Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: Tim Haslam on July 12, 2021, 10:36:05 PM
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Hi,
Just late night thinking..
What figures would best represent Moorish troops fighting with the Vandals in North Africa?
Light cavalry, infantry and possibly camelry?
Also when organising a Vandal army, would I use a single unit of Bucellarii as a bodyguard so to speak or would there be multiple units?
If I do this army I’ll probably use Gripping Beast plastics for the Vandal figures as I already have loads!
Hence my question on the Moorish troops.
Thanks
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Hi Tim,
I'm guessing by Moorish, you mean the pre-Islamic North African troops who came from the interior of the province and were not the Roman settler-locals of the coastal strip, correct? Although, they would certainly have been mixing and merging. After all, that part of the world has been Roman for 500+ yrs.
If that's the case, then I'd suggest starting with any of the Numidian boxes on the market. It is the same part of the world, and the clothing didn't change too much. You might want to kit bash with some late Roman figures to represent the mixed population.
But in the end, I'm sure it was nowhere near a uniform bunch, so whatever you want to do will likely be suitable!
Best,
LS
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And have a look at what Moors and Berbers actually look like; it's a few seconds on Google.
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Remember to get a phone booth as an objective marker. It’s their favourite target. ;)
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Don’t forget Tim the Vandals had Alans within their units,possibly not looking too different,though you may like to throw in some steppe horsemen for variety (and I find the Alan’s/Sarmatians fascinating). :)
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Thanks for the input guys.
I have considered the Victrix Numidians, as I’m just finishing a full Numidian force for the Punic period, and a little later as I’ve added imitation legionaries too.
I’m using all Victrix figures and I must say I’m very impressed with them.
However looking through my limited library of resource books, I’m finding moorish troops looking a bit more ‘Arabic’ looking. This has got me wondering when they did actually start to dress this way???
I’m also a bit fuzzy on the Bucellarii troops, as a single bodyguard or multiple units?
Thanks
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You see my question,
At some point we get a cross over from Numidian looking to Arabic looking.
I suppose this gives me a bit of artistic licence perhaps?
The Numidian figures from Victrix are an extremely flexible kit.
I could for example give them cloaks and perhaps a hippo hide shield to move them slightly forward in time?
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Important men had Bucellarii. The more important the man the more Bucellarii he might have in his service.
If your army has three Generals each would have a unit of Bucellarii with him. The C in C's Bucellarii unit likely would be bigger than those of the others.
As for the appearance of the Moors at this time have a look at the Lurkio ones in 15mm. I think they are a good example of what you are looking for. It wouldn't be too difficult to convert some 28mm Numidians to produce the desired effect.
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By the way if building a Vandal army you may wish to look at the book on the topic by Simon McDowell published by Pen & Sword. Simon has a good reputation as both a Wargamer and pretty knowledgeable about the period.
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The wargames research group book "Rome and it's Enemies" shows moorish cavalry looking very much like a Numidian from several hundred years earlier. In the WRG "Armies of the dark ages" book they show Moorish infantry for the initial invasion of Spain as wearing a loincloth and equipped with a small hide shield and light spears for some reason though those moors are clearly of sub Saharan lineage though the book gives no explanation why that would be.
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Diablo Jon, thanks for the memories. Both those books date back to either the ‘70s or ‘80s and may have been overtaken by more modern scholarship. For the Numidians Osprey recently released a book on the topic in their Men-at-Arms range. Covers up to 300AD.
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Diablo Jon, thanks for the memories. Both those books date back to either the ‘70s or ‘80s and may have been overtaken by more modern scholarship. For the Numidians Osprey recently released a book on the topic in their Men-at-Arms range. Covers up to 300AD.
For some reason your answer made think of this thread....
https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=114487.msg1433802#msg1433802 (https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=114487.msg1433802#msg1433802)
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Bucellari in this period were generally the warlord's bodyguard (the word 'comitatus' is more usually used for barbarian warlords' bodyguards. In some tribes/peoples these would be family members, other nobility, etc and they'd be well-equipped with the best kit and decent horses), so ideally one per army.
The Byzantines seem to be a tad different though as Bukellari in their early armies were essentially private mercenary forces raised by the Generals to supplement the regular troops (the regulars weren't necessarily as reliable and also having a private army did make a general a pretty powerful figure in his own right - useful when dealing with the whims of Eastern Roman emperors!) This is why most army lists allow more than one unit per Byzantine army. These would be Goths, Huns, Franks, Sarmatians, Alans, etc - maybe even other Vandals (they may even have fought against the Byzantines previously, for other employers). They'd be well-equipped (although probably not uniformed) and well-motivated because they were essentially professional warriors. They often made up a substantial part of the army in the Justinian era.
