Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Second World War => Topic started by: Gonzo100100 on September 07, 2021, 03:29:27 AM
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I am looking for some advice in regards to what sets to buy.
I am thinking that German Grenadiers and US Army will be most universal with most variety of units. As I am reading and watching more and more about the game it seems to me that buying based only on what I feel is going to be cool can be a mistake. The list below presents sets I am considering to buy but it appears to me that for example it may be much better to buy 5 various vehicles rather than 2 sets of 3 from Tank War starter set because the rules allow only to use 1 tank and 1 vehicle. I don’t know if the same is true about mechanized divisions like Armoured Fist or Late War Panzergrenadiers (30 plus 3 hanomags). Also, what teams should I get beyond of what I get from the starter sets?
I will appreciate if you could give me some advices about what sets to buy, my budget is around £600 for this.
German Grenadiers Starter Army
German Grenadiers Starter Army Expansion Set
Late War Panzergrenadiers (30 plus 3 hanomags)
King Tiger
German Heer MG42 MMG Team (1943-45)
Panzer III Zug
US Army starter army
Tank War: US starter set
US Armoured Fist
US Army support group
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Hi Gonzo,
Brilliant! What a nice predicament to be in. As far as I can see your budget should be fine (I admit I only play BA in 15mm but this just changes the cost/scale not what you need) and you’ve identified a sensible starting selection of forces. Someone will probably give you a better, thorough answer but I thought I’d add a few points:
# Start simply with 30 odd chaps in three sections (with appropriate squad support weapons) with a command squad as a platoon for both forces and then some supports like MGs, mortars and AT guns/artillery. Half tracks and transports are cool and fun to model (I tend to do trucks for most forces) but can be really hard to use well (although necessary in tank war and are already in your original shopping list). Pick them up in a set, paint them and just try not to cry when they get destroyed or fail to do a cinematic half track dash. Your choices in the original purchase list look like they should be perfect for making two balanced forces with one (or even two) platoons (with transport) and some appropriate level supports.
# Generally you won’t use lots of tanks, they’re nice to have and fun to paint but what you said about numbers/type is true. Don’t buy three Tiger IIs and wonder why they are hard to get onto a table. Three Panzer IVs would see a lot more use, although many great games of BA I’ve played only had one per side. You would be better off as you suggest, at least initially, having 5 different vehicles for each force (scout, armoured scout, light, medium and maybe heavy tank or more usefully tracked AA). A single platoon or zug for tank war of common, medium level tanks is a good option for the forces you’ve chosen: I’d go for stugs or pIVs and M4s of the correct type. Armoured scouts like M8’s,M20’s, the SDKfz 234/series are very useful and fit the game scale well.
Apologies that was such a wall of text (I actually edited it heavily). Basically I think you’re heading in the right direction for some fun games. Good luck I’m excited to see your progress.
BALM
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Having looked at the actual sets you’ve mentioned I have some opinions:
The sets with the platoon and transports are great but maybe to start you could just buy separate transports for the chaps in the army starters - it depends if you want to be able to field two platoons rather than one. I can’t see the US army box but presumably it’s got troops, tank, command and some supports. The expansions look sensible (if they are the M10 and M8 box) just remember you want a MG, Mortar and/or maybe an AT gun/artillery piece per platoon eventually. The Panzergrenadier starter looks perfect. The US Tank war set whilst cool is probably too many tanks I’d go for 3 Sherman’s and 3 stugs/pzIVs and work from there. The Tiger II is cool but a massive points sink and hard to justify on the table - maybe keep this model as a reward for when you’ve done the initial platoons/tanks/ vehicles.
All said you’re on the right track and you’re obviously aware of the common pitfalls. I tend to build standard platoons add supports then cycle through my vehicles allowing me to field all of my varied collection at some point (especially the piece meal late war kampfgruppes).
BALM
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Thirty figs max of infantry, plus a MMG and mortar and a spotter, forget the tiger and go for a stug IV, a artillery piece and some trucks or halftracks.
Yanks similar, but add a Sherman 105, AT gun + tow, artillery and spotter, Jeep’s or half tracks/trucks.
Cheers
Matt
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Thank you for your answers.
