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Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Frostgrave => Topic started by: Grumpy Gnome on August 10, 2021, 10:56:11 AM

Title: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on August 10, 2021, 10:56:11 AM
So here is the thing. When Mrs. GG and I were trying to decide what genres to focus on  for our analog tabletop gaming a couple of years ago (when I gave up PC gaming), one of the things my wife liked were the Games Workshop Idoneth Deepkin… but mostly because she thought they were underwater minis. She was keen to play an underwater game. I explained the background of the the Idoneth and Age of Sigmar. It put her off.

But she was still very keen to do some sort of underwater table top gaming. We looked around a bit but no game really caught us.

I kind of liked the idea of Kharadron dwarves being underwater minis, seems an easy leap with the aesthetics but still… not convinced.

She really likes all the underwater minis in Reaper Bones V but since we have no game for them we did not add them to our pledge since we do not have the resources for “display only” minis.

Then I saw this old blog post…

http://therenaissancetroll.blogspot.com/2020/06/underwater-adventuring-rules.html#comment-form

And I thought about the Avery scenario in Frostgrave…..

What if there was a giant magical aquarium?

Or maybe a portal to the Ghost Archipelago?

Seems like these ideas have potential but then there is the question of balancing the monster stats.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: Chief Lackey Rich on August 10, 2021, 12:10:17 PM
Not to derail this, but did you look at Deep Wars from Antimatter Games when you were hunting for rules?  Uses a variant of Ganesha's "Song of Things & Other Things" game engine, has a pretty good approach for 3D combat and movement, offers a fair range of exotic underwater figs (which are now being produced and sold through Dark Sword Minis, but that's another story).  If you didn't see it already, it's worth a look.

Sticking to the Frostgrave engine, I like the giant aquarium idea, although you could take a page from an old TTRPG campaign I played in where the evil wizard big bad had a normal-sized aquarium but stocked it with specimens he'd miniaturized, including the PCs.  Maybe a scenario where the crews are at risk of being suddenly shrunken and sunken by a malfunctioning aquarium and victims have to deal with the aquatic monsters inside (no doubt guarding some sweet loot) until someone manages to crack the tank (from inside or out) and let everything come spilling out as they grow to full size.  Do a separate table for the lab and for the inside of the aquarium itself.

You could also have some fun with a "Snit's Revenge" style game (it's an old TSR boardgame if that's Greek to you) where the table is actually the inside of a gigantic water elemental or sea monster or somesuch that's swallowed/engulfed the crews and they're trying to loot the thing's innards as they search for a way out or a vital organ to kill the beastie.
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on August 10, 2021, 12:24:39 PM
We did look at Deep Wars… the artwork and minis anyway, not the rules so much. Mrs. GG was not a fan. I liked a couple but not enough to push for it. Looking back at it. Ow, I do not recall seeing the Shadow Sea part… lots of minis in there appeal to me but they are land based and a bit pricey. Great for Ghost Archipelago (and that part our Tarnished Splendor project…. The Silver Bayonet is likely going to play a role in our Tarnished Splendor plans).

Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: Chief Lackey Rich on August 10, 2021, 01:30:00 PM
Yeah, they've always been a bit steep for my tastes as well, but there are some spiffy figs in the two ranges.  Lot of nice Bob Olley sculpts.  Some of their resin terrain's pretty cool too, and not quite as costly - the fungus stuff, anyway.
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on August 10, 2021, 02:25:16 PM
Fungi appeal to my Gnomish roots.
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: jetengine on August 10, 2021, 02:53:06 PM
Yeah, they've always been a bit steep for my tastes as well, but there are some spiffy figs in the two ranges.  Lot of nice Bob Olley sculpts.  Some of their resin terrain's pretty cool too, and not quite as costly - the fungus stuff, anyway.

Same, love the idea and setting (Renaissance, magitech, deep sea skirmish? Friggen awesome!) but its just too expensive.

