Lead Adventure Forum

Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: Doom Beard 78 on May 03, 2021, 09:29:28 AM

Title: Macedonian figures
Post by: Doom Beard 78 on May 03, 2021, 09:29:28 AM
After many years of painting away I finished off the last of my unpainted Greek/Macedonian figures.  Looking at my shelves there are around 800 painted infantry and around 120 cavalry, which I think is enough. Here are the final figures

1: Polemarch Theurophoroi
2: Mounted Greek musician and unit he accompanies
3: Empire elephant, nicknamed "Oakie" for reasons I won't go into

These figures are something of my swan song as regards Ancients
Title: Re: Macedonian figures
Post by: Bloggard on May 03, 2021, 10:41:01 AM
they look great.
Title: Re: Macedonian figures
Post by: trev on May 03, 2021, 11:14:10 AM
They look really good.  Look forward to seeing them action. 
Title: Re: Macedonian figures
Post by: Doom Beard 78 on May 03, 2021, 02:12:37 PM
Thanks guys : time for pikemen. Including a unit wearing trousers - I had initially thought of painting diamond shaped Persian style patterns but recoiled when I realised that there were  48 figures and that much of the patterns would be lost when the unit was  on the table
Title: Re: Macedonian figures
Post by: Doom Beard 78 on May 03, 2021, 02:16:43 PM
Spartan cavalry
Title: Re: Macedonian figures
Post by: Fremitus Borealis on May 03, 2021, 04:45:46 PM
Thanks guys : time for pikemen. Including a unit wearing trousers - I had initially thought of painting diamond shaped Persian style patterns but recoiled when I realised that there 48 figures and that much of the patterns would be lost when the unit was the on the table

Lovely painting! I hear you about weighing the pros and cons of detail on huge Macedonian units. But I love the variation you work in! I try to do the same in my units.
Title: Re: Macedonian figures
Post by: Doom Beard 78 on May 03, 2021, 08:32:47 PM
I wonder if the actual Macedonian pikeme would have been as colourfull as I made them, or if they would have been in bleached linen
Title: Re: Macedonian figures
Post by: Easy E on May 03, 2021, 09:00:07 PM
Impressive looking force.
Title: Re: Macedonian figures
Post by: Fremitus Borealis on May 03, 2021, 11:33:07 PM
I wonder if the actual Macedonian pikeme would have been as colourfull as I made them, or if they would have been in bleached linen

I think about that myself. If nothing else, I think it's unreasonable to assume they'd all be identical in all but the most "elite" of units. But I think we have enough lapidary and fresco evidence that there were a variety of colors available. I guess I do try to get more "ornate" with Eastern units and more solid-colors for the Western ones.
Title: Re: Macedonian figures
Post by: Doom Beard 78 on May 04, 2021, 10:01:17 AM
They look really good.  Look forward to seeing them action. -

We just need to find a set of playable big battle Ancients rules. And while we are at it, we can quest for the Grail as well.
Title: Re: Macedonian figures
Post by: Aerendar Valandil on May 04, 2021, 10:47:58 AM
Tha's looking very nice.

Good to know that I'm not the only one with a nigh eternal project. And that the word 'nigh' truly has meaning.
Title: Re: Macedonian figures
Post by: Doom Beard 78 on May 04, 2021, 11:38:39 AM
I started painting those in 2013- just meant to be a small army just 7 units, famous last words.

being locked down for the best part of a year has given me time to paint, I've painted around 300 figures. I have about 60 historical figures left to paint ( I have a lot of Fantsay figures to get working on )
Title: Re: Macedonian figures
Post by: SJWi on May 04, 2021, 11:48:39 AM
Doombeard, if you want a decent set of “big battle” ancients rules I would look at “To the Strongest” ( TTS). They need some investment as are played on a gridded may but they are my little group’s “go to” set for ancients and medieval.
Title: Re: Macedonian figures
Post by: Clach Umha on May 04, 2021, 03:35:06 PM
.
Title: Re: Macedonian figures
Post by: Doom Beard 78 on May 04, 2021, 06:29:21 PM
here we have most of the Macedonians and Hoplites as they sit on the shelves in my living room. The cupboard has a hinged cover, so they are hidden away from prying eyes .

