Lead Adventure Forum
Other Stuff => Workbench => Tutorials => Topic started by: warrenss2 on September 09, 2009, 04:15:57 PM
-
No, No, no... Not THAT kind of making water! No peeing jokes, please! :-X
I need suggestions on methods of making pools of stagnant water for a swamp type terrain.
-
I need suggestions on methods of making pools of stagnant water for a swamp type terrain.
The simplest method, technically, is getting a smooth surface (like plasticard), then paint it various shades of greens, blueish greens and browns. After this has dried, apply numerous layers of gloss varnish, letting each layer dry before the next coat.
Alternatively, you can use those "artificial waters" (I gather those are resins) offered by railroad modelling suppliers. Those, however, require quite some care and experience to get them right, so I´d suggest the varnish method (which worked fine for me on several occasions) for a "beginner" (no offense!).
-
I have seen it done very convincingly with simple white glue over a painted surface also.
-
I have seen it done very convincingly with simple white glue over a painted surface also.
This works well, too, provided that
a) you´ve got a brand of PVA glue that dries up clear
b) you apply it in a dust-free environment, because dust that gets caught in the glue can cause it to dry up opaque.
Using clear liquid paper glue (not PVA) probably works out better, but you have to look out for the many bubbles.
I prefer the varnish method, but I admit it´s rather time-consuming.
-
Whatever material you choose, be very careful with warping. There are only a few special products, which don't shrink at all. Others usually do - varnishes, gels, glue, anything. Porous building materials make the problem even worse. I recommend a sealed pool bottom, whereafter you add thin layers with plenty of drying time inbetween. Try to apply some sort of support/weight/press to keep the subject flat while drying. I've seen many impressive projects completely ruined by warping and shrinkage.
Personally, I'm not a fan of glues. They shink a lot, pull towards the edges and get cloudy over time. Varnish for "surface only" effects, proper water gel for deep pools and waves. That's my preference, but keep browsing around. Other solutions may work for you.
-
A thicker polyurethane varnish such as Yacht varnish is quicker and to me better than an ordinary gloss varnish.
All suggestions so far I have used and do work, the railway model water is very expensive though.
-
I use Woodland Scenics 'realistic water' - you just pour it on.
It's not cheap, and it's slightly tricky yo use, but generally speaking gives a pretty good effect very easily, especially for ponds and standing pools (as opposed to rivers, which can be a bit more tricky... )
-
Below is a link to my website show a bridge diorama using a water gel that you heat up and pour into place. The problem being is the slight raising at the edges where the mould box was. It does show finger prints and collects dust but is effective as you can colour it with inks etc.
http://www.oshiromodelterrain.co.uk/jp/japanese.html (http://www.oshiromodelterrain.co.uk/jp/japanese.html)
cheers
James
-
If you're going for a swampy stagnant feel I'd go with Westfalia Chris. I've used this method and it looks great. If you paint the "swamp" area light towards the edges and darker toward the middle you can get a very strong illusion of depthand if you use a water based gloss varnish you can mix in small amounts of green and yellow and create a glazed effect. I'd only use the expensive Railway Water or resin for clear water.
I recently did these sections of marsh for my F&IW forest board.
They look great btw.
-
The simplest method, technically, is getting a smooth surface (like plasticard), then paint it various shades of greens, blueish greens and browns. After this has dried, apply numerous layers of gloss varnish, letting each layer dry before the next coat.
If I did this method could I apply paint between the layers of varnish? Would that make a slight sense of depth?
Silent Invader, your post about your forestry board is what has inspired me to get busy on my swamp/forest terrain. I had my trees individually mounted but am changing that to 2 to 3 trees per CD base. I love the plants and the way your water looks but I want bigger pools.
-
I'm a big fan of 2-epoxy glue (the clear version). It dries rockhard, doesn't warp or shrink and stays clear all the way. Best stuff I have used for bases.You can easily tint it with inks.
Here's a picture of my Gatormen with their bases:
http://paintoholic.nl/images/gatormen.jpg
(don't mind the dust ;). I learnt that you don't want to apply the stuff too thickly as it really doesn't shrink).
My Deep Ones:
http://paintoholic.nl/images/deepones1.jpg
http://paintoholic.nl/images/deepones2.jpg
http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/3/577_07_06_09_7_16_24_3.jpg
Woodland Scenics Realistic Water is probably the biggest load of crap I ever bought. A huge bottle of supershrinking muck. I hate it big time. The stuff shrinks so much it looks silly. It clings on side surfaces and tends to 'crawl upwards' and then shrink all the way down. This gives supercrappy results for deeper water. In addition, the stuff doesn't dry hard and stays relatively soft. Nope, I will never use the crap again.
Here's one base done with 3 layers of Realistic Water. I poured it all the way to the top...see what I mean?
http://paintoholic.nl/images/wyrdzombie.jpg
-
A further problem I've had with Realistic water is that you can't use even a gloss spray on top of it, you get a sort of "misty" finish with that. Only place where I found it useful was when I painted up a GW demo table, and poured it into grenade-shellholes (or what ever they were supposed to be). Looked fine there, didn't matter that much when it shrunk..