Regarding frostgrave though. Maybe theres some awesome loot at the bottom of a frozen lake. Both wizards use magic to ensure their gang dont freeze and can breathe...but this limits the wizards abilities. Only one spell per turn and no enhancing? Everyone has the leap spell active (swimming?)
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: Chief Lackey Rich on August 10, 2021, 03:22:14 PM
Fungi appeal to my Gnomish roots.

Who doesn't love a good fungus?

You've seen the Mortal Arrow stuff, right?  They ran a whole kickstarter for fungal monsters.  D&D inspired but some figs that'd be great elsewhere.

https://www.mortalarrow.com/bazaar/mortal-arrow-miniatures/warren-of-vile-fungi/

Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on August 10, 2021, 03:53:12 PM
Who doesn't love a good fungus?

You've seen the Mortal Arrow stuff, right?  They ran a whole kickstarter for fungal monsters.  D&D inspired but some figs that'd be great elsewhere.

https://www.mortalarrow.com/bazaar/mortal-arrow-miniatures/warren-of-vile-fungi/

I am aware of their pieces. We missed their last KS due to cash flow issues.
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: fastolfrus on August 10, 2021, 06:11:25 PM
Same, love the idea and setting (Renaissance, magitech, deep sea skirmish? Friggen awesome!) but its just too expensive.

Regarding frostgrave though. Maybe theres some awesome loot at the bottom of a frozen lake. Both wizards use magic to ensure their gang dont freeze and can breathe...but this limits the wizards abilities. Only one spell per turn and no enhancing? Everyone has the leap spell active (swimming?)


Or just give your wizard a couple of extra spell choices from "Bedknobs & broomsticks"?

Some spells (and some weapons e.g. bows) wouldn't work underwater, but certainly one worth looking at.
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on August 10, 2021, 06:25:31 PM
While undead and constructs can avoid the breathing issue, there would have to be a work around for everyone else.

Not sure how I feel about how most weapons would be ineffective due to the nature of water resistance.
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: Chief Lackey Rich on August 10, 2021, 07:04:06 PM
While undead and constructs can avoid the breathing issue, there would have to be a work around for everyone else.

Hmmm.  How's about a table with a sizable body of deep water that contains at the central loot and two of the others resting on the bottom at least 6" below the surface, with the other two loot on dry land and a 1" "shelf" of shallow water at the perimeter of the deep water.  Put four(?) mystic fountains evenly around the edge of the water, and any model can use a move (or regular) action to drink from a fountain when in contact, gaining Aquatic (not Amphibious, they're very different) for its next five(?) activations, at which point it wears off till you drink again.  Moving underwater with Aquatic (or just swimming) counts vertical distances as well as horizontal, loot slows you to half as usual (a quarter if you aren't Aquatic), and no bows/xbows/guns work for the rest of the game once you've gotten wet. 

Add deep water bottom terrain to suit your tastes.  If you want to add some water critters to a custom random monster chart have some shallow water extend to the neutral edges of the table (an underground river with a much deeper pool in it, no doubt).  Don't run it into the crew deployment zones, you don't want to make it easy to swim treasure off the board, that "Aquatic for a while" thing is supposed to complicate matters.   

Crews will be forced to decide how many troops they're going to use to as fishmen versus how many to keep on dry land to contend for the other loot, as well as having to juggle the limited water breathing time for figures who've gone in the drink.  If that isn't funky enough, maybe put the central objective atop a "shallow water" pillar in the center of the pool, so swimmers have to make more choices about diving for the other sunken loot or staying near the surface to reach the center fastest while risking getting shot from shore in that shallow water.

I'd mark swimmer "elevation" with d6's, and use lengths of string to determine actual distances covered as they move around on the diagonals.  If you want to splurge grabbing some cheap plastic glasses in different sizes for "swimming bases" can work, although they can be a bit wobbly with metal figs.       

