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Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: rampantlion on October 18, 2021, 06:27:56 PM

Title: Scottish Infantry at Lewes
Post by: rampantlion on October 18, 2021, 06:27:56 PM
There was supposedly a fairly large contingent of Scottish foot at the battle of Lewes in the king's army.  Does anyone know if they looked like the Scots from the wars of independence with long spears or would they have just looked like the English foot that they were with?  I assume that they would have had similar armor to their English infantry counterparts but not sure if the weapons were the same.

Thanks
Title: Re: Scottish Infantry at Lewes
Post by: frank xerox on October 18, 2021, 07:32:46 PM
Take this with a pinch of salt, but from memory accounts of the battle of Largs a year after Lewes don't mention schiltrons at all - axes and short spears are the things.
Title: Re: Scottish Infantry at Lewes
Post by: Atheling on October 18, 2021, 08:14:26 PM
I cannot speak specifially re: Battle of Lewes.

I can say that the idea of every Scottish soldier being armed with a long spear isn't too far fetched. But, only to the extent that their English counterparts would have been similarly armed.

Scottish men at arms of any rank were not the poor equivalents of the English.

This myth really need to be eradicated.
Title: Re: Scottish Infantry at Lewes
Post by: Iain R on October 19, 2021, 09:17:27 AM
Wot Atheling said.

The spear was the primary infantry arm of the day (length doesn't really come into it). There would have been no discernable difference in arms and accoutrements between a lowland Scots and English footsoldier (or Knight, as above) of the period. Even "Highlanders" would not have been terribly different, at least not to the extent that most people imagine.
Title: Re: Scottish Infantry at Lewes
Post by: Atheling on October 19, 2021, 09:47:58 AM
Wot Atheling said.

The spear was the primary infantry arm of the day (length doesn't really come into it). There would have been no discernable difference in arms and accoutrements between a lowland Scots and English footsoldier (or Knight, as above) of the period. Even "Highlanders" would not have been terribly different, at least not to the extent that most people imagine.

Iain is spot on.  8)

The idea that the average soldier of the Lowland and Highland Scots would have been poorer then their English counterparts is just ludicrous.

It is a myth that has permeated some Military History circles too which grinds my bones if I'm honest.
Title: Re: Scottish Infantry at Lewes
Post by: swiftnick on October 19, 2021, 10:21:43 AM
Agreed!
Title: Re: Scottish Infantry at Lewes
Post by: rampantlion on October 19, 2021, 06:16:08 PM
Maybe the continued talk of being poorly armed and dressed lends itself to the underdog or oppressed narrative that folks like to embrace.
Title: Re: Scottish Infantry at Lewes
Post by: Atheling on October 20, 2021, 09:37:58 AM
Maybe the continued talk of being poorly armed and dressed lends itself to the underdog or oppressed narrative that folks like to embrace.

From memory, it actually goes back to the historical literature (I cannot recall which documents off the top of my head but it definitely exists).

You're almost certainly correct. Medieval "historians" were pretty fast and loose on their facts.
Title: Re: Scottish Infantry at Lewes
Post by: Ragsta on October 20, 2021, 12:05:52 PM

Consider me reeducated- this is interesting stuff. I’m now worried that I may have been subconsciously conditioned by watching Braveheart as a kid…
Title: Re: Scottish Infantry at Lewes
Post by: frank xerox on October 20, 2021, 12:26:36 PM
Yup, Scottish knights being under armoured and badly mounted seems to be another one that’s taken root in wargaming that and schiltrons can’t move.
Title: Re: Scottish Infantry at Lewes
Post by: swiftnick on October 21, 2021, 08:20:57 AM
Yes add to that archers from the Ettrick forest. Only light cavalry as no access to big horses and other silliness.
Title: Re: Scottish Infantry at Lewes
Post by: Iain R on October 21, 2021, 08:58:47 PM
There is more sense being talked in this thread than in most books...
Title: Re: Scottish Infantry at Lewes
Post by: frank xerox on October 21, 2021, 10:09:00 PM
Lets not forget "Pikes, Inferior"
Title: Re: Scottish Infantry at Lewes
Post by: Blackwolf on October 21, 2021, 10:37:02 PM
And remember,if there were Scots there I dare say a few of them were Islemen,who were by their very nature professionals and well equipped.
Title: Re: Scottish Infantry at Lewes
Post by: Atheling on October 22, 2021, 07:52:46 AM
There is more sense being talked in this thread than in most books...

 lol That, sadly, is true.
Title: Re: Scottish Infantry at Lewes
Post by: Unlucky General on October 22, 2021, 07:53:46 PM
I suspect one of your issues will be how you make your Scottish 'spear' different from the rest of the royal army?

