Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Topic started by: Doom Beard 78 on July 14, 2021, 07:50:31 PM
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I'm looking at my Fantasy Dwarves who have been a bit lacking for opponents or rules since 8th died. I tried 9th but found the lists bland and the constant tweaks irritating. I played Kings of War but it failed to set my soul aflame. Likewise I found Dragon Rampant bland and the command activation system was not to me tastes ( sorry DR fans but I have tried it)
Is there anything out there which captures that feel of rank and flank while giving you plenty of options to tool up your forces.
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Oathmark seems to be the obvious answer unless it's already been considered.
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Warhammer 8th Edition - if it worked for you, why not keep playing it?
You have tried a bunch of the more popular alternatives already.
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Warhammer 8th Edition - if it worked for you, why not keep playing it?
What he said.
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Oathmark may or may not fit your brief. It feels like an improved Warhammer in play, but the aesthetic and unit choices are all dark age/tolkien-style fantasy. There are noflying helicopters and no crossbows or handguns, but you could of course proxy. It's also a big enough game that you may be able to find opponents.
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For me the two obvious ones are Kings of War and Oathmark. The campaign system for Oathmark is a bit of genius. Also with Kings of War did you try the latest edition? the Halpi expansion also buffs up the magic and adds a bit more warhammer style madness.
The other option is to pick your favourite edition of Warhammer and stick to it. Because its a 'dead' system there is no power creep or playing catch up with GW. There are very healthy Oldhammer, Middlehammer/Herohammer amd newer edition revivalist movements online.
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As much as I enjoyed 8th, players of it are few and far between. The Ilford games club is having an Oathmark day on 25 July so , if I am able I will wander over and see what the game is about.
I think I may gone overboard with the Dwarves - I mean 40 handgunners, 30 crossbow, 32 minors, 40 Slayers!!!, 44 Dwarf warriors, 25 ironbreakers , 15 Rangers and 20 hammerers, plus 5 warmachines and a gyrocopter. I was thinking that I ought to get Orcs next or possibly skaven
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Let me toss my hat in for Oathmark, here. I got me back into fantasy 28s for the first time since Warhammer 3rd Edition. It is simple, sure, but well done and EASILY adaptable.
No crossbows? No biggie: it is extremely easy to customize Oathmark to your game style.
My one caution for Oathmark is that it is NOT hero driven, but resolutely rank ‘n flank. If you want one superhero who can take on whole regiments, it’s probably not your bag. Although to be fair, it is easily modifiable to account for those kinds of guys as well. Just make them a unit of one with multiple attack dice and wounds and Robert’s yer mother’s bother!
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We have tried T9A, KoW with with similar results. We are now harboured at Warhammer Armies Project. This gives us a proper WHFB feeling AND from our point of view redeemed most of the duds in the WHFB editions.
cheers Thomas
P.S. It's a private non profit project which also includes a lot of Warhammer Armies that never got an army book
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One suggestion that you might not have considered is Brent Spivey's Mayhem (https://www.wargamevault.com/product/110359/Mayhem). It's a brilliant game, as other members of this forum will attest - and there's a BattleScribe app that has full lists for Warhammer armies.
Mayhem's an 'element' game, but if I recall correctly, the suggested 28mm size is a 100mm square - so a 5 x 5 block of Warhammer dwarves, elves or men or a 4 x 4 block of orcs, hobgoblins, lizardmen or beastmen - or a 4 x2 group of cavalry. So you wouldn't need to rebase - just deploy your dwarves in 25-strong units.
Actually, there are smaller units (scouts, etc.) and bigger ones (hordes) too. So you could probably fit in most things easily enough without leaving too many on the sidelings.
From memory, the BattleScribe app has most if not all of the standard units from some fairly recent Warhammer edition.
Like all of Brent's games, some of the rules might seem a bit odd or counter-intuitive at first. But once you get it on the table, it plays extremely smoothly. And it's loads of fun. You can also design and point up any unit you want - as in Warhammer in the glory days of the second edition!
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It's probably going to be a bit tricky to find a copy at this point, but perhaps Armies of Arcana (preferably 4th or 5th edition) would suit? It seems to be very hard to get (Noble Knight has a copy of 4th on ebay at a ridiculous $60) and there's no sign of a pdf or functioning publisher or distributor (all the ones I find are 6+ years out of date) but maybe the LAF Bazaar could turn one up. Defunct or not, it was originally written as a better rules set to use WFB figs with, way back in the day.
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I think the main issue you'll face is that, outside of small random groups, you won't find a wildly popular rank-n-flank game. I think you should concentrate on finding 2-3 players who are interested in the same type of game and seeing what you guys feel like playing.
There are almost no tabletop wargames outside of perhaps 40K or AoS and the occasional "game of the month" from Fantasy Flight which will have anything approaching a large vibrant community - even less so in your particular area.