Quote
Not sure how I feel about how most weapons would be ineffective due to the nature of water resistance.

I'd just handwave it and say any model with an inappropriate weapon (hammers, maces) has rearmed itself with something pointier for this battle.  If you want to be meaner about it, make everyone use daggers while fighting in the water.  Binge watching Sea Hunt episodes has reassured me that knives work just dandy underwater.
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on August 10, 2021, 11:41:55 PM
Wow! You really have a knack for this sort of thing Rich. That sounds devilishly clever!
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: Chief Lackey Rich on August 11, 2021, 11:42:46 AM
Wow! You really have a knack for this sort of thing Rich. That sounds devilishly clever!

Ideas are easy, it's just riffing on a solid rule system.  Putting in the work to throw together terrain and do proper playtesting and then produce a nice professional looking document - I'll leave that to McCullough.  Unless maybe he wants to pay for developer work.  :)
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: BZ on August 13, 2021, 05:49:31 AM
The author of Frostgrave, Joe McCullough wrote some "unofficial" rules for magical undewater combat in Ghost Archipelago:
http://therenaissancetroll.blogspot.com/2020/06/underwater-adventuring-rules.html?m=1
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on August 13, 2021, 09:02:20 AM
The author of Frostgrave, Joe McCullough wrote some "unofficial" rules for magical undewater combat in Ghost Archipelago:
http://therenaissancetroll.blogspot.com/2020/06/underwater-adventuring-rules.html?m=1

I did link that in my original post mate, it is what inspired the post, but thanks for the thought.
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: BZ on August 13, 2021, 01:40:51 PM
I did link that in my original post mate, it is what inspired the post, but thanks for the thought.
Sorry, it seems that I run trough Your post too fast.
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on August 13, 2021, 04:56:19 PM
No stress mate. My posts are often more easily managed by skimming. I know I am long winded.
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on September 18, 2021, 07:05:22 AM
Well we ended up adding the underwater expansion to our Bones V pledge through the Bones 5.5 extended pledge manager…. So underwater adventures are in our future.

I suppose I will need to stat up all those watery critters.
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: fastolfrus on September 25, 2021, 08:28:14 PM
Another option would be to just amend the basic campaign setting.

Frostrgrave is set in a frozen abandoned city.
But if you set it in an abandoned desert city, swallowed by dunes, you can use the rules (pretty much unaltered) as Sandgrave and go for Prince of Persia meets Ali-Babar/Aladdin/Sinbad.

I don't see it as completely ground-breaking to just set it in an underwater city, Atlantisgrave? and possibly stat your wizard & team as Atlantean exiles/fishmen/deep ones/mermen.
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: SotF on September 26, 2021, 01:04:45 AM
Another option would be to just amend the basic campaign setting.

Frostrgrave is set in a frozen abandoned city.
But if you set it in an abandoned desert city, swallowed by dunes, you can use the rules (pretty much unaltered) as Sandgrave and go for Prince of Persia meets Ali-Babar/Aladdin/Sinbad.

I don't see it as completely ground-breaking to just set it in an underwater city, Atlantisgrave? and possibly stat your wizard & team as Atlantean exiles/fishmen/deep ones/mermen.

With an Atlantisgrave scenario, it might work more to start from Ghost Archipelago rather than the basic frostgrave
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on September 26, 2021, 06:37:28 AM
Atlantisgrave is an interesting idea.
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: Chief Lackey Rich on September 26, 2021, 02:46:23 PM
With an Atlantisgrave scenario, it might work more to start from Ghost Archipelago rather than the basic frostgrave

GA scenarios are quite a bit less urban-focused, though.  I'd just lift the swimming/boating rules from it and run using Frostgrave wizard-led crews and campaign mechanics myself, and add more deep water to the default terrain mix rather than going completely submerged or mostly dry.  Maybe treat the city as about 50% submerged so you get a Venetian feel to the table.