Based what I understand now is that if I get the Starter Army set + Starter Army Expansion set I will get everything I need per army.
German Grenadiers Starter Army:
Stug III Ausf G, Puma armoured car,75mm PaK 40 anti-tank gun, 81mm Mortar team, MG42 MMG team, 36 infantry.
German Grenadiers Starter Army Expansion Set:
Panzer IV Ausf. F1/G/H, Sd.Kfz 251/1 ausf D halftrack, German Army HQ (1943-45)
US Army starter army:
M4 Sherman, M3A1 half-track, 105mm artillery, MMG team, medium mortar team, 36 infantry.
US Starter Army Expansion Set:
US Army HQ, M10 Tank, M8/M20
Ok, that is all I need and for less than £300. Perhaps it’s for the best If I get that, the Rulebook and “Armies of…” books, read them, paint all I have and then buy more. However at least for entertainment purposes, how would you expand that for another £300? To avoid any confusion please start as I would already have the above 4 boxes.
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You could follow on by looking into different aspects of the same armies, so you could pick up some US airborne and falschrimjager or the campaign books are good for themed selectors, such as armoured infantry, anti tank platoons and so on.
This is not the way I work personally as I either get lots of random vehicles as I enjoy making the kits or start a new army for a completely different nationality. :D
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Based on the discussion so far, much of the advice I would have given has already been given. The only other thing I would add is to get a few more halftracks for the Americans (4 more) and Germans (3 more), so you could field a fully mounted German Panzergrenadier platoon or US armored infantry platoon. And/or get 4 German 3-ton trucks to mount the Panzergrenadiers as motorized, as there were more of them fighting the US than halftrack-mounted units.
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Gonzo I definitely agree with you that you’d get more enjoyment from spending the £300 on bits and bobs (technical term) to fill out your army rather than your original plan. If you want a next I’d aim for a platoon each of basic medium armour: M4s (2 more) and then PzIVs or stugs for the Germans . Then if you want to expand the forces later you can add any more mmgs, field guns, specific units, teams or another platoon of the same or supporting troops to each force - elite paratroopers, engineers or vehicles/equipment from specific units your interested in. The basic armies you have planned for half your budget will get you well on your way to enjoying the game and you can save the rest for when you know more about where you’d like to take your chaps. Also don’t forget terrain, it doesn’t have to be expensive - homemade is king but there are plenty of commercial efforts that are well worth the cost. A pretty looking table will be more immersive.
CapnJim and Voltan have both got good points, I may say half tracks are difficult to implement and fragile in game but I still have them for every force that can - doesn’t mean you have to use them but fun when you do. American armoured infantry are pretty unique and fun with a great range of kit too. I have trucks for nearly everyone.
The books are a good resource and will give you a good basic understanding of whatever period/offensive/theatre they cover and the rules needed to play them but aren’t always necessary - someone will have them if you need specific answers. It can be useful to have a specific force and time in mind but I like to try and make my chaps as variable and generic as possible and add thematic units/vehicles on top when needed.
BALM
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If you are going to paint both sides, why use 28mm? You could probably field the required forces for less than half your £300 budget in 15mm, or 20mm. In 15mm and 20mm you have everything you need (both figures and tanks) from the Plastic Soldier Company (PSC), plus in 15mm from Battlefront, the makers of Flames of War. In 20mm PSC also makes the vehicles and has infantry sets - plus you have the sublime figures from Anthony Barton that look like they have stepped from Stars & Stripes and Signal - plus lots of other makers.
The other thing nobody has mentioned so far is that you will need terrain for your troops to fight through, and again it's significantly cheaper to do in the smaller scales than in 28mm.
The smaller size figures will also fit your table better. So unless you have a significant commitment already to 28mm terrain I can't see any other reason (apart from opponents but if you like painting both sides for your use....).
Just because Warlord market the rules for use with their range of 28mm figures, doesn't men that you are obliged to play in 28mm - or indeed use Warlord figures if you do choose to go with 28mm. There are lots of other makers out there that produce as nice (probably nicer) figures in 28mm - Empress Miniatures, Offensive Miniatures and Eureka Miniatures for figures, Rubicon for vehicles etc - there are many, many others out there.
