Lead Adventure Forum

Miniatures Adventure => Pikes, Muskets and Flouncy Shirts => Topic started by: Hu Rhu on June 09, 2021, 06:45:33 AM

Title: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Kirke's Lambs
Post by: Hu Rhu on June 09, 2021, 06:45:33 AM
I am looking for some information on the Moorish forces that opposed the British garrison of Tangier during the period 1662-1684.  Any help or pointers to useful books, web sites etc would be very useful.
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Help needed
Post by: OB on June 09, 2021, 12:20:02 PM
Check out the League of Augsburg blog.
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Help needed
Post by: AdmiralAndy on June 09, 2021, 07:44:48 PM
Hi,

I don't know how deep you are into this already or what ruleset your planning.

The short version is this is one of those known about but not much written about.

I've tentatively looked at this and for possibly helpful sources:

Mini-Wargames guide overview in Miniature Wargames 84 mostly focuses on a particular battle in 1681 and mostly on the British side rather meh to be honest imo.

However Wargames Illustrated 350 I definately recommend getting this, very good overview in a handful of pages, article is by someone whose quite passionate about that particular campaign, and it shows. Also makes reference to one of the latter seiges the Moors had Turkish allies, reads like mostly engineers and maybe artillery. But for some what if you could mix some Turkish allied units in with the Moors for a seige action.

The miniature wargames has no suggested reading list, the few WI 350 references mentioned are the Tangiers Campaign by A J Smithers, seems to be last published 2003 (in the £25-30 range where you can find a copy avaliable). The Army of Charles II by J Childs, similar price £25-30 if you can find a copy avaliable, although only 2 chapters reference Tangiers. Apparently online opensource is the - Tangier 1680: Diary of Sir James Halkett.

Additionaly I found the following, you may hear  a barrel being scraped.

There is Tangier 1662-80 The Fist Battle Honour by Various authors, although it does include the Diary of Sir James Halkett and again is mostly focused on the British.

You may infact find details to help hang an approach to modelling on the details contained in a fictional novel Tangier Book One: The King's Army by Alex Janaway. I can only assume it didn't sell very well as last I knew there was no book 2, but he has done some other stuff.

I've also seen reference to someone who games Tangiers being quite excited by the Gripping Beast Arab Box Sets, so you may find those of use.

Let us know how you get along and good luck :)

Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Help needed
Post by: NickNascati on June 09, 2021, 07:53:20 PM
I just googled the topic out of curiosity.  A couple images shows the Moorish forces as looking like a cross between Napoleonic era Mamelukes for the mounted, and mostly typically generic Arab types with long robes.
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Help needed
Post by: Hu Rhu on June 09, 2021, 09:37:20 PM
Many thanks for the quick and useful responses. I am at the very beginning of my quest and have done some general reading mostly about the British forces. As an aside I used to serve in what was the successor to The Tangier Regiment later The Queen's Regiment. They still have a replica colour attributed to that very first regiment.

I am planning more of skirmish game, probably using something like Pikeman's Lament or perhaps a slightly larger force using Beneath the Lily Banners. I was particularly keen to understand if the Moors had access to muskets or were more reliant on bows, swords and spears and also if they were a predominantly infantry or cavalry force.  I was aware of the Turkish involvement.

Thanks very much for the helpful suggestions of publications and the League of Augsburg website.  I'll do a trawl through them and see what I can come up with.

Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Help needed
Post by: AdmiralAndy on June 10, 2021, 12:06:00 AM
Funnily enough I was looking at using Pikemans Lament myself as well, there's suggested army list in I think the national other armies or exoctic armies addon the authors did later.

Unless I'm getting my Rampants mixed up which is always possible but one of them has a list for it.

IIRC the Moors did have some access to firearms though not neccessaryily in great numbers. Maybe more a skirmish unit or two, there maybe some ref in the army list.

Seems a lot of the records focus on the British side of things, hence why I definately recommend the WI 350, should be around at a lowish £5ish and at least gives an overview and even has an osprey image of a Ironside Cavalry having a horseback clash of Sabres with a Moor who looks like he came from Lawrence of Arabia.

Interesting to see this project progress.

Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Help needed
Post by: NickNascati on June 10, 2021, 12:21:30 AM
This one?  If it copies!

https://64.media.tumblr.com/6799ba49ff35ab566037f5aa944e452f/tumblr_inline_nrqt435EOL1qb51b9_400.jpg

Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Help needed
Post by: Hu Rhu on June 10, 2021, 07:08:50 AM
Admiral andy - Thanks again for the extra info.  I'll see what I can do about getting the magazine or at least the article.

