Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Pikes, Muskets and Flouncy Shirts => Topic started by: Doom Beard 78 on July 31, 2021, 04:35:50 PM
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I've been slowly pressing on with finishing off my Steel Fist Gendarmes- some time ago I backed this on kickstarter and well its taken a while to get round to doing them.
Great figures but an absolute pain to assemble, small fiddly pieces which are delicate.
Photos as follows
1) 4 Steel Fist Gendarmes finished
2) Current footprint of the unit they will be in. this includes some Foundry Gendamres I painted a long time ago . In fact so far back that the doom of beard was just the stubble of doom.
3 & 4) From the shelves of doom, some of my complted Gendarmes
The plan, such as it may be, is to tidy some and fix the battle damage and to add some flowing banners . I already have a Venetian unit flying the standard of Marquis of Mantua who commanded venice to victory at Foronovo.
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Nice additions. Those Steel Fist figs are great and you’ve done a good job on the painting.
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Excellent stuff, you can never have too many gendarmes
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I should have 7 units of 12 Renaissance
gendarmes, however, 2 of these have a rear rank of Archers of the ordinance companies. That gives 72 of them.
I also have 36 Burgundian gendarmes
I did once think that with that ammount of Gendarmes that Foronovo had to be on the cards.
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Lovely stuff George :-*
I think I remember some of those Gendarmes from Lenton!
Has the historical bug rekindled I wonder?
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You have a good memory Aethling
I did use them at lenton when I did that 2 day IW event
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You have a good memory Aethling
I did use them at lenton when I did that 2 day IW event
I had some great pics of the Italian Wars campaign that were on my Just Add Water Blog V.1 which I deleted without saving the pictures!! :'( :-[ I really don't know what I was thinking ??? o_o
The same with a ton of various WAB Campaign Weekend pictures from Lenton spanning a few years! I think I figured that I had posted them on the WAB Forum so there they would remain forever. Little did I know Andy was to delete the WAB Forum and replace it with the Swordpoint Forum.
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Those WAB Weekenends were brilliant. I recall several gamers being unable to resist Nottingham Rock City and arriving on Sunday morning looking like something a necromancer had raised.
I think those themed campaign days were the best. Sadly the competition gamers prevailed.
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Those WAB Weekenends were brilliant. I recall several gamers being unable to resist Nottingham Rock City and arriving on Sunday morning looking like something a necromancer had raised.
Yeah, getting home hammered at god knows what time was an absolute requisite! lol
I think those themed campaign days were the best. Sadly the competition gamers prevailed.
Yeah, I think perhaps it is sometimes hard for those who did not attend to have an idea of the friendly spirit those campaign games were all played in. I certainly never came across an overly competitively players and I attended most years.
As for WAB tournaments, I played in a few, some (usually more local affairs) were fun, some not so much. I avoided the WAB GT as that really had a reputation as an all out WAAC event.
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More musings of a grumpy gamer.
I've got a game lined up of Italian wars for Friday, trying out Furioso. I have been getting the figures ready , re-attaching pikes, tidying up scrapes, brushing dust off etc . My opponent has , for some odd reason based his pikes on 40x40 squares and so, we will be fielding the pike on 80x40 bases with 8 figures to a base. I had counselled him that this way leads to madness.
Army comprises
2 units of 8 stands of pike , each 64 figures strong
4 units of Gendarmes, each 12 figures
2x3 skirmishing crossbow each 9 figures
2x9 skirmishing arqubusiers each 9 figures strong
1 cannon
I discovered that I was short of Italian pike and so I have pressed into service some Burgundian pike who are hidden away in the rear ranks. The "Spanish" pike block seems to be composed mostly of the same Essex figure over and over, lending the unit a rather monopose look. The front rank contains more exciting figures from Gamezone and GW Dogs of War. The proliferation of Morion helmets and blackened armour seems anachronistic for this period but it will suffice.
I have just 3 Gendarmes left and then onto tidying up the light cavalry some of which have necessitated rebasing as for some idiotic reason they were multibased on 50x50 rather than singly based as is my preference for light cavalry .
