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Other Stuff => General Wargames and Hobby Discussion => Topic started by: Grumpy Gnome on June 16, 2021, 09:35:55 AM

Title: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on June 16, 2021, 09:35:55 AM
I have this idea that there are most players, let’s call them “guest players,” the folks who may have their favorite character mini, or their favorite warband, maybe even their favorite army. They also may have their favorite dice and appropriate personal rule books but no terrain, no NPCs. I believe these players are the majority of gamers.

For most of the years I have been gaming I was a guest player. It never crossed my mind to get some props, terrain or minis that I would not be “controlling”. I always relied on a “host player” for these things.

So then, what are  “host players?” They have playing/storage space, game props, terrain, their own favorite character/warband/army and a bunch of NPCs that they or others may be “controlling.” These host players could also be described as world builder players. I believe that they are likely a minority of gamers.

The last couple of years I have become a host player.

Now I would like to test my theory… are guest players the majority and host players the minority?

To what end you may ask?

For me, adding terrain to the table helps share the sense of world building. It makes me feel more like it is “our table” compared to “my table”.

I would love to see the majority of players get some terrain, easy to transport scatter if you will, some buildings or modular pieces of buildings. Pieces that they can continue to use long after they have repeatedly switched favorite character/warband/army. Pieces that they bring to the different games they play and pool together to help host players make even more amazing tables.

It is true that some folks do this already as part of gaming clubs but again I believe that is a minority and that most folks who bring things to share at clubs or events are still actually host players…. Just on the move, so to speak. It is folks doing this that gave me the idea that maybe it would be good for the hobby if more did it.

Another thing that sparked this thought was watching Too Fat Lardies using their random terrain set up system for Infamy, Infamy! on YouTube.

Do you think it would be a good idea for more players to have a couple of favorite terrain pieces and/or NPC’s to bring to games?

What do you think could be done to encourage more players to do this?
Title: Re: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: BZ on June 16, 2021, 11:03:36 AM
I voted for host player, because technically I am. But as I just play with my kids and wife, its not that clear and 100% coverage of the essence of the question.
And I think, You will get more host votes here, because a host must be more interested in the universe of tabletop gaming, so more likely to read LAF too.
And just a theoretical thought: I wouldnt bring any terrain to a game (unless asked for it), because I think its important to have a homogene style of the table, and more different sources of terrain pieces could hurt this. But as I never played elsewhere, I may easely be wrong about this.
Title: Re: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: fred on June 16, 2021, 11:37:17 AM
Within our gaming group there are probably about 5 people who can host, and a similar number who are guests.

But all the hosts will be guests at times.

Guests nearly always bring their own figures / armies.

We tend to play big battle games, so NPCs are less common in our terrain / table setup. It is rare that we bring terrain to other hosts houses - and when we do it will be some specific item for a scenario. Transporting armies is much easier than transporting terrain as well, which probably comes into this.
Title: Re: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: Ogrob on June 16, 2021, 11:48:23 AM
I think you will get a skewed result on this forum :D

Agree with your premise, not all players have the resources and interest to gather terrain and play surfaces.

In my case I am definitely a host player when it comes to DnD, and to a large extent wargaming as well. I like to collect terrain, monsters and NPCs. However I also play a lot at a gaming club and I am less of a host player there. I am one of the few players to bring bestiaries for Frostgrave, but so far I have only contributed a little bit of terrain to the club. Others do that to a large extent, while many only come bring their minis for the game they are playing.
Title: Re: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on June 16, 2021, 12:06:15 PM
Whilst I have been asking these questions in a number of forums, fair point about results being skewed by the type of interested folks who are on such forums compared to more casual players.

I can see from early responses  in various places my terms are causing some confusion.

The fact that you would provide minis and terrain at all makes you a “host player.” The question is not where do you game or are you a DM/GM. Where ever you play, in whichever role, you help in hosting the game by helping with the physical tools of world building.

And yes this often falls onto the more experienced players with more resources available… but should there be a way to encourage new players to help out with Terrain at the same time they buy their first minis?
Title: Re: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: v_lazy_dragon on June 16, 2021, 12:16:08 PM
Definitely a host player (most of my interests are so niche I long ago gave up any hope of finding another player with compatible forces, so now plan on doing both sides!) and ironically, so are most of my gaming buddies. We normally plan in advance what the games are likely to be, and collaborate on meeting the scenery requirements between us.
Have also seen a guest player slowly evolve into a host player when he discovered that none of his local GW players had any home scenery (as they only played at stores) and so has gradually accumulated a table's worth so that he can get games in at home
Title: Re: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: Aerendar Valandil on June 16, 2021, 12:22:36 PM
I'm inbetween. I have a set (or actually two) sets of terrain for home play,and although I usually play at our club (and use club terrain), and occasionally play elsewhere, I have occasional games at my place, with a full set of terrain. I do have limited space at home and I use the limited space rather for models than for more sets of terrain. And I do not like building (large amounts of) terrain, I simply like painting models better.