Hope that helps a bit...
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It’s all great stuff!
Thanks
I too have just dug out my old WRG books and armies and enemies books!
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Tim, I've just looked at my copy of the Osprey book on the Numidians. Although it says it covers 300BC-300AD, there is very little detail for the period after the area became a Roman province. There is one stele which they say comes from the 2nd-3rd century AD and shows some cavalry in short tunics, one with a cloak and all with javelins.....the classic Numidian dress from the Punic Wars through to Trajan's column. . I don't think anyone will be able to contradict you if you use most existing Numidian ranges, with maybe the odd "Late Roman" bearded head added to a few figures.
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Cheers,
Yes I was looking through the same book last night.
(I had bought it for my Punic Numidian project!)
I quit like the idea of this kit bashing, I’ve had great fun making imitation legionaries for my Numidians.
Out of interest, assuming I use existing Numidian figures for these ‘Moors’ I’ll probably convert cavalry figures to ride some camels.
These are quite large plastic figures, which company makes large camel figures?
Old Essex camels perhaps?
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Don't you need the camels kneeling to form a nice defended obstacle against pesky Byzantine cavalry?
Might be worth checking out the last couple of pages of this thread on the medieval board the OP wanted 28mm camels for his army.
https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=119599.225 (https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=119599.225)
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Chaps, Redoubt Miniatures produce a large selection of camels in their Sudan range. Obviously late 19th century but some may suit you.
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The mosaics in the Bardo in Tunis may provide some inspiration. From what I've seen online and from (distant) memory the late Roman ones show the typical LR tunic in a variety of colours worn by a variety of the people represented, some more North African in appearance than others.
As others have said there would be a great deal of mixing and the Vandals themselves had been living in and off Roman provinces for years so may not have look particularly Germanic in outward appearance any longer.
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By the late Roman period the frontiers and far beyond were very heavily influenced by Roman culture and symbols of power with most prestige items and much actual power drawn from Rome. So the late antiquiry Berbers were probably quite Romanised by the time of the Vandal invasion. Africa was a key part of the late Western Empire and it's lost arguably sealed their fate. Even the Vandals themselves were by this stage probably quite Romanised if memory serves. I seem to recall they kept much of the Roman infustructure and administration too. It was certainly common elsewhere and many so called Barbarians wanted a nice comfy Roman Patricians' life in their conquests.
For some Romanised Moors these figures from A&A might be worth a look. They have some nice camels too. Of course more classical Numidians will have wider usage and would serve well enough. Maybe a mix of both could represent more settled and wilder groups. Painting roman patterns on the shields and clothing would be another way to give them a later look.
Moorish Light Cavalry I
http://www.aandaminiatures.co.uk/view_product/?p=58
2X Roman Unarmoured Camel Riders With Javelins
http://www.aandaminiatures.co.uk/view_product/?p=42
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Cheers,
AandA have a deal on at the moment too!
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All I know is that Vandals have no respect for Council property.. lol
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;D
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By the late Roman period the frontiers and far beyond were very heavily influenced by Roman culture and symbols of power with most prestige items and much actual power drawn from Rome. So the late antiquiry Berbers were probably quite Romanised by the time of the Vandal invasion. Africa was a key part of the late Western Empire and it's lost arguably sealed their fate. Even the Vandals themselves were by this stage probably quite Romanised if memory serves. I seem to recall they kept much of the Roman infustructure and administration too. It was certainly common elsewhere and many so called Barbarians wanted a nice comfy Roman Patricians' life in their conquests.
For some Romanised Moors these figures from A&A might be worth a look. They have some nice camels too. Of course more classical Numidians will have wider usage and would serve well enough. Maybe a mix of both could represent more settled and wilder groups. Painting roman patterns on the shields and clothing would be another way to give them a later look.
Moorish Light Cavalry I
http://www.aandaminiatures.co.uk/view_product/?p=58
2X Roman Unarmoured Camel Riders With Javelins
http://www.aandaminiatures.co.uk/view_product/?p=42
Those are good points. In the end, we just don't know how far Romanisation of barbarians went militarily. I suspect you are right, they might have similar equipment, but on a wargames table if all the barbarians looked somewhat Romanish it might get boring.
Your post reminded me of the excellent series of documentaries by Waldemar Januszczak: The Dark Ages, An Age of Light (this can be seen on Youtube) and the Fall of Rome Podcast https://wondery.com/shows/the-fall-of-rome-podcast/
This sounds like a fun project. I hope we see more posts about this.
