognise if there is a closed vestibule
the pullmanns would be the typical coffee colour, but this is typical for luxury coaches to keep the manufacturers' marking
the steam engine is also a rather later 1910 one
the transsiberian is very special, and I am looking for the rather general colouring of everyday trains
but thank You anyway, I shall read the text since I forgot the site
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Lots of colours is the correct answer to this question. I model Russian railways circa 1918 in H0 and the lack of basic information is often quite annoying.
Coaches were coloured differently in different railways and often between different classes of coaches on the same railway so 1st class coach would be a different colour from a 3rd class coach on the same train. I suspect illiteracy was a spur to ensuring as much differentiation as possible, like the coloured bands that early British trams had.
However if you want to portray coaches in Siberia its a little easier as there are a couple of excellent colour photographs from the beginning of the century in the Library of Congress photograph collection (available on the Net). The coaches are somewhere between buff and tan coloured. Look up their collection and you will find a pile of photos of the railway and its environs from 1902.
Wagons seem to have been bauxite red although sometimes this looks almost black. There are lots and lots of photos (in b&w) on the net of russian 4 wheel closed wagons usually found looking for RCW or WW1 photos. It took me a long time to decipher what the various markings on russian closed wagons meant but I can tell you what they are as well if you want to depict them too. Later US imported bogie wagons seem to have had markings only rarely and I have assumed they were painted bauxite/red too. Oil tank wagons - white/grey is all I have been able to determine from repainted surviving vehicles.
If you want more detail or references contact me offline. I can send you what photos and links I have
However Russian modelling magazines depict wagons in bauxite red on ovvasion
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lucky me to find a fellow sufferer ;)
I'll surely contact you, thank you very much
it is elnightening to find out that it is not due to poor research that I couldn't find much
so, colour marking for passenger car classes is fairly common in period 1b and 2
bauxite red would be the same colour as the DRG in germany
so either it was copied or it is because the colour pigment was necesary for some reason
buff and tan is interesing
thank you very much
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you can try it here too, thousands of pics of old (a bit) and modern (a lot) stuff.
http://www.train-photo.ru
especially the engines:
http://www.train-photo.ru/categories.php?cat_id=7&sessionid=e178f04554efe0f4b6f69b2c0ced6690
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спасибо
do you know anything about the Tsar's train(s) ??
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пожалуйста
some nice infos about:
http://www.petervestnik.ru/index.php?newsid=174
are you able to read russian?
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подмога
I can't read russian....
could you please link me to the old trains....
yes, the steam engines
well, the colurful painting was usually only at delivery or on special anniversaries (or museum as in this case)
the work livery was black with the wheels etc in red or green against rust
later also in black - so more something for luxury trains, which from the streamline era on could be enameled
Ha! found something
terrace carriage from the Tsar's train:
http://www.deutsches-museum.de/it/biblioteca/unsere-schaetze/technikgeschichte/eisenbahnbilder/terassenwagen/
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more to the colours of the Tzar's train - dark blue, with golden edges, roof - light grey, waggon undercarriage - black with some gold on the edges, window frames - teak wood, between the windows - the famous russian two-headed eagles.
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yes
very fruitful thread
we are getting closer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borki_train_disaster
thank you
any pics on the above ::)
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finally found a pic of the waggon (unfortunately only a small one) and some of the interior.
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you are a god!
we get into railway fever here ;)
check out the old picture I posted
more my version, actually the same but with windows and not curtains ;)
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The one on the old pic is very nice but looks to me a bit too antiquated for the 1900-1917, even with windows.
and more pics..
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surely
but you have to keep in mind that royal trains were used for propaganda too
so even when new carriages were bought, the old ones were still used, of course not for long journeys in winter (as is reported for the british royal train)
so let's see
the old pic is from around 1875 or earlier I guess
(imagine a nice trip from petrograd to moscow or zarskoye selo in the hot summer, people in petrograd throwing their hats in the air on departure, the Romanows waving on route to the peasants in the field, who in turn drop on their knees :))
then came the newer train on your pics and on the accident pics
clearly two types, one with these "chimneys" (russian?), and pullmans
then came the accident 1888
and the the expensive german carriages from 1897
history in a pocket
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of course, it's imaginable, the Nicholas II had the biggest royal train pool of the world, altogether 4 or 5 trains. The two of them (most modern) were the train with 10 waggons built in Germany 1896-1897 (for the Russia travels, see the waggons on the pic above) and another one with 11 waggons built 1894 also in Germany (especially for Europe, probable exactly the russian version but for the smaller european gauge).