So I am neither, or both a bit.
 
Title: Re: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: dadlamassu on June 16, 2021, 12:52:43 PM
Most of the time I am a host because my main opponents are grandchildren and other family members and I have a wargames table.  That said on Monday evenings from 1970s to covid I was a Guest at a friend's house. Once restrictions allow I will again be both host and guest at different times.
Title: Re: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on June 16, 2021, 01:09:26 PM
I'm inbetween. I have a set (or actually two) sets of terrain for home play,and although I usually play at our club (and use club terrain), and occasionally play elsewhere, I have occasional games at my place, with a full set of terrain. I do have limited space at home and I use the limited space rather for models than for more sets of terrain. And I do not like building (large amounts of) terrain, I simply like painting models better.

So I am neither, or both a bit.
 

Do you take terrain with you when you play not at your house or club but elsewhere?

If not, why not? No criticism intended, just genuine curiosity. Too much hassle? Didn’t think to do it?
Title: Re: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: Pattus Magnus on June 16, 2021, 02:08:57 PM
I definitely am toward the host end of the spectrum. I have a solid collection of terrain and usually build a lot of NPCs in addition to my core armies. And I usually build at least one opposing force in addition to my core army.

Of course, that’s also aspirational - lots of my projects aren’t actually complete and I end up with half a core force, one third of an opposing force, a few NPCs and half a terrain build, before wandering into another period!
Title: Re: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: Elbows on June 16, 2021, 03:24:44 PM
Definitely a "host" player.  That's something that was introduced to me shortly after college.  The group I gamed with was older by 15-20 years, but they instilled in me the idea 'if you want to run a game...paint it up...and host it".   There was no expectation of the group buying into an arms race.  One person would routinely know the rules, build the table/terrain and bring all the miniatures required, etc.

If, coincidentally, someone else enjoyed the same game or genre and could bring additional stuff - all the better.

My current gaming group consists of around 10 people.  Of that, two host with tables/terrain/etc. with a third occasionally able to host one game.  Several others have the room/space/time/money but don't bother.  Of those 10 only 3-4 play routinely with one or two who are fringe gamers - in that they buy tons of stuff and talk about gaming while almost never gaming (read: once every 2-3 months).

So of my group of ten: 3/10 are host players, and 7/10 are guest players....but some are barely that.  Not much of a coincidence, but the host players are also the ones who field solely painted miniatures, etc.  Everyone else has a 50%+ chance of showing up with unpainted stuff, etc.
Title: Re: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: Harry Faversham on June 16, 2021, 04:28:53 PM
Wild horses wouldn't drag me into being a guest player!

 :-[

Title: Re: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on June 16, 2021, 04:55:04 PM
Very interesting replies, much appreciated. It is certainly enlightening.
Title: Re: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: Dolnikan on June 16, 2021, 05:18:42 PM
On one hand, I would definitely want to be a host player. I am planning on building some terrain, but the real use will have to wait until I actually have enough space to host a game!
Title: Re: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: Cat on June 16, 2021, 05:42:41 PM
Definitely a host player.
 
There are a few games I would like to collect just some figures for and play, and I've been trying to persuade others to host those games — because I don't have the time and the storage space to do terrain for all the games! 
Title: Re: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: modelwarrior on June 16, 2021, 07:51:28 PM
Definetly a host player as I love building terrain.


"If you build it they will come"
Title: Re: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: sonicReducer on June 17, 2021, 08:29:15 AM
When I started gaming as a teenager and for many years I was definitely a guest gamer, playing mostly GW games. Most hobby money went to minis, paints and rules. Terrain was very daunting.

Now being older I greatly appreciate having good looking terrain to play on (not that I get many games in). Now terrain is a major factor in deciding to start a period or scale, and has been a major factor in me sticking with a single period and scale due to storage. So I would say I started as guest gamer and have grown into a host gamer.
Title: Re: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on June 17, 2021, 08:44:21 AM
What can either hobbyists or manufacturing companies do to make terrain less daunting?

Title: Re: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: Digits on June 17, 2021, 09:27:05 AM
Drop the price?


To be fair, I actually find most models not too expensive, but there are some out there taking the proverbial!

I wasn’t sure what to vote so voted for neither.

