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Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: Atheling on October 20, 2021, 12:33:54 PM

Title: Julian's Persian expedition; Which Legions and Cohorts Involved?
Post by: Atheling on October 20, 2021, 12:33:54 PM
Hi,

I'm fairly (re: very) new to Julian's Persian expedition and wanted to po a question if I may?

Do we know which Legions were involved in the expedition?

Same for the Cavalry units?

Is there a reference in any on the literature or online that is fairly accessible?

I'm trying to match up the Legions involved with the correct LBMS Transfers for the Middle Imperial Roman A&A Miniatures range

Any help in this matter be very much appreciated  :)

LBMS A&A Miniatures for their Middle Imperial Roman range: Can any of the following be matched to any of the Legions in the campaign?
(https://www.littlebigmenstudios.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/MIRAA21.jpg)

(https://www.littlebigmenstudios.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/MIRAA20.jpg)

(https://www.littlebigmenstudios.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/MIRAA19.jpg)

(https://www.littlebigmenstudios.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/MIRAA18.jpg)

(https://www.littlebigmenstudios.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/MIRAA17.jpg)

(https://www.littlebigmenstudios.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/MIRAA16.jpg)

(https://www.littlebigmenstudios.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/MIRAA15.jpg)

(https://www.littlebigmenstudios.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/MIRAA14.jpg)

(https://www.littlebigmenstudios.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/MIRAA13.jpg)

(https://www.littlebigmenstudios.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/MIRAA12.jpg)

(https://www.littlebigmenstudios.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/MIRAA11.jpg)

(https://www.littlebigmenstudios.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/MIRAA10.jpg)

(https://www.littlebigmenstudios.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/MIRAA9.jpg)

(https://www.littlebigmenstudios.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/MIRAA8.jpg)

(https://www.littlebigmenstudios.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/MIRAA7.jpg)

(https://www.littlebigmenstudios.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/MIRAA6.jpg)

(https://www.littlebigmenstudios.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/MIRAA5.jpg)

(https://www.littlebigmenstudios.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/MIRAA4.jpg)

(https://www.littlebigmenstudios.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/MIRAA3.jpg)

(https://www.littlebigmenstudios.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/MIRAA3.jpg)

(https://www.littlebigmenstudios.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/MIRAA2.jpg)

(https://www.littlebigmenstudios.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/MIRAA1.jpg)
Title: Re: Julian's Persian expedition; Which Legions and Cohorts Involved?
Post by: Mad Gadgeteer on October 20, 2021, 01:58:43 PM
I'm not sure if they were consider 'Legions' at that point - they were broken up into smaller units.  The 4th century AD saw the biggest changes I think.  I coukd very well be wrong though, I'm an Early Imperial Rome guy.

Have you looked at the following?  It's very basic.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Roman_army

The following book appears to be one of the best sources.  You can buy it as a physical book or through Amazon as a Kindle book.

'The Nisibis War 337 - 363: The Defence of the Roman East AD 337-363' by John S. Harrel.

BTW - the shield patterns you are showing are for the 3rd Century AD, Julian's Persian expedition took place in the mid/late 4th Century.  Not sure if the design and type would be the same or not.
Title: Re: Julian's Persian expedition; Which Legions and Cohorts Involved?
Post by: OB on October 20, 2021, 04:00:01 PM
He took the Gallic Legions with him.  They were his power base so that is a starting point.
Title: Re: Julian's Persian expedition; Which Legions and Cohorts Involved?
Post by: Atheling on October 20, 2021, 04:15:46 PM
I'm not sure if they were consider 'Legions' at that point - they were broken up into smaller units.  The 4th century AD saw the biggest changes I think.  I coukd very well be wrong though, I'm an Early Imperial Rome guy.

Have you looked at the following?  It's very basic.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Roman_army

The following book appears to be one of the best sources.  You can buy it as a physical book or through Amazon as a Kindle book.

'The Nisibis War 337 - 363: The Defence of the Roman East AD 337-363' by John S. Harrel.

Thanks, rather embarrassingly I seem to have got my Centuries mixed up!  o_o o_o o_o

BTW - the shield patterns you are showing are for the 3rd Century AD, Julian's Persian expedition took place in the mid/late 4th Century.  Not sure if the design and type would be the same or not.

I've just located a copy of The Nisibis War 337 - 363 and put in an order.

Thanks again and yeah, what a faux pas on my part  lol
Title: Re: Julian's Persian expedition; Which Legions and Cohorts Involved?
Post by: Mad Gadgeteer on October 20, 2021, 10:19:18 PM
Thanks, rather embarrassingly I seem to have got my Centuries mixed up!  o_o o_o o_o

I've just located a copy of The Nisibis War 337 - 363 and put in an order.