This one?  If it copies!

https://64.media.tumblr.com/6799ba49ff35ab566037f5aa944e452f/tumblr_inline_nrqt435EOL1qb51b9_400.jpg



Thanks for the image. It'll help when I start assembling the forces.
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Help needed
Post by: chema1986 on June 10, 2021, 10:26:22 AM
Hello !

If you are looking for miniatures in 28mm I'd use Barbary pirates as Moors, as well as some Ottoman renaissance troops and even some "Reconquista" medieval Andalusian Moors !

Regarding books there are a lot in Spanish language, because there were hundreds of battles between Spanish forces and Moors in that era, being the larguest of all the great siege of Ceuta (30 years besieged) in 1694, as well as smaller actions.
you have Desperta Ferro "Tercios de Africa" magazine, with some information about Moorish troops.

I made a small article this year for Barry Hilton (Warfare Miniatures) with a list of famous actions and battles between Spanish and Moorish/Algerians troops, if you are interested, I can paste it here.

Cheers!

Best regards
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Help needed
Post by: Romark on June 10, 2021, 10:49:55 AM
Looking forward to this project of yours Gary ;D
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Help needed
Post by: Amsivar on June 10, 2021, 10:58:12 AM
You will find a scenario called "Blood and Sand" set in 1680 in A Taste for Victory from Barry Hilton, which includes some information on the forces.

For my own project I settled on a mixture of Ottomans (Dixon, Warlord, TAG and maybe Warfare later on), Arabs (Footsore) and Berber/Tuaregs (Blaze Away). Those figures still stare at me accusingly with unpainted eyes from the shelf - too many plans, too little time.
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Help needed
Post by: Hu Rhu on June 10, 2021, 03:45:51 PM

I made a small article this year for Barry Hilton (Warfare Miniatures) with a list of famous actions and battles between Spanish and Moorish/Algerians troops, if you are interested, I can paste it here.

Thanks for the figure suggestions and yes if you are able to post the article here that would be great.

You will find a scenario called "Blood and Sand" set in 1680 in A Taste for Victory from Barry Hilton, which includes some information on the forces.

For my own project I settled on a mixture of Ottomans (Dixon, Warlord, TAG and maybe Warfare later on), Arabs (Footsore) and Berber/Tuaregs (Blaze Away). Those figures still stare at me accusingly with unpainted eyes from the shelf - too many plans, too little time.

Thanks for info on the Hilton book.  I'll track it down. Also thanks for the figure suggestions.

I fully understand the accusing looks of those figures in the painting queue. I get that a lot.  lol lol lol

Looking forward to this project of yours Gary ;D

You might have to wait a while.  It will come after the Gangsters, Wars of the Roses, Italian Wars Spanish, Trojans and of course the Indian Mutiny (oh and maybe some Stargrave too) are finished.    lol lol lol lol lol

Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Help needed
Post by: AdmiralAndy on June 10, 2021, 08:04:51 PM
This one?  If it copies!

https://64.media.tumblr.com/6799ba49ff35ab566037f5aa944e452f/tumblr_inline_nrqt435EOL1qb51b9_400.jpg

Thats the one :)

It does reference the Osprey title with the picture in the article.
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Help needed
Post by: Numpty on June 11, 2021, 03:23:20 PM
Hello !

If you are looking for miniatures in 28mm I'd use Barbary pirates as Moors, as well as some Ottoman renaissance troops and even some "Reconquista" medieval Andalusian Moors !

Regarding books there are a lot in Spanish language, because there were hundreds of battles between Spanish forces and Moors in that era, being the larguest of all the great siege of Ceuta (30 years besieged) in 1694, as well as smaller actions.
you have Desperta Ferro "Tercios de Africa" magazine, with some information about Moorish troops.

I made a small article this year for Barry Hilton (Warfare Miniatures) with a list of famous actions and battles between Spanish and Moorish/Algerians troops, if you are interested, I can paste it here.

Cheers!

Best regards

Yes Please!
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Help needed
Post by: chema1986 on June 11, 2021, 04:03:11 PM
I again guys, here you have the notes I took from several books and magazines dealing with military actions in North Africa in late XVII c.

 From 1660 onwards, Spanish “presidios” and cities were put under great pressure from Moroccans, Algerians and even Ottoman Janissaries etc. Specially after Mulay Ismail came to power, the attacks were stronger,
.
 British Tangiers, despite holding for several years, finally fell into muslim hands, Spain send reinforcements some times, I think cavalry of Duke of Osuna. 

Talking about battles, there were HUNDREDS of little encounters, perfect for For wargaming skirmishes or sieges.

I have not found if Casablanca and Mazagan,  both Portuguese towns in Atlantic Morocco were attacked during this period, but Spanish had in those days at least 8 towns/fortresses and all of them were besieged, and 2 of them; Larache and La Mamora, finally surrendered after a gallant or even heroic defense.  