Thinking about it I really ought to change the buildings in the background and move the Swiss and the unit of Lorrainer cavalry into my medieval/renaissance shelf space but that one is full to bursting
Title: Re: Macedonian figures
Post by: Melnibonean on May 04, 2021, 10:40:04 PM
Fantastic work. Now you need to show us some pics of them deployed and arrayed for battle.
Title: Re: Macedonian figures
Post by: Doom Beard 78 on May 05, 2021, 07:56:24 AM
Melnibonean- I'll have a look to see if I have in game photos. The only one I located is off a game I played about 5 years ago . Oh and I have a shot of a pike phalanx waking through a "wheat field"

I've been profoundly disillusioned with the current set of in print rules and of course, as I discovered, actually locating gamers who want to play in 28mm, particularly in London where I live, seems even more difficult as London is the mecca for devotes of 15mm who delight in A Derivative Little Game. So I have no expectation that these figures will get off the shelf. 
Title: Re: Macedonian figures
Post by: Wellington on May 05, 2021, 08:17:59 AM
Nice!
Title: Re: Macedonian figures
Post by: SJWi on May 05, 2021, 08:50:00 AM
Doombeard, have you checked out Simon Miller’s “To the Strongest”. I find them excellent and with what you have painted you can easily field two Successor armies for the battles of the Diadachoi.
Title: Re: Macedonian figures
Post by: Doom Beard 78 on May 05, 2021, 09:43:32 AM
re: TTS

I have a pdf copy of it and FKAP somewhere.  I have played it a few times at shows usually in Simon's games .  Its OK, allows you to put lots of figures on the table and play to a finish at a good rate but the grid is a turn off for me.  A 6x4 grid from the Bat star is £52. I'd rather spend that on figures. I can't be faffed with making up a grid myself and  spending ages with a set square to locate where to affix markers to show the corners of the grid strikes me as the most irredeemable tedium.
 I found that the game greatly emphasises the linearity of Ancients= this may actually be pretty accurate ( I shall defer to wiser heads on the merits of this point) but as a games mechanism it did n't float my boat. 
I can appreciate that the grid speeds up the game by removing measuring and means that a whole section on manoeuvres can be removed from the rulebook; it also means that you don't issues with clipping or resolving how to maximise contact. to be honest I have rarely struggled with resolving those issues.

Besides, as far as I tell, other than the august personage of the Big Red Bat I have failed to locate anyone who actually plays it in London. 
Title: Re: Macedonian figures
Post by: SJWi on May 05, 2021, 10:06:28 AM
Doombeard, thanks. An honest view and one I can understand. I too played Simon’s demo games and then I jumped in with both feet. I decided that buying a mat or two was small beer compared to a 28mm army of metal figures. TTS has re-vitalised my ancient gaming and it has been a staple of my group’s weekly Zoom games during Lockdown. The grid system has made playing by video very easy.
Title: Re: Macedonian figures
Post by: Doom Beard 78 on May 05, 2021, 10:29:05 AM
I can see why people have taken to it and I applaud Simon for what he has achieved; rather than rehash the DBX concept for WHAB he has gone a different route
Title: Re: Macedonian figures
Post by: Johnp4000 on May 05, 2021, 05:32:52 PM
re: TTS

I have a pdf copy of it and FKAP somewhere.  I have played it a few times at shows usually in Simon's games .  Its OK, allows you to put lots of figures on the table and play to a finish at a good rate but the grid is a turn off for me.  A 6x4 grid from the Bat star is £52. I'd rather spend that on figures. I can't be faffed with making up a grid myself and  spending ages with a set square to locate where to affix markers to show the corners of the grid strikes me as the most irredeemable tedium.
 I found that the game greatly emphasises the linearity of Ancients= this may actually be pretty accurate ( I shall defer to wiser heads on the merits of this point) but as a games mechanism it did n't float my boat. 
I can appreciate that the grid speeds up the game by removing measuring and means that a whole section on manoeuvres can be removed from the rulebook; it also means that you don't issues with clipping or resolving how to maximise contact. to be honest I have rarely struggled with resolving those issues.


Besides, as far as I tell, other than the august personage of the Big Red Bat I have failed to locate anyone who actually plays it in London.




