Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Railway Wargaming => Topic started by: redzed on September 07, 2009, 10:12:06 PM
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Hello people,
Would you like to own one of these-
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa217/shaunyams/br52213tj2.jpg)
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa217/shaunyams/br52-web-r-l-drawing.jpg)
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa217/shaunyams/Locomotive_BR52-8177-9.jpg)
We are putting together a small group of 'Fundholders' to commission and cast a BR-52 Loco & tender in 1/56 scale, to be used with S scale track.
There's a You Tube Link HERE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmuIuLbMJ0U)
It's a big bit of kit, about 60cm long.
are you interested?
Initially we want 10-12 fundholders paying £100 each, all Fundholders will have equal ownership and an equal voice.
We have a good quote for the masters of £800-ish, the moulding will cost about £300.
Any later sales of the train will be divided equally between the Fundholders (We don't expect a lot but you will end up with an awesome looking bit of kit).
We aren't looking at mass production, but the idea is that the cash from anyone buying one (after the Fundholders are agreed, and production commences,) goes towards reimbursing part of the initial costs of the Fundholders.
As fundholders everyone will receive exactly the same say in all aspects and own exactly the same amount of the master and moulds.
No money will be held by anyone person (everyone will be responsible for paying their share to the individual contractor (the contractors being- the pattern maker, moulding costs, casting & p&p costs). There may be a surcharge for non-UK residents due to the weight.
Anyone may apply by contacting us (use the PM function).
The group as whole can decide whom may become a Fundholder.
If you are under 18 you may not join. (sorry it's the law)
The only plan is to get one BR-52 cast for each fundholder.
The first part of that plan is to get the 'fundholders'.
After that we we'll need a mini-forum to discuss all aspects of the project. Then we will commission the pattern maker.
The second part of the plan is to get the moulds made-
It should be easy enough, but with a mini-forum we'll be able to get lots of views on the matter.
Then to get the train cast and shipped to the Fundholders.
The overall plan is for each fundholder to get a bespoke bit of kit for £100, anything else is a bonus.
It's early days at the moment so it may all come crashing down.
We are looking at Salute 2010 for the completion.
Fundholders so far are - Akula, Cyano, Tardis (Stronghold Miniatures), Lee (MCS Miniatures) Alex Bews (Witch Hunter, LAF), redzed.
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Sooo... that´s the WW2 "Kriegslokomotive" variant of the BR52 they´re talking about? Oh boy. Talk about tempting.
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Good Luck with the Project. I do hope we see this model in all its glory on the gaming table in months to come.
Best wishes for the adventure.
Helen
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Wow.
I have no earthly use for one of those - but I do love the entrepreneurial syndicate idea, with (at worst) a great and unique model in your possession, and at best, a big fat profit!
Sadly though, I don't do trains.
Come up with a different product, and I could well be in ;)
(Sorry, that doesn't help much, does it? But I'm with you in spirit... )
Good luck with the choo-choo though. Brilliant scheme.
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Quick update-
Potter 666 is now on the team :D
Lon from Brigade Games is also signed up :D
Yay 0:)
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what is that?
my gawd....
I'm blinded......
awe-some...
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Here you are RedZed
(http://i.ebayimg.com/03/!BVqJPW!CGk~$(KGrHgoH-DIEjlLlul7eBKTmRs1jI!~~_12.JPG)
Tillig 02271 Dampflok BR52 DB Ep.III Spur TT
European TT so 1/120.... just about passable for 15mm wargaming and only EUR 189,00
so the 1/56 one seems like a bargain.
nice tank transporter too
(http://i.ebayimg.com/16/!BPe2DVgBWk~$(KGrHgoH-CoEjlLl)2U9BJz6D6yN5w~~_12.JPG)
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I'll join in. I love these trains. Have a few from Märklin in HO scale, but what a brute that would be in 1/56.
Oh, and I'm in the Netherlands, but that should not be a problem I guess.
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I would have some questions
mybe not that bad tp post them here, so You don't have to repeat the answers
how firm is the decision on the type of the loco?
because, a kriegslokomotive is of course usable only in WWII and later
but there are many of similar configuration built earlier which would be usable for more periods and more fractions
will there be a limit for the nr. of owners? (upper/lower?)
I would be interested, but not with this type
so therefore need to know how open a debate is actually?
namely is this a project
"we want this loco"
or "we want a loco, preferably this configuration"
because a wider period use would open the interest of more wargamers, maybe?
there is also the question of the wheels
from my experience, I would rather prefer wheels from a manufacturer, cause resin/lead wheels tend to be problematic when it comes to rolling
and I would always advise a loco which can roll on the tracks and does not have to be dragged along (heavy resin, fine details that can break, etc)
there is also the question if buying from a manufacturerer is not cheaper then master/moulds/resin/defective casts
using available parts in general (yes I know, the scale is not regular, but there might be parts usable)
might also lower the costs
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I think RedZed would like a BR-52 locos for WW2 gaming, and he is trying to find other people that would like one.