Yes, I have scenery but equally, I love to play on other peoples tables too!

I don’t like games that don’t look good…..nor do I like playing games with unpainted minis (even though I don’t like painting them!)
Title: Re: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: robh on June 17, 2021, 10:20:32 AM
Definitely "host" player by your definition. Was more 50-50 when living near a well funded and organised games club (Bristol UK) but since moving here I can only think of 2 or 3 games when the scenery/terrain was not all from my collection, to the extent of taking it to other players houses or a FLGS for games.
Generally I end up providing most if not all of the figures too.
Title: Re: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: SJWi on June 17, 2021, 10:47:01 AM
My little gaming group have a wide range of gaming interests/ periods. Almost everyone is a “host”, but not for everything. For instance I have masses of armies, terrain and bespoke gaming mats for ancients whilst others just have a favourite army. On the other hand I have zero terrain for 1/300 Cold War as another player has built up a huge collection, but I have bought some BAOR troops.
Title: Re: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: Eric the Shed on June 17, 2021, 11:11:12 AM
Fortunate enough to have a large gaming room/shed to store the massive amount of terrain I have mostly scratch built over the years. It always amazes me when I see some games how little terrain people use - a large number of trees, fences, walls and streams are generic for so many periods.
Title: Re: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: RSDean on June 17, 2021, 03:00:25 PM
And just a theoretical thought: I wouldnt bring any terrain to a game (unless asked for it), because I think its important to have a homogene style of the table, and more different sources of terrain pieces could hurt this.

I also answered the similar query on the Reaper Forums, for the record. 

I generally have some sympathy with BZ’s theoretical comment.  I do like to see a table that all looks like it belongs together when possible, so I don’t usually ask other people to bring scenery (buidlings especially) unless there is some compelling need, or I know that it blends in with the other planned stuff.

But, as a long time gamer, I own a *lot* of stuff, so that’s an easy position for me to take.  My son, who now lives away but within a reasonable drive, and I were considering this, and concluded that we could stage a house convention and fill 2 5x6 tables, 1 4x6 table, and three smaller tables with games simultaneously (all the tables we own), if we could find space for the three larger tables all to be set up. (It might overflow into the not-too-climate-controlled garage at that point.)
Title: Re: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: Elbows on June 17, 2021, 06:11:47 PM
What can either hobbyists or manufacturing companies do to make terrain less daunting?

Honestly, I'd argue that terrain is not daunting.  We've never lived in a time with better tutorials all over YouTube, great terrain making hacks and retail options for any budget - from the cheapest MDF to hand-painted resin terrain, etc.

Terrain has always been the neglected "third army".  It is a full third of the game's aesthetic, if not more...but is often simply ignored.  I'd argue it's more due to hobbyist lack of motivation/interest or simple laziness.  The same people who are fine playing with unpainted miniatures or even incomplete miniatures - likely aren't overly worried about the look of the table.  Whereas the hosting type players are likely very interested in it - a different part of the hobby.

I can barely motivate local players to paint their miniatures...so the expectation of them buying or building a table with painted/assembled terrain is absolutely out of the question.

It's incredibly frequent to hear local players say "Man, I want to build a table".  That means it's about $200-250 (if not less) and 20 hours of labor away.  Not a big obstacle, but it never happens.  That $200 will inevitably go into more unpainted plastic for their pile of shame...rather than building a table to play games on.  Some have a logical argument that they live in a small space and cannot accommodate even folding tables and a sheet of felt, or storage bins for their terrain - that is a valid concern/excuse.

Making a table is not an impossible goal.  It's solely down to the motivation of the gamer/hobbyist.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3JsHsPsXsTg/Xa3BzSm0HRI/AAAAAAAAFVI/Ee5M4nv-C24j8Vgvu37gnZSuC-RQ4KoOwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/OctChar2.png)

This table is simple.  It's a mat (can be replaced by cheaper felt), hills made from upholstery foam which is ripped up...spray painted and flocks.  Trees are Woodland Scenics armatures with lichen stuffed in them.  Fences made from window screening...and some plastic storage bins.  There's nothing in this image/table that can't be done in an hour or two at a modest budget with next to zero skill.

Now, no one is expecting people to go build amazing table, but common gaming tables are 100% reasonable and within the budget and skill level of almost any gamer.  It's just a lack of motivation or dedication to get it done.
Title: Re: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: War Monkey on June 17, 2021, 07:03:31 PM
I am very much a Solo Player. Anyone I know that plays, is more than a two hour drive just going one way. The thought of driving back after playing for hours just does not appeal to me.