The "chimneys" train was built in Russia indeed. It's like the crushed train, 1851 model, I guess it was built some years later.
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and another nice waggon of the Nicholas' II train, the garage..
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wow
a simple coach with custom doors
I would have expected a flatcar...
yes, I read that the Romanovs had quite a collection of automobiles
and I aquired a few Yesteryears for that
but their colouring irritates me
I am sure there must be some pictures on the original colours somewhere
does someone know?
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Woah, there's some interesting stuff in here. How did I miss this yesterday?
I don't have the slightest clue about colour photos of their automobiles though. It seems my google-fu has failed on the subject as well. All I can find are family photos and pictures of a similar bunch of skulls...
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another nice russian carriage..a church..
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wow
thx
I knew the picture from a book, but couldn't find it online
only underlines the importance of railwas in russia ;)
maybe I could use one of my Tsar carriages as substitute....
it seems according to the othodox rite the mass would be held outdoors and the carriage would be the choir - then there would have to be an iconostasis in the vestibule
wonder whether they would have relics with them...
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Transsiberian train, but I have no idea about scale :)
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amazing
this must be some comemmorative minute model
the pic is very interesting
judging by the loco it must be the opening train from 1891 (4-6-0 '4t)
the coaches look extremely interesting
which I had a more detailed picture
funny that the famous transsiberian or the orient express used to be rather short compositions
would you think the finishing car is a dining car or the staff car?
or where would the staff been accomodated? in the front combo?
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Judging from the picture I would say the cars are roughly a tad shorter than two inches long each. That egg looks interesting though. It must have a music box in it or something judging from what appears to be a wind-up tab.
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It´s the famous "Transsiberian Fabergé Egg": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Siberian_Railway_%28Faberg%C3%A9_egg%29. The key is for winding up the train.
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no way!!!?
we should post it in workbench and create an honorific account "Faberge"
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My peasantry shows itself once again for not knowing of flashy, expensive exuberance. It does look rather interesting though.
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Judging from the picture I would say the cars are roughly a tad shorter than two inches long each. That egg looks interesting though. It must have a music box in it or something judging from what appears to be a wind-up tab.
what's going on inside it... :)
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My peasantry shows itself once again for not knowing of flashy, expensive exuberance. It does look rather interesting though.
now, now batko, not too much modesty
you perhaps remeber the 007 "octopussy", in which the Faberge eggs were a major plot element??
this is how I first got to know about them
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now, now batko, not too much modesty
you perhaps remeber the 007 "octopussy", in which the Faberge eggs were a major plot element??
this is how I first got to know about them
Oh crap! You're right. Man, I have not seen that movie in ages. I miss back when this one movie channel on the TV always ran 007 movie marathons, the whole series of films one after the other... Which reminds me. Our video rental place has all of them on dvd too. Wish it was in the form of dvd collections rather than each movie separate. It will cost a small fortune to rent them all and refresh me memory.
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we do have a public library here which even rents DvD very cheap
you maybe too?
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we do have a public library here which even rents DvD very cheap
you maybe too?
Yeah, ours too. Don't think they would have 007 though. But what do I know? I usually just get History Bites from their movie selection.
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Not quite a railway fan and at all not knowing anything about railways I would like to add a small answer in some question former user has posted:
The use of bauxite red colour might was just a copy, but a very interesting copy for the following reason:
bauxite ore (and hence bauxite pigment) prior to WW2 was regarded as a very poor iron ore (since it contains can have an average percentage of iron of about 5%). Being cheap, bauxite powder used to be used as a pigment. However, it has perfect anti rust properties, so, offered higher protection in cold and humid areas like north europe and vast Russia/Siberia.