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More musings of a grumpy gamer.
I've got a game lined up of Italian wars for Friday, trying out Furioso. I have been getting the figures ready , re-attaching pikes, tidying up scrapes, brushing dust off etc . My opponent has , for some odd reason based his pikes on 40x40 squares and so, we will be fielding the pike on 80x40 bases with 8 figures to a base. I had counselled him that this way leads to madness.
Army comprises
2 units of 8 stands of pike , each 64 figures strong
4 units of Gendarmes, each 12 figures
2x3 skirmishing crossbow each 9 figures
2x9 skirmishing arqubusiers each 9 figures strong
1 cannon
I discovered that I was short of Italian pike and so I have pressed into service some Burgundian pike who are hidden away in the rear ranks. The "Spanish" pike block seems to be composed mostly of the same Essex figure over and over, lending the unit a rather monopose look. The front rank contains more exciting figures from Gamezone and GW Dogs of War. The proliferation of Morion helmets and blackened armour seems anachronistic for this period but it will suffice.
I have just 3 Gendarmes left and then onto tidying up the light cavalry some of which have necessitated rebasing as for some idiotic reason they were multibased on 50x50 rather than singly based as is my preference for light cavalry .
Excellent stuff mate.
I'm going to be waiting with baited breath to read what you think of the rules, what after a game you can recommend in terms of changes, indeed clarifications :)
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taken a while to get the figures in the foam trays-lol. we are using 200 point armies, not sure that I can carry a 400 point army ( though I probably have the figures )
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Played last night.
Our battle was quality v quanity,
French
1 unit of Gendarmes
1 unit of stradiotti
2 cannon
1 unit of old band pike (dross)
1 unit of landskencts
I had
1unit of Famiglia Ducale
3 units of condittieri cavalry
1 cannon
3 units of skirmishing handguns
3 units of skirmishing crossbow,
2 units of romanidole pike ( very average in these rules,
I found that I had no room to deploy and ended up splitting my cavalry between the flanks with a unit in reserve. My plan was to refuse the centre and rely on shooting to soften up the pike blocks . On the right I had deployed 2 units of arqubsuiers either side of the famiglia ducale with a unit of conditiieri in reserve . My plan was to focus the arquebsuier on shooting up the gendarmes and to use the famiglia ducale to aborb the charge of the gendarmes while the reserve condottieri wheeled round to face the flank of the gendamres. on the right I had planned to send one unit of condottieri to take out the gonnes placed on the far left , while the second unit of condottier were set to wheel to face the flank of the oncoming old bands.
The plan partially worked, the famiglia were charged, they counter-charged and beat the Gendarmes . The shooting proved ineffective. I was able to effect the flank charge, which did less damage than I thought.
We then ran out of time.
Here's what we found
the rules seem to be missing a few things such as
1)if you charge a cavalry unit it can counter charge, can it still counter charge if it has already moved that turn. Does counter charging count as an activation as in, I get charged by an enemy unit, I counter charge and destroy it I then get a pursuit move can I then activate the unit, Unclear in the rules
2) can you shoot into combat - the rules are silent on this point .
3) Troop quality seems not to amount to much , in our game Ordinance gendarmes charged famiglia duclae. Ordinance Gendarmes who are more expensive points wise and supposedly better roll 4 dice per base , famiglia Duclae roll 4 dice a base. both sides get +1 dice per stand for charging . Gendarmes have an ability where all non Gendarme units they fight ( and as the French are the only army with access to Gendarmes , that's all units) suffer minus 1 dice. So the difference here is 4 dice . As a 5 0r 6 is required to hit , this on average works out at an additional hit. Hardly, significant. I have a fear that elite troops are perhaps less effective than I might have thought. Early days and another game will be needed to asses if I am corrrect
4) Unless I missed something, ( which is certainly possible) at the end of combat, players test for morale. Based on the outcome the loosing unit may be pushed back 1 or 2 ( in 28mm these are inches) however, its not clear if the victorious unit is able to follow up. Given that pushed back units suffer penalties if contacted, I would imagine that the attacker would wish to do so.
