Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Pikes, Muskets and Flouncy Shirts => Topic started by: Marshall on August 29, 2021, 10:26:18 PM
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Hello everyone
I've dusted off and added to my 28mm ECW range.
I was wondering what is the general preference for a rules set? I'm liking the look of pike and shot. I've also got a copy of WAB ECW again looks good.
I know there not really a unified single scene but is there any players in the North West?
Ta
Marshall
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We've been using Pike and Shotte but it is really designed for large games (multi-player, big table, lots of figure). For skirmishes and raids Pikeman's Lament is perfect but if I was going to go with a different set for battles it would be For King and Parliament, which is grid based. We have used Victory without Quarter (card driven activation) which s very straight forward I have 1644, WECW and Forlorn Hope but haven't played a game of any of them.
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We have really enjoyed For King and Parliament for ECW games
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I’ll second Pikemans Lament. Fun games and they are a good introduction :)
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Hi Marshall,
I can only echo the previous comments. Pike & Shotte is still my go to as it is very straightforward. especially if you’ve played Black Powder or Hail Caesar. Also very easy to teach newbies. Pikeman’s Lament is perhaps easier for skirmish types games. For King & Parliament is a great fast play game if you’re ok with grids etc.
There are a bewildering array of rules available (shameless plug for my list here https://theviaregia.blogspot.com/p/17th-century-wargames-rules.html) but I think that if you played Pike & Shotte or Pikeman’s Lament you’d find someone else to play with fairly easily.
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The Kingdom is Ours by Helion is a good introduction level.
Battle Rep and Game Run Though on Youtube here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3ttiX4D-ug (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3ttiX4D-ug)
Pike and Shotte, like it's forerunner Black Powder and Hail Caesar are really designed for large games with hundreds of miniatures on a very large table. No reason why you cannot start using them at a more manageable level from where I stand.
Warhammer ECW has probably seen it's day and it might be difficult to find players who would be happy using those rules nowadays.
Having written all this, I think the thing to do is to try a few sets out for yourself and see if you can find a set that you think has the right feel for the era of warfare.
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I like For King & Parliament: gives a good fun game with lots of flavour and plenty of figures on the table.
In fact, I liked it so much that I wrote a scenario booklet for it, which is also available to buy from the Big Red Bat shop, so no need to worry that you won't know what troops to put onto the table.
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I like For King & Parliament: gives a good fun game with lots of flavour and plenty of figures on the table.
Another one I should have mentioned!
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And I've just realised that I should have pointed you towards my blog, where there's loads of FK&P battle reports:
https://www.vislardica.com/vis-lucii-pike-shot (https://www.vislardica.com/vis-lucii-pike-shot)
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It puzzles me that people recommend Pikeman's Lament. I have played quite a few games of this rule set, and while they were fun games (mostly due to the company we kept), the rules bear ZERO relationship to the ECW, 30YW, etc.
Fun games are possible....but do not expect anything resembling the ECW.
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It puzzles me that people recommend Pikeman's Lament. I have played quite a few games of this rule set, and while they were fun games (mostly due to the company we kept), the rules bear ZERO relationship to the ECW, 30YW, etc.
Fun games are possible....but do not expect anything resembling the ECW.
They are a generalist set for certain and although not a perfect representation, work fine for large skirmishes (more than a handful of figures) of the era; and possibly most importantly, there is no competition for that scale of game.
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They are a generalist set for certain and although not a perfect representation, work fine for large skirmishes (more than a handful of figures) of the era; and possibly most importantly, there is no competition for that scale of game.
I would echo Codsticker, they are fine for large skirmishes and also agree to some extent with bulldogger2000 (in that they don't have the feel of a ECW battle) but they are a skirmish set which is what Dan and Michael's rules set out to be.
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I would agree wholeheartedly with bulldigger2000. Each to their own (and it would be boring if we were all the same) but when I tried Pikeman’s Lament I found them to be vanilla and completely lacking any feel for the ECW. I felt I could have been playing any period. That’s just my viewpoint, though, and there’s nothing to say I’m right!
If you want to try “large skirmish” there used to be a set called File Leader published by Caliver (and written by Pete Berry if I recall correctly). It may be worth given these a go if you can get hold of a copy?
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It puzzles me that people recommend Pikeman's Lament. I have played quite a few games of this rule set, and while they were fun games (mostly due to the company we kept), the rules bear ZERO relationship to the ECW, 30YW, etc.
Fun games are possible....but do not expect anything resembling the ECW.
I think you’re overstating it a bit :)
They certainly don’t offer a painstaking historical recreation of mid-C17th warfare in miniature, but they have plenty of period flavour through the troop types, scenarios, officer characteristics and so on. And as you say, they provide for fun games. As ever, it depends what you’re looking for - and not everyone is looking for the same thing.
If you want to refight all day massed battles of the period faithfully trying to represent drill manual tactics on the tabletop (as far as this is ever really possible) then TPL is certainly not what you’re looking for.
If, on the other hand, you’re looking for a straightforward set of rules with a good dose of period flavour, to provide a fast and enjoyable game that represents the sort of local skirmishes and small scale actions that happened all the time in the ECW and TYW aside from the major historical set piece battles, then TPL is a perfectly reasonable choice.