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Hi
I would readily join some sahara nomads ( looking like ancien touareg) from Greeping Beast. For the long range dwellers. You may have them on foot and camel mounted.
For a dive into details and if you understand french, I have downloaded free the book from Yves Modéran, Publications de l'école française de Rome ( a prestigious french institute in Italy) : Les Maures et l'Afrique romaine ( IV-VIIe siècles). You find it on Open Edition Books on the internet. Maybe there is a translation in english somewhere too.
Philippe
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This post gave me the impulse to consider a Vandal force to put against my Belisarian Byzantines!
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I made these a couple of years ago. A mix of Artizan Moors and West Wind Arthurians. The latter come with seperate heads so I used their Pict heads on the late Romans characters to reflect, as said above, heavily romanised berbers. My original plan was to use their picts as berber infantry and cavalry. Mixed with Numidians it would look okay. The point I think is either long robes or bare legs.
At which point I'd also mix in other barbarian types anyway like Crusader Miniatures early saxons or franks. Or even scots. With black beards, white garb and possibly everyone with leather shields I think it would look uniform enough.
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ESL4VbPewtE/WqfuDu5szsI/AAAAAAAAAzE/p007j0sJpdAUwHnvQ5ygDT6xCrM01ewNwCLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_20180311_201500.jpg)
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You need this book:
https://www.worldhistory.org/books/1874101019/
Sadly out of print and second hand copies very very expensive.
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Hi, the Montvert "Justinian's Wars" is "OK" but IMHO not the best from that series. The artwork is not a patch on most Ospreys . Information on the Vandal Wars comprises 5 pages of text and 1 colour plate. That said my copy is safe and sound on my bookshelf.
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Cheers,
AandA have a deal on at the moment too!
AandA have one kind of deal or another every month. I love their figs and have always had great service from them.
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Lots of great input, thanks.
I have a new question,
I’m using mostly Gripping Beast plastic Goth cavalry for my army, and the box set comes with a choice of a draco wind sock style banner OR a regular square banner, which is reminiscent of a Roman style.
I’m going to need 5 regiment standards and 1 army standard.
Which do I use??
I’m thinking of using the standard square standard for the units and a single draco style for my army standard. Is this correct?
Second question,
Assuming I’m correct, what goes on these Romanesque style banners?
Early Christian crosses?
Thanks
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The Vandals were Arian Christians and made a lot of that. It was part of the glue that kept their outfit together. I'd suggest that you have a look for Arian Christian symbols and use them.
I think their version of the Chi Ro may have been different the Late Roman/Byzantine one to reflect their theology.
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In Northern Africa Donatism was still a popular christian movement when the Vandals invaded.
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Indeed so, the Vandals though were all followers of Arius.
The Vandals endowed the Arian hierarchy with the property of the Nicene bishops and clergy as part of their state building efforts. Being an Arian was it seems an important part of being a Vandal.
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The Vandals were Arian Christians and made a lot of that. It was part of the glue that kept their outfit together. I'd suggest that you have a look for Arian Christian symbols and use them.
I think their version of the Chi Ro may have been different the Late Roman/Byzantine one to reflect their theology.
The chi-ro used was the same as any other. I did come across them carrying a bible at the head of their army on the Continent. I mixed dracos, labarums and large crosses for my Vandals. I am converting a figure to carry a 5th Cent decorated bible (they are relatively small and be-jewelled)
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This my current choice for moorish types in my vandal force,
Horsemen, because they are a bit different to the Numidian figures.
And I’ll swop the heads on the camel riders for Numidian ones, as I have a fair few left over from my other project.
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Tim, nice. Can you tell me the manufacturer of the cavalry figures.
Thanks
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Copplestone.
Somali figures.
They are beautiful, as ever.
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I’m using mostly Gripping Beast plastic Goth cavalry for my army,
What do you think of these? Pictures soon?
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Tim, Are your Somali figures relatively recent purchases? I only ask as I have seen other comments that some of the Copplestone Back of Beyond moulds are starting to wear, and the figures have quite a lot of flash etc etc.
Thanks
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I’m re thinking my army now.
Probably going to go all plastic now. Just what I’ve done with my Numidians.
I’ll start a new thread when I get going.
Thanks for the input.
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New question,
I’ve started putting my Gripping Beast plastic cavalry together,
A mix the Dark Age set and Gothic Noble set,
All the figures appear to have stirrups, is this correct for the period?