Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: Koyote on July 27, 2021, 10:40:34 PM
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I've jumped into SAGA AOH with both feet. I've assembled an Epirote Graculi warband and most of a Lucanian (counts-as Republic of Rome) warband.
Since I'm such a slow painter, I don't like to commit to painting a mini unless I'm fairly confident that it will end up in my final list. As such, I tend to play games with an unpainted warband until such time that I am confident that it's 'a keeper'. With that said, I strongly suspect that Adepticon 2022 will include an AoH tournament, so I need settle on a list and get painting soon.
Below are my Epirote mounted HG, mounted WL, Samnite mercenaries, and elephant. The cavalry and Samnite warriors are Victrix minis. The elephant is made by Aventine Miniatures
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/9696/81YpSW.png)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/5166/h2EKeg.png)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/3008/LDVBSa.png)
Aventine Miniatures sells some very nice Epirote minis, so I bought a couple dozen to use as Warriors armed with sarissas.
I didn't know of this until recently, but apparently there's a controversy about whether the sarissa's shaft was made from a single length of wood or two pieces connected by an iron coupling or sleeve. The argument for the 2-piece sarissa is based, in part, upon what is thought to be a the metal remains of a sarissa recovered from a Macedonian royal burial cluster in the 1970s, in northern Greece. The diagram below shows how the coupling sleeve would have made it easier to transport the sarissa.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/7923/59WLct.png)
Victrix Miniatures elected to to model its plastic phalangite models with sarissas that incorporate a coupling sleeve. I like the look of this, so I reproduced it using short lengths of rubber copper wire casing fitted onto long 'wire' spears.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/5262/FdAO9j.png)
Below was my first go at a 6 point Epirote list. I'm still unconvinced the the benefits of the sarissa outweighs the weapon's drawbacks, so for the time being, I'm limiting myself to 2 units of 8 Warriors.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/7755/eGV2lM.png)
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The first draft of my list included 2 units of Samnites. After giving it some thought, I realized that I might be better served by one unit of Samnites and one unit of Levy javelin. The Samnites are faster and hit harder, but Levy can make better use of the Greek battle board. Plus when you combine Thureos and Aspis, the humble Levy becomes a resilient blocking unit.
I bought 2 sprues of Victrix Greek Peltats on eBay. When they arrived I realized that the peltasts are older Vicrix kit so the javelins are really thick and the detail isn't quite a sharp as their newer kits. Also, the shield arms are sculpted close to the body, so that the poses look a bit stiff and unnatural.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/8839/FcmyRe.png)
After ruminating on it for a while, I decided to kitbash my own peltasts. I used the javelinmen bodies and arms from Vixtrix Warriors of Carthage kit, heads from the Greek Peltast kits, and small round shields from the Iberian infantry kit. Overall, I'm pleased with the results.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/4310/gtmcUh.png)
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Last weekend I played my first in-person game since January 2020. We played a 6 point, Battle of Heroes scenario, using Age of Hannibal warbands. The noble Epirote Greeks battled the brutish Gauls. Both generals were rusty and bumbled about quite a bit, but we had a great game nonetheless.
Due to the scenario’s rules, the game ended on turn 4 when the Gallic warlord eliminated the Greek warlord in single combat. After tallying the survival points and bonus VPs, the game ended in a Greek victory, 28 to 12.
The Greek unit that saw the most action was my javelin Levy. Thanks to Aspis and Thureos, the normally fragile Levy was able to withstand attack after attack, and survive the battle.
The Samnite mercenaries kicked ass. There’s no doubt, they are a keeper.
Both my elephant and unit of 4 mounted HG proved to be relatively fragile, but since I used them to attack isolated or weakened units, both performed well.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/3326/K7aRaj.jpg)
Four turns of play didn’t give me the chance to try out all of the Greek battleboard abilities or truly test my unit selection, but overall I was happy with how the Epirote Greeks played.
We have a rematch tomorrow.
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Cool post. I look forward to seeing how the Epirote army shapes up as you paint them.
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The tubular coupling is pretty discredited these days (one military historian referring to it as "a load of bo***cks" on a recent presentation for the SoA!) as it would be a weak point
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Oh, This is going to be beautiful!
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The tubular coupling is pretty discredited these days (one military historian referring to it as "a load of bo***cks" on a recent presentation for the SoA!) as it would be a weak point
I did enjoy that! lol lol lol
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I want to test out Cretan Archers, so I built 8 archers using Victrix Greek Archers kit. Like the Victrix Peltast kit, the Archers kit is a bit dated, so I did some converting and kit bashing. I used heads from a couple different kits. Using a hobby knife, I remove the poorly cast daggers from the bodies, and added sheathed daggers that come from the Italian Allied Legions kit.