It is an interesting idea for a variant, though.  No-longer-lost-legendary cities can crop up in all sorts of places, after all.
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: Bloggard on September 26, 2021, 03:02:51 PM
Atlantisgrave - really evocative idea.

Really the way GA should have gone instead of all that Tribal stuff.
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: Chief Lackey Rich on September 26, 2021, 04:41:12 PM
Atlantisgrave - really evocative idea.

Really the way GA should have gone instead of all that Tribal stuff.

I look at GA as being the country cousin of Frostgrave myself.  Most scenarios use few or no buildings and far more vegetation, which makes for a very different table than FG (or Atlantisgrave - boy, that's awkward - how about Watergrave?).  Also McCullough likes to focus on the storytelling aspects in his rules, and GA is clearly trying for the kind of pulp "lost land" adventure feel Burroughs and Howard were so good at, mashed up with a bit of a Spanish conquistador/European explorer flavor.  If he'd done another urban setting (even a largely sunken one) for his second rule set he'd likely have faced the same (largely undeserved, IMO) grousing Stargrave got about him just doing a minimal-effort re-skin of the rule set.
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on September 26, 2021, 06:09:52 PM
I am liking the ideas coming out of this.

Atlantis imagery ties in nicely with how I see Dricheans.
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: Chief Lackey Rich on September 26, 2021, 07:56:27 PM
Atlantis imagery ties in nicely with how I see Dricheans.

Considering they're pseudo-Greeks and it was a Greek who invented Atlantis in the first place, that seems a good fit.  They'd certainly make for a good pulp-style  "Atlantean remnant population" grown from a surviving colony or refugees that survived the Sinking.

Of course Plato's Atlantis bears little resemblance to later interpretations that turned it into a myth rather than an intellectual exercise.  You can blame most of that on Iggy Donnelly, who really kicked off the Victorian era obsession with the place, with a slew of cranks, kooks, and imitators following in his footsteps all the way to the modern day.  The things Hollywood has done to the place are bad enough, but the involvement of Blavatsky and her fellow theosophists, literal Nazis, Edgar Cayce and later con men would likely have had Plato asking Socrates if he could borrow some hemlock if he'd known what was coming.

One of the worst cases of parable taken as fact in all of history IMO.
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: Bloggard on September 27, 2021, 08:33:21 AM
given the, ahem, history-lite nature of romanticism that the more fantasy inclined denizens of this board tend towards, not sure this is the most receptive environment for such strictures Rich old chap  lol ;)  (don't doubt you're right tho' ... although you'll be saying they really did go to the moon next  ;) [oops, cross-board posting])

But there is something about the setting of (partially) submerged ruins and adventure etc. ... Kind of realise now it's being focussed on that it's the lodestone of my attraction to the genre/s, atmospherically speaking (even tho' I've actually had next to no gaming in the like!).
I guess the various 'Graves are kind of there if you take the bits you like, and season to flavour.

Do feel GA could have been more successfully pitched in that way - although saying that I didn't get the last expansion or two, so am not entirely clear where it's finished up.
Just seemed to be turning into a bit of an opportunistic tie-in with the likes of Darkest Africa etc, which wasn't what I hoped for it.

Anyhow, interested to see where GG takes the idea.
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on September 27, 2021, 11:06:34 AM
Whilst a ruined Venicegrave has its own appeal (Mrs. GG and I love the TT Combat Venice terrain) my thinking for this would be more underwater, with the board being the sea floor, so that the underwater denizens become the stars of the show rather than something to be avoided in isolated pockets of deep water.
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: Bloggard on September 27, 2021, 11:21:10 AM
that would be fantastic - just from an aesthetic point of view, difficult to simulate in an immersive (forgive pun) way?

but I have seen good boards in that vein (VSF in general) ... as I say, looking forward to seeing where you go with this.
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: Major_Gilbear on September 27, 2021, 11:34:51 AM
@ Bloggard:

Whilst I sympathise with your thoughts, I did actually find CLR's post good reading. One of the things I quite like about LAF in fact... :)

Back on topic, I have often thought about making/playing games set underwater myself. I think the main issues I found were:

1) Moving through water is generally slow for any creatures not adapted to it, whilst you can't jump like you do on dry land, potentially you can swim up/down over any obstacles given the time to do so. This feels like it would either limit or slow down the game more than anything, and I'm not sure the extra dimension of movement would really add enough to be worth the hassle of representing.