It is funny but I would say the reverse it doesn't favour linearity, the several games I tried ended up with units all over the place! It is an entertaining game especially with lots of units but I don't see it as historical. Units ignore their neighbours breaking and fight on regardless. Although I was used to playing the old style WRG rules where a rout would or could effect surrounding units, rather than units almost fighting in isolation and ignoring what is happening around them, Hail Caesar seems to encourage providing support for lines. Although you would only notice it in a larger game.
Title: Re: Macedonian figures
Post by: SJWi on May 05, 2021, 07:42:18 PM
Johnp4000, I don't want to sound like an advert for TTS but your comment about "units ignore their neighbour breaking" has now been addressed.  Simon has covered  many queries/issues via his free amendment download "Even Stronger".  These mods are in preparation for what I presume will be a v2 of the rules sometime later this year/early 2022.

A battle I ran last week was almost decided by one side breaking as you describe.     
Title: Re: Macedonian figures
Post by: AdamPHayes on May 05, 2021, 08:36:56 PM


I've been profoundly disillusioned with the current set of in print rules and of course, as I discovered, actually locating gamers who want to play in 28mm, particularly in London where I live, seems even more difficult as London is the mecca for devotes of 15mm who delight in A Derivative Little Game. So I have no expectation that these figures will get off the shelf.

That’s a cracking looking phalanx!

We had 336 pikes and hoplites on the table for Paraetecene at the Society of Ancients Battle Day a couple of years ago....  We were using Piquet/ Archon which just about copes with games of this scale.
Title: Re: Macedonian figures
Post by: Fremitus Borealis on May 06, 2021, 12:03:30 AM
Melnibonean- I'll have a look to see if I have in game photos. The only one I located is off a game I played about 5 years ago . Oh and I have a shot of a pike phalanx waking through a "wheat field"

I've been profoundly disillusioned with the current set of in print rules and of course, as I discovered, actually locating gamers who want to play in 28mm, particularly in London where I live, seems even more difficult as London is the mecca for devotes of 15mm who delight in A Derivative Little Game. So I have no expectation that these figures will get off the shelf.

Be right back, I have to go get a mop to clean my drool off the floor from that last "super phalanx" photo lol
Title: Re: Macedonian figures
Post by: fred on May 06, 2021, 06:40:17 AM
We’ve played loads of FKaP and some TTS - the grid thing we are quite happy with. Early on I marked out the grids on the cloth before a game, using small stones / grit. The actual grid doesn’t have to be that accurate, so you don’t need to worry that every box is a perfect 6” square. It is obvious which units are in which box.

We moved on to mats with grid corners pre-printed, partly as we were updating mats anyway, and partly because its quicker.
Title: Re: Macedonian figures
Post by: Johnp4000 on May 06, 2021, 09:14:17 AM
Johnp4000, I don't want to sound like an advert for TTS but your comment about "units ignore their neighbour breaking" has now been addressed.  Simon has covered  many queries/issues via his free amendment download "Even Stronger".  These mods are in preparation for what I presume will be a v2 of the rules sometime later this year/early 2022.

A battle I ran last week was almost decided by one side breaking as you describe.   

Thanks, I will have a look, this was a few years ago, I just noticed Simon seems to have revised some aspects of the rules and a V2 is due out.
Title: Re: Macedonian figures
Post by: Doom Beard 78 on May 06, 2021, 12:59:44 PM
Photos of one of the last Ancients games I played . Hail Caesar Hoplites v Macedonians.  The date shown on the computer file in 2017. From memory I hosted this on a 15"x6" table in my living room - I supplied most of the figures. Upon arrival my opponent questioned why he was "wasting a perfectly good day wargaming with me, when he could be in the park with his daughter". Fair enough I thought, so I never invited him back .  JohnP4000 knows the gamer in question.



Title: Re: Macedonian figures
Post by: Doom Beard 78 on May 06, 2021, 01:01:27 PM
Be right back, I have to go get a mop to clean my drool off the floor from that last "super phalanx" photo lol

That has to be the best thing I have read today
Title: Re: Macedonian figures
Post by: Fremitus Borealis on May 06, 2021, 03:16:42 PM
Be right back, I have to go get a mop to clean my drool off the floor from that last "super phalanx" photo lol

That has to be the best thing I have read today

 :D  :D
Title: Re: Macedonian figures
Post by: Johnp4000 on May 06, 2021, 05:06:01 PM
Photos of one of the last Ancients games I played . Hail Caesar Hoplites v Macedonians.  The date shown on the computer file in 2017. From memory I hosted this on a 15"x6" table in my living room - I supplied most of the figures. Upon arrival my opponent questioned why he was "wasting a perfectly good day wargaming with me, when he could be in the park with his daughter". Fair enough I thought, so I never invited him back .  JohnP4000 knows the gamer in question.