The only real advantage of Warlord is that it's a "one stop shop". The other thing I seem to recall from when I looked at their boxes of plastic figures was that, whichever box you chose, it was quite difficult to make a complete historical platoon from one box - there always seemed to be shortage of plain old riflemen arms in favour of SMGs and other cool stuff.
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If you are going to paint both sides, why use 28mm? You could probably field the required forces for less than half your £300 budget in 15mm, or 20mm. In 15mm and 20mm you have everything you need (both figures and tanks) from the Plastic Soldier Company (PSC),
This is a very good shout - I’ve not played much Bolt Action - but one of the main problems I had with it was the ground scale was so out of the figure scale things were just weird looking. You could end up with a squad deployed slightly dispersed and half of them would be out of range of the firer.
So going with smaller figures would really help the look of the game, as well as the cost.
Terrain is also a key thing to factor in. Terrain takes up way more space than troops - so being able to standardise on terrain can help a lot with storage and cost and time
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Thank you for all your answers,
I understand there is no way around it, in blind I can safely only buy the starter army sets + expansions + maybe some transports, then read the books and decide what way I want to expand, I’ll follow your advices. Many thanks.
However, I have a question about transports. Is there a reason why I should get lets say 3 of the same half-tracks or it will be totally OK to use a variety of them, for example for Germans: Kfz 69/70 Horch heavy field car, Sd.Kfz 250/1 Neu Halftrack, Schwimmwagen, and Opel Blitz/Maultier
Also, if only use half-tracks then is it ok to diversify and get one with 37mm Pak another 7.5cm Pakwagen and one plain?
@Littlearmies
There are few reasons I use 28mm but the most important – I don’t just paint to play games with them – I love painting minis, I strife to improve and get better at it. 28mm is a scale that I can work with. I am sure others are able to pull an amazing paintjob on smaller scales but to me smaller than 28mm is too small. So, if I didn’t enjoy painting little details on 28mm so much and wanted to skip forward to the actual game, I would consider smaller scales. In my case however, I have a lot of fun painting, and having a game with a friend is just a cherry on the cake. But again, if I didn’t enjoy gaming so much, I would perhaps focus on unique minis on 40mm+ scale. So, to summarize – 28mm is in my view the best balance between my artistic side and a gamer side.
Currently I also work on a very realistic terrain project, that will be great for 28mm (I made a lot of trees that are about 30cm high). So, doing terrain pieces is also something I enjoy a lot. I have to say though I have 0 ruins and 0 modern buildings and that is what is probably especially needed for Bolt Action but I am not worried, I’ll build some just in time.
Thank you for the online stores, I have added them to ‘my favourites’ (except for Rubicon, it was already there). I like Warlord mostly because as you said, it’s “one stop shop”. I generally buy my first boxes there and later I order from other companies to add variety. My first project (that I still expand) was Dark Ages, I bought most of the unique figures from Warlord and then moved to Footsore miniatures, Victrix, Gripping Beast, Fire Forge Games, V&V Miniatures – really amazing stuff there.
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I like 28mm for some things as well - but Anthony Barton's 20mm figures are so much better than the vast majority of 28mm figures it seemed absurd not to use them. Where are you located - I have several boxes of Warlord figures still largely on their sprues...
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However, I have a question about transports. Is there a reason why I should get lets say 3 of the same half-tracks or it will be totally OK to use a variety of them, for example for Germans: Kfz 69/70 Horch heavy field car, Sd.Kfz 250/1 Neu Halftrack, Schwimmwagen, and Opel Blitz/Maultier
Yes that's fine, you just buy a transport for each squad they don't have to be the same, the themed selectors limit what you can use as transports but don't worry about that yet as the generic selector lets you do what like, ish.
Also, if only use half-tracks then is it ok to diversify and get one with 37mm Pak another 7.5cm Pakwagen and one plain?