Thanks again and yeah, what a faux pas on my part  lol

Don't sweat the faux pas - happens to everyone, especially when delving into new areas.  Glad to be of help.
Title: Re: Julian's Persian expedition; Which Legions and Cohorts Involved?
Post by: Atheling on October 21, 2021, 07:14:18 AM
Don't sweat the faux pas - happens to everyone, especially when delving into new areas.  Glad to be of help.

But that's just it, 4th CE Rome isn't a new area, Third CE is  lol

I'm over it now, but yesterday I really was a burry your head in the sand moment  o_o
Title: Re: Julian's Persian expedition; Which Legions and Cohorts Involved?
Post by: swiftnick on October 21, 2021, 08:03:29 AM
You are probably aware of them but if not. The Ballista novels by Harry Sidebottom are set in this era. Plenty of scenario fodder and a rollicking good read.
Title: Re: Julian's Persian expedition; Which Legions and Cohorts Involved?
Post by: Atheling on October 21, 2021, 08:07:56 AM
You are probably aware of them but if not. The Ballista novels by Harry Sidebottom are set in this era. Plenty of scenario fodder and a rollicking good read.

Thanks for the suggestion  8)

Apart from my recent purchase of The Nisibis War: The Defence of the Roman East, AD 337-363, John S Harrel  I have stopped buying books as I literally have a mountain of military history and novels to climb.
Title: Re: Julian's Persian expedition; Which Legions and Cohorts Involved?
Post by: OB on October 21, 2021, 08:44:21 AM
You could listen while you paint.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A10XWtF0a60
Title: Re: Julian's Persian expedition; Which Legions and Cohorts Involved?
Post by: Atheling on October 21, 2021, 09:20:15 AM
You could listen while you paint.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A10XWtF0a60

Excellent OB! Thanks  8)
Title: Re: Julian's Persian expedition; Which Legions and Cohorts Involved?
Post by: Wellington on October 21, 2021, 09:51:18 AM
The following book appears to be one of the best sources.  You can buy it as a physical book or through Amazon as a Kindle book.

'The Nisibis War 337 - 363: The Defence of the Roman East AD 337-363' by John S. Harrel.

Nothing about Shields, but this book is very good indeed.
Title: Re: Julian's Persian expedition; Which Legions and Cohorts Involved?
Post by: Johnp4000 on October 21, 2021, 10:06:43 AM
Atheling, there were plenty of clashes between the Middle Romans and the Sassanid Persia, also the bonus of the Palmyran revolt, so it is easy to get confused with the later Julian campaign! I wouldn't worry too much about shield designs I don't think there is any real certainty has to wherever cohorts or Legions had unique designs similar to the epic debate of what colours were used for Military clothing! However with those LBMS shields I keep thinking design 1 is based on a shield that was found in the area.(Duro-Europas)
I would also recommend those Harry Sidebottom books, lots of ideas for scenario's!
Title: Re: Julian's Persian expedition; Which Legions and Cohorts Involved?
Post by: Atheling on October 21, 2021, 11:49:27 AM
Atheling, there were plenty of clashes between the Middle Romans and the Sassanid Persia, also the bonus of the Palmyran revolt, so it is easy to get confused with the later Julian campaign! I wouldn't worry too much about shield designs I don't think there is any real certainty has to wherever cohorts or Legions had unique designs similar to the epic debate of what colours were used for Military clothing! However with those LBMS shields I keep thinking design 1 is based on a shield that was found in the area.(Duro-Europas)
I would also recommend those Harry Sidebottom books, lots of ideas for scenario's!

Thanks mate. I'll have a look at Harry Sidebottom books when I've got the research right- or as right as it is possible for me to get it!

I remember a Goldsworthy lecture where he just came out and said it, "we probably only know 10-20% of what the Roman Army actually looked like"!
Title: Re: Julian's Persian expedition; Which Legions and Cohorts Involved?
Post by: Ten Fingered Jack on October 21, 2021, 07:48:03 PM
You are probably aware of them but if not. The Ballista novels by Harry Sidebottom are set in this era. Plenty of scenario fodder and a rollicking good read.

The Ballista novels are set in the reign of Gallienus, about a century before Julian's Persian campaign.
Title: Re: Julian's Persian expedition; Which Legions and Cohorts Involved?
Post by: Atheling on October 21, 2021, 08:26:00 PM
The Ballista novels are set in the reign of Gallienus