I also think charging pike should get a charge bonus
When we reconvene in two weeks time we will try again
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I really wish I could chime in! But without being able to get a game under my belt it's very hard for me to offer any kind of constructive input.
Still, I'm very interested to hear what your thoughts are out there in LAF land :)
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Here's another shot. This is where we ended up when we ran out time.
The bulk of my pike are individually based, which worked fine for wab when I was fielding 48 or 60 pike but was really slow to set up when using 64 figure pike blocks . I may need to re base some of the pike onto 60x20 bases
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Nice mate. 8) Have you got any close ups of the game? If not maybe next time you and John get together?
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I left my camera at home ( I had so much to lug on the bus as it was)
Spanish in two weeks time. I am tidying up the Jinetes for that game . Going to try for some mass firepower
finished the last of my Steel Fist Gendarmes , I have a set of Eureka Gendarmes which needs some repair work. Once they are finished I shall have 7x12 Gendarmes units. One of the only issues I have with Furioso is the element basing somehow 3 figures on a base is not the same as a big block of 12 Gendarmes formed 6x2 or even a block of 16 formed 8x2. But other than Hail Caesar it seems that the element is the established bedrock of rules design
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I left my camera at home ( I had so much to lug on the bus as it was)
Fair point- I've been there! :)
Spanish in two weeks time. I am tidying up the Jinetes for that game . Going to try for some mass firepower
It would be very rude not to with the Spanish post Seminara ;) :)
finished the last of my Steel Fist Gendarmes , I have a set of Eureka Gendarmes which needs some repair work. Once they are finished I shall have 7x12 Gendarmes units. One of the only issues I have with Furioso is the element basing somehow 3 figures on a base is not the same as a big block of 12 Gendarmes formed 6x2 or even a block of 16 formed 8x2. But other than Hail Caesar it seems that the element is the established bedrock of rules design
I have found that with so many very good rules systems- MEG is a good example- I took one look at the basing conventions and thought that units just were not going to look like massed units of belligerents!
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I suspect that its the legacy of WRG basing and the need to cater for people who are uising a basing standard from 40 years .
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I suspect that its the legacy of WRG basing and the need to cater for people who are uising a basing standard from 40 years .
True. It is kind of odd that the size of the units were not "updated" as the same time as the rules etc.
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I finished off my last Gendarme, the musician shown below.
Work is begining on the general tarting up of my long dormant Italian wars figures , despite a long period in which they did nothing some of them seem to be showing some battle damage .
So here we have the finished Jinetes. An odd mix of Eureka Mounted Conquistadors, Old Glory and a TAG figure. The Old Glory and Eureka ones in thier plate harness and polished breastplates look a bit off for my tastes but I can't face getting in some more suitable ones from TAG. Finally the task of TLC on a unit of 64 Landsknects ( 1 unit of 8 stands in Furioso) I do have another 24 Landskects which need to be based up , this will allow me to field a 12 unit block ( 96 figures)
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Nive mate, nice :-*
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Two very nice units. Got to love a big pike block like that :D
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I'm now working on another 14 pike plus some guys with bug two handed swords to get that pike block up to 96.
I discovered that I have another 2 unpainted TAG Jinetes plus 2 additional light cavalry and some heart shaped shields so I should have 18 Jinetes. I was hoping to have this ready for my game on Friday evening and I have booked some annual leave next week so hopefully all will be ready.
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I don't believe that I've missed this thread up to now. I'm loving the ambition that your showing for this much neglected period.
Great stuff, keep going.