Ceuta was besieged from 1694 until 1727, the longest siege in history, longer than Candia in Crete. 

the number of troops that garrisoned the different places from 1640-1695 varied from 4000 to 9000.

Some examples of military actions;

Melilla suffered an assault of 2000 Moors in 1667 that took fort Santo Tomas outside the city, in the following years thousands of Moors attacked the city, taking a couple of redoubts (San Lorenzo and San Francisco) only in 1679, after strong reinforcements from Spain, all the attacks were repelled and the forts retaken.
In 1687 , 8000 Algerians blocked the city during 50 days but had to lift the siege later.

In La Mamora, from 1677 until its lost in 1681, 10.000 Moors attacked the city, defended by a few hundreds of regular troops.

Larache was constantly blockaded from 1677 and repelled two assaults in 1686 and 1687 which caused high casualities to the besiegers.

Oran from 1675 suffered several assaults. There was an ambush laid by the Algerians that massacred the cavalry garrison of Oran. Despite that defeat, the garrison made several sorties that defeated the attackers in 1684,85 and 87...
In 1687, Diego Bracamonte, capitan general of the city died with 750 of his men (40% of the theoric garrison) in an imprudent action outside the walls, so the Dey of Argel, reinforced with Ottoman Janissaries  and Barbary pirates launched a great attack in 1689, but they were repelled with high casualities, the same fate suffered the Moors who besieged Oran again in 1692.

In 1689 Mulay Ismail attacked simultaneously Larache and Melilla, the first was conquered after being attacked by a horde of 10.000-24.000 Moors. Melilla was saved by oportune reinforcements from the Iberian Peninsula who defeated the Moroccans.

The siege of Ceuta by Mulay Ismail is very famous, You will be able to find a lot of information on the web (not like the actions I am writing here )

Despite the decadence of the Habsburg Spanish Monarchy in those hard years of 1670-1709, Spain was able to mobilise enough money, food, men and ships to hold most of his North African possessions. Each year Spain maintained 4500 men there, with peaks of 10.000 when the attacks intensified in 1677 or more than 8000 in 1694 ( Remember Spain was in demographic and economic crisis in late XVII c and in continuous war with France, maintaing standing armies and garrisons in America, Catalonia, Flanders and italy, so Africa was a continuous focus of spending of resources).

Just an example of the artillery. Larache had 113 guns in 1689 and Oran 94 in 1688.

Larache caused several thousands of dead to the attackers, and only fell because Melilla was besieged at the same time and was strategically much more important.


I hope you find useful this information !

Cheers
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Help needed
Post by: Hu Rhu on June 11, 2021, 07:04:12 PM
I again guys, here you have the notes I took from several books and magazines dealing with military actions in North Africa in late XVII c.

I hope you find useful this information !


Thanks Chema that is very useful.  It confirms in my mind that I am looking at a skirmish game, with actions by sortie or perhaps a siege and escalade by the Moors.  To that end I am firming up the use of The Pikeman's Lament as my go-to rules  but with some adaptions as necessary to cater for the siege actions and the troop variations.

It also confirms to me that the Moors/Morroccans must have had some standing forces as maintaining several thousand men in the field for a number of months or even years could not be done with a volunteer/conscript type of army. So the force will be a mix of regular/drilled forces and levy/untrained forces but with professional artillery.

The final deduction I have made is that as they had access to siege artillery, they therefore must also have had wide access to firearms, probably older matchlock muskets in the main, no doubt backed up by bow and spear armed infantry.

That gives me the basis of how I will organise the Moorish forces, along with their cavalry which will be a mix of bow, spear/lance and possibly pistol armed cavalry.

All I need to do now is identify the most suitable figures to provide that mix of forces.  ;) ;)
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Help needed
Post by: fastolfrus on June 11, 2021, 07:46:12 PM
If you're looking at a skirmish, League of Augsberg have a scenario in the free introductory pack 4P000
Not on their website, but if you drop them an email they might send you one.
You could also ask what figures they used in the photos?
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Help needed
Post by: Hu Rhu on June 11, 2021, 08:06:07 PM
If you're looking at a skirmish, League of Augsberg have a scenario in the free introductory pack 4P000
Not on their website, but if you drop them an email they might send you one.
You could also ask what figures they used in the photos?

Thanks for the tip.
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Help needed
Post by: Baron von Wreckedoften on June 13, 2021, 04:28:41 PM
Not realising this was here, I put up a similar request on the League of Augsburg's "Fighting Talk" forum, in relation to building an opposing army for a FoG:R 15mm game (I already have the Tangiers Garrison force for 1680-ish, including a regiment of Spanish horse).  I'll keep an eye on here and share whatever my request elicits.