I'd suggest no or next to no kettle helmets and a good sprinkling of plaid but other than that, everything said so far is pretty much spot on. This discussion has shamed me ... I should get back to my own Lewes project.

Please let us know how you get on.
Title: Re: Scottish Infantry at Lewes
Post by: Iain R on October 23, 2021, 12:08:58 AM
Or rather not. That's been the whole point of this discussion, there would have been little to no visible difference between tge troop types.
Title: Re: Scottish Infantry at Lewes
Post by: Atheling on October 23, 2021, 07:14:29 AM
Or rather not. That's been the whole point of this discussion, there would have been little to no visible difference between the troop types.

100%. That's what both Iain and I (and the others ) have been trying to say. There would be no discernible difference. No plaids in any obvious numbers and certainly nothing resembling the Plaid of such awful movies. They were to come much later. Centuries later in fact.

The only difference would have been in the colour of cloth given out for liveries; knightly heraldry. Early on such liveries would be handed out to some of the housholdthe soldiery on both sides out but later coats might be given already stitched together.

For example, Edward of Woodstock (later known as The Black Prince) famously gave out yards of green and white cloth to his Welsh retainers for the Crecy Campaign.
Title: Re: Scottish Infantry at Lewes
Post by: bluewillow on October 23, 2021, 05:48:19 PM
I will need to check my notes but some Scottish families did hand out cloth for retainers. As for weapons spears, axe, a few bows and leaders with good swords , I primarily mostly portrayed them in gambersons, with a few leaders in mail.


 I painted a few units for my Lewes Project, but alas it has stalled also when I moved to France, although I have around 20 bases complete, I still need to paint 20 odd bases of cavalry (120 cav). I think I will add them to the completion list for next year as I have completed the heraldry document now.

cheers
Matt
Title: Re: Scottish Infantry at Lewes
Post by: Atheling on October 23, 2021, 06:11:49 PM
heraldry document now.

Do tell old bean. In fact please spill the beans!  ??? :D
Title: Re: Scottish Infantry at Lewes
Post by: bluewillow on October 23, 2021, 07:56:32 PM
I will publish on our website as a PDF for sale in November when I also launch the webshop.

cheers
Matt
Title: Re: Scottish Infantry at Lewes
Post by: Unlucky General on October 23, 2021, 08:51:07 PM
I'm afraid I'm going to have to differ from some of the certainty expressed on this thread.

Plaid fabrics in the Celtic cultures throughout the British isles is as old as recorded history. Please note I'm not referring to the more modern 'tartan' classifications. It's just how people wove. If you wish to ignore that in how you want to depict your models and armies, then that's your prerogative.

'Scotish' armies were levied differently in this period and a lot of military organisation is dependent upon socio-economic and political factors. The Scots were different from the English - distinct even.

I'm not disputing similarities in basic functions between groups of common infantry but I suspect that the aforementioned implication or insistence that Scots and English soldiery was indistinguishable is an opinion and one that, whilst clearly shared, is not evidence based.

I understand that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence but I've never seen depicted Scots soldiers of that time (1260s) wearing kettle helms for example. Nor is it referred to in written sources - to my knowledge. I'm always ready to accept correction.

Positions taken on this subject on this thread feel to me like some people are trying to over-compensate in a reactionary response to pop-culture. I think it's swinging the position too far the other way.

I 'think' and suggest the distinction would have been apparent between Scots and English foot: subtle but nevertheless apparent. In an attempt to assist the original enquiry, I'll stand by my original suggestions if you are looking for ways of depicting those differences in your Lewes army for the Scots. I know my time machine is broken at the moment and I'm guessing everyone else's is also. If you did chose to go down a similar path, I'm yet to be convinced you would inaccurate or wrong.

Good luck with it, whatever you decide.

Title: Re: Scottish Infantry at Lewes
Post by: Atheling on October 24, 2021, 07:08:38 AM
I'm afraid I'm going to have to differ from some of the certainty expressed on this thread.