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thanks Olicana high praise indded. I have to say that I have found your blog very inspiring over the years
Tonight I met up for my second game of Furioso; Spanish v French 250 points . The French comprised
1 unit of Estradiots
1 unit of Gendarmes
2 units of bandes noires
1 cannon
1 unit of Swiss
I had 3 units of Spanish pike , 5 units of Spanish shot, 3 units of jintes and 1 unit of Italian men at arms
We played for about 2 1/2 hours until time at which point we simply ran out of time. Neither of us were close to achieving a breakthrough ; whilst some of this was due to learning the rules, it did feel very slow.
My plan had been to create over lapping fire corridors to blaze away with and to wear down the pike. However, at long range the shooting proved ineffective and even at short range it accomplished nothing. The problem I had was that I had too many units for the size of the table ( 6x4). The 4 stands of men at arms formed in a single rank ( as mandated by the rules) Are really unwieldy and hard to manoeuvre given that they occupy a 32cm frontage
In combat the swiss drove back the landsknects in a slow and bloody combat , on the right gendarmes charged into pike in a combat which eventually saw the gendarmes worn down and disordered, while on the left a unit of jintes and estadiots fought each other to a bloody stand off. My Jintes charged into the artillery but failed to scare off the crew
Some comments
1) Gendarmes seem to suffer little ill effects versus pike. A stand of Gendarmes has 4 attacks which rises to 5 on the charge, a stand of pikemem has 3 attacks per stand but can claim 3 supports for a total of 6 attacks . In the combats we played out 4 stands of gendarmes charge into the pike they get 10 dice as 2 stands can get into combat the other 2 stands contribute 2 overlaps for 12 dice , the pike men get 2 stands and then get 6 supports for 12 dice , so the combat is even Stevens. Both sides need 5+ on a D6 to score a hit - assuming average dice both sides get 4 hits and require a save on a 5+ to cancel out a hit. The Gendarmes have extra heavy armour which gives them an additional 3 dice to cancel hits, however as they are charging pikes they get a -1 to their save dice for a total of 6 dice, they roll average and negate 2 hits causing them to suffer 2 wounds, the pike get a bonus +1 dice to save as they are armoured, the roll 5d6 and save 1 hit, they lose 4 hits and a stand.
I wonder if I am missing something here but the pikemen seem a little ineffective at resisting cavalry. As the game progressed my opponent's bad dice on the morale system meant that whilst he suffered no real damage from the pikes his unit eventually whittled itself away over the course of 5 combats
We are planning a third game but so far I find myself underwhelmed by these rules, Sadly it seems that there is paucity of decent 25mm rules for the early renaissance
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Superb looking game and I am (obviously) green with envy George- still it's great to see the pics of the game despite my predicament.
Do you think you might be able to find some "fixes" for Furioso? To fill in some of the gaps in the rules? Or is it too early to tell?
As an aside, it doesn't sound like the author has taken into consideration the firepower generated by (inititially by Gonzalo de Córdoba, but carried on throughout the various wars in Italy). Maybe there's a way of having something close to "close order" arquebusiers?
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The Spanish arqubusiers are formed and can put out 8 dice of shooting at short range with 4 dice at long range ( 10/20" ) FWIW I think that the shooting ranges are about right and that reducing the effectiveness of long range right is also correct. Spanish arqubsuiers can re-roll "1"
I think its an interesting challenge as you don't want the game dominated by long gunlines but at the same time the arqubsuiers need to able to do something.
I'm going to suggest the following fixes
1) cavalry charging pike should lose their charge bonus
2) if cavalry are forced to withdraw , the pike should not be able to pursue, if combats are drawn the cavalry should be able to withdraw their full move away from the pike . At present cavalry can withdraw if after fighting 2 rounds of combat no wounds are caused. I assume that wounds means unsaved hits
I read the errata and was interested to see the resolution of a query I had, which relates to the way initiative works. If a unit has been charged and fights in another unit's activation what does it do in its own activation, the answer is that can activate and fight.
Finally I saw the Italian Wars supplement and wondered if this had stat lines for skirmish screens it did not. I really wonder if these rules were playtested or even had someone proofread them
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1) cavalry charging pike should lose their charge bonus
Agreed, that should be a given really.