2) Assuming the game involves humans or other air-breathing creatures, this makes the environment essentially dangerous to them - they must have an air supply, and even minor damage to equipment or dispelling of a survival spell is likely to be much more deleterious to activity than a minor wound/graze suffered on land.

3) There are a whole slew of weapons that don't work or which would be utterly uncontrollable if used underwater. I can't think of much that would be the opposite though; i.e., weapons that work underwater but which wouldn't be very effective on land. That said, given #2 above, combat is also likely to be much riskier and more lethal.

If you ignore some/any of these issues, what makes the game feel like you're underwater? Many of these considerations also apply to other hostile environments like space too, and I have found it very tricky to get right.

That said, the X-Grave games are pretty permissive in terms of what the rules/setting can accommodate, and in the case of the two fantasy settings they both share the idea of a previously-inaccessible location suddenly become available again for an unknown period of time - exploring these areas to take their secrets/riches before they disappear again is what makes the setting for each. In this respect, the "Atlantis" that many think of (regardless of accuracy/anything else) fits the bill quite nicely.

What I have found more successful is having a setting that is not environmentally hostile, and instead using rules/restrictions that represent such environments for specific scenarios rather than applying them all the time. So in the case of an Atlantean setting, many of the scenarios would be set in areas where the tabletop would be considered "dry", but some could be set in submerged or partially submerged caverns/city sections. This way you still get to use the core rules and weapons as they are, but there is now also a reason for taking a wider variety of other crew/weapons/equipment, to ensure that you have enough suited to those underwater scenarios. I also quite like the idea of a scenario where the table area starts dry and then begins to fill up every turn after the first (or vice-versa), as I think this could provide some interesting (and perilous!) choices for the crews to make.

Anyway, just a few thoughts I had. :)
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: Bloggard on September 27, 2021, 12:24:16 PM
good stuff for GG to ponder there.

But - I enjoyed Rich's erudite comments too - I wasn't having a go, so apologies to him if that's how it came across.
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: Chief Lackey Rich on September 27, 2021, 12:51:42 PM
good stuff for GG to ponder there.

Indeed.  I'd still recommend looking at Deep Wars for some ideas on how to handle underwater movement and combat (particularly in three dimensions) even if you wind up going with different mechanics altogether.  The idea doing a scenario where the board gradually floods seems a good one, akin to some other ones where you're trying to stay ahead of flowing lava or collapsing floors/ceilings but with a vertical rather than horizontal impending threat.

Re: Underwater weapons on dry land, spearguns (at least the ones I've used) are nearly useless beyond a few yards when used above water, and even at that range they're wildly inaccurate.  They aren't much better underwater (at least range-wise) but their projectiles aren't stabilized to work well in air at all.  Really need a thicker medium for any kind of accuracy.  Light diffraction makes ranged combat underwater a limited-range affair anyway, even if you have really good light sources to work with.  Maybe restrict to LoS to 12" tops, going down from there in poor light and/or murky water.

Quote
But - I enjoyed Rich's erudite comments too - I wasn't having a go, so apologies to him if that's how it came across.

Honestly, I'm still not sure what you were trying to say.  If it was to caution me that some folks around here buy into the Atlantis myths that various con artists have come up with over the years, I can't say I much care about bursting their delusional balloons in that regard, nor do I care if they continue to invest time and money in that kind of thing.  Not my business - but I do think Plato (who was very big on Truth-with-a-capital-T) would have had something to say on the subject if he'd survived to see what other folks have done with the concept - particularly to the madmen who tried to tie it to Aryan race theory.