(Helion have published a book on the Ottoman Army of 1648-1718, if that is of any use.)
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Help needed
Post by: Hu Rhu on June 13, 2021, 05:35:43 PM
Not realising this was here, I put up a similar request on the League of Augsburg's "Fighting Talk" forum, in relation to building an opposing army for a FoG:R 15mm game (I already have the Tangiers Garrison force for 1680-ish, including a regiment of Spanish horse).  I'll keep an eye on here and share whatever my request elicits.

(Helion have published a book on the Ottoman Army of 1648-1718, if that is of any use.)

I have a request to join the League of Augsberg forum which is pending so I'll catch up on your thread once I'm accepted. I did email Barry Hilton regarding the PDF scenarios and he was kind enough to send me a couple.  There is another in the Taste of Victory book, which I will get at some stage.

Feel free to add to the debate here as it seems that there is no concensus as to how the Moors were armed and equipped.  As such I am making some assumptions which are in the posts above.

Despite we are looking at different scales I am sure that some ideas will cross permeate.  Thanks also for the info on the Hellion book.  I am sure the read over regarding troop types and weaponry will be useful.
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Matchlock Musketmen
Post by: Hu Rhu on June 19, 2021, 10:24:59 AM
I have decided to dip my toe into creating some Moorish forces for the Tangiers project.  I did an extensive look at what figures were available both in metal (my preference) and plastic.  There are plenty of bow and spear armed arab infantry from various ranges but almost no musket armed troops except Turks.  I wanted to create a musket armed unit that had an arab look but not look too regimented nor too Turkish looking.

So as an exploratory foray into the Moorish forces I bought a sprue each of the Gripping Beast Arab Infantry, the Perry Afghans and the Wargames Atlantic Afghans (who have yet to arrive) and started some kitbashing.

The Perry Afghans had quite an array of Jezzails which when used out of the NWF context could pass as Matchlocks.  Here are a couple of figures made from GB Arab bodies and Perry arms with a mix of the two sets heads.  First up is a GB body and head with Perry Arms.

(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/51/6932-190621093434-517962065.jpeg)

Next is a GB body with Perry arms and head.  You can see the better definition of the Perry heads which are much better sculpted than the GB plastics.

(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/51/6932-190621093434-51797445.jpeg)

Then you have a couple of straight out of the box Perrys.

(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/51/6932-190621094058-5180023.jpeg)

I was generally happy with the mix of the two sets until I put the two side by side.  You can see in this shot that an upright Perry (left) next to a GB figure.  The GB are quite a lot shorter although roughly the same bulk.

(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/51/6932-190621094059-51801569.jpeg)

It is less noticeable when the figures are slighty hunched over when running as shown here.

(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/51/6932-190621094059-518021226.jpeg)

But very noticeable when the Perry figures are upright.

(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/51/6932-190621094100-51803962.jpeg)

I solved this by a little trump d'oeil involving the basing.  I intend to mount these on my standard 2p coins as they will be a skirmish force.  I added some height by introducing another 1p cpoin to the base of the GB figures which brought their height to a more pleasing level. Once I have finished teh ground work and flocking of the bases, the extra height will not be noticeable.

(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/51/6932-190621094100-518042476.jpeg)


Finally here is a group shout of the first 11 figures. I intend to see what I can make out of the WA sprue before deciding which figures will make up my first unit of 12. I may not use all of those in the photo.

(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/51/6932-190621094245.jpeg)


Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Matchlock Musketmen
Post by: Captain Blood on June 19, 2021, 10:54:39 AM
They’ll do the job very nicely Gary  8)
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Matchlock Musketmen
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on June 19, 2021, 11:01:54 AM
Some cool kitbashing mate!
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Matchlock Musketmen
Post by: mikedemana on June 19, 2021, 05:44:39 PM
It always amazes me how people can take a bit here and there from different bodies and create an awesome new figure...  :o

Mike Demana
http://leadlegionaries.blogspot.com/
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Matchlock Musketmen
Post by: Hu Rhu on June 20, 2021, 11:07:27 AM
They’ll do the job very nicely Gary  8)

Some cool kitbashing mate!

It always amazes me how people can take a bit here and there from different bodies and create an awesome new figure...  :o

Mike Demana
http://leadlegionaries.blogspot.com/

Thanks guys. They may not be the best in the world but they seem to work. 

The Wargames Atlantic sprue arrived yesterday and I was keen to see what I could make out of that.  The good news is that their jezzail was almost identical to the Perry's. The bad news is that the bodies were very Afghan (wrong mix of tunics and trousers for my part of the world) and there was only one that came close to matching the others. Here he is against a Perry.

(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/51/6932-200621105404-51814984.jpeg)

As you can see he is quite slight and not as sharply sculpted as the Perry figure.

Here he is with both the GB (left) and Perry (right).