2) if cavalry are forced to withdraw , the pike should not be able to pursue, if combats are drawn the cavalry should be able to withdraw their full move away from the pike . At present cavalry can withdraw if after fighting 2 rounds of combat no wounds are caused. I assume that wounds means unsaved hits
Yep, another given.
I read the errata and was interested to see the resolution of a query I had, which relates to the way initiative works. If a unit has been charged and fights in another unit's activation what does it do in its own activation, the answer is that can activate and fight.
???
Finally I saw the Italian Wars supplement and wondered if this had stat lines for skirmish screens it did not. I really wonder if these rules were playtested or even had someone proofread them
I really can't comment. Maybe Ken akak Yarkshire Gamer can shed some light?
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clarifying my point about activation it means that a unit can fight more than once. However, if the unit has already than it only does so with 1 dice.
I must say I find it amusing that people are looking to Ken as the oracle on these rules rather than the rules writer or publisher. Ken said that he does not use points and has not even looked at the army lists so I assume that he has invented his own stats for the units. I am slowly working through the last of my landskects, sadly I have knackered my brushes and will need to head out to teh art shop for supplies.
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clarifying my point about activation it means that a unit can fight more than once. However, if the unit has already than it only does so with 1 dice.
Got you. Seems excessive?
I must say I find it amusing that people are looking to Ken as the oracle on these rules rather than the rules writer or publisher. Ken said that he does not use points and has not even looked at the army lists so I assume that he has invented his own stats for the units. I am slowly working through the last of my landskects, sadly I have knackered my brushes and will need to head out to teh art shop for supplies.
It's all I have- you and Ken are the only people I know who have used the rules lol
I'm not sure that the author has been very communicative? I would be wrong?
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I had noticed that there had hardly been a landslide of responses to my rules queries. I think that if I persevere with these rules that I may need to have so many house rules that they may be quite different. My guess is that there are so many rules out there that it is hard for anything to build any traction, also as I was driven into exile from historical for 2 years ( I had some bad experiences at a certain club) I am a bit out on the outside looking in as regards what is actually popular. So, really I have no idea if people are playing the early renaissance in 28mm and what rules, they are using.
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I finished the tarting up of the landsknects . this is a unit of 96 measuring 12x8 for a unit footprint of 240x160mm. I discovered that I have various landsknechts figures with big swords ( most of them GW figures from the early 90's) So they are on the painting desk after the remaining 2 Jintes I am finishing off
To quote Hannibal " I love it when a plan comes together"
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Lovely work George :-*
Hannibal Barca would be proud ;D :D
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I was thinking of John "Hannibal" Smith rather than Barca
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I was thinking of John "Hannibal" Smith rather than Barca
I had to google John "Hannibal" Smith lol
I (for some reason) avoided the A-Team like the plague when I was a kid ??? lol
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weekly update- one Jinete
Spanish and imperialist aequebusiers . I am down to just 2 unpianted Jinetes and all my renaissance figures will be painted,. I do have a load of GW Empire/Dogs of war figures but I believe that they are fantasy figures
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Your collection is excellent, let me start off with that.
As for the Furioso rules, a friend and I did try them a couple years back. There were some cool things about them but to us they just took too long or my armies were too big. But I like big games! Anyhow after a good four hours of play we weren't even close to getting a decision. And since I was wanting to bring my Italian Wars stuff to a few conventions, I realized this rules set will never work for it.
I switched to To the Strongest with modifications for the Italian wars. That allowed us to finish a game and is a fun system in addition.
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MGH, I have a third game scheduled of Furioso . I was trying to make sense of the rules for combats involving multiple units, as I have read it, it appears that a unit could potentially fight 3 times in one round . I played To the strongest but it never clicked for me, plus I don't like grids. I am now currently tidying up my Spanish, a process of re-ataching p[ikes, fixing scratches etc I've attached a photo of the finished Jinete unit ( I added another 3 ) plus a unit of skirmishers with rocky ground and my take on collenella.
