Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Topic started by: Robanes on April 05, 2021, 02:54:31 PM
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Hi there. Been lurking for a while. Thought I'd share some images of the early days of a book-based approach to Middle-earth wargaming. Starting with Mordor first, with Gondor to follow.
The rider was robed all in black, and black was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith but a living man.
(https://i.imgur.com/VPZ73RB.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/dRk1ZgP.jpg)
Okay, this isn't strictly meant to be the Mouth (hence no skull face on his horse) but more a generic "Dark Lieutenant" like the Mouth, perhaps the "great cavalry of horsemen" that Frodo saw leaving the Dead City at the head of the Black Captain's army, or maybe (controversially) Gothmog of Morgul: evil Men in service of Mordor acting as deputies for Sauron and the Ringwraiths. This guy is all Fireforge Games mounted sergeant and foot knight parts, if I recall correctly.
Speaking of Ringwraiths:
"A power was there that we have not felt before. Some said that it could be seen, like a great black horseman, a dark shadow under the moon."
(https://i.imgur.com/7I2f79W.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/rJez4ai.jpg)
One of the Nine other than the Lord of the Nazgûl and the Black Easterling. One of the unnamed Ringwraiths commanding a host from Mordor. This guy is also Fireforge mounted sergeant parts with the empty hood from the Mantic Kings of War skeleton command sprue.
And the very first members of the actual rank and file:
...small black figures in rank upon rank, marching swiftly and silently, passing outwards in an endless stream.
(https://i.imgur.com/ncjKBEF.jpg)
Oathmark Goblin Infantry, as is probably obvious. Horns snipped off a few helmets. I want my orcs to look drab, like they were each handed by the quartermaster a mass-produced helm, crude shirt of mail, and some weapons, and sent on their way. They need shields, which I should probably do next.
Here's everyone together:
(https://i.imgur.com/vxRnJLg.jpg)
No idea what rules I am going to use these guys with. I like Dragon Rampant, but find it too generic for the flavour I want for this project. I've tried also making custom lists for Age of Fantasy Regiments using their Patreon points calculator but I dislike the lack of command and control rules and the magic system I think struggles to convey that subtle Tolkien vision of magic. Not sure what to use.
Anyway, hello again, I hope this is of interest to someone, apologies for lurking for so long without posting, and I hope to speak up more now!
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A great first post - welcome to LAF.
I look forward to watching your progress with interest :)
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I love the work you have done so far. If my wife was not such a fan of the Peter Jackson/Weta/GW aesthetic I would aim for a similar look to what you have done.
For games, we use GW‘s Middle Earth Strategy Battle Games Battle Companies but I have been thinking of trying Dux Arda as I am a fan of games by Too Fat Lardies.
https://sbminisguy.wordpress.com/2020/04/11/dux-arda-full-faction-book-cards-for-wargaming-middle-earth-with-dux-britanniarum/
Maybe that will suit your needs?
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They look great! That Fireforge head is perfect for the Mouth of Sauron. The ringwraith is a great conversion too.
No idea what rules I am going to use these guys with. I like Dragon Rampant, but find it too generic for the flavour I want for this project. I've tried also making custom lists for Age of Fantasy Regiments using their Patreon points calculator but I dislike the lack of command and control rules and the magic system I think struggles to convey that subtle Tolkien vision of magic. Not sure what to use.
It's maybe an off-the-wall suggestion, but I've had a lot of fun using Hordes of the Things with individually based miniatures. You can treat each figure as an 'element' (multi-based in normal HotT) and simply fight battles with huge commands without changing any of the rules. If you assume a figure scale of (say) 1:100 or even 1:1,000, you can get some pretty dramatic battles going. And the rules work fine as written so long as all the elements have the same (or similar) frontage. It is generic, but it's very easy to build flavourful armies that operate very differently from each other.
The Dux Arda thing looks interesting, but for those taking a book-based approach, it's odd that the orcish armies of Isengard and Mordor seem to have the Uruks only as a rare elite. The books make it fairly clear that most of the soldier-orcs in those armies are Uruks - maybe (almost) all in the case of Isengard. After all, Sauron's been churning out Uruks for hundreds of years by the time of the War of the Ring, and they formed entire armies on their own.
Also, the Isengard army is entirely missing the half-orcs - a fairly glaring omission given their pivotal role at the Battle of the Fords of the Isen and their involvement at Helm's Deep! Given that and the presence of "Uruk-hai berserkers", the rules seem to be much more inspired by the films than the books. Another oddity is the presence of warg-riders in the Mordor forces. Those aren't mentioned by Tolkien; he speculates at one point that warg-riding was an innovation of Saruman's.