You invited the wrong person! This scale of battle must have really challenged Hail Caesar, did you play enough of the game to have an opinion on how HC works?
Title: Re: Macedonian figures
Post by: Doom Beard 78 on May 06, 2021, 06:01:41 PM
Things I learned
1) phalanxes v Phalanxes in HC gives a long, slow gridning battle of attrition.
2) Formig hoplites with a second line of reserves works as they provide support , this did seem rather ahistorical however, all games which cover the whole of the Ancients and medieval period create these sort of oddities
3) There seem to be few certainties in HC, charged hoplites in flank with companions and the hoplites push away the companions.  In other systems, its almost a dead cert that victory is achieved.

4) the proximity rules are very badly written

Other than that, is was not a bad game. The scale of the game did not really challenge HC- I think I had 10 Heavy Infantry, 2 medium infantry and 3 cavalry units. opponant had some thing similair.

Title: Re: Macedonian figures
Post by: Johnp4000 on May 07, 2021, 11:13:44 AM
Things I learned
1) phalanxes v Phalanxes in HC gives a long, slow gridning battle of attrition.
2) Formig hoplites with a second line of reserves works as they provide support , this did seem rather ahistorical however, all games which cover the whole of the Ancients and medieval period create these sort of oddities
3) There seem to be few certainties in HC, charged hoplites in flank with companions and the hoplites push away the companions.  In other systems, its almost a dead cert that victory is achieved.

4) the proximity rules are very badly written

Other than that, is was not a bad game. The scale of the game did not really challenge HC- I think I had 10 Heavy Infantry, 2 medium infantry and 3 cavalry units. opponant had some thing similair.





With your example 3, I found flank attacks devastating? Attacker gets +1, defender -1, if engaged to the front defender has to split their attacks, so at a real disadvantage. Admittingly attacking warbands, but the few times it has happened unless another defending unit can intervene, normally found the defence broken.

Title: Re: Macedonian figures
Post by: Doom Beard 78 on May 07, 2021, 04:24:25 PM
The situation I experienced was just cavalry in teh flank

This month's Slingshot has this feature
When the Rules Don’t Work - Wargaming Hoplite Battles With Hail Caesar - by Gordon Lawrence

Historical inaccuracy is the eternal bugbear of rulesets and Gordon Lawrence digs up quite a few of them in Hail Caesar, such as fixed unit sizes, Greek hoplite support lines, different parts of a phalanx moving at different speeds, and so on. Answer? A little rules tinkering...

I ended up selling off my copy of Hail caesar during a clearout of rules I had stopped playing.
Title: Re: Macedonian figures
Post by: Johnp4000 on May 08, 2021, 12:10:11 PM
The situation I experienced was just cavalry in teh flank

This month's Slingshot has this feature
When the Rules Don’t Work - Wargaming Hoplite Battles With Hail Caesar - by Gordon Lawrence

Historical inaccuracy is the eternal bugbear of rulesets and Gordon Lawrence digs up quite a few of them in Hail Caesar, such as fixed unit sizes, Greek hoplite support lines, different parts of a phalanx moving at different speeds, and so on. Answer? A little rules tinkering...

I ended up selling off my copy of Hail caesar during a clearout of rules I had stopped playing.

Am I reading it right, that if you are only attacked in the flank or rear you can defend at full strength? That would certainly favour the phalanx?
Title: Re: Macedonian figures
Post by: Westbury on May 16, 2021, 07:20:31 PM
Very, very impressive.
Title: Re: Macedonian figures
Post by: Doom Beard 78 on May 17, 2021, 07:54:21 PM
A mix of  mostly Foundry Scythians, thracians, companions and Greek light cavalry . the later Hellenistic cavalry are a unit of 15 Aventine Seluecid Agema and a unit of Polemarch Companion cavalry .