(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/51/6932-200621105404-51815442.jpeg)

However add a bit of height with another base and he is pretty good and I think will fit in with the other figures quite well when painted up,

(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/51/6932-200621105405-5181614.jpeg)


Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Matchlock Musketmen
Post by: NurgleHH on June 20, 2021, 11:41:40 AM
Great ideas, but I think GB does not fit well with Perrys and Wargames Atlantic. But with color you will make it better, I think. The GB-plastics are very poor, I'm afraid. Your work is fantastic, as usual. New project???
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Matchlock Musketmen
Post by: traveller on June 20, 2021, 02:04:11 PM
  Very interesting thread this, will follow with interest!  :-*
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Matchlock Musketmen
Post by: Hu Rhu on June 20, 2021, 02:06:51 PM
  Very interesting thread this, will follow with interest!  :-*

Thanks. Follow on.  :D

Great ideas, but I think GB does not fit well with Perrys and Wargames Atlantic. But with color you will make it better, I think. The GB-plastics are very poor, I'm afraid. Your work is fantastic, as usual. New project???

Thanks Dirk.  Whilst I agree that the three ranges are quite different, funnily enough I think that the GB are closer to what I envisaged as a Moor than the two Afghan ranges when I started. They are just not the best figures out there. 

I'll see what they look like once painted up and make a decision as to which ones make the final cut.  I also plan to convert some metals using the Perry Jezzail arms so I might get closer to what I am looking for with them.

As to a new project, I'll simply add this one to the other 4 or so that I have going on.  :D :D 

They'll have to take their turn on the painting table but you never know this one might make it to BLAM 2022.  lol lol
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Matchlock Musketmen
Post by: Baron von Wreckedoften on June 20, 2021, 08:47:01 PM
No response from anyone yet on the League of Augsburg board......  :(
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Matchlock Musketmen
Post by: Hu Rhu on June 21, 2021, 09:02:23 AM
No response from anyone yet on the League of Augsburg board......  :(

I'm still waiting for confirmation of my request to join their Forum.  :?
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Matchlock Musketmen
Post by: NurgleHH on June 21, 2021, 10:58:28 AM
They'll have to take their turn on the painting table but you never know this one might make it to BLAM 2022.  lol lol
I don't think 2021 will happen, in the moment the dice are not rolling for us... :(
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Matchlock Musketmen
Post by: Baron von Wreckedoften on July 03, 2021, 07:12:19 PM
I'm still waiting for confirmation of my request to join their Forum.  :?

Any news on that yet?  Nothing heard from my enquiry (as yet).  I've also PM'd you about the magazine article.
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Matchlock Musketmen
Post by: Hu Rhu on July 03, 2021, 08:10:08 PM
Any news on that yet?  Nothing heard from my enquiry (as yet).  I've also PM'd you about the magazine article.

Yes after a slight chase up, I now have access.  I have replied to your PM.  More to follow on what I have gleaned so far later.
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Force Composition
Post by: Hu Rhu on July 03, 2021, 10:16:06 PM
So having done some reading into the subject from the few sources available, I have come to the conclusion that the Moorish forces changed over time.  My understanding is that in the early days of the Garrison (1662-1674) the Moors relied very heavily on their cavalry and close combat infantry armed with scimitar and shield a few bows and almost no firearms.  I may be wrong in this, but no source mentions the Moors using firearms in this period.  If any of you know differently I would be pleased to hear it.

Their tactics were either a charge by cavalry backed up by infantry when fighting more open affairs or more often planned ambushes luring the Garrison out by tempting them with livestock and then springing the trap.  They also used the feigned retreat of small forces to lure the British to follow up and caught them with larger forces.

In that later period of 1680-1684, the Moors seemed to favour siege warfare, primarily to overcome the line of forts the British had established on a ring of low hills beyond the main fortifications.  Here they were assisted by Turkish gunners and sappers/miners and occasionally a renegade Europeans, including some former British soldiers. By defintion they must have had greater access to gunpowder and firearms. Indeed one source mentions that the Moors had been collecting cannonballs fired by the British over a number of years so that when the finally acquired cannons, thay could actually use them.

Their tactics were to dig mines, supported by siege lines surrounding the fort and cutting off reinforcements or retreats.  They still used close combat troops to man the siege lines but now seemed to have greater access to firearms, as witnessed when they held off by fire an attempt by the Royal Navy’s boats to extricate one small garrison by sea.  In addition, the use of cavalry had reduced but was still available, especially in more set piece battles.

Taking these factors into consideration, I intend to base my project in the later period, which gives me a wide variety of forces (including some Spanish Cavalry should I wish) but also a more balanced set up of forces.  The forts also provide a great deal of scenario possibilities, which I will outline in a later post.