Yes within limits, for bolt action the 7.5cm counts as a self propelled gun for the selector but you can take a 37mm pak as a transport, it might be better to wait till you get the books before you go to mad shopping though. :)
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My first reply included a lengthy brick of text about choosing 15mm for many reasons and it even included an apology because it is a very standard reply to online questions and must be annoying to some. It is always meant as a helpful suggestion. But…… you wrote your original post and seemed quite set on 28mm and I later edited it all away. Play whatever makes you happy. 28mm has a real charm and there are some great sculpts. I also love the scenic side of gaming and probably have more terrain than miniatures in my to do list :) Either way good luck it’s a very fun game and you should get hours of enjoyment from it.
BALM
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For me personally, I base my units on historical TO&Es. US armored infantry platoons had 5 M3 or M3A1 halftracks. Likewise, German Panzergrenadier platoons had 4 251s Although in some cases, the platoon leader's track would be the 251 variant with the 3.7cm AT gun. For trucks, you could mix it up though for the Germans - 3-ton trucks and/or Krupp-Protzes would be the way to go with them...
That's the basis for my suggestion.
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For me personally, I base my units on historical TO&Es.
Yeah, but this is Bolt Action lol lol
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In my limited experience, many people seem to have strong feelings about certain rulesets. However, the nice thing about historical wargames in that (basing specifics aside!) you can generally use them with lots of different rulesets.
I would therefore *strongly* suggest getting something more modest as an initial starter force for each side, and try playing some games with them first.
To guide you, I would probably pick a period/theatre of the war that interests you, and begin with a smaller number of suitable models.
For example, let's say you were interested in the North Africa theatre, and wanted to field some German forces against the British. I would then start with a couple of boxes of plastic troops for each side, along with a couple of trucks, a couple of half tracks, and maybe a light tank each. There should be enough stuff in the infantry boxes to make some command models with, and also a selection of support weapons. The only thing I might add is a single weapons sprue (if you're buying direct from Warlord, or from ebay) to provide any small arms you may want but which aren't in the troops boxes.
If after a few games you find that Bolt Action isn't to your liking, or that a different force/theatre has taken your fancy, at least you're not so deep in that you feel you can't swap or give a different ruleset a go.
With BA specifically, it was always designed to be based on a game size of about one platoon plus some support elements. Obviously, bigger and smaller games are possible, and many supplements have been released since; but at it's heart, this is the size of game where the rules generally work best. And at this game size, whilst having some options to choose from in your forces is of course nice, you'll probably get more variety from the games if you change up the terrain setups and scenarios instead (and that potentially doesn't require more money/time/painting!).
Based on this comment:
As I am reading and watching more and more about the game [...]
It seems fairly probable that you have watched Tabletop CP on YouTube - as well as Bolt Action, the guys there also do Chain of Command (another WW2 platoon-level ruleset), and even back-to-back games with similar forces and terrain but using different rulesets to show how they can differ. I mostly mention them, as their forces are reasonably typical of what many players might field, and they do also use the same models across the various different games they play.
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I would suggest in starting, that WW2 wargaming tends to breakdown into 3 areas when looking at what how to game.
1/ Time period, Early war when the Axis did well, Blitzkrieg and Rommels war in the desert, invasion of Russia. Mid war, America enters the war in Africa/Italy and advance in Russia Stalls, and battles in the Pacific, then Late War, final actions in the pacific, D-Day, Operation market Garden, Fall of the Reich leading to Battle of Berlin.
2/ Once decided which period to start with, select which forces you want to game with, Germans if Europe are must buy, Japanese if Pacific. Could get almsot any of the allies forces as most fought in Europe and Pacific.
3/ Once decided when and where want to start gaming (you can always add other periods and battles later on), then look for the correspondening Caampaign book, BA has been going about 10 years and Warlords have a book to cover a period and theatre of war. Then look to see if there's a corresponding battle box, like the D-Day, Pegasus Bridge, or Fall of the Reich etc, there upto a few hundred so should be enough to get started and addon then as go along.
Happy gaming with whatever you decide, hope the above is helpful.
You don't have to spend your budget all in one go...
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I would advise against Bolt Action and 28mm in the long run. This is where I started too and it became obvious that 28mm is far out of scale for a 6x4 table and the Bolt Action rules did nothing to try and capture issues found in WWII combat. You will end up moving to smaller scales for WWII and different rules with time.