How ever I do like having terrain on the table and I make all of my terrain. I really enjoy making new terrain for it's really relaxing. I use a lot of Cardboard and Chipboard for terrain making that is very durable, less likely to chip or break if it was dropped or knocked of the table. I haven't had a chips or breaks yet a lot of dust but no breaks. I have pieces that are years old and have held up very well with so little warping that it is not noticeable. I know it but if it was on the table you wouldn't notice.

My next big project is building a 4x6 gaming table and making 2x2 gaming terrain boards, the boards will have roads, rivers or just open terrain. However the hills will be modular to themselves so they could be connected and place on the table in locations or in directions needed. Much like Irisherb's mountains for his table.
Title: Re: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: dadlamassu on June 18, 2021, 05:19:38 AM
What can either hobbyists or manufacturing companies do to make terrain less daunting?

Making terrain does not need to be difficult nor does it need to be museum diorama quality.  A lot of my terrain is home made with simple tools - see my wargaming buddy's tutorials
http://www.morvalearth.co.uk/Terrain/Terain_Intro.htm (http://www.morvalearth.co.uk/Terrain/Terain_Intro.htm)
Title: Re: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on June 18, 2021, 05:51:53 AM
You make some interesting points.

For the record, I do not personally think terrain is daunting but it is something I hear people say quite a bit.

Heck, just buying a piece of aquarium decoration  at a flea market, garage sale, eBay and bringing it to games is the kind of first step I am talking about. But as you say some folks do not own, finish building or paint their own minis.

Your point about terrain being the often overlooked “third army” is spot on in my opinion and a great way to look at it.

So how do we motivate more players to make that first step to becoming host players?
Title: Re: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: Diablo Jon on June 18, 2021, 05:59:25 AM
I love building terrain and gaming tables I find the whole modelling process enjoyable in another life I might have even been a model railway guy. Building nice scenery doesn't have to be expensive (though it can be if you want it to be) but I do find it is time consuming. The hobby is a broad church though competition gamers rarely seem bothered by scenery I've been to plenty of shows where the competition gamers where using a bunch of cut out pieces of felt to represent everything from hills, woods and BUA, they seemed happy, but then for them I guess the fun is in playing and winning in an experience more akin to Chess (nothing wrong with that) where as for myself the painting and modelling is more important part of the hobby than the gaming.
Title: Re: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: sonicReducer on June 18, 2021, 11:10:41 AM
The description of terrain as a 'third army' is really spot on.

For me personally when I started gaming around 16 (20 years ago or so) my wargaming experience was very much narrowed to GW games. Being young, not much free money and moving a lot with my family with very little storage meant that building terrain never really happened. I was aware of the GW offerings but they were pricey and if I had £20 to spend it went on minis or a codex, not a box of 3 trees.

Now being older and owning a home and having a much greater exposure to other aspects of the hobby my attitude to terrain has changed. I really enjoy building terrain and there is huge variety of resources - some amazing Youtube channels for example. I backed the Kickstarter for Mel Bose's Terrain Essentials book and it's excellent. My biggest challenges with amazing terrain really are storage space (limited) and little hands who love to play with Daddy's toys :D

That being said I settled on Sengoku Jidai Japan as my main project a few years ago and as it stands I have 2 decent gaming mats, a good selection of MDF houses (MDF in this period actually looks good as the majority of dwellings were wood), fencing, roads, trees and bushes and some nice scatter pieces. I'm considering some expansions - I'd love a nice pond, some rice paddies and bamboo stands because hey, it's Japan. Also some more standing shrines would be nice.

I would love love love to build a big, static, beautiful gaming table. But due to space mostly it won't happen anytime soon - keeping things modular and stored well has kept things manageable.


That being said terrain is definitely a massive factor keeping me from diving into more periods. My terrain for Japan is around £300 or so, not huge but nothing I have lying around. Storage is the biggest factor. I'd love to play something Mordheim-esque but there just isn't space to store a 4x4 table's worth of buildings. Sticking to a single period has kept me honest at least.
Title: Re: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on June 18, 2021, 11:49:27 AM
And what I am hoping to spark is more folks who skip a box of minis to have a cool pond to bring over to add a bit to your table when you play.
Title: Re: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: Codsticker on June 19, 2021, 03:39:36 AM
I voted "Host" but I haven't hosted a game at my place for a decade. The reason I voted Host is that I usually contribute (either or both) minis and terrain for games though the game is played at someone else's house.
Title: Re: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on June 19, 2021, 04:46:12 AM
I voted "Host" but I haven't hosted a game at my place for a decade. The reason I voted Host is that I usually contribute (either or both) minis and terrain for games though the game is played at someone else's house.