Bearing in mind that I have chosen to use these as a large skirmish game, based on The Pikeman’s Lament rules (adapted where necessary) then these are my outline 24 point starter forces.

British
6 Cavalry Elite      6 Pts
12 Veteran Pike      6 Pts
12 Veteran Shot   6 Pts
12 Veteran Shot   6 Pts
Total 6 Cavalry and 36 Foot. I will also have unit of 6 Grenadiers (acting as a Forlorn Hope if the scenario calls for it) to replace one of the above units.

Moorish Forces
6 Elite Cavalry Lance   6 Pts
6 Raw Horse Archers   3 Pts
12 Raw Matchlock   3 Pts
12 Raw Matchlock   3 Pts
12 Warband       3 Pts
12 Warband       3 Pts
12 Warband       3 Pts
Total 12 Cavalry and 60 Infantry

I can adjust these forces to improve or reduce capabilities as required by the scenario.

In the meantime I have been putting paint on the first Moorish Matchlock figures and hope to have the first few finished shortly.
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - First painted Matchlocks
Post by: Hu Rhu on July 04, 2021, 03:24:03 PM
Here is my first painted Moorish Matchlock.  8 more figures part finished on the painting table for the first unit.

(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/52/6932-040721152122-520491816.jpeg)

(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/52/6932-040721152122-520511138.jpeg)

Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - First painted Matchlocks
Post by: Friends of General Haig on July 04, 2021, 07:50:57 PM
An excellent topic for a skirmish collection - the first Moors look splendid 👍
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - First painted Matchlocks
Post by: Romark on July 05, 2021, 09:02:52 AM
They look great Gary,hope this project has jumped up your "to do " list now ! :)
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - First painted Matchlocks
Post by: Rogerc on July 05, 2021, 09:43:58 AM
Lovely job, the Wargames Atlantic Afghans have a number of heads with the cloth over their faces which might alos be a good fit for these.
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - First painted Matchlocks
Post by: Hu Rhu on July 05, 2021, 11:02:51 AM
An excellent topic for a skirmish collection - the first Moors look splendid 👍

Thanks.

They look great Gary,hope this project has jumped up your "to do " list now ! :)

Sadly it has.  ;)  Sadly because the other projects have taken a back seat, but my regular wargaming partner is also enthused by this period so we might be branching out into other late 17th century conflicts. Thanks for the positive comments.

Lovely job, the Wargames Atlantic Afghans have a number of heads with the cloth over their faces which might alos be a good fit for these.

Thanks and also for the suggestions.  I have a sprue of the WA Afghans but will not be using many of their bodies as they are too specifically the wrong period.  However I shall look to use the other parts of the sprue and will investigate the heads.  I plan to use a mix of the GB Arabs and Perry Afghans for most of the foot with a few metals to give a little more variety, such as some of the Artizan figures from their March or Die range.

Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - First painted Matchlocks
Post by: Dr DeAth on July 05, 2021, 12:20:50 PM
Jolly Nice brushwork there Gary.
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - First painted Matchlocks
Post by: mikedemana on July 05, 2021, 05:18:40 PM
These look great! Very interesting niche period between larger ones. Looking forward to seeing more!

Mike Demana
http://leadlegionaries.blogspot.com/
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - First painted Matchlocks
Post by: Hu Rhu on July 05, 2021, 06:52:19 PM
Jolly Nice brushwork there Gary.

Thanks Mark.

These look great! Very interesting niche period between larger ones. Looking forward to seeing more!

Mike Demana
http://leadlegionaries.blogspot.com/

Thanks. Niche period is exactly that but I am going to expand my British force later on for the Glorious Revolution and the 9 Years War periods.  And I can always re-purpose my Moors for the 1st Afghan War.
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - First painted Matchlocks
Post by: Rogerc on July 05, 2021, 07:40:15 PM
PM me if you decide you like the Wargames Atlantic heads with covered faces, I wont be using those particular ones.
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Next batch
Post by: Hu Rhu on July 08, 2021, 04:47:39 PM
PM me if you decide you like the Wargames Atlantic heads with covered faces, I wont be using those particular ones.

Thanks very much.

Next batch of Moor with Matchlocks.

(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/52/6932-080721164411-521092002.jpeg)

(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/52/6932-080721164411-521101799.jpeg)

Just 4 more to go for my first unit.

(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/52/6932-080721164412-521111951.jpeg)

Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Next batch
Post by: traveller on July 09, 2021, 06:28:04 AM
Looking good!
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Next batch
Post by: Romark on July 09, 2021, 12:03:45 PM
Looking good!
Seconded!🙂
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Next batch
Post by: NurgleHH on July 09, 2021, 02:43:04 PM
With colour on the plastic you made the figures great. They could also work as Bedouin outlaws in middle Egypt raiding a Nile boat. Great, Sir!
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Next batch
Post by: Hu Rhu on July 09, 2021, 06:45:29 PM
Looking good!