I'd go with a varnish. Would floor polish work, btw? Should be cheaper than varnish anyway? Anyone?
Marko
-
I've heard good reports of Envirotex Lite epoxy varnish for use in water effects. From the examples I've seen even deep pools and fountains can be created without any shrinkage. As for Woodland Scenics water effect, my advice is - don't touch it! Even if - somehow - it doesn't shrink, it will turn yellow over time. What begins as a clear pool will soon turn into a puddle of p!&$ :(
-
Well - must say I'm surprised by the hostility towards Realistic Water!
I agree it's prone to shrink slightly as it dries - but once you understand its properties its not too hard to work with.
That said, I notice they've just launched a 'new, improved recipe' - so clearly WS acknowledge it wasn't a perfect product.
But I've tried varnish before and that shrinks too, so does PVA... So... ::)
I don't think any of my water features made using WS Realistic Water has discoloured - but as I tend to use it in a fairly thin layer over a grungily painted base colour, I guess I wouldn't notice even if it did.
I'm about to paint and then 'waterify' about six feet of river - so keep the advice coming. If anyone has a foolproof product, let's hear about it :)
I've taken the liberty of attaching a few pics of some of the things I've used Realistic Water on. See what you think.
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/0/577_21_07_08_11_27_53.jpg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/0/577_20_07_08_11_53_04_1.jpg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/0/577_20_07_08_11_16_50_0.jpg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/1/577_06_12_08_12_35_47_0.jpg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/1/577_08_09_08_8_22_50_0.jpg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/1/577_25_09_08_10_39_30_0.jpg)
-
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/1/577_08_09_08_8_22_50_0.jpg)
What amazing cavalry!
Absolutely fantastic!
Oh... and the water is kewl too. ;)
-
I don't think any of my water features made using WS Realistic Water has discoloured - but as I tend to use it in a fairly thin layer over a grungily painted base colour, I guess I wouldn't notice even if it did.
I'm about to paint and then 'waterify' about six feet of river - so keep the advice coming. If anyone has a foolproof product, let's hear about it :)
I've taken the liberty of attaching a few pics of some of the things I've used Realistic Water on. See what you think.
Applying thin layers is the only thing I'd consider with RW. That way it can hardly shrink and still resemble water. The softness of the stuff still makes me frown though. But other than using it as a thin film to resemble water I wouldn't use it.
Demonherald (Wyrd Games' main painter) has recommended 'Solid Water' several times. His water bases are totally awesome and he also has a terrific tutorial in Wyrd's first e-zine. You can get Solid Water here at Antenociti:
http://www.barrule.com/Workshop/scratch%20builders%20paradise/water%20wasser%20aqua.html
See Demonherald's bases here:
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j303/demonslairmodels/cmonsubmissions/pirateandpenguin.jpg
http://www.wyrd-games.net/shop/images/P/Ice-Golem2.jpg
And the link to the PDF with the tutorial (p.31-38):
http://wyrd-games.net/Ezine/Wyrd%20Chronicles%20v1.pdf
This may not be perfect for large surfaces, but they work very well for bases and smaller surfaces.
For bigger surfaces I only hear good things about Envirotex Lite. See the Terrainthralls for good tutorials:
http://www.terrainthralls.com/Tutorials%20folder/Port%20Aerie/Port%20Aerie.html
http://www.terrainthralls.com/Tutorials%20folder/Mushroom%20Gysers/Mushroom%20Gysers.html
http://www.terrainthralls.com/Tutorials%20folder/Menoth%20Fountain/Menoth%20Fountain.html
And of course Hirst Arts:
http://www.hirstarts.com/tips24/tips24.html#hole
-
Malebolgia :o :-* :-*
D@MN Fine links, sir!! Thank you.
-
Liquitex Acrylic Gloss Medium. Water-soluble and viscous enough that you can "sculpt" it to form ripples and waves if you need. Also, non-toxic and no harsh fumes, unlike some of the resin options out there. And it does not shrink in my experience.
-
Liquitex Acrylic Gloss Medium. Water-soluble and viscous enough that you can "sculpt" it to form ripples and waves if you need. Also, non-toxic and no harsh fumes, unlike some of the resin options out there. And it does not shrink in my experience.
Hmmm. Sounds rather good. Is it something you find in art shops?
And any idea if you can use it 'deep' - i.e. will it set with a few mm depth - as opposed to just being used as a varnish?
Got any pics of where you've used it? :)
-
Vallejo Still Water works well and is not as expensive as railway stuff...
-
I have to agree that Envirotex Lite Epoxy is one of the best things I've used for water effects. Ripples can be created as it starts to set, it doesn't seem to shrink at all, dries clear and can be colored with various products. You can't get really turbulent water effects with it but the solution to that is some clear gesso on top to create the appearance of rough water. I have used it on several model RR layouts to good effect and don't use anything else anymore.