I wish the Victrix Archer sprue included bucklers, so one can make proper Cretan archers, but sadly they don’t.
None of the kits that I own include small enough shields to serve as
bucklers. I almost ordered a pack of Byzantine bucklers from Gripping Beast, but then inspiration struck. Using a hole punch and plastic sheeting I removed from the box my old iPhone was packed in, I made my own bucklers.
The hole punch makes fairly clean cuts, so cleaning up the sides, by shaving with a hobby knife, took very little time.
Once all the shields are glued in place, I’ll add greenstuff straps.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/7048/qbz1ky.jpg)
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Works well! I played one game with my own unfinished Epirotes last year and was a bit unimpressed, so love to hear your tips and tricks on what works well with them.
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Those archers look cool.
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Great tips for making Cretan archers!:-*
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Really helpful to see how these different manufacturers all scale up. Thanks.
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Another impressive Saga force build begins...
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Works well! I played one game with my own unfinished Epirotes last year and was a bit unimpressed, so love to hear your tips and tricks on what works well with them.
I’ve played 5 games with my Epirotes, and here are my thoughts so far…
The sarissas are are bit of a drag on the warband, but there are some specific circumstances in which they can come in quite handy -even if it’s just their psychological effect against an opponent with cavalry or elephants. In the games I played, my opponent took care to keep his mounted elements away from my sarissa Warriors and elephant, which interfered some with his battle plans.
To limit the sarissa units’ drag on my warband, I take only 2 units of 8 warriors armed with Sarissas. Rather than serving as the backbone of my warband, I think of them of one of tools available to me.
I’ve read online that the elephants have been a disappointment to many players. I suspect that the cause of this is, in part, unrealistic expectations. An elephant is a 1 point unit and, with a few exceptions (e.g., Viking berserkers), they have the comparable damage output and survivability of 1 point of HG.
With this in mind, I use my elephant as a second line unit, much in the same way one would use 1 point unit of HG. I generally use my elephant for clean up, attacking small, isolated units that stray too far from support, or in concert with other supporting units. An elephant is also a great deterrent for cavalry units and mounted WLs.
To help compensate for the relatively slow speed of the sarissa warriors and elephant, I field a unit of mounted HG, a javelin Levy, and a unit of Samnites. Of course, my warlord is also mounted.
Cretan archers are the go-to mercs for many AoH players, but for my Epirotes, I prefer the Samnites. These mercs have determination and free charges against units with fatigue. As such, it’s a unit that generates a SAGA die but doesn’t typically use one to activate. Also, it can move ten inches and is not slowed by uneven terrain. This helps offset the slow sarissa and elephant. With Aspis in play, both my javelin Levy and Samnites can close ranks and get 2 bonus defense dice.
Samnites are great at countering enemy missile Levy, and they eat Cretan archers for lunch. They can get to them fast, blast through uneven terrain, and since missile troops can’t close ranks, the Samnites hit on a 2. If the enemy has more fatigue than the Samnites, you get 3 bonus attack dice. If you spend a fatigue to lower the Levy armor to 2, you are auto hitting with all your attack dice. Depending upon the circumstances, and if your opponent uses the Samnites’ fatigue to avoid being auto-hit, the Samnites can charge again and again to finish off any survivors (remember, free charge against fatigued units), and do so without spending any SAGA dice.
With Aspis and Thureos in place, the Greek javelin Levy becomes a surprisingly resilient melee unit. I’ve used it with great success to blunt charges and set up the charging unit for a counter attack from my other units.
Overall, I rank Epirotes as one of the bottom tier AoH factions. Nevertheless, when used correctly, as a defensive, counter-punch warband, they can be a competitive warband.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/1264/00rUGX.jpg)
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I want to test out Cretan Archers, so I built 8 archers using Victrix Greek Archers kit. Like the Victrix Peltast kit, the Archers kit is a bit dated, so I did some converting and kit bashing. I used heads from a couple different kits. Using a hobby knife, I remove the poorly cast daggers from the bodies, and added sheathed daggers that come from the Italian Allied Legions kit.
I wish the Victrix Archer sprue included bucklers, so one can make proper Cretan archers, but sadly they don’t.
None of the kits that I own include small enough shields to serve as
bucklers. I almost ordered a pack of Byzantine bucklers from Gripping Beast, but then inspiration struck. Using a hole punch and plastic sheeting I removed from the box my old iPhone was packed in, I made my own bucklers.
The hole punch makes fairly clean cuts, so cleaning up the sides, by shaving with a hobby knife, took very little time.