To be clear, I don't mind the (many) variations on Atlantis (and Mu, and Lemuria, etc, etc) that have cropped up over the years.  Many of them are downright entertaining, and pulp adventure as a genre would be much worse off without them.  But none of them are what Plato was talking about, and I appreciate them as works of fiction, nothing more.
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on September 27, 2021, 01:50:18 PM
The real world physics of underwater combat are rather stifling for our enjoyment so rather than leaning towards simulation for this I would be inclined to lean into the game side of things using some magical handwaving (unlike my usual preference towards simulation).

The gradual flooding idea is interesting. Anything that makes time and terrain dynamic in a game seems good to me.

Verticality in gameplay is a key point in this as well so maybe looking at Deep Wars mechanics will help.
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: Bloggard on September 27, 2021, 02:01:41 PM
@CLR - I'll PM you a reply about my comment; don't want to derail GG's thread. Will Copy GG in too, so he know's what's what.


Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on September 27, 2021, 02:24:26 PM
@CLR - I'll PM you a reply about my comment; don't want to derail GG's thread. Will Copy GG in too, so he know's what's what.

Cheers mate.
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: Chief Lackey Rich on September 27, 2021, 03:30:26 PM
Back on topic:

The gradual flooding idea is interesting. Anything that makes time and terrain dynamic in a game seems good to me.

You could make your terrain even more dynamic if some of it floats.  Wooden platforms (maybe a chunk of a ruin's floor) that could act as impromptu rafts, or a beached ship or submarine.  As the water rises they stay at the top, which is great for staying dry until they smash into the ceiling and squash anyone riding on them.  Or maybe they've got anchors or similar tethers that will let them rise partway but then get dragged under unless someone cuts them free?

Quote
Verticality in gameplay is a key point in this as well so maybe looking at Deep Wars mechanics will help.

If you want a simplified approach to depth/altitude rules, maybe an abstracted "flight band" system like GDW's Blue Max or Flagship's Starship! game used (or GW's Aeronautica Imperialis if that's more familiar)?  Have somewhere between 3-6 levels that figs can occupy above ground level, moving between one might take one or two actions depending on how fast you want vertical movement to be.  Makes it harder to block off enemy movement, which is probably the main reason you'd want to use 3D in teh game. 
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: Major_Gilbear on September 27, 2021, 04:03:22 PM
I enjoyed Rich's erudite comments too - I wasn't having a go, so apologies to him if that's how it came across.
Understood, and don't worry, I didn't see it as having a go - although I do understand a good discussion tangent has a habit of derailing a thread!  :)

[...] the (many) variations on Atlantis (and Mu, and Lemuria, etc, etc) that have cropped up over the years.  [...]  I appreciate them as works of fiction, nothing more.
Same for me - just fun works of fiction. :)

Anyway, back tot he topic at hand.

Re: Underwater weapons on dry land, spearguns (at least the ones I've used) are nearly useless beyond a few yards when used above water, and even at that range they're wildly inaccurate.  They aren't much better underwater (at least range-wise) but their projectiles aren't stabilized to work well in air at all.  Really need a thicker medium for any kind of accuracy.
Interesting, I didn't realise it was such a difference, although I suppose it makes sense - a bit like shooting an arrow from a bow underwater?

Notwithstanding, I was more leaning towards making (for example) spearguns short ranged, but unaffected by water; all other ranged weapons would be either severely penalised or not allowed to shoot underwater. I think we all agree that games need some abstraction, and something like this helps people playing the game think "Hey, this gun's not that great, but it still works well underwater. I should include a few for those scenarios where it comes up so I can still have some shooting".