Anyway, none of the above pedantry is a comment on the quality of the game, obviously! But I always think that there are so many riches in Tolkien's descriptions of the armies of Middle Earth that there's no need to add in other stuff.
Really looking forward to seeing how this project develops!
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Nice!! Welcome to Middle Earth! I do use Dux Arda, and will get some battle reports together in the coming months. Cool to see interest in ME gaming picking up again!
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Great job on your army, so far. I like your take on middle-earth forces!
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Looks great!
Warlords of Erehwon and Middle Earth Strategy Battle Game are both great for middle earth, depends what kind of game you like playing.
Erehwon definitely feels more like dragon rampant, but with more tactical depth and characterful armies, tonnes of special rules without getting bogged down constantly checking the rules, and a points calculator on Rick Priestly’s blog (called This Gaming Life) if you wanted to adapt existing profiles or create your own. I also checked out Age of Fantasy and prefer Erehwon by a country mile!
SBG feels like the movies, and can be great for representing individual heroics, but loses some of the realistic tactical choices, mainly due to cavalry being able to mow down infantry, even those armed with pikes lol
If those two don’t quite get it for you, I have also got a fantasy set of rules that adapt my wars of the roses rules (I Shall Call You My Lord) called Merlin Rouge. They’re free but no pressure to check them out, I only use them myself to play fantasy themed wars of the roses games rather than generic fantasy :)
Hope this ramble helps!
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No idea what rules I am going to use these guys with. I like Dragon Rampant, but find it too generic for the flavour I want for this project. I've tried also making custom lists for Age of Fantasy Regiments using their Patreon points calculator but I dislike the lack of command and control rules and the magic system I think struggles to convey that subtle Tolkien vision of magic. Not sure what to use.
Anyway, hello again, I hope this is of interest to someone, apologies for lurking for so long without posting, and I hope to speak up more now!
"Magic" in Tolkien's view was always something for the bad guys. The reason that what Galadriel and others do is more subtle is simply because it's not the evil that Arda being "Morgoth's Ring" allows. Here's an interesting article in Tor about it. (https://www.tor.com/2020/12/03/tolkiens-dark-lords-sauron-dark-magic-and-middle-earths-enduring-melkor-ingredient/comment-page-1/)
With that in mind, maybe Dragon Rampant with rules from the Crusader States book?
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Thanks all for the warm welcome and the various suggestions.
As you may be able to tell, I'm a die-hard book purist; I first read The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings back in 2000, so just squeaked in before the films. I used to play a lot of GW's LotR SBG as a kid but these days I'm just too close to the books for anything else to scratch the itch — I did a PhD on Tolkien! (I have a soft spot for the 1981 BBC radio adaptation though)
Erehwon definitely feels more like dragon rampant, but with more tactical depth and characterful armies, tonnes of special rules without getting bogged down constantly checking the rules, and a points calculator on Rick Priestly’s blog (called This Gaming Life) if you wanted to adapt existing profiles or create your own. I also checked out Age of Fantasy and prefer Erehwon by a country mile!
Thanks, I have been thinking of giving Erewhon a look for inspiration if nothing else. I used to play a lot of Bolt Action but later moved on to Chain of Command.
It's maybe an off-the-wall suggestion, but I've had a lot of fun using Hordes of the Things with individually based miniatures.
Thanks for the reminder. A couple of the guys at my club have also made this suggestion and it always slips my mind. I need to give the rules a proper read-through.
The Dux Arda thing looks interesting, but for those taking a book-based approach, it's odd that the orcish armies of Isengard and Mordor seem to have the Uruks only as a rare elite.
Funnily enough, Dux Arda was part of the inspiration for this project — but I too found that while it was a great detailed view of Middle-earth, yes it didn't quite gel enough with my readings for my taste to use straight out of the box. Easterling "Cataphracts" put me off; pretty sure they're a Games Workshop invention. I don't see the Easterlings as nearly as "Persian" or "Byzantine" as some do; more like Attila the Hun's horsemen sweeping across Europe! Anyway it's a cool project, and I do like TooFatLardies rules, but the never-ending quest for the perfect rule set goes on.