Once all the shields are glued in place, I’ll add greenstuff straps.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/7048/qbz1ky.jpg)
Oh this is brilliant! I started kitbashing some Cretans a while back and had the same issue with the shields. I think I may just try something similar to get rolling on that unit again! (This also reminds me that I've been slowly picking away at painting another unit of Cretans (the Warlord metal ones) for....... some time now. Perhaps this will give me the shot in the arm to finish those up! :D )
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I’ve added the obligatory skulls, bones, and battlefield debris my Epirote bases. Once I add rocks and ballast to texture the bases, they will be ready for paint.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/6104/3D4zW3.jpg)
The models on the shelf above are my second AoH warband, Lucanians (counts-as Republican Romans). The Lucanians were an Oscan people who lived in Southern Italy. Like the Samnites, the Lucanians were conquered and subjugated by Rome, but never seemed to pass up the opportunity to revolt. They sided Pyrrhus in 281 BC, Hannibal in 216 BC, and with the Samnites and other Latin allies in the Social Wars in 90 BC.
There's not a lot written about the Lucanians, and their tribe and homeland eventually came to a bad end, but what little I've found sounds pretty cool. Below in a excerpt from an article titled Shield emblems in ancient Italy, published by Ancient Warfare Magazine.
With regards to the wolf, we should now consider the case of the Lucanians and – shortly thereafter – the Romans. The Lucanians, considered one of the fiercest Italic tribes together with the Samnites, seem to derive their name from the Osco-Umbrian word for wolf, lukos (compare Latin lupos). The wolf was the animal sacred to the Italic war god Mars.
Most of the models are from Victrix’s Rome's Italian Allied Legions kit. The warlord is a 2019 limited edition Roman Optio mini made by Warlord Games. I'm tempted to replace the model's hastile (Optio staff) with a spear, but the staff helps the model stand out, looks cool, and gives the model an air of command.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/3590/VGzVK4.png)
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I look forward to seeing some painted up. Are you going to go a distinct coulour scheme for the Lucanians?
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Great and informative post! :)
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Neat idea on using a hole punch and plastic sheet for the bucklers, in the past I have cut the pin off of drawing pins/thumbtacks to make small shields
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Thanks for the faction thoughts! Looking forward to seeing what they look like with some paint on them.
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I want to test out Cretan Archers, so I built 8 archers using Victrix Greek Archers kit
…
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/7048/qbz1ky.jpg)
With the addition of GS straps I’ve turned the white plastic disks into proper bucklers.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/2036/pobLnL.jpg)
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My Greeks are almost ready for paint.
All the models that needed it have been patched with greenstuff, and I added greenstuff cushions and ropes to the bottom of the howdah.
Except for my elephant, I've added rocks and grit to all the bases.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/1048/4Nlqru.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/9858/NRuY3Y.jpg)
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That elephant + crew looks great!
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When I start a new warband project, I tend to buy way more models than I will actually need. The extras end up in bits boxes or being used to make objective markers and the such, or eventually given away.
I've used some of my "extra" Aventine Greeks to make a Soldier and a Brute for the Old Feud scenario.
The Soldier is well armored and has the We Obey rule, so I chose a model that looks like a well armored commander. The original model had a really tiny head, so I replaced with a plastic head from the Victrix Athenian Hoplite set.
The Brute has an aggression of 8 and is equipped with a heavy weapon that doesn't lower its melee armor of 5/5. Aside from sarissas, Greek infantry from this era weren't much for two-handed weapons, so for my Brute I selected a large, well armored fighter and armed him with a shield and big spear that dwarfs the metal wire spears and Victrix plastic javelins carried by the other models in my warband.
The model's left hand was originally held up, palm out, but I want him to hold a shield, so I changed his greeting into fist. The model's right hand had short, stumpy fingers so I lengthened them.
The Soldier and The Brute
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/9555/EOQOuq.jpg)
Below are two of three objective markers for this warband.
The first are "extra" Aventine command minis. It's not an especially creative objective marker, but it looks cool.
The Second is a pair of minis made by Westwind Productions. It comes from Westwind's Death of Arthur Diorama. I replaced the heads with heads from an Aventine head pack. The model holding the dying "Arthur" wore a chain shirt and a long sleeve tunic underneath. I carved away the chainmail detail and sleeves and sculpted a shaped cuirass, short sleeve tunic, and bare arms. I carved away "Arthur's' right trouser leg and sculpted a bare leg. I left "Arthur" wearing long sleeves, mostly because I was tired of carving away at this mini and I had cut open my thumb pretty good
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/1179/rcC2z8.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/761/tN50L0.png)
Except for the "extras", my Greeks have been assembled and based and are now ready for paint. Last night I began experimenting with various bronze paints on test models, as well as color testing on textured mock-up bases. Once I settle on some workable recipes, I'll start painting Greeks in earnest.
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Phenomenal green stuff work!
