Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Colonial Adventures => Topic started by: marianas_gamer on July 20, 2021, 07:00:37 AM
-
I am looking to see what rules folks on the forum have to recommend for small scale skirmish games set in the late 19th century through the early 20th century. I am thinking for 20-70 minis on the table. Many thanks.
-
The Men Who Would be Kings from the Osprey wargames rules series. Possibly a little higher figure count than you are suggesting, but around those numbers.
Give a good game, seems to balance native vs European forces reasonably well.
-
Seconding TMWWBK. There are a few rules that might need a little house-ruling (like how pinning works), but overall it's a very fast and fun game to pick up and play.
-
Another vote for MWWBK - fast moving and readily tweaked if you want to add a bit more detail to particular periods.
Sharp Practice is great for earlier (pre-1860) Colonial actions, but rather more detailed than the above.
-
TSATF ( The Sword and The Flame ) with 10 figures per unit plus the use of D20 gave a good solution.
many companions sets, Sword in Palestine, Sword in Adventure...Sword in Tibet just few.
-
Tmwwbk battles are well balanced and results uncertain very often up to the last dice. You can play skirmish mode with half numbers otherwise you need approx 36 infantry and 8 lancers against less than 1 hundred pathans
-
Both of the above are good sets which capture the flavour of the period. Basing for one would allow you to play the other and neither really worry which size of figures you use.
TMWWBK is from Osprey and readily available as a kindle/epub version too.
TSATF is (I think, please correct if I'm wrong here) still paper.
Both are well covered by variants and suggestions for theatres and campaigns (TMWWBK online via forums and TSATF has published supplements).
I liked TSATF when I played, but now use TMWWBK and we have run many games with the latter at our local club, both as planned minicampaigns and simple pickup fights when we dont have anything organised.
-
Another vote for TMWWBKs. They also have a decent set of solo rules included in the rule book for when opponents are in short supply.
-
I also like TMWWBKs. They are a good example of a relatively simple rule set that allows you to focus on the game without getting too bogged down. I’m currently running a campaign using them but the rules are also great for simple pickup games.
I also play and enjoy Congo. Smaller forces with card driven movement that is based around set scenarios.
-
I also recommend TMWWBK. Simple rules but with a great deal of flavour. Easily adapted for any period across the time frame you have indicated and with potential to run campaign games as well.
-
I second Umra Khan suggestion..TSATF
very amusing..easy to learn and written in a friendly fashion..which is not the case of the clumsy and glossy TMWWBK...in my opionion practically all today's skirmish rules sets are rubish ..aiming at less educated (in wargame and historical therms) masses ...if you ..like me and a few of us cannot stand the masses and the plebs..choose the snobbish, meritocratic and NON politically correct TSATF ;) :) :)
by the way i also suggest you to have a look at classic/vintage colonial skirmish rules ,..apparently complicated but really good and detailed..such as those included in Donald Featherstone "Skirmish Wargame" or even the really difficult to find (but i can furnish a copy) "Colonial Skirmish Rules" by Mark Blake ecc..which is a sort of small gem to read even if you'll never game with it:
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/25814/rules-conduction-colonial-period-skirmish-wargames
-
I second Umra Khan suggestion..TSATF
very amusing..easy to learn and written in a friendly fashion..which is not the case of the clumsy and glossy TMWWBK...in my opionion practically all today's skirmish rules sets are rubish ..aiming at less educated (in wargame and historical therms) masses ...if you ..like me and a few of us cannot stand the masses and the plebs..choose the snobbish, meritocratic and NON politically correct TSATF ;) :) :)
by the way i also suggest you to have a look at classic/vintage colonial skirmish rules ,..apparently complicated but really good and detailed..such as those included in Donald Featherstone "Skirmish Wargame" or even the really difficult to find (but i can furnish a copy) "Colonial Skirmish Rules" by Mark Blake ecc..which is a sort of small gem to read even if you'll never game with it:
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/25814/rules-conduction-colonial-period-skirmish-wargames
Given the number of likes for TMWWBK compared to TSATF, it seems the 'masses' have spoken. :D :D :D :D
-
I’m frankly astonished we have only had two suggestions from about 10 people! Normally these questions lead to umpteen suggestions.
So not sure if Colonial gaming is much more consistent on rule sets used, or there is just less choice?
-
I’m frankly astonished we have only had two suggestions from about 10 people!