Getting free running commercial wheels in S gauge will be difficult.
If you have another loco that you would like, this board would be a great place to open up discussion in new threads.. perhaps one for each loco.
Its a great idea - a 10 club - one for a train suitable for Burma... one for VBCW... WW1.. ;-)
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I understand, and I did not want to post off topic, but I think that a little wider perspective might improve the chance of the project getting started
there are some "decapods" of similar appearance which entered service around 1917 and were surely used in WWII
a BR52 Kriegslokomotive could only be used in WWII and after, and on the german side
whereas an earlier loco could be used in WWI, Interwar and WWII, and that on many sides, since there was export and war reparations, captured locos etc
also there might be the option of using the running gear for armoured or streamlined versions as well, or simply to sell the running gear to scratchbuilders - thus creating cost lowering synergy effects
I hope that the increase in "target market" is obvious
so my questions were not entirely egoistic ;)
additionally, the gauge of standard railway modelling wheels is not that important, since there were many different diameters depending on the loco type
I converted two gauge 0 locos with wheels from gauges HO, G and I
the BR 52 could therefore run on smaller gauge 0, big HO gauge or very small gauge I wheels, which are available as spare parts and could be negotiated in larger quantities from a manufacturer - there are many sizes (remeber, for 10 locos only it is 100 wheels!)
I don't know the waste rate in casting resin, but I heard it to be rather high and resin very expensive...
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how firm is the decision on the type of the loco?
ten people have sighed-up so far, so the decision is fairly certain.
because, a kriegslokomotive is of course usable only in WWII and later
I'll be using mine for RCW-onwards and I know other members will be using the loco for other periods and other countries.
Mine will also be used for Pulp games set in 1930's America.
will there be a limit for the nr. of owners? (upper/lower?)
no limit, but anyone who isn't a Fundholder at the start can't join later.
Once the commission has started the book will be closed.
there is also the question of the wheels
the train us a gaming piece first and a model second. No parts will move and a lot of the detail will be cast on so they don't 'ping off' when used in games.
A bespoke gaming piece is what is required more than a true model.
S track scale was chosen as it's the size being widely used by gamers.
I don't know the waste rate in casting resin, but I heard it to be rather high and resin very expensive..
we will be using the industries best mouldmakers and casters, we won't be skimping on these costs.
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Hmm a Prussian G 12 built between 1917–1924 and retired after WW2 but continued to be used well into the 60's
Big Loco... 2-10-0... it might fit Reds requirements.
Used by the Imperial Railways in Alsace-Lorraine, the Grand Duchy of Baden State Railway, the Royal Saxon State Railways, the Royal Württemberg State Railways, Baden, the Prussian state railways, the Deutsche Reichsbahn.
Poland, Austria, Soviet Union in 1949 and Luxembourg
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/42/58_1261-5_1.jpg/300px-58_1261-5_1.jpg)
I believe things are up for discussion between "fund holders".... do you have scale plans?
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see what I mean....
so, if the question of the type is being reopened, I'd consider joining in
you did not ask me about scale plans did you?
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I believe things are up for discussion between "fund holders".... do you have scale plans?
no plans, if you'd like to be a Fundholder please feel free to join
The discussion on exactly what will be built will be decided by the fundholdrers, all of the fundholders so far want a BR-52, otherewise they wouldn't of joined, however , if you join you can ask for a change, but you do have to abide by the majority decision. :)
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you did not ask me about scale plans did you?
As red has done a lot of work on this already including finding drawings that a model maker can work from, I think any discussion to alter which prototype between fundholders should be backed up with enough information from the proposer to make a model.
So yes.... if you have scale plans of the proposed or any alternates and you want to be a fundholder it would be great.
PS I would be involved, but I have just had my first wages for 12 months and there are other things my bank manager says I must spend it on.
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just to avoid possible misunderstandings
I wish you good luck with the project, it is certainly a magnificent thing
I may have taken a different approach, but I don't know, since You weren't very detailed
I started my railway wargaming project over a year ago with a friend
from the very start it was clear that it would be quite expensive
after careful consideration on what to do with it (size of loaded vehicles and artillery peices for example) and the availabality of material we decided on the gauge (0)
then it was clear that the models were meant to be used in every possible manner:
scenery, moving civil trains, moving military trains, scenario objective, train accident site , whatever
AND
in every possible period, so a broad period decision was fundamental
(I am not very peculiar about extreme accuracy, however a Kriegslokomotive in WWI or 1930 America is.... well not because of the appearance, but because of the technological implications)
regarding Your BR-52 Project - the yield would be a superdetailed, magnificent model, a locomotive, to go with 22 mm gauge
fine - use it how?
freight cars, passenger cars, gun cars??? - also to be cast in 28mm?
and then, a rather heavy resin model, supported by (somehow brittle in any quality) 12 Resin wheels, which have contact on 12 tiny spots with the rail, and are spoked wheels
and then, if it is to move in gaming terms, has to be picked up every time and reset on the track?
or will it have turning axles for the resin wheels? a heavy resin loco rolling on very delicate resin wheels?
and then - probably the waggons too - also pick up every single one and reset it on the track? with loaded models and vehicles?
