Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: trev on July 06, 2021, 02:49:15 PM
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Hi all,
We tried a game of Lion Rampant using Macedonians and Persians last week.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-x9-FaRLiPNE/YN9U5C2-OnI/AAAAAAAABbY/Krgjqr4tUkAMQ5RdZHgdjbI9fqgQcD-XQCLcBGAsYHQ/s2048/Persia03.jpeg)
I'd never played these rules before and had some reservations about the activation but it was a lot of fun and our first ancients game in ages.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-nT_hMUzK-gs/YN9XEUAG9aI/AAAAAAAABb0/CjApNUMAnE0KkRCBE8Kw6-Lpl5jyxE8dQCLcBGAsYHQ/s2048/Persia04.jpeg)
I like the game scale, especially as I'm poor at finishing bigger projects these days. My figures were old but only dragged from the lead pile of shame recently - I might have bought some when I got Jeff's AtG WAB book. So they are genuine ancients now! ;) My Macedonians were sadly defeated this time but I cheated myself out of a unit and forgot some rules that might have tipped the balance, so I'm keen to try again.
My basing is as the GW Middle Earth rules, which I did an army for previously and like for Skirmish games. The Persians are an old WAB army. The mixed basing was no problem. The 3" separation rule avoids mixing units up, although made it hard to deploy.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-PHfQ6X1wduE/YN9W2DIHteI/AAAAAAAABbw/QKwtY6z70_sJEDMn4ITCgYUFJ_YnkD2WwCLcBGAsYHQ/s2048/Persia02.jpeg)
Annoyingly my phone battery died very early, so there are only these photos. We used the Medieval stats as they were for this game, just substituting with the closest unit type but I will probably make up some more appropriate stats for our next game.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-0tEPBzgJHfg/YN9VHOjcxvI/AAAAAAAABbk/Kx1Tuo_4zUYAS269ZGaOTZ76dncko-HZwCPcBGAYYCw/s2048/Persia01.jpeg)
Has anyone else tried using Lion Rampant for Classical Ancients?
See here for the lists and a few extra details.
https://thebitsbox.blogspot.com/2021/07/alexander-rampant.html (https://thebitsbox.blogspot.com/2021/07/alexander-rampant.html)
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Will be using Chariots Rampant soon for my Sumerian troops (real Ancients, lol). There are obviously special rules for chariots and a lot of the troops types and special rules from Lion Rampant really don't apply to ancient armies and have been dropped.
Edit: for lack on manners
Forgot to mention your game and troops look very nice. I've actually played WAB against Jeff Jonas. Most of my army ended up on his long skewers. His ATG book is a great read.
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I have the armies for it, so I will give it a try myself. I have also heard of a version called Eagles Rampant that is popular as well.
However, I of course use Men of Bronze!
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Lovely looking game with nice figures, however old they are (bases are great too!)
Hope you have plenty more games with them.
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Nice looking miniatures.
There are some rules for flank and rear attacks on the Dux Rampant site which may make the game more suited to Macedonians. Many players ignore the 3" gap for friendly units, this can let you line your pike units up.
This is a great set of rules and very adaptable.
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Cool! Great looking game.
Lion Rampant is what I based my "Killing Alexander" scenario in WSS issue #114. Which builds on:
'Alexander the Great's campaign in Afghanistan - The land of bones'. WSS 109
It is simple enough to play through in short bursts. I have been tinkering with it for a couple of years adding phalanx rules and such. My variant is based on the article:
Nathan Ward, ‘Eagle rampant - Adapting Lion Rampant for the First Punic War’. WSS issue 80.
and:
Pat Lowinger, 'A Bronze Age supplement for Lion Rampant - Chariot Rampant'. WSS issue 82.
I'm still tweaking the web version.
https://ancientbattles.com/Alexander_WSS/Killing_Alexander_WSS_2021/Killing_Alexander_title.html
These ideas also build on house rules played in the local historical gaming club.
The main changes there are:
Activations do not end on the first failed result ( I have since adopted ignoring the turn switchover and allow each unit to get a chance)
We do not follow the 3" rule- but instead use the old WAB 1" rule instead for enemy units.
The key thing for LR is the stats sheet, and common special rules (although there are a lot of them). Units have a lot of diversity, but by having mostly uniform sizes this reduces a lot of fussy stuff. Unit cards allow players to quickly know all they need to play and since they know their unit was 6 or 12 models that's easy.
I'm putting together a Rome v Rome scenario. Hopefully it will be reportable soon.
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Thanks for all the comments everyone.
I think I might try 1" or 2" gaps next time or just play on a wider table as 3" gaps did make deployment difficult. The Schiltron bonus made it hard for the Pikes and Hoplites to attack, so a different phalanx rule would help. At first I thought I could just adjust the stats to equal attack and defence but my unit that moved through the trees should have to suffer some penalty and close order units should be able to move. It would have to be simple to avoid introducing too much fiddliness though.