I agree about Orcs too incidentally; most of Sauron's armies should be uruks aka Soldier-Orcs who were, nonetheless, still short of stature, mediocre in battle, easily dismayed and most effective when attacking at speed while outnumbering their enemies. I do intend this project to make some specific attempt to represent a unit along the lines of the "heavy-armed uruks from Barad-dûr" that collided with the Durthang line, but I don't expect them to be particularly exceptional soldiers, just better equipped and maybe better disciplined. I'd intend them to be suggestive of how, according to Morgoth's Ring, Sauron had "trained armies" who would "sacrifice themselves without hesitation at his command". It's a couple of pages earlier that Tolkien also interestingly observed of Orcs that "many were by training as tough as Dwarves in enduring hardship."
"Magic" in Tolkien's view was always something for the bad guys. The reason that what Galadriel and others do is more subtle is simply because it's not the evil that Arda being "Morgoth's Ring" allows.
Exactly. I would only want "good" magic to be Gandalf-esque boosting of spirits and warming of hearts, perceiving the lies of the Enemy and maybe the strength of will of great captains like Aragorn — very subtle. And for their own part "evil" magic would mostly be about keeping their forces attacking mindlessly, using shadow and darkness to hide things, and striking fear and unreasoning terror into their enemies. In some respects I actually think LotR SBG conveyed some of this reasonably well back in the day.
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I agree about Orcs too incidentally; most of Sauron's armies should be uruks aka Soldier-Orcs who were, nonetheless, still short of stature, mediocre in battle, easily dismayed and most effective when attacking at speed while outnumbering their enemies. I do intend this project to make some specific attempt to represent a unit along the lines of the "heavy-armed uruks from Barad-dûr" that collided with the Durthang line, but I don't expect them to be particularly exceptional soldiers, just better equipped and maybe better disciplined. I'd intend them to be suggestive of how, according to Morgoth's Ring, Sauron had "trained armies" who would "sacrifice themselves without hesitation at his command". It's a couple of pages earlier that Tolkien also interestingly observed of Orcs that "many were by training as tough as Dwarves in enduring hardship."
Yes! The thing about Orcs is that they're strong (for their size, at least), fast and tireless. But those qualities are offset by small stature, ill discipline and wanton brutality (not least to their fellows). At the Isen, it's the Man-sized half-orc axemen that are Saruman's shock troops, not the Uruk-hai.
That comparison with Dwarves is interesting; I've always thought that Uruks seem, through close reading of the books, to be roughly Dwarf-sized (see Gimli's comments at the Hornburg), with the smaller breeds being roughly Hobbit-sized (hence Sam and Frodo's ability to join the Durthang line). I also suspect that Tolkien assumed that his readers would infer that goblins (including the Uruk-hai) must be on the small side - he seems to take that for granted in one or two places.
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At the Isen, it's the Man-sized half-orc axemen that are Saruman's shock troops, not the Uruk-hai.
Yes indeed. I think when I get around to doing Isengard and Rohan, I will do the Uruk-hai as the better disciplined/more tactically versatile troops and the half-orcs/man-orcs/orc-men treacherous and vile as the brute force units.
That comparison with Dwarves is interesting; I've always thought that Uruks seem, through close reading of the books, to be roughly Dwarf-sized (see Gimli's comments at the Hornburg), with the smaller breeds being roughly Hobbit-sized (hence Sam and Frodo's ability to join the Durthang line). I also suspect that Tolkien assumed that his readers would infer that goblins (including the Uruk-hai) must be on the small side - he seems to take that for granted in one or two places.
Agreed. Snaga/slaves seem to have been rather diminutive and Uruks, I agree, dwarf-height on average; The Hobbit suggests this too I think. Later interpretations have rendered Orcs as huge brutes bigger than Men but as we know an Orc is extraordinary in Middle-earth for being "almost man-high".
Incidentally, Gimli's remarks about the Dunlendings being a bit big for him make me wish for a rule set that factored "stature" in as an element of a unit's profile somehow.
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Later interpretations have rendered Orcs as huge brutes bigger than Men but as we know an Orc is extraordinary in Middle-earth for being "almost man-high".
Part of this, I think, is a tendency for people to talk about "Orcs and Uruk-hai", which is not a construction that Tolkien uses. He generally refers to the Uruk-hai simply as "Orcs" (or "goblins"); the term "Uruk-ha" is hardly ever used by the narrator (and then only when Pippin is remembering his experience in "the clutches of the Uruk-hai", I think).
I'm not sure where that tendency comes from. The films have encouraged it, but I think it was around beforehand - possibly an over-systematising trend common to gamers! I think MERP and the like may have played a part too.
Oddly enough, Tolkien loves redundant doublings-up: "Orcs and wolf-riders", "goblins, hobgoblins and Orcs", etc. It's a kind of rhetorical trope of repetition. But "Orcs and Uruk-hai" isn't one of his, and it always rings false to me when I see it in print.