Plaid fabrics in the Celtic cultures throughout the British isles is as old as recorded history. Please note I'm not referring to the more modern 'tartan' classifications. It's just how people wove. If you wish to ignore that in how you want to depict your models and armies, then that's your prerogative.

First of all, to what geographical area do you assign the wearing of plaid? I think most of us know you are not referring to Tartan, pretty much a Victorian invention.

Assuming plaid was as ubiquitous as you suggest, what would be the difference between a soldier from Northumbria and one from the Lowlands Scotland? Would the wearing of plaid suddenly end at the border, which was very much in flux for most of the history? Surely not.

'Scotish' armies were levied differently in this period and a lot of military organisation is dependent upon socio-economic and political factors. The Scots were different from the English - distinct even.

How so? In what way were they levied differently? What made them so distinct from one another?

I'm not disputing similarities in basic functions between groups of common infantry but I suspect that the aforementioned implication or insistence that Scots and English soldiery was indistinguishable is an opinion and one that, whilst clearly shared, is not evidence based.

Going back to a Slingshot many years ago, Dr Chris Brown discussed this at length and comes to a very different conclusion. Do you mind if I ask you what sources you are referring to please?

Positions taken on this subject on this thread feel to me like some people are trying to over-compensate in a reactionary response to pop-culture. I think it's swinging the position too far the other way.

Sorry, but to suggest that those of us who are arguing that there was little difference equipment wise between the Scots and English at the time are not posturing some kind of pop culture (I think you might have been insinuating PC culture?)
Title: Re: Scottish Infantry at Lewes
Post by: Iain R on October 24, 2021, 01:00:05 PM
Atheling has largely summed up everything I would reply with, more eloquently than I probably could...  lol

I don't dispute there would be some difference, but I would argue that these would largely be far too subtle to distinguish at the scale of a 28mm wargame. Particularly if we're considering a common-or-garden lowland infantryman from what we now consider the central belt, vs. his English counterpart. Although I would be interested to know your reasoning on the kettle hat point in particular...

I think an interesting modern analogy (which will probably be readily viewable on TV over the next couple of weeks) would be to consider large groups of Scottish and English police officers next to each other; from a distance they look pretty much the same, because they are all equipped to do the same job, albeit from different sources- it's only once you look really closely you notice slight differences in the designs of hi-viz jacket, a couple of different types of belt kit, or ways the same stuff is carried, slightly different cap styles, etc, but outwardly all equipped the same, and indistinguishable from a distance. There will be outliers, the odd cop might be clinging to an old long yellow coat, or someone wearing a sleeveless yellow vest over a black jacket- these are your guys in the mediaeval host who have a plaid cloak over their shoulders, or a notably different (either older or really modern and fancy) helmet, or similar.

Otherwise, I think I'll just have to respectfully agree to disagree with The Unlucky General, here. Particularly the inference that I'm just making stuff up as a reaction to that film. Let's not pick that fight.

All the best.
Title: Re: Scottish Infantry at Lewes
Post by: rampantlion on October 25, 2021, 01:39:02 PM
Thanks everyone for the great conversation.  I, as a wargamer, want my Scots to stand out from my English.  I am thinking that the only way to do it is with some banners representing their Scottish lords that brought them to the field.  Just for fun I might still mix in the odd spearman with some plaid cloak or something of the sort. 

Allen
Title: Re: Scottish Infantry at Lewes
Post by: Atheling on October 25, 2021, 02:58:33 PM
Thanks everyone for the great conversation.  I, as a wargamer, want my Scots to stand out from my English.  I am thinking that the only way to do it is with some banners representing their Scottish lords that brought them to the field.  Just for fun I might still mix in the odd spearman with some plaid cloak or something of the sort. 