Then you correctly voted as per the poll’s intent mate.
Title: Re: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: Reed on June 19, 2021, 11:34:11 AM
Voted "Host". Though I've never hosted a game, if a setting gets my attention, I try to collect enough miniatures to be able to play it with someone else. My girlfriend and most of my friends have a friendly stance to board-games, and they've sometimes expressed interest in miniatures.

Also, they gifted me a 3d-printer for my birthday last year, thanks to which my terrain collection has vastly improved.
Title: Re: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: Patrice on June 19, 2021, 11:43:15 AM
"Host" - although most of the time it does not often happen in my house, I bring my terrain elements and troops to the places where the games are planned (games festivals or other people's houses).
Title: Re: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: Mindenbrush on June 19, 2021, 12:53:14 PM
“Host” - I hold games in my basement, at our local gaming store and at HMGS East conventions, so provide both sides and terrain.
Title: Re: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: Wirelizard on June 21, 2021, 05:38:34 PM
Definitely a "host" player. At least twice I have had friends get me into games/genres they were already into, in the sure and happy knowledge that I'm incapable of NOT making scenery for games!

Happened with Infinity, and it's currently happening (slowly, because pandemic) with 1/1200 coastal WW2 boats...
Title: Re: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: Kikuchiyo on June 21, 2021, 06:35:05 PM
I'm a Solo gamer with limited space so I tend to try and fill a 2X2 with plenty of difficult terrain and LOS blocking pieces to slow the pace down
Title: Re: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: Sterling Moose on June 21, 2021, 10:17:14 PM
I voted Host but I usually only contribute figures and terrain when needed.  I have a lot of painted figures and boxes of good terrain but so also do the guys I game with.  There is not a great deal of crossover in our interests so my figures rarely see the tabletop.  I really enjoy the aesthetic of a realistic looking gaming table which perhaps dates back to staring in wonder through department store windows at Xmas time, wargaming conventions or looking at model railway layouts.  These days I'm definitely a guest when it comes to running a game.  Pre-Covid it was rare for my gaming buddies to stick to any ruleset for longer than a month and I don't grasp rules concepts very well.  I learn by repetition and I've gamed so rarely over the last 15 years that it's just not happening.
Title: Re: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: Just a few orcs on June 21, 2021, 10:18:24 PM
I am fortunate to be able to take over the dining room (often for weeks at a time)  put up a large table (8' x 5') at home. I have  a lot of terrain for a number of periods that interest me.  Two of my friends who I game with regularly also have the ability to host.  The other friend while he is not able to host has quite a bit of terrain  and figures he will bring round or take to club to play a game. He will affectively host the game using a table at the venue he is at.

Not all of us are fortunate to be able to have the space, money or time to assemble and put together a wargames table of nice terrain.  So I do not think any stigma should be attached to those that can't.

I do feel that players should be encouraged put together their on armies/warbands to play with, once they are certain this is a hobby they want to be involved with. THis can add enjoyment for the other players as it give variety of opponent/period.



Title: Re: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on June 21, 2021, 10:48:40 PM
I am fortunate to be able to take over the dining room (often for weeks at a time)  put up a large table (8' x 5') at home. I have  a lot of terrain for a number of periods that interest me.  Two of my friends who I game with regularly also have the ability to host.  The other friend while he is not able to host has quite a bit of terrain  and figures he will bring round or take to club to play a game. He will affectively host the game using a table at the venue he is at.

Not all of us are fortunate to be able to have the space, money or time to assemble and put together a wargames table of nice terrain.  So I do not think any stigma should be attached to those that can't.

I do feel that players should be encouraged put together their on armies/warbands to play with, once they are certain this is a hobby they want to be involved with. THis can add enjoyment for the other players as it give variety of opponent/period.

Exactly… not every player can afford the time, space and money to put together a table of nice terrain. So why not as a hobby community encourage players to get some basic terrain with their favorite army?  This way various players could come together with their armies and their terrain to play together.
Title: Re: Owning gaming terrain and how it may affect how you game.
Post by: Daeothar on June 23, 2021, 09:14:18 AM
Since (war)gaming for me has been largely limited to games with one regular opponent for many years (yes; well before this whole COVID thing), I think we have this guest/host thing pretty much down to a 50/50 situation; sometimes we play at his house, other times at mine.

So in that respect, I'm both in equal measure :D

However; my mate has more terrain available (although I'm rapidly catching up on him), and I have a dedicated games room, with permanent table. So I guess that too balances out.

However, since hosting requires more effort and investment, and we both do that, I've lumped myself in with the host crowd...