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Part of this, I think, is a tendency for people to talk about "Orcs and Uruk-hai", which is not a construction that Tolkien uses. He generally refers to the Uruk-hai simply as "Orcs" (or "goblins"); the term "Uruk-ha" is hardly ever used by the narrator (and then only when Pippin is remembering his experience in "the clutches of the Uruk-hai", I think).
Yes it seems that "uruk-hai" is almost exclusively a term they use for themselves, with the shorter "uruk" being otherwise used by the narrator. I would present Saruman's "fighting Uruk-hai" as being a bit different to the soldier-Orcs of Mordor: possibly faster (although not sure on that one), maybe a bit bigger, more man-like and less orc-like equipment, better discipline; they certainly seem to have a lot of martial pride and confidence in their abilities.
Incidentally, how do you read the pikemen that Saruman fielded at the Fords of Isen? Dunlendings or "orc-men"? Personally I've always been inclined towards the latter but the fact that he mentions half-orc axemen later suggests to me that maybe he meant the former.
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Really nicely painted models but the basing lets them down. You can clearly see the large mounting plate sitting on top of the base. Could do with being trimmed away or putty being used to blend it into the rest of the base.
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Yes it seems that "uruk-hai" is almost exclusively a term they use for themselves, with the shorter "uruk" being otherwise used by the narrator.
Yes - and there's a sense that "uruk" is a term the Hobbits learn during the story (from Gandalf, principally, and from Shagrat and Gorbag later). Oddly enough, the one time Shagrat and Gorbag use the term "uruks", it's being "translated" by the Ring. I wonder if Tolkien intended that they were actually saying "Uruk-hai". The fighting-orc's use of the term in "The Land of Shadow" (when speaking in the common tongue) seems to suggest that it's in common currency in Mordor, and Tolkien treats the terms as equivalent in his letters.
I would present Saruman's "fighting Uruk-hai" as being a bit different to the soldier-Orcs of Mordor: possibly faster (although not sure on that one), maybe a bit bigger, more man-like and less orc-like equipment, better discipline; they certainly seem to have a lot of martial pride and confidence in their abilities.
Yes, I think that's right. Eomer says that they're the worst sort. I'd note, though, that it's the Isengarder's equipment rather than their size that draws Aragorn's attention initially, and Ugluk and co. don't seem to be as big as the "huge" chieftain in Moria, who, we can infer, is a "black Uruk of Mordor".
The faster/hardier thing is presented as an open question by Tolkien, but I think we can detect a possible answer by piecing together bits of information from various texts. Tolkien sets out a tendency for Orcs to diminish over time:
Goblins they may be called, but in ancient days they were strong and fell.
This is just one of various quotes on the theme, I think. And we see their might being restored by fresh breeding programmes. We see the process in action in the Disaster of the Gladden Fields and the Appendices of The Lord of the Rings: almost all of the "great orcs" are killed (Second Age uruks, presumably!), but then in the Third Age, Sauron breeds "orcs of great size and strength" again and sends them out to sack Osgiliath and stiffen the garrisons of the Misty Mountains.
Given the centuries-long gap between Sauron's breeding of uruks in the Third Age and the appearance of Saruman's Uruk-hai, plus the info in Morgoth's Ring, we might infer that Saruman's orcs are bred to the same recipe as Sauron's/Melkor's (Morgoth's Ring pretty much tells us that), but are a fresher batch and thus less affected by the degeneration and diminishment that seems to affect Orcs over time (through breeding with smaller varieties, perhaps, or through the fact that the biggest sorts get killed off quickest in battle).
Certainly, Ugluk and Grishnakh are put in one basket, sizewise, and the Northerners in another, at the start of "The Uruk-hai". But they do seem to be somewhat differently shaped - with Grishnakh similar to Shagrat as well as his own followers, with their long arms (though Isengarders have those too - see "Helm's Deep"). The orcs call each other "ape" as an insult; we might infer that the older breeds become more ape-like as they degenerate - an idea in early sci-fi (e.g. The Time Machine) and pulp fiction that Tolkien would have been aware of.
So I think there's at least a hint that the Isengarders aren't so much "new and improved" as "more freshly made". Against that, of course, are Treebeard's comments and the general theme of Sarumannic improvisation. And - in real terms - the fact that Tolkien constantly changed his mind on the question of orcs!
Incidentally, how do you read the pikemen that Saruman fielded at the Fords of Isen? Dunlendings or "orc-men"? Personally I've always been inclined towards the latter but the fact that he mentions half-orc axemen later suggests to me that maybe he meant the former.