Thanks.

Seconded!🙂

Thanks Keith

With colour on the plastic you made the figures great. They could also work as Bedouin outlaws in middle Egypt raiding a Nile boat. Great, Sir!

Glad you like them.  Yes they can double with other periods.
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Next batch
Post by: Baron von Wreckedoften on July 09, 2021, 10:59:48 PM
Lovely work - and thanks for the emails!
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Next batch
Post by: Helen on July 10, 2021, 02:24:37 AM
Lovely looking unit.
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Next batch
Post by: Mad Lord Snapcase on July 10, 2021, 10:06:37 AM
Excellent, lovely painting.
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Kirke's Lambs
Post by: Hu Rhu on July 12, 2021, 01:28:45 PM
Lovely work - and thanks for the emails!

Thanks - and you're welcome.

Lovely looking unit.

Excellent, lovely painting.

Thank you both.

Next up are the first of the English forces.  These are Fronk Rank miniatures, painted as The 1st (or Old) Tangier Regiment, latre to be known as Kirke's Lambs. 

(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/52/6932-120721132250-52134123.jpeg)

(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/52/6932-120721132250-52136539.jpeg)

(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/52/6932-120721132251-52137270.jpeg)

I have mounted these figures on 1p coins - different from the Moors - as I intend these to do double duty as troops in both Monmouth's Rebellion and in the 9 Years War using 'Under the Lily Banners' rules mounted in sabot bases.
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Kirke's Lambs
Post by: Romark on July 12, 2021, 02:17:53 PM
Love 'em :-*
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Kirke's Lambs
Post by: Baron von Wreckedoften on July 12, 2021, 03:20:31 PM
Before it went all "touchy-feely", the National Army Museum in London used to have a display case with a 1:1 depiction of Kirke's Lambs, complete with pikes and colours in the centre and grenadiers on each flank. I think they used the venerable Dixon range - the first to cover this period in 25mm, I believe.  Sadly, the donor had done too good (ie accurate) a paint job on them and the figures were so dark you could barely see them inside the case!
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Kirke's Lambs
Post by: Friends of General Haig on July 12, 2021, 09:36:50 PM
They look cracking 👍
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Kirke's Lambs
Post by: carlos marighela on July 13, 2021, 04:42:15 AM
Nice work.

If you can, you should go for a separate command group with officers in the grey, presumably lightweight, coats that Wenceslas Hollar depicted. The French command codes from the Northstar, ex-Copplestone range are best for that, as they have the elbow length cuffs. I’ve been meaning to buy a pack to give mine separate command bases for Tangier and Sedgemoor.
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Kirke's Lambs
Post by: Hu Rhu on July 13, 2021, 10:15:41 AM
Love 'em :-*

They look cracking 👍

Thanks very much.

Nice work.

If you can, you should go for a separate command group with officers in the grey, presumably lightweight, coats that Wenceslas Hollar depicted. The French command codes from the Northstar, ex-Copplestone range are best for that, as they have the elbow length cuffs. I’ve been meaning to buy a pack to give mine separate command bases for Tangier and Sedgemoor.

Thanks.  I am unfamiliar with the drawing/painting that you mention.  What period is that for?  Given that these are going to cover all three periods, I don't want to use something that was only right in one place. 

I haven't gotten any of the Northstar figures yet.  Are they a good match for Front Rank?
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Kirke's Lambs
Post by: carlos marighela on July 13, 2021, 11:09:39 AM
Hollar was a noted artist and visited Tangier around 1668/69. He produced a collection of sketches, maps and watercolours that are pretty much the only graphic record of Tangiers for the period of English occupation. Google Hollar and Tangiers and you will get dozens of useful pics. Especially useful if you plan on building the town walls and defences.

There’s a well known sketch of Sir Palmes Fairborne, the Governor of Tangiers wearing a very French influenced and for the time very fashionable coat. The same figure is also incorporated in a larger watercolour scene where the coat is shown as grey.

I’ve added the sketch and also the Osprey interpretation of the watercolour.

The Northstar figures are exquisite and basically paint themselves. Size wise they are a decent match for Front Rank. Despite Mark having sculpted the Dixon range, his later figures are considerably talker than the Dixons, although with some creative basing and placed in separate units they can work.