OK, I'll bite.
Quite narrow in respect of troop types and region being a small scale skirmish ruleset centred on Colonial African adventures (however I have seen people take it outside it's original scope successfully with a little work and proxying).
CONGO
A fabulous game but, to be fair, more akin to a wargame/boardgame/pulp mash up compared to a straight battle game.
However it delivers great narrative stories set in a period and setting I love.
The rules are wonderfully produced too and a pleasure to read/flip through.
-
I’m frankly astonished we have only had two suggestions from about 10 people! Normally these questions lead to umpteen suggestions.
So not sure if Colonial gaming is much more consistent on rule sets used, or there is just less choice?
I think TSATF has been a staple in colonial skirmishing gaming for a long time and TMWWBKs has become popular since its release. The OP did seem to be looking for something generic. If they had said he was looking more specifically, at say Darkest Africa, I might have suggested Chris Peers In the Heart of Africa ( or possibly Congo) but I'm not sure colonial gaming is blessed with an abundance of skirmish rule sets.
-
I have a second suggestion for a set of rules that I think every colonial wargamer should own, if for nothing more than inspiring game ideas: Science vs Pluck.
The rules themselves are a bit dated, employing the “wall o charts” format popular in the 80s, however it’s the ideas for building a narrative that are really cool. It’s almost more of a Dungeon Master’s Guide to colonial wargaming than anything else.
Essentially one player acts as the GM, with everyone else taking on the role of an individual officer in the colonial force. Instead of skipping straight to the final battle the game charts the players journey towards the final place of confrontation. Perhaps raiders abscond with some of the ammunition camels, or your column loses its way in a sandstorm, or the well you expected to water your troops at has run dry. The GM subjects the players to a gauntlet of events and decisions, which can play out on the table on in the theatre of the mind so by the time the final battle arrives the forces at their disposal are in a unique state, rather than perfect parade ground condition.
Then, as each player is represented by an individual officer(which can be killed!), they might have their own agenda that leads to interesting decisions as players opt to take risky actions in the name of glory, or divert troops to ensure their own personal survival.
It’s a wealth of inspiration on how to run a game that’ll be remembered by all. I highly recommend it for that, at least, although again the actual battle rules are not quite up to modern streamlined standards.
-
Science vs Pluck is a must for any serious colonial wargamer, there is a version also for the NWF.
-
Thanks fellas for the suggestions. I have has the TSATF for may years and it is not what I am looking for. I am hoping to do some small scale platoon/section patrol games. I didn't post a specific question because I am planning to game the KNIL in Borneo, mostly against Dayaks. I am aware of The Sword and the Kris but again I think that this is for a larger scale conflict. My internet buddy Juergen Olk had recommended TMWWBK and I ordered it. Unfortunately, it foundered on the dangerous shoals and reefs of the Guam post office. So before I ordered again I thought that there might be other options. I am particularly interested in rules that can be down loaded so I don't wait for months in this desolate outpost waiting for resupply.
Lon
-
Or maybe time for something completely different
How about Fist Full of Lead - Bigger Battles
No idea if it is suitible for you though?
Glen
-
For really little skirmish there are available on line some simple rules based on QD Quality Dice.
Simple system to handle around a 10-20 figures in all.
The system is based on various capacities and abilities of each figure. You should toss for each of them during the game. Could you make a try.
-
TMWWBK should be available as PDF or Kindle as it is an Osprey book
FFoL is definitely available as PDF. FFoL is a great fun game, it is very flexible to cover different periods, but you will have to do some work to make it colonial, but given your chosen theatre, I expected you are likely to have to do that whichever set of rules you choose!
-
Although largely forgotten by all but a select few and relegated to the dusty top shelf of gamers book collections there is a real gem to be found if you look hard enough.
Triumph & Tragedy
Most fun, playable and adaptable set of Colonial/Pulp rules published. Others mentioned here are all good games (especially Congo) but T&T is still the one to get.
-
It is available as a download from Osprey.
You'll also get it, and a host of other of ospreys blue books and other stuff via Scribd (both official and ahem "scanned" documents!). Handy site, worth the monthly sub.
-
Due to Brexit custom uncertainty and orders disappeared (as my friend Umra recently experienced ) I got a pdf copy. How I deal with new orders? Willie figures from tradition of London come ...from Sweden. Kind efficient service recommended. I prefer rule books but with pdf you order today and play ...today :-*:-*
-
Although largely forgotten by all but a select few and relegated to the dusty top shelf of gamers book collections there is a real gem to be found if you look hard enough.