My point is that I spent a lot of brain substance and time with the conception of my project in order to maximize the yield of something very expensive and time consuming (it has to painted too, damn ;))
and that the result will be trains which roll on their tracks (which I was able to buy cheaply on ebay, complete with switches - no point in trying to get affordable S-gauge tracks in germany and Company B offers only track without switches - How am I going to make a train station without switches?)
which have converted (as good as I can) Locos and Waggons
and I will be able to use them from 1890 to 1945, anywhere in Europe and on some other continents as well - without having to think a second about authenticity
this is my approach, I find it very tempting to join the project, but with this status quo I will have to regauge on 0 (which is not a problem at all, I've done this before) at least, and I am still considering it, because the model will be amazing
this is the reason I asked, and not to disqualify your project
if You have considered all the points I mentioned above, You did not communicate them -
which information I need in order to make a decision if I am to join or not
Your absolutely ingenious and tempting project (please don't take this for irony, I mean it)
cause what I certainly do not need is a locomotive I simply display behind glass or on the tabletop -
I can't afford that
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So yes.... if you have scale plans of the proposed or any alternates and you want to be a fundholder it would be great.
PS I would be involved, but I have just had my first wages for 12 months and there are other things my bank manager says I must spend it on.
same with me ;)
sorry, I was busy writing a lot
scale plans are not the point - the railway hobby is so huge, you can have almost any scale plans you like
I don't have a shelve full of blueprints at home, sorry, I would have to do some research - but it's not that complicated
but if the type is to be reconsidered - which is not my decision - the Types have to be considered first by pictures or on the model in a shop (nothing compares to having the model in hand)
and then I will be more than happy to plant my ass in front of the desk (well, actually leave it where it is) and do as much research as is needed (cause I already done this kind of thing for my project)
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I'd like to welcome Darkoath as a new fundholder :)
anyone can join and if you have any questions no matter how minor please feel free to PM me :)
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The models in the first picture show the Austrian production models with the typical "Steifrahmentender" of the WLF "Wiener Lokomotivfabrik Florisdorf".
The drawings below show the usually used "Wannentender" with bogies. There had also been condensation tenders in use for long range drives through Russia.
I thought you might be interested in some pictures I took this year during easter holidays in "Deutsches Dampflokmuseum" in Kulmbach (upper Franconia/Bavaria):
The pictures show the Kriegslokomotive BR 52 with "Al" marking for her home in Hamburg-Altona. It´s painted in grey livery like the main series of Kriegslokomotiven. This one has the usual "Wannentender" (tub-tender):
(http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll111/wamasaka/Kulmbach2009029.jpg)
(http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll111/wamasaka/Kulmbach2009031.jpg)
(http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll111/wamasaka/Kulmbach2009032.jpg)
(http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll111/wamasaka/Kulmbach2009033.jpg)
(http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll111/wamasaka/Kulmbach2009039.jpg)
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Thanks for the pics Michi :)
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Dave T and Jeff Trnka (JTFM Enterprises) have joined us now :)
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congratulations
this is very interesting
since your project is starting off so well with so many people interested, I wonder if "us" interested in an earlier period should not attempt the same
I personally will wait until I hear more about Your experiences
please keep us informed
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I am supposed to vote on something but what? ???
Here's a thought as well to get someone to make this model by hand is going to be a nightmare the person will either under-quote and or over quote and or loose interest this is a huge model... The engineered detail required would require someone with milling skills as well which would almost require a shop making the thing out of plastic card I feel is "NOT the way fwd":
May I suggest that you have it drawn in either solidworks or rhino3d and then rapid prototype the masters on an objet machine now if we are really clever why not have the moulds made at the same time using the same process so now you go directly to molding and NO master required because you are reversing the master (one just has to think about the moulding process and how many parts you want to make this thing):
The days of hand made stuff are numbered use a machine its faster cheaper and one gets better detail plus you can use the same drawings to make it any scale you want you can even use the same drawing to have the wheels cnc'd in brass just make sure you get the .STL files
Go to the rhino site one can find contractors there that do this everyday and the price is far less than what you would expect
Just my two cents worth
And in closing why not some other sort of monster like a Mallet as 0-8-8-0 I think is the short form now thats a monster and very meaty and covers more periods
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apparently the decision on the type has been made and all who have joined in want this loco...
3D machine moulding seems appropriate, but is enormously more expensive I guess
so....
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the cost of the prototype "printing" would be more than the cost the model maker has quoted, ( going on the size about 4 times the price) there is then the additional expenses of draughting the CAD plans.
From experience, CAD stuff is quicker and cheaper when alterations need to be done, or things need to be done in multiple scales. For a one off model from a skilled professional model maker, I doubt the draughts person would charge less than the model maker.
many model makers have milling machines for use at home.
PS if you need to vote look at the child board.
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how's the project progressing?
thought this might be useful to post