Allen

After much discussion and at the end of the day, they are your miniatures and you can do as  you please with them. Heraldic Banners are a great idea and will, to a certain educated eye, make them stand out as Scots.
Title: Re: Scottish Infantry at Lewes
Post by: Phillius on October 27, 2021, 12:03:38 AM
Interesting discussion indeed. I have just taken delivery of the master molds for our first Scots of this period (Triguard Miniatures) and these are based upon primarily re-enactor resources. From what I have seen, and I am no expert, there was similarity between the Scots and the English, any border is artificial after all.
We will be producing reasonably well equipped front rankers, primarily in padded gambeson and mail, supported by foot knights. For those less well equipped we will be recommending some of our Welsh figures, who look a lot like some of the less well equipped I have seen in re-enactor pictures.
Title: Re: Scottish Infantry at Lewes
Post by: Atheling on October 27, 2021, 06:32:36 AM
Interesting discussion indeed. I have just taken delivery of the master molds for our first Scots of this period (Triguard Miniatures) and these are based upon primarily re-enactor resources. From what I have seen, and I am no expert, there was similarity between the Scots and the English, any border is artificial after all.
We will be producing reasonably well equipped front rankers, primarily in padded gambeson and mail, supported by foot knights. For those less well equipped we will be recommending some of our Welsh figures, who look a lot like some of the less well equipped I have seen in re-enactor pictures.

I'm pleased that you have enjoyed the discussion so far. You are spot on about the borders being artificial which has been the crux of my "argument" all along.

It's is excellent to hear a new company is on the scene. The more the merrier!

What scale are you mini's? Do you have am link to a website/Facebook gage as of yet please?

Are the Welsh available now?
Title: Re: Scottish Infantry at Lewes
Post by: Blackwolf on October 27, 2021, 06:51:53 AM
 :) Just Google Triguard Miniatures,that’s what I did :)
Very nice they are too!
Title: Re: Scottish Infantry at Lewes
Post by: Phillius on October 27, 2021, 07:16:49 AM
I suppose I should have mentioned that shouldn't I!

40mm and www.triguardminiatures.com

Used to be Vanguard Men-at-arms sold by the Miniature Service Centre.

Initial pictures of the new Scots will be up soon.
Title: Re: Scottish Infantry at Lewes
Post by: Atheling on October 27, 2021, 07:47:25 AM
:) Just Google Triguard Miniatures,that’s what I did :)
Very nice they are too!

Tried a cut and paste and got nothing except for Tiger miniatures  :)

So, my google Foo is up to it's usual tricks  lol

I suppose I should have mentioned that shouldn't I!

40mm and www.triguardminiatures.com

Used to be Vanguard Men-at-arms sold by the Miniature Service Centre.

Initial pictures of the new Scots will be up soon.

Thanks Phillius, much appreciated  8)

Now that i've seen the miniatures I remember them from a few years ago.

Please feel free to post up pics of the miniatures as they are released. I believe the Commercial sub fora of the Bazaar is the usual place to post up commercial stuff.

Very much looking forward to seeing the Scots!  8)

Title: Re: Scottish Infantry at Lewes
Post by: uglyfatbloke on October 30, 2021, 06:58:26 PM
Take this with a pinch of salt, but from memory accounts of the battle of Largs a year after Lewes don't mention schiltrons at all - axes and short spears are the things.
[/quote
IIRC the Norwegian material is largely focused on the Scottish MAA on their 'Spanish' horses.
]
Title: Re: Scottish Infantry at Lewes
Post by: uglyfatbloke on October 30, 2021, 07:00:57 PM
From memory, it actually goes back to the historical literature (I cannot recall which documents off the top of my head but it definitely exists).

You're almost certainly correct. Medieval "historians" were pretty fast and loose on their facts.
It's pretty much rooted in a mixture of Scottish romance and Englich nationalism - so often it's the other way around.
Title: Re: Scottish Infantry at Lewes
Post by: uglyfatbloke on October 30, 2021, 07:03:20 PM
There is more sense being talked in this thread than in most books...
Sadly that is all too true. If you want a good laugh you could check out Nusbacher's 'Banockburn' which may well be the very worst history book I've ever encountered.....and I've read Thomas Costain's 'Three Edwards'.
Title: Re: Scottish Infantry at Lewes
Post by: Iain R on October 31, 2021, 12:56:35 PM

IIRC the Norwegian material is largely focused on the Scottish MAA on their 'Spanish' horses.


Horses in sombreros are on my to do list for Largs...
Title: Re: Scottish Infantry at Lewes
Post by: Atheling on October 31, 2021, 02:08:46 PM
It's pretty much rooted in a mixture of Scottish romance and Englich nationalism - so often it's the other way around.

That was kind of my point though I would have said modern Scottish and English nationalism. That is to say Victorian Romanticism.