If you're passionate about a game, you'll have to become the momentum behind it - painting up the opposing forces, making the table/terrain and find a few players who enjoy playing it with you. I see a lot of people in wargaming communities and facebook groups complain about a game, by saying "No one plays it...". Well, 99.5% of wargames will never have a big thriving gaming community with monthly releases and hordes of people clamoring to play it at every game store, etc.
I'd get two opposing forces painted up and look for at least one similar minded opponent and go from there.
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Another vote for Oathmark. Its easy to learn and play, the mechanic feels like a streamlined WHFB. Although there are not that many factions, and it would hard to fit gyrocopters in it (a made a lot of homebrew units, s its not impossible).
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Elbows
I think you have hit the nail on the head regarding the gaming hobby in general; does not matter if there are a great rules its finding players that will be the difficulty. I must admit that its difficult. I've visited the various clubs near me and it seems that Oathmark may be the only real option
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I've visited the various clubs near me and it seems that Oathmark may be the only real option
Could have been a lot worse... What I see in my area, that WH40k rules at least 50% of the clubs, AoS around 25%, and every other (mostly Infinity, historicals, and other GW games) the rest. So GW has minimum 80% of the market. And I hate GW games (except old Mordheim and old Necromunda)...
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I think GWs success stems from creating a unified product in a unified scale. If you look at historical there are dozens of rules, then you have the divisions of scale which further compounds the issues. The established player base also is attarctive as you are assured a game against a variety of players
Why do a 10mm skeleton army for HOTT when you may find it next to impossible to find another person local to you who also has a desire to do 10mm HOTT
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Why do a 10mm skeleton army for HOTT when you may find it next to impossible to find another person local to you who also has a desire to do 10mm HOTT
The trick's surely to do a couple of 10mm armies - skeletons and orcs, perhaps - so that you can provide both sides and then - if you find an opponent who enjoys the game - get them to paint up some armies and do bigger games with the orcs and skeletons on the same side. And so on - and then you can use the armies for Warmaster or Mayhem or Sword and Spear.
I think you're right about GW's success, but it's also true that the historical players tend to use the same armies for lots of different games - perhaps a DBA phase, then onto Impetus, then FOG, then ADLG, then back to DBA. So another part of GW's success is somehow convincing a certain portion of players that there's only one 'true' game to play with a given set of miniatures.
It's a bit odd, really; the players who skip from one ruleset to another (whether in phases or one game at a time) are probably getting much more out of their armies and a much broader range of gaming experience - plus the chance to compare rulesets and find what works best for them.
Oh - another potential use for your dwarf army: Of Armies and Hordes (https://www.ganeshagames.net/product_info.php?cPath=1_6&products_id=357) from Ganesha Games. It's excellent and very innovative. You have to divide your table up into zones, but that's easily - and subtly - done with regular or scatter terrain. And you can use absolutely any basing, so it's perfect for getting huge numbers of different miniatures on the table together.
You can design your own units for it, but there are almost 700 unit types in the official lists. With 110+ different dwarf units, I think everything in your army is covered. Certainly, the gyrocopter, handgunners and slayers are, and you'd have several options for each of the other units.
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I agree it can be hard to find fellow gamers, which is why I suggest two things - one already mentioned.
1) Build opposing armies, and all the terrain yourself - get a mat if you need to travel and host it at a store, etc. Many gamers will "try" anything, particularly if there's no investment.
2) Go to the store and try Oathmark. Meeting the players is more important than liking the game. After a few games or a while you may find some guys you get along with, and then you bring up the subject of trying other games, etc. I met my local gaming group through the local 40K scene (a game I generally detested when I started visiting the common locations). I ended up playing a later version of 40K but more importantly those same players that I hit it off with became my buddies for dungeon crawling...Old West....WW2 in 15mm...role-playing games, etc.
So go try some Oathmark, if only to meet the people you may end up gaming with.
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I think GWs success stems from creating a unified product in a unified scale. If you look at historical there are dozens of rules, then you have the divisions of scale which further compounds the issues. The established player base also is attarctive as you are assured a game against a variety of players
Why do a 10mm skeleton army for HOTT when you may find it next to impossible to find another person local to you who also has a desire to do 10mm HOTT
I dont think so. It may be theoretically the same scale, but practically it isnt... Their newer miniatures are getting close to 35mm. Using their old and new miniatures next to each other looks worse than any other manufacturers 28mm miniatures mixed.
Yes there are different scales in other games, but the giant variety is mostly in historicals (which are no way competitors of GW) and not in sci-fi/fantasy. There the small ones (15-10-6mm), but I think the real competition for GW are the 28mm rulesets.
I think the success of GW is the player base (however as I see, a lot of people leave them, the there are still tons of old players), and their marketing steamroller... No other company has any chance today to come near to them. And they know and exploit that...