As regards Furioso, the rules do not really model collenellas; the Spanish pike do not have any supporting arqubeusiers and are instead screened by crossbow (!?)
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A lovely collection you have there.
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lovely units, especially the jinetes!
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Some lovely looking units. I especially like the skirmishers amongst the rocks 👍
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Thanks for the comments,. Other than the Spanish Swordsman I have photographed my collection. I have zero unpainted renaissance figures at the moment. Furioso really failed to set my heart aflame. So, I cannot see myself getting anymore figures.
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Gorgeous looking Italian wars figures, haven't tried furiso yet,have tried to the strongest for renaissance but last game was pike and shot ( warlord) which works for me but I know it's a bit marmite( love it or hate it!)
Best Iain
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clarifying my point about activation it means that a unit can fight more than once. However, if the unit has already than it only does so with 1 dice.
I must say I find it amusing that people are looking to Ken as the oracle on these rules rather than the rules writer or publisher. Ken said that he does not use points and has not even looked at the army lists so I assume that he has invented his own stats for the units. I am slowly working through the last of my landskects, sadly I have knackered my brushes and will need to head out to teh art shop for supplies.
Hi,
I've been on holiday and missed the thread so apologies for that.
Funnily enough I responded to some rule queries via email tonight and sent out my fast play sheet to another group. I commented in that correspondence that I seemed to be doing more explaining and work on these rules than the author (who I have never been in contact with). The video play throughs I did a couple of years back have been watched a hell of a lot so people seem to come to me. Added to that the author doesn't seem to be that forthcoming with replies.
The rules we use now are modified a fair bit from the printed version and having played them quite extensively now, I can say they work really well for us.
In answer to your question above, you are a few feet wide of the mark. You are correct that I don't play points, however I do use the Army Lists in the book for unit stats. Notably there are a load of missing units in the lists and I have produced my own stats for those.
The rules themselves are poorly put together and some sections that have quite a large effect on a particular outcome is often pages away from the thing it effects. It desperately needed a playsheet to tie it all together like a good rug.
There is a lot of questions kicking around on the thread, I will try and cherry pick answers, but if I miss anything let me know. Anything I say is my solution BTW and not the authors lol
Units fight on their activation so if a melee has occurred and the units are still in contact they will fight again when the second unit activates. Like this very old school goes back to the old days of three rounds of combat per turn !
I can't see a bit where Pike would pursue Cavalry, only a Cavalry pursuit section. If you've stuck you huge lump of armoured horse flesh into a Pike Block you deserve all you get, if you allow people to withdraw from a bad decision it will become a hit and run tactic, slowing or stopping Pike Block movement.
Not sure why you would need a Stat line for a skirmish screen ? They are the same troop type and Shot and just lose 1d6 when firing.
Regards your query about Gendarme vs Pike, casualties tend to be pretty similar, where the Pike tend to win is in the Close Combat Morale phase. Unless they have lost a lot of men (or your Gendarme are too big or your Pike too small) the Pike should always be 3 times bigger than your Cavalry giving them a 3d6 advantage in the CCM Phase. The Block also has a huge advantage in numbers to adsorb casualties.
In the games we have played, Gendarme / Heavy Cavalry do not perform well vs good quality Pike (Landsknecht and especially Swiss) they usually hold them up for a turn and then get wiped out.
I think I like the rules so much because they do have holes in, which means I can mould them into what I want. BTW adding Generals in made a massive effect on the game in a positive way.
Regards Ken
Unofficial and definitely unpaid Furioso rule advisor lol
And Full Time Yarkshire Gamer
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Apologies Ken, I had misunderstood some of your earlier posts. I am very pleased that you are enjoying tehse rules but they failed to float my boat and I have abandoned the rules( gave my copy away)
Being somewhat underwhelmed by the rules for early renaissance ( not interested in grids so TTS is out of the window, the FOG system is not me) I've decided to pack the figures away. Chaps at the club near me are all into Oathmark so I am now painting Elves and am in full on nostalgia mode. I can't see myself posting furthr on ths board