Light diffraction makes ranged combat underwater a limited-range affair anyway, even if you have really good light sources to work with.  Maybe restrict to LoS to 12" tops, going down from there in poor light and/or murky water.
Yeah, I did think/consider this to be fair. I assumed that given the play area size and the presumed (relatively shallow) depths of the underwater areas this could be handwaved for LOS in general, and then tie smaller ranges to specific weapons.

Another consideration I briefly had was to have water depth/pressure factor into things, but with that sort of stuff the rules can easily get cumbersome quickly for little gameplay (i.e. fun) benefit.

Really, I think for something like this, any penalty needs to have a balancing benefit; otherwise such rules just build up and drag the game down without adding anything to the players' fun.

You could make your terrain even more dynamic if some of it floats.  Wooden platforms (maybe a chunk of a ruin's floor) that could act as impromptu rafts, or a beached ship or submarine.  As the water rises they stay at the top, which is great for staying dry until they smash into the ceiling and squash anyone riding on them.  Or maybe they've got anchors or similar tethers that will let them rise partway but then get dragged under unless someone cuts them free?
A great idea, as long as it's kept simple! Otherwise, it might lots of book keeping. I do like it though.  :)
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: Chief Lackey Rich on September 27, 2021, 05:09:39 PM
Anyway, back tot he topic at hand.
Interesting, I didn't realise it was such a difference, although I suppose it makes sense - a bit like shooting an arrow from a bow underwater?

Not quite as bad, I think.  Bows and water don't mix at all well without modern synthetic materials and even then getting them wet will change the way a (say) nylon bow string works, nor will wet fletchings help an arrow's flight any.  Historical archers weren't as bad off as early gunpowder weapon users were but a good heavy rain still left them very unhappy campers.  That said, bows work okay at short range across the air-water interface, hence bow-fishing being a thing.

IME spearguns fired in air don't perform anywhere near as well as the countless cheesy murder mystery shows where some poor sap gets skewered seem to indicate.  :)  You could certainly kill someone with one, but you need to be close.

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Notwithstanding, I was more leaning towards making (for example) spearguns short ranged, but unaffected by water; all other ranged weapons would be either severely penalised or not allowed to shoot underwater. I think we all agree that games need some abstraction, and something like this helps people playing the game think "Hey, this gun's not that great, but it still works well underwater. I should include a few for those scenarios where it comes up so I can still have some shooting".

I'd lean toward spearguns (or their fantasy equivalent - Crossbow of Poseidon or something?) having about a 12" range underwater and requiring a reload like a crossbow, perhaps with the same damage bonus (the projectile is pretty big even if it moves slower).  Maybe take a -2 to shoot above water with the same range?  Not great, but given how little shooting FG generally has it's better than nothing.  Might want to let them replace a bow or crossbow on a soldier, or maybe allow any soldier to carry one in their sole item slot?  Probably need to limit the number a single crew can take for the latter though, unless you want the game to feel more like Stargrave.
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: fastolfrus on September 28, 2021, 01:46:29 PM
Of course the other setting rather than a difficult to pronounce Atlantisgrave might be the harder to spell R'lyehgrave...
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: jon_1066 on September 29, 2021, 09:20:12 AM
An underwater setting has two main issues (whilst sounding amazingly cool)

1. Rules modifications to represent the underwater environment
2. Scenery and physical representation of the underwater environment

The two are obviously linked but the crux for me is in effect altitude.  If you imagine the underwater environment as being akin to a flight game then anything that can swim also has to have altitude otherwise what is the point of the 3D environment. 

If you use a flight stand of some description then you have two distinct sets of characters - those that can swim freely and those that plod on the bottom.

Ranged combat effectively disappears as no above air weapons will work underwater much beyond normal spear thrust range. 

How characters can "breath" underwater could be a fun factor in the games.  eg if it is a spell or mechanical.  If a spell it can be dispelled.  So ranged combat and fireballs are replaced by dispelling the opponents Magic Gills.  Obviously a character won't drown straight away so the other wizard has time to try and reapply the spell.