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Not sure if "File Leader" is still available. I can't see them for sale on the Caliver/Partizan Press website albeit there is reference to them. Might be worth dropping an e-mail to Caliver. I do have the original 1988 version. They are not 1-1 skirmish as each figures represents approx 10 men. I'm not sure you could fit modern 28mm figures on the movement tray they suggest! If you get no joy in locating them I could send you a scanned copy as they only run to c15 pages .
Regards
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At a skirmish level there’s Sharply Buffed, available from the Lardy Summer Special 2017 and keeping with a card-based rule set but on a larger level there’s Quindia Studios Victory Without Quarter, a useful description here:
https://declaresir.blogspot.com/2016/05/victory-without-quarter-rules-review.html
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I think you’re overstating it a bit :)
Sadly, from my point of view I really don’t think I am. I appreciate you are a fan, (and that in this particular Wargames forum they seem very popular) and if you like them then great, but I like my historical Wargames to have some history in them. My personal experience of these rules was that the history was sadly lacking. It was more Hollywood ECW than period flavour.
In the end it’s horses for courses. I know what I look for in a game and these rules certainly did not provide it. As I said, it’d be very dull if we were all the same?
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Sadly, from my point of view I really don’t think I am. I appreciate you are a fan, (and that in this particular Wargames forum they seem very popular) and if you like them then great, but I like my historical Wargames to have some history in them. My personal experience of these rules was that the history was sadly lacking. It was more Hollywood ECW than period flavour.
In the end it’s horses for courses. I know what I look for in a game and these rules certainly did not provide it. As I said, it’d be very dull if we were all the same?
Oh, I don’t think you’re wrong. They are decidedly more Hollywood than history, but I was replying to our previous correspondent’s comment that the rules have ‘ZERO’ to do with the ECW or TYW, which is plainly overstating the case. He / you may not like the way aspects of mid C17th warfare, troop types and so on are represented in the rules, but there’s definitely an attempt to represent them.
I wouldn’t say I’m a fan of TPL - I can see their limitations as well as the next man. But I do enjoy the games I play with them. Everyone recognises that the entire stable of Lion Rampant derivatives is basically one generic set that unashamedly puts a fun game with a sprinkle of period flavour ahead of any attempt at detailed historical simulation. The author makes no pretence otherwise.
My feeling is that wargamers sometimes over-rely on rules to provide the game. Rules are not the game. Rules are merely a framework to facilitate a game. Not an end in themselves, but a means to an end – a tool for playing an enjoyable wargame in a given setting. The choice of rules can reinforce that setting with more or less historical fidelity to things like organisation and tactics. But in a skirmish level game, does it really matter? Small groups of men trying to shoot or stab each other over hedgerows or in back gardens, are much the same throughout history. It’s not the same as trying to recreate Naseby with 10,000 figures. Horses for courses, as you say.
If I use ECW figures on terrain that looks plausibly like mid-C17th England, in a game featuring real or fictional ECW characters, with a scenario / narrative that’s all recognisably set in the ECW, then that’s an ECW game. It may not be your idea of an ECW game – and I love to see the big, historical ECW battles you and your friends have put on - but as you keep saying, it’s a good job we all like different things.
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Rules are not the game. Rules are merely a framework to facilitate a game. Not an end in themselves, but a means to an end – a tool for playing
Superbly said. :)
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Not sure if "File Leader" is still available. I can't see them for sale on the Caliver/Partizan Press website albeit there is reference to them. Might be worth dropping an e-mail to Caliver. I do have the original 1988 version. They are not 1-1 skirmish as each figures represents approx 10 men. I'm not sure you could fit modern 28mm figures on the movement tray they suggest! If you get no joy in locating them I could send you a scanned copy as they only run to c15 pages .
Regards
Superceded by Once Upon A Time In The West Country I believe. Which are still available. Very underated game.
Not quite sure that you should be offering to scan a ruleset - more than a bit naughty on the copyright front (even if your intentions are public spirited)
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Superceded by Once Upon A Time In The West Country I believe. Which are still available. Very underated game.
I forgot about them- very much "true" skirmish, with a half dozen figures per side.
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Not sure if you are after Skirmish or big battle rules and you’re getting suggestions for both.
My mates and I have just started playing ECW ‘big’ battles, we play tested three sets of rules; Pike & Shotte, Victory Without Quarter and Baroque.
Our criteria were we wanted not necessarily the best set of rules BUT the best set of rules that gave a game with period feel, were not overly complex, could easily accommodate multiple players per side and we could complete a game in an evening session (we meet Monday nights and don’t want to be playing til 1:00am Tuesday morning 😲).
They came in (in our opinions);
1. Baroque
2. Victory Without Quarter
3. Pike & Shotte
We played our first Monday Baroque ECW game just this week and even with a couple of newbies to the rules the game was exciting, felt right and we completed it with time for a debrief! So to reiterate Baroque are not the definitive ECW Rules but fit our criteria best so could be worth looking up some reviews of these titles (I actually thought Victory Without Quarter was very good, if it had been complete it would have been my choice but too many loose ends in its current state).
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My feeling is that wargamers sometimes over-rely on rules to provide the game. Rules are not the game. Rules are merely a framework to facilitate a game. Not an end in themselves, but a means to an end – a tool for playing an enjoyable wargame in a given setting.
You are right as usual, Sir Riccardo. I made some games with you old London boys. They were always fun and the rules never made the games. The players make the games and not the rules. Easy rules, a bunch of silly boys, a small glas of beer and a wonderful board with nice figures is a game, the rest is a wargames tournament.