I expected the turn swap on failed activation to annoy me but it really didn't and we had extremes of luck too. However, like most 'friction' game mechanics they work best in two player games. So I'd probably try rolling once per unit if we had multiple players a side.
I'll have to look for some of those back issues Jeff. Thanks for the numbers. Unit cards is a good idea too. I like having them in other games, especially for getting counters off the table.
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"I'll have to look for some of those back issues Jeff. Thanks for the numbers. Unit cards is a good idea too. I like having them in other games, especially for getting counters off the table."
This variant is another place to get good ideas for Greeks:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/32rfb6lc610r5r1/The_Peloponnesian_War_Lion_Rampant_Supplement.pdf/file
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/duxrampant/peloponnesian-war-lion-rampant-supplement-t967.html
This Roman Gallic Wars variant fills in with other ideas:
https://natholeonsempires.blogspot.com/p/caesar-rampant-gallic-wars.html
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Thanks Jeff.
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Thanks for all the comments everyone.
I think I might try 1" or 2" gaps next time or just play on a wider table as 3" gaps did make deployment difficult. The Schiltron bonus made it hard for the Pikes and Hoplites to attack, so a different phalanx rule would help. At first I thought I could just adjust the stats to equal attack and defence but my unit that moved through the trees should have to suffer some penalty and close order units should be able to move. It would have to be simple to avoid introducing too much fiddliness though.
I expected the turn swap on failed activation to annoy me but it really didn't and we had extremes of luck too. However, like most 'friction' game mechanics they work best in two player games. So I'd probably try rolling once per unit if we had multiple players a side.
Have a look at Pikeman's Lament as it deals with pike armed troops in the English Civil War - not he same as an ancient phalanx of course but it might give you some ideas.
At my club when using bigger armies for Lion/Dragon Rampant we adopt the flowing for activation:
A failed unit activation dice roll only ends the player's turn if:
- the player has already failed two activations and/or
- the player has already successfully activated 3 units.
It works well for us...
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Those are some lovely looking figures. The table, game and report are great. Thanks for sharing your work.
Regards,
Hitman
😎
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Have a look at Pikeman's Lament...
Good thoughts Andy. I hadn't considered looking at PL. We have so far played with the full turn switch and it has been okay but your idea is a neat solution if it gets tiresome.
Thanks for the comments Hitman. More pictures to follow soon.
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We played a second game last night. Mostly as before but with the Companions downgraded to Serjeants, 7+ move activation didn't feel right last time, and we allowed Phalanex/Schiltrons to move 4". This made the Phalanx a bit powerful on defence, so we're going to try making them Expert foot Serjeants next time.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-dZJE4yaNFcc/YPHIu6xuhPI/AAAAAAAABc0/jfU3IstfdJMiLJfJww2yUMoetR4EaQ5TQCLcBGAsYHQ/s960/The_Phalanx_Looks_On.jpeg)
Here are some more pics from the game. Full write up on the blog here.
https://thebitsbox.blogspot.com/2021/07/alexander-rides-again.html (https://thebitsbox.blogspot.com/2021/07/alexander-rides-again.html)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-42UFi1SEwW4/YPHGgFYhqSI/AAAAAAAABcc/OaKlg3zCmocEl9PZJEMv6AW4G7by7XDQQCLcBGAsYHQ/s960/Thessalians_01.jpeg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TyvxPjRUqEI/YPHHTLAoqCI/AAAAAAAABcs/r4m8amupOscImv6h2Cmf3Q1_Xqo588yGwCLcBGAsYHQ/s960/The_Persian_View.jpeg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZbxuhGngrdA/YPHIvetWAfI/AAAAAAAABdA/YXRBNmUE-Xol12Ur1aUne87y6ayJz1PowCLcBGAsYHQ/s960/Wild_eastern_horsemen.jpeg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-s1-LS4g8meE/YPHGfnTcKqI/AAAAAAAABcY/42mVwSb-AkoJP9H393DdTPKkmAiMu0k_gCLcBGAsYHQ/s960/Macedonian_Right_01.jpeg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TzXUWIkyvDQ/YPHIvFZF3yI/AAAAAAAABc4/Rtm5iB0zkig_RHtFCFTOZV-fFdtGGOLPgCLcBGAsYHQ/s960/The_Skirmishers_Clash.jpeg)
A victory for the Macedonian invaders this time as they held the hill.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_UGHFvqie0Q/YPHLfruh5lI/AAAAAAAABdQ/-vC_ptemik4wM1ap9IHgk6onV9mxNicUgCLcBGAsYHQ/s960/The_Persian_Charge.jpeg)
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Nice! I like your changes. Take and hold is always tough on the missile and cavalry army. The trouser boys needed some hoplites to take that hill :)
Adding in flanks and rear changes the dynamic also. That is my current plan for my LR Classical era games, add in formations and some ongoing melee ideas.