On the topic of miniatures, if you also plan on doing Sedgemoor, it’s worth having a look at some of the Brigade Games King Phillip’s War range.
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Kirke's Lambs
Post by: carlos marighela on July 13, 2021, 11:12:18 AM
Some more of Hollar’s sketches here:

http://warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com/2017/03/wenceslaus-holllar-pictures-of-tangiers.html
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Kirke's Lambs
Post by: Hu Rhu on July 13, 2021, 01:06:46 PM
Thanks very much for the pics and the links.  I have the Osprey book but did not link the two as being in the same regiment.  I might paint up the three officers I have with grey coats.
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Kirke's Lambs
Post by: Baron von Wreckedoften on July 13, 2021, 04:52:12 PM
A propos the Hollar sketches/paintings, I don't think the garrison was particularly well supplied for long periods of its occupation, so uniforms - especially officers' kit - may have been expected to last a while, and the informal stuff, such as the grey coats may even have been designed with longevity in mind.  I have often wondered if the men actually fought in their shirtsleeves and coloured waistcoats due to the heat, rather than the full regimental coat.  Or maybe they just took the waistcoats off, as the coat would probably give greater protection against edged weapons?

I'm not sure when it dates from (possibly the later period - late 1670s/early 1680s), but there is also a very detailed painting of a massive parade involving the whole of the garrison, which includes naval units, the Duke of York & Albany's Regiment in their yellow coats, and various cavalry troops.

Edit: I think it's called "Lord Dartmouth's parade of the army at Tangier, 1683" and was done just prior to the final evacuation; the troops included a composite Guards battalion (King's and Coldstream), plus detachments of Dumbarton's (later 1st Foot), the 1st Tangier Regiment (later 2nd Foot) which had formed the original garrison, the Buffs (later 3rd Foot), and the newly-raised 2nd Tangier Regiment (later 4th Foot), and the Duke of York's (disbanded in 1690, but widely accepted as the forerunners of the Royal Marines).
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Kirke's Lambs
Post by: NurgleHH on August 05, 2021, 10:36:06 AM
With colour on the plastic they became fantastic. I love this project. Please more pictures for the audience, Garry.
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Kirke's Lambs
Post by: carlos marighela on August 05, 2021, 12:08:38 PM
Average temperatures were on the whole cooler in the late 17th C and even today the climate in Tangier is relatively mild, with prevailing winds blowing in from the Atlantic. High 20’s are typical in summer. It’s therefore likely that the rank and file wore their coats, save for fatigue duties and the hottest of days.
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Kirke's Lambs
Post by: Baron von Wreckedoften on August 07, 2021, 10:55:27 PM
Thank you for that information, Carlos.
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Kirke's Lambs
Post by: Hu Rhu on December 17, 2021, 09:23:35 PM
Finally got around to finishing off one of the musketeer companies for the Tangier Regiment. These eight newly painted figures are Front Rank.

(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/53/6932-171221211427.jpeg)

And when added to the previous four and we have the first 12 man shot unit.

(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/53/6932-171221211550.jpeg)

Although these are single based figures for the adapted Pikeman's Lament rules,  I will use sabot bases to create a more formed look when using these for Monmouth's rebellion and the Glorious Revolution using the War of the Three Kings (Beneath the Lily Banners) rules.

Whilst I am on a roll, I started on the pike armed company.  More to follow shortly. Apologies for the slightly blurry pics.

Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Kirke's Lambs
Post by: Captain Blood on December 21, 2021, 01:12:32 PM
Jolly nice Gary  :)
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Kirke's Lambs
Post by: Romark on December 21, 2021, 04:08:59 PM
Nice work on those Gary 👍
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Kirke's Lambs
Post by: Friends of General Haig on December 22, 2021, 09:49:19 AM
They look great 👍.  Great idea to base singly and then use sabots.  I have sometimes done this as well to try and get dual use of my figures.
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Kirke's Lambs
Post by: Silent Invader on December 22, 2021, 10:55:05 AM
Very nice Gary
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Kirke's Lambs
Post by: Malamute on December 22, 2021, 11:43:08 AM
Nicely done Gary :)
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Kirke's Lambs
Post by: Hu Rhu on December 22, 2021, 02:26:55 PM
Thanks for the lovely comments guys.

I have finished the Pike Company in which I have included the command figures.  Figures are again by Front Rank with flags from Warfare Miniatures.

(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/53/6932-221221141933.jpeg)

I need a few more figures to complete the British which will consist of a musket armed company of Dumbarton's Regiment (Royal Scots), a Grenadier unit and a small unit of horse.  Sadly I am waiting on the delayed sale of Front Rank to Gripping Beast so I'll turn my attention back to the Moors.
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Kirke's Lambs
Post by: Romark on December 22, 2021, 06:40:21 PM
More loveliness  8)
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Kirke's Lambs
Post by: bigredbat on December 22, 2021, 10:40:28 PM
They are super!
Title: Re: Moorish Forces at Tangier - Kirke's Lambs
Post by: Dr DeAth on December 22, 2021, 11:35:38 PM
Very nice Gary.