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Agreed, Ogrob. I enjoy each of Koyote’s threads here on LAF - there’s always great conversions and customization to the figures!
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Truly awesome work with the Green Stuff! I should be taking notes, but... ya know... lol
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I've settled on a third objective marker. I built it from the Footsore Miniatures' Mortal Gods Seer miniature and Tropians pack. The goat comes from Gripping Beast's livestock model line.
Over the last couple of years I've observed a noticeable decline in quality of Footsore Miniatures' casts. It reminds me of those comparison shots of fast food burgers where you see the burgers from the advertisements compared side-by-side with an actual burger from that restaurant. Here's a photo of the mini from the online catalog, and here's a photo of an actual miniature. :(
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/7355/k7Mjxm.png)
The Seer and Tropian pack are yet more evidence of that decline. The Seer required some GS work to patch up and repair the shoddy casting. Rather than repair the Tropian's miscast sword and helmet, I simply replaced them with plastic substitutes from a Victrix kit. The spear that holds up the armor was bent beyond repair with a notch missing from the spearhead, so I replaced it with a metal spear.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/58/6Wm72G.jpg)
On a happier note, I finally got off my lazy arse and did some painting. My first four Epirote peltasts are (mostly) done. They should be ready for photography tonight.
Stay tuned...
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Love all of your projects, and this one is no exception. Excellent stuff.
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Koyote, that's quite a damning report on Footsore. At £4 per figure in UK they are at the "re-assuringly expensive" end of the market and I would expect much, much, better. They even make Foundry look cheap!
Regards
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As promised, here are my first four peltasts. Since they represent the poorest troops in the warband, their kit and tunics are quite basic.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/8793/WfvF8s.jpg)
My color scheme for this army will be red, black, and white. Since they are members of a great king's standing army, there will be a degree of uniformity that one might not expect from other Greek armies from this period. With that said, I don't want the unit to look too uniform, so their tunics will vary in color an pattern. It will be the red shields of identical design that provide the uniformity.
In their current state, the shields are quite boring. My plan is to add some battle damage and weathering to gritty them up some. I may hand paint some symbols on the shields, but I haven't a clue what to add. The most obvious choice would be Pyrrhus' monogram 'ΠYΡ'. The shields are small and the big central boss takes up a lot of space, so there isn't much surface to work with. Hmm?
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Great looking minis as usual mate!
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How do you paint the helmets? I have some Sumerians that need painting.
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Koyote, that's quite a damning report on Footsore. At £4 per figure in UK they are at the "re-assuringly expensive" end of the market and I would expect much, much, better. They even make Foundry look cheap!
Regards
I'm kind of wondering if it's more of a plan to run tooling into the ground before replacing it, or are planning on dropping the line after it fails.
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How do you paint the helmets? I have some Sumerians that need painting.
1) White primer
2) Privateer Press Molten Bronze basecoat
3) Agrax Earthshade wash
4) Reikland Flesh wash focused on the recesses
5) One or two coats of PP Molten Bronze mixed thin with water, highlighting those areas marked in orange below. The mixture should be thin enough to brush on easy and smooth with little effort, but not so thin that it acts like a wash or ink.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/5943/uSP8Cw.png)
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1) White primer
2) Privateer Press Molten Bronze basecoat
3) Agrax Earthshade wash
4) Reikland Flesh wash focused on the recesses
5) One or two coats of PP Molten Bronze mixed thin with water highlighting those areas marked in orange below.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/5943/uSP8Cw.png)
Thank you - appreciate it!!!!
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Stunning painting on the Peltasts and that’s a very helpful painting guide.
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Eight down, four to go.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/7964/m3bIIJ.jpg)
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Great stuff. I've been enjoying the conversions you've been doing and looking forward to seeing them painted up too. The initial peltasts are very slick.
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There's some brilliant work here! I had an 'AHA' moment seeing the cuirass and helmet set up as a trophy in the previous page.
--jeff
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Great work. I love watching your warbands take shape.
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Bad news. The Adeption 2022 tournaments will not be featuring an Age of Hannibal tournament, so I am going to put my Epirotes on the back burner while I work on revamping my Irish and finishing my Mutatawwi'a and Arab themed Age of Magic warbands.
Before changing gears, I (mostly) finished up the last of my peltasts. I haven't sorted out their shields yet, so the shield faces are still quite plain.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/3800/WfjOrV.jpg)
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They look really nice at least. Love the bases.
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Koyote, where did you get the info about Saga tournaments at Adepticon 2022? I don't see anything on their website.
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Koyote, where did you get the info about Saga tournaments at Adepticon 2022? I don't see anything on their website.
The last Saga Thorsday podcast.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HMIbGZ-YJyA&t=2365s
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Excellent work as usual on these. I will wait patiently for an update once you return to them.