I've always read them as Dunlendings. Tolkien likes his historical echoes (Pelennor/Cautalanian Fields, etc.), and if the Dunlendings are the "Celtic Fringe" to the Anglo-Saxon-ish Rohirrim, then there's an echo of Scottish schiltrons and Welsh spearmen there.
The orc-men seem to be something special, so I think he'd have mentioned them if they were the ones brandishing pikes. There's a sense of improvisation, perhaps, about the defences; I don't get the sense that Tolkien thought of drilled pike squares or anything!
On the basing: have you tried Golden Pumice Gel (the coarse stuff)? It gives exactly the texture you have here, but it effortlessly covers up the join between base and mounting plate (it doesn't sink down as glue and sand does).
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Yep the bases were definitely a rush job. Something to remedy in the next update. I used to just blend the plate to the base before adding sand using impasto or something similar but I've been a bit lazy lately.
Yes - and there's a sense that "uruk" is a term the Hobbits learn during the story (from Gandalf, principally, and from Shagrat and Gorbag later). Oddly enough, the one time Shagrat and Gorbag use the term "uruks", it's being "translated" by the Ring. I wonder if Tolkien intended that they were actually saying "Uruk-hai". The fighting-orc's use of the term in "The Land of Shadow" (when speaking in the common tongue) seems to suggest that it's in common currency in Mordor, and Tolkien treats the terms as equivalent in his letters.
Yes I'm unsure what I'm going to use yet for mail-clad Isengarders. Possibly Gripping Beast minis, as with the Men of Gondor and Rohan done using Fireforge and Victrix figures I expect them to be a bit bigger. Speaking of:
it's the Isengarder's equipment rather than their size that draws Aragorn's attention initially, and Ugluk and co. don't seem to be as big as the "huge" chieftain in Moria, who, we can infer, is a "black Uruk of Mordor".
Yes I'm thinking of using Romans or something similar as the "body" of my Isengard Uruks, with lots of straight broad-bladed swords and man-appropriate helmets. Then there are half-Orc axemen to consider though, which I suppose might be better represented using Conquest Games' Normans. I find myself constantly running into a simple problem: not enough plastics of men in mail! At least, not fairly generic ones that don't scream out a particular culture. I might use Gripping Beast Vikings bodies with Oathmark parts as my "heavy Uruks" for Mordor as I understand they're a bit smaller.
And yes it does seem that "Great Orcs" were repeatedly bred through the Ages, although as that seems to be a fairly late idea I can't shake my image of Morgoth's Orcs being really rubbish (even relative to the heroes of the day). But that's mercifully outside the scope of this project which is firmly focused on the end of the Third Age. My planned armies are Mordor, Gondor, Isengard, Rohan, "Men of Darkness" (Rhûn, Harad, Khand, Umbar), Erebor & Dale, Lórien & Mirkwood, and Mountain Orcs. Obviously this is something I plan to dip in and out of over a long time; in fact, I started it over a year ago. And I'm using it to procrastinate over painting up a pike and shot army for my next club game so it's something to keep in the background for whenever the mood strikes.
As you say, Orcs vary wildly, so I'd like to avoid using the Oathmark Goblins outside of Mordor, at least as far as the bodies go, treating them as "baseline" Soldier-Orcs to which less-stooped Isengard Uruk-hai, half-Orcs, mountain Orcs, snaga and "almost man-high" bigger Mordor Orcs can be compared.
I've always read them as Dunlendings. Tolkien likes his historical echoes (Pelennor/Cautalanian Fields, etc.), and if the Dunlendings are the "Celtic Fringe" to the Anglo-Saxon-ish Rohirrim, then there's an echo of Scottish schiltrons and Welsh spearmen there.
You make a compelling argument. Something for me to consider for whenever Isengard comes around.
Assembled a couple of ranks of Orc archers today so hopefully will have some more pictures to share in due course.
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I am really enjoying this thread and where it is leading. Your figures choices seem pretty good, so cannot wait to see them kit-bashed and painted.
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Then there are half-Orc axemen to consider though, which I suppose might be better represented using Conquest Games' Normans. I find myself constantly running into a simple problem: not enough plastics of men in mail! At least, not fairly generic ones that don't scream out a particular culture.
I'd recommend the Victrix Vikings for the half-orc axemen. They're sufficiently tall and upright that they'll make (e.g.) the Gripping Beast Viking bodies look squat and subhuman in comparison. They've got very wild-looking faces as it is, so you could possibly 'convert' them simply through paintwork - or you could use orc heads. I think the Wargames Atlantic orc heads might work nicely.