Just a tip of information: bauxite became a strategic ore when the demand for aluminium increased due to the production of lighter weighted planes.
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thankk You sir
I had kind of suspected that myself, but cant understand the need to paint wooden wagons red
however bauxite might have emerged as pigment from the time they stareted to make steel ones, and then possibly painted all red
who knows
thanks again
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The reasons to paint wagons is to preserve the wood, the same reason garden fences are painted.
In the UK they tended to be red oxide or grey lead type colours.
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I was told so
red oxide is actually the "bauxite red", the main pigment being iron oxide
they would weather to a dark brownish red
is iron oxide suitable for preserving wood?
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Any covering that seals wood and prevents water getting to it will help preserve it.
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sure
but Iron Oxide is a pigment
to seal wood You need something.... else, the binder of the iron oxide paint
otherwise it's only a powder
the trick with the iron oxide on steel is that it is then already covered with rust, so it won't rust anymore
anyway, they painted the wooden waggons red too, so red it is
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I was told so
red oxide is actually the "bauxite red", the main pigment being iron oxide
they would weather to a dark brownish red
is iron oxide suitable for preserving wood?
In the US the ferrous oxide was the primary indredient used in the paint for 19th century wooden barns, so much so the color here is called "Barn Red".
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now that is interesting again, thank You
getting closer...
here we go:
"Farmers added ferrous oxide, otherwise known as rust, to the oil mixture. Rust was plentiful on farms and is a poison to many fungi, including mold and moss, which were known to grow on barns. These fungi would trap moisture in the wood, increasing decay. "
this iron oxide is good for everything apparently
maybe also against tobacco chew stains ;)
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In the US the ferrous oxide was the primary indredient used in the paint for 19th century wooden barns, so much so the color here is called "Barn Red".
I visited Falun in Sweden some years ago. There is an iron ore mine that supplies the entire country with iron oxide pigments for the "Falun Red" paint the Swedes use to paint their wooden houses for centuries. This should be proof enough...
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wasn't about the proof, was about the context
and I did not know about the fungicide aspect
thought swedes would fancy red houses....
but there is another context here, namely the availability of a cheap bauxite mud as industrial by-product
I am always interested how many thing come together to one aspect - in this case, red freight cars (and barns and swedish houses)
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I'll give some basics about the paints and pigments. By all means it is not an authoritative account since coating is a science by itself. Sorry if I take much of your time.
In order to preserve something you need a pigment which doesnot react with the rusting agent:
Hence, in order to preserve metals for water and air you need a pigment which is already oxidised. Thus iron oxide, lead oxide, zinc oxide etc (also known as "minium") is a good anti rusting media. The best for iron is lead oxides. Due to health issues lead is banned and so they changed and nowdays they use (at a higher cost) zinc phosphate.
For the preservesion of the wood, the paint should contain poisons (toxic substances) able to kill pests, worms, fungi and microorganisms. Thus the use of copper, copper oxide and copper sulphate plus other substances. That is why period ships used copper sheets.
The main factor was cost and availability of raw materials.
Colours: Iron oxides are lemon yellow and dark red/terracotta, lead oxide is a bright orange colour, zinc oxide and zinc phosphate are whites (as most of the additives in the paint like calcium carbonate, barium sulphate, talc etc etc), copper oxides are mostly green, copper sulphate is a mid blue. The carrier (linseed oil) used at the time ensured water insolubility of the paint.
Usually if they had to preseve wooden and metallic structures used in the trains, they treated first with some of the above and then paint them over with the desired colour.
So, reds etc were more usually used.
BTW some of the above are used for the making of our model colours, though recently they tend to use some non toxic materials mostly organic pigments and new binders like acrylic resins, which although they are water soluble they dry as waterproof.
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thank You very much
don't forget "schweinfurter Grün" which was used extensively to paint bridges and street lamps, but is banned today because it is highly poisonous
is it true that lead oxide weathers to a dark brown?
I guess the Golden Gate bridge is not painted in lead oxide any more?