I find the LR mechanism is great for cavalry actions, but not so much for infantry slogs as it gets a bit bouncy back and forth. In most combats even armor value 4 results in one casualty per side, which means both sides can randomly bounce due to the Courage test. One thing I'm trying next is only the loser does a courage test, and a number of WAB like things such as rank bonuses can persuade light troops from not attacking the tough guys frontally.
But I do like your presentation!
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Cheers Jeff. I expect we will keep tinkering but at the moment it's fun and we're getting some Ancients figures on the table, which is the main win.
The Persians did have a unit of Hoplites but they were too busy holding off the Companions to take the hill. Flanks would certainly have helped the cavalry on both sides, so we might try that later.
PS One more pic I forgot to add before.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-7ibBTuD8Shs/YPHF_VzfpLI/AAAAAAAABcA/TILIF_PlIWETSR7q-aYZHCBEwEYs6mG8gCLcBGAsYHQ/s955/Alex_Rides_Again.jpeg)
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One of the things I like the most of LR is that small cavalry units such as your picture work well and there is no five model minimum that evaporates units.
Plus the countercharge actually makes wedges very effective at maneuver and the multiple combats pet turn can be fun and crazy.
In my Galatian scenario I once had the Companions knock out three wild charging groups in one turn. They eventually were whittled down to a nub but it was a crazy sequence as they zipped all along the flank.
That’s where it shines.
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That sounds great. In the first game the companions broke through on the right, charged the length of the Persian line and then tried to break back through to saftety on the left. They almost made it and routed the Persian general in the process but eventually went down under a hail of Takabara javelins :'(
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Eagles Rampant modified for the Imperial Civil Wars.
Played last night at the game club. Main battle units upped to 18 and 24 figure units. Details pending :)
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That looks good. Looking forward to hearing more about the game.
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There is a bit more here now:
https://ancientbattles.com/Imperial_Roman_Ruckus_MMXXI/000_Imperial_Roman_Ruckus_MMXXI.html
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There is a bit more here now:
https://ancientbattles.com/Imperial_Roman_Ruckus_MMXXI/000_Imperial_Roman_Ruckus_MMXXI.html
Inspiring stuff, Jeff! I was going to say that the town resembled that on the cover of Armies of Antiquity. Beware of the pajamas! lol
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what great looking games, all :-*
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We played a third round of Lion Rampant using Alexanderian Macedonians versus Achaemenid Persians a couple of weeks back. Somewhere in Egypt this time maybe. At least there was a broken needle that looks a bit Egyptian.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-MskMr6EZT7I/YTo4I0aS-xI/AAAAAAAABd8/DXYvmvOAhWENmeZpdtRuIFYJZlLchoq7ACLcBGAsYHQ/s960/Alexander_keeps_riding.jpeg)
I lost again, it's not so easy to conquer Persia as it looks!
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rt0LjJ8JpmQ/YTo4SP9PgvI/AAAAAAAABeA/YJGtyw9p0M0SnuUtc1UhXnCd6_r6Uwz0gCLcBGAsYHQ/s960/Battle_1_0909.jpeg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uZsiu4s6nCU/YTo4SNxhbdI/AAAAAAAABeE/45tp_bqx6uEch7BQLaTiBwBuVBb-R1RpQCLcBGAsYHQ/s960/Battle_2_0909.jpeg)
The game was fun and close again, so I expect we'll be back for another go in the future.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-wzhpzO3F40c/YTo4hi0wgQI/AAAAAAAABeM/ojK7Ucq7_4QVxhZ3t1YCk68Qd-tSQEEqACLcBGAsYHQ/s960/Battle_3_0909.jpeg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-mj_aVX0W5N0/YTo4h0ErLXI/AAAAAAAABeQ/kiaCKdgBiuEHPRoDUtEFclldisYCAeiFACLcBGAsYHQ/s960/Battle_4_0909.jpeg)
Another death and no glory charge for the Companions. Good as they are, they just can't win on their own. Using the Phalanxes as expert foot seargeants seems about right but you don't get many troops with such expensive units.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-EQVF_9L3k_Q/YTo4x9-LdYI/AAAAAAAABeg/G4gBT4r_Ko4Ex8WTlIG-RA7v4GDrkmy0ACLcBGAsYHQ/s960/Last_Charge_0909.jpeg)
These guys are the biggest thorn in my side. They seem to perform well in every battle but they are the Persian's best unit, so no real surprise.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-znkr6Rlr2X8/YTo4yIhwkHI/AAAAAAAABek/r0kWqIkXPFQ7hGYO_L_oaIozNpN93kFrwCLcBGAsYHQ/s960/Scythians_0909.jpeg)