Triumph & Tragedy
Most fun, playable and adaptable set of Colonial/Pulp rules published. Others mentioned here are all good games (especially Congo) but T&T is still the one to get.
Just a reminder that the base rules don't really cover Colonial gaming specifically (though can be used for it), but there is a Colonial supplement.
-
Bear in mind that TSATF is almost unknown outside the USA, where it enjoys almost mythic status amongst its fans.
Truth be told, it’s a product of its time (40 years old?) - clunky mechanisms and interminable melee dice rolling - but did a lot to popularise colonial gaming and, until recently, there were no better alternatives.
As previously mentioned, DITDC also works well for larger games. For larger ‘battles’ (outside the scope of the OP), ‘Battles for Empire 2’ offer a more traditional choice of rules.
-
I think 'almost unknown' is stretching it a bit, but yes, it does seem to be the predominant set among American colonial gamers, more so than elsewhere.
I own a copy of the (20th?) Anniversary boxed set that I bought from a fellow LAFer, many years ago. To my shame, I only got around to playing it for the first time around four years ago. I think it is a set that still very much holds up. My nephew/gaming buddy was particularly taken with it, and has been nagging for us to use it more often. I don't think you can go far wrong with it.
TSATF and TMWWBK are the two main sets vying for my affection when I get back to colonial gaming, though I have a Congo side project going on too. I wouldn't recommend that for the OP, not because I don't like it or anything, but just that it isn't any kind of catch-all skirmish game, it is very much its own thing and stands alone. But it might appeal.
-
Bear in mind that TSATF is almost unknown outside the USA, where it enjoys almost mythic status amongst its fans.
Truth be told, it’s a product of its time (40 years old?) - clunky mechanisms and interminable melee dice rolling - but did a lot to popularise colonial gaming and, until recently, there were no better alternatives.
As previously mentioned, DITDC also works well for larger games. For larger ‘battles’ (outside the scope of the OP), ‘Battles for Empire 2’ offer a more traditional choice of rules.
I agree but take care, here on the Frontier a Holy Rule war is on going on and you may be disposed for such considerations, if you are taken by the wrong faction... of course the right is for TMWWBK... lol
-
Years ago we played some RPG-ish skirmish Sudan games as this one
https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=60357.msg724425#msg724425
using a simple adaptation of Argad rules.
-
Still love TSATF and warming a bit to TMWWBK (think I just need to play this a bit more and get over the slightly bland presentation).
Science Vs Pluck was good fun for a couple of games but not something I'd probably dedicate a whole collection to if I'm honest. Very glad to have it in the bookcase though.
Depending on theatre and period there might be quite a few house-rule changes you'd want to make to either of the 'big two' mentioned in this thread. Skirmishes at this level are relatively simple in concept so perhaps fertile ground for attempting your own simple rules?
-
The most common consensus I see about TMWWBK house rules is that the pinning system is too harsh and needs to be house ruled. Basically, taking even a single casualty has a good chance to pin a unit, which makes them unable to do any other action than Rally next turn - but since they are sitting there immobile they’re pretty likely to get shot again, thus pinning them all over again...
So units end up in a loop where they can never get unpinned and it’s oretty frustrating. Luckily the solution is pretty simple, the same author wrote another Osprey book called Rebels and Patriots focused on North American 18th and 19th century combat that is very similar but uses a three step pinning system. If I remember correctly the first pin reduces your movements and shooting dice by half, second pin forces you to rally, third pin you flee the field.
-
The thing about the TMWWBKs pinning system is it's quite historical justified natives who actually made it close enough, to gun armed opponents, to stab them with their pointy sticks seem to be a rarity. Modern firearms in the hands of European trained troops were deadly.
Having said that when playing a game the guy with the Natives needs to feel he is in with a chance. My own thinking is that using the optional rules for limited ammo in the book are they way to go when fighting Europeans Vs Natives. That way regulars can't just blast away all game but instead have to pick the best use of their limited volleys.
-
I had trouble with it too, to an extent. Don't mind regulars with modern rifles pinning natives (that's what they're meant to do), but crappy untrained Swahili Arabs keeping tribesmen pinned down for half the game with their shonky muskets just didn't seem quite right.