-
Hmmm. Sounds rather good. Is it something you find in art shops?
And any idea if you can use it 'deep' - i.e. will it set with a few mm depth - as opposed to just being used as a varnish?
Got any pics of where you've used it? :)
You can find it in art supply shops or craft shops like Michael's.
It is closer to a varnish than a "deep" solution. You can get a bit more thickness using acrylic gloss gel medium and acrylic gloss paste, which will hold waves a lot better than the gloss medium. The other big advantage of gloss gels and gloss mediums is that they don't eat styrofoam, which can be an issue with resins.
Here's a photo I found online of a railway modeler using gloss medium on a river.
http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/209#comment-1334
If you are looking at getting some "depth" and having stuff embedded in the water, then your best bet is to go with resin. But if you don't need it, then gloss medium will do the job quite nicely.
I use a painting technique for the riverbottom, where I use black for the centre and this is blended to a rich brown (Territorial Beige, I think, or Nutmeg-colour) closer to the shore where the shallows are. If I'm doing larger bodies of water, I'll blend in some navy blue and some greens in the deeper areas to keep the water from looking too "black". The results are quite striking, and for the $10 or so that a small bottle of gloss medium will cost, it's well worth exploring the technique.
-
For water I use...blue paper, with streaks of white paint. And sometimes, I have to cut it to shape, too.
Oh, and I once painted a bit of wood to look like a very small lake.
This doesn't help much, sorry...
::)
-
Was wandering the net and found a terrain builder who uses Envirotex Lite.
See here http://www.quindia.com/studioart42.htm (http://www.quindia.com/studioart42.htm)
Thanks. That's a nice tutorial :)
I'd have to say though, the properties of this stuff (once mixed) look and sound quite like Realistic Water - apart from the ability to texture the surface once it's nearly dry...
For water I use...blue paper, with streaks of white paint. And sometimes, I have to cut it to shape, too.
Oh, and I once painted a bit of wood to look like a very small lake.
It's how all the famous water terrain artists started out... ;)
-
I read somewhere, of course I can't find it now, of someone using painted up aluminum foil for the bottom, than coated it repeatedly with a gloss varnish.
Does this ring any bells with anyone? Anyone tried this?
I'm going to look for either the LiquiTex Acrylic Gloss Medium or the Envirotex Lite Epoxy tomorrow. I hope Micheal's carries one of them.
I've got some cool, but large, tree trunks made from pumpkin stems, fallen trees (twigs), lichen shrubs, trees... just about ready to go.
-
Hmmm. Sounds rather good. Is it something you find in art shops?
And any idea if you can use it 'deep' - i.e. will it set with a few mm depth - as opposed to just being used as a varnish?
Got any pics of where you've used it? :)
You can get it at Atenociti.
-
An important topic. I am making it sticky and moving it to How to...
-
An important topic. I am making it stiicky and moving it to How to...
"how to..."?!?!?! ???
We got a "How To" section?!?! :o
HOLIEEEE COW!!!! :-*
This is one noobie that is going to spent a ton of time in here!!!! o_o
lol
-
I've been noodling with water effects for a modular dungeon built using Hirst Arts blocks. One of the things I've tried with good results is the liquid acrylic floor polish that goes under various names - Pledge/Future in the US and Klear in the UK. It's cheap and readily available, and has exactly the same properties as a gloss acrylic varnish. I've used it on figures, both as a straightforward varnish, and combined with ink to make a wash in the magic-wash style. ;)
A nice scenic water effect can be built up using several coats of this stuff. It does have an alarming tendency to go opaque in places while drying, depending on temperature and humidity. Stick with it - it'll dry clear and hard. Weed or pond scum can be painted on each surface before applying the next layer for a 3D effect, and as mentioned the polish takes ink and acrylic paint readily.
I've used it for puddles and shallow pools of moisture but also for a deep water-filled pit trap. Once I can figure out my cockamanie camera I'll take some pics. :?
-
I've done a swamp table using blue cellophane over an old blue bedsheet, with islands made from cork tile
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd258/barrycadwgan/leviathan%202009/sw9.jpg)
-
Well - must say I'm surprised by the hostility towards Realistic Water!
I'm in agreement. We used several bottles of Realistic Water and it couldn't have been easier or better looking for our canals on the Ruins of Vanis-Trymno board we did for Epic Heroes. Here's a peek:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10881630_598017433662106_1097454209716116767_n.jpg?oh=1aae9ac66aad8670e5035229f32f5f43&oe=554419B5&__gda__=1426221279_9ab48581d861247f7924f2961c16443f)
(http://<img src="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-0mGoLlP0IW4/UWdzRoOsYRI/AAAAAAAACSw/soVe4ixul4k/s758/BoB%2BApril%2B568.jpg" alt="" width="568" height="758" border="0">)
I doesn't get easier than pour it in and let it dry....