Armour on swimming characters will be non existent so combat will be more deadly if hit but many weapons won't work so you are down to daggers and spears/tridents.

So you will have armoured plodding characters tramping around the bottom, lightly armoured swimmers moving much faster and able to access all the different levels but once encumbered with gold they will struggle to swim freely.  Chuck in some denizens (sharks attracted by blood?) that will be both armoured and fast.  Can the wizards also get some friendly dolphins on side or summon a sea spirit?

Slower movement and limited ranged combat means you could play on a smaller board so can lavish more attention to your scenery. 

Good luck - sounds like it could be fun. Keep us posted.
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: Chief Lackey Rich on September 29, 2021, 01:53:47 PM
This is a little tangential, but I stumbled over this rather nifty idea for a small underwater setting on a roleplaying blog at thought it was worth sharing:

https://ancientvaults.wordpress.com/2021/09/28/new-encounter-bone-lake-trading-post/#comment-17268

If nothing else I like the concept as an explanation for how you're breathing underwater, since you're all skeletons for the duration of your swim and skellies don't need air, right?  Whether it'd be worth doing your whole warband over with skeleton heads and bony hands is a little debatable, though.  :)

Sure seems like the kind of weirdness Felstad is supposed to be full of, at least going by the little snippets of fluff McCullough's written.
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on September 30, 2021, 06:52:08 AM
Rich, that is a clever bit of lore… but yeah, doing skeleton versions of every character is a bit daunting.

As a bit of an aside, I just saw this thread over on the Dwarven Forge forums with a brilliant concept presentation for an underwater terrain set up.

http://forum.dwarvenforge.com/viewtopic.php?f=62&p=203123&sid=c158730738a5c00b5b51e16fd162c7da#p203123

Expensive but beautiful.
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: Major_Gilbear on September 30, 2021, 08:16:01 AM
@ GG:

Looks like a nice setup in that link! You could probably do a cheaper version yourself with some Hirst Arts moulds quite easily, and then just get some 3D printed corals and little details to dress it up. :)
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: Chief Lackey Rich on September 30, 2021, 11:56:50 AM
Rich, that is a clever bit of lore… but yeah, doing skeleton versions of every character is a bit daunting.

A bit, although I admit I've done crazier things.  Played in a Werewolf the Apocalypse game back when where I did minis for all five forms of my character (some pretty heavily converted) and got about 60% of the way along on doing the same for a couple of the other players (on commission) when the game up and folded on me due to GM burnout.

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As a bit of an aside, I just saw this thread over on the Dwarven Forge forums with a brilliant concept presentation for an underwater terrain set up.

http://forum.dwarvenforge.com/viewtopic.php?f=62&p=203123&sid=c158730738a5c00b5b51e16fd162c7da#p203123

Expensive but beautiful.

That's rather nice, but pricey as you said.  I lean toward aquarium dressing for underwater terrain, it's frequently on sale cheap and generally has a nice degree of verticality to it even if many pieces are a bit impractical for minis use and the scale is often bonkers.

There's also the Deep Wars scenery range, which is being made and sold by Dark Sword Miniatures for Antimatter Games these days.  Not cheap either, but some really nice stuff.  They've also been (ahem) dipping their toes in STL files for home printing, which might be helpful and more economical.

https://www.darkswordminiatures.com/product-category/miniature-lines/deepwars/

https://www.darkswordminiatures.com/product-category/stl-files-3d-printable/stl-scenery/underwater-scenery/
Title: Re: Toying with an idea, input wanted…. Underwater Frostgrave scenarios?
Post by: SotF on October 01, 2021, 02:13:50 AM
For underwater terrain, one relatively cheap option is to look for sea creature/sea animal playsets. They often have a LOT of very interesting bits and pieces that work really well for underwater terrain.

Also, if you look for the rougher lava rock, it works great as coral reef structures if you glue it together