-
...So units end up in a loop where they can never get unpinned and it’s oretty frustrating. Luckily the solution is pretty simple, the same author wrote another Osprey book called Rebels and Patriots focused on North American 18th and 19th century combat that is very similar but uses a three step pinning system. If I remember correctly the first pin reduces your movements and shooting dice by half, second pin forces you to rally, third pin you flee the field.
probably this sound better :)
I'm not very experienced in this rule TMWWBK but seeing videos on youtube it seems possible to shoot through another unit 'as long as' a single figure has free view of the target; the distances are measured from the figure more ' close even if much of the unit' that shoots may be out of distance .... and last but not least to shoot you do not need to have the front of the figures who want to fire at the target and all the unit can fire...
well if these are correct aspects of the rule I do not find it at all interesting, preventing the development of formations and historical deployment of soldiers.
-
I’ve considered modifying the MWWBKs pinning rule to give pinned units the benefit of soft cover. Think of it as units diving to the ground when shot and trying to keep out of sight. Means units are less likely to get continuously blasted at longer ranges especially by poorly armed troops. Regulars will still prove effective with modern rifles though.
-
I'm sorry Umra but it seems that you haven't digested yet my pathans jezails well aimed bullets since last battle...
-
quote author=giorgio link=topic=132322.msg1681139#msg1681139 date=1626963508]
I'm sorry Umra but it seems that you haven't digested yet my pathans jezails well aimed bullets since last battle...
[/quote]
lol lol lol
>:( >:( >:(
don't remember me ... even if then it was you just playing.... ;)
-
The thing about the TMWWBKs pinning system is it's quite historical justified natives who actually made it close enough, to gun armed opponents, to stab them with their pointy sticks seem to be a rarity. Modern firearms in the hands of European trained troops were deadly.
Having said that when playing a game the guy with the Natives needs to feel he is in with a chance. My own thinking is that using the optional rules for limited ammo in the book are they way to go when fighting Europeans Vs Natives. That way regulars can't just blast away all game but instead have to pick the best use of their limited volleys.
I don’t so much have a problem with gunfire pinning a unit, it’s the fact that they then just stand there completely passive to receive more with no other options. As a player it also takes away all your agency - like instead of having to make the decision of rallying now but potentially getting pinned again or falling back/pressing on - your only option is to stay where you are ( in full view of the enemy) and try to rally.
As mentioned elsewhere this rule applied to European troops as well, so taking even a single casualty can cause a feedback loop where your regular infantry stand there immobile taking casualties without ever firing back.
-
probably this sound better :)
I'm not very experienced in this rule TMWWBK but seeing videos on youtube it seems possible to shoot through another unit 'as long as' a single figure has free view of the target; the distances are measured from the figure more ' close even if much of the unit' that shoots may be out of distance .... and last but not least to shoot you do not need to have the front of the figures who want to fire at the target and all the unit can fire...
well if these are correct aspects of the rule I do not find it at all interesting, preventing the development of formations and historical deployment of soldiers.
In TMWWBK units do block line of sight and if an enemy unit is within charging distance of your firing unit they must target them and not any more distant enemies. This means you can deploy in echelon and let the front units shield the back units from fire.
Units in skirmish order are not considered to have a facing and can move/fire in any direction freely.
Units in close order and artillery can only fire within their front arc.
-
I shall throw my hat in for TSATF! The Sword And The Flame is very well supported by a huge community of gamers that have been playing it since the mid 1980’s. There is a digital PDF version and a multitude of period specific supplements for many different theaters, periods, and Campaigns. However only the core set is really needed for any colonial battles. Both the author, the late Larry Brom as well as a many of his friends and colleagues of colonial campaigns made variations for individual wars and campaigns to give a specific feel or unit specific data for say the Boxer Rebellion, The Indian Mutiny, the US Indian Wars, Texas War of independence, Lawrence of Arabia, etc, etc, etc… Just to reiterate you only need the core set and knowledge of a period to alter the movement rate, hit tables, and moral roles of the various units and forces. The colonial hive are always willing to help in these matters. Check out my blog on unit cards for TSATF to see what I mean about changing the individual unit stats.
Here’s an example star card for a unit.
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-o_dEJnYk85E/WiCZMiR7LjI/AAAAAAAACIc/tNpXBH95WmU1ps9lq9Kcy3IjGw0Gx4dXgCLcBGAs/s1600/TSATF%2B-%2BFrench%2BMarines%2B%2526%2BSailors%2BUnit%2BData%2BCard.jpg)
https://sgtguinness.blogspot.com/2017/?m=0
The one thing that I do really like about TMWWBK is the commander stats which either helps, hinders, or has no effect in the actions of their troops. This same aspect can easily be converted to TSATF by adding a +1 or -1 to various rolls of a unit for movement, firing, melee, and morale based on a commanders skill or attribute.
One thing to remember, HAVE FUN!!!!
-
I had trouble with it too, to an extent. Don't mind regulars with modern rifles pinning natives (that's what they're meant to do), but crappy untrained Swahili Arabs keeping tribesmen pinned down for half the game with their shonky muskets just didn't seem quite right.
Personally I think the vast majority of irregular infantry in any darkest African setting should be classed as poor shots and only hit on 6s.
Having said that there are quite a few instances of even European led forces being pinned down by Arabs especially when the Arabs are occupying stockades.
-
Personally I think the vast majority of irregular infantry in any darkest African setting should be classed as poor shots and only hit on 6s.
I give the majority of my African irregulars antiquated muskets which means they have a maximum range of just 12”. Anything above short range (6”) requires 2 hits. Better trained troops tend to just sit back and pick them off at range.
I do also allow tribal Bunduki with antiquated muskets that are poor shots (so hit on a 6). They are unenthusiastic but when they do manage to get a shot off, at least there are 16 of them!
-
I give the majority of my African irregulars antiquated muskets which means they have a maximum range of just 12”. Anything above short range (6”) requires 2 hits. Better trained troops tend to just sit back and pick them off at range.
I do also allow tribal Bunduki with antiquated muskets that are poor shots (so hit on a 6). They are unenthusiastic but when they do manage to get a shot off, at least there are 16 of them!
Makes sense when you consider
A) The general poor state of trade muskets in Africa and the poor quality of the gunpowder traded with Africans
B) The general African predilection for over loading their muskets with said gunpowder and using anything from bits of metal to stones as ammo.
C) The almost complete lack of training among African tribal warriors so they fired high and often from the hip.
D) the psychological effect of a loud bang and a cloud of smoke seems to have been just as important as actual physical damage caused by guns in inter tribal African warfare.
-
Does anyone know the rules of Björn Triumph & Tragedy.
I've always loved these rules.
(https://de.share-your-photo.com/img/27cc9204bd.png)
(https://de.share-your-photo.com/img/61c9b637e6.png)
-
Indeed, Peter. Don't worry, they've already been mentioned.
Although largely forgotten by all but a select few and relegated to the dusty top shelf of gamers book collections there is a real gem to be found if you look hard enough.
Triumph & Tragedy
Most fun, playable and adaptable set of Colonial/Pulp rules published. Others mentioned here are all good games (especially Congo) but T&T is still the one to get.
Played them myself for a long time. Been trying out other things lately simply because I fancied a change.
-
Are they still available for sale anywhere? Always like to check out different rulesets.
-
That's a good question I don't have an answer to. I cannot remember where I got the rules originally, it was many, many years ago. And I've got a vague feeling I didn't pay for the colonial supplement, as Björn was kind enough to send me a free copy (could be wrong there too, as that was at least ten years ago). There is a T&T board here on LAF. If you ask there somebody who knows might notice it and put you in the picture, hopefully.
-
Are they still available for sale anywhere? Always like to check out different rulesets.
Björn only has the colonial supplement book available currently but a reprint of the main book is forthcoming (I don't know when....I last pestered him about it just before Christmas). I am not sure if any of the resellers have copies left.
The original book does crop up 2nd hand from time to time but always sells quickly. It's worth posting a "wanted" ad here and as Plynkes said, drop a note on the T&T board (sub board of Pulp these days).
-
Im going to throw in my suggestions for:
Fishful er, Fistful of Lead, FFoL Bigger Battles and FFoL Horse and Musket.
I personally really enjoy these rule sets, they're very easy to pick up, very easy to tweak and modify and can be easly tailored to any setting. I use them for BoB shenanigans as well as War of the Roses nonsense. They're toolbox rules, so you have to design and stat out your units as you need them, but I find them very well balanced, interesting as a d10 system and I just love the playing card based random initiative system. And for a few dollars you can get each rule book in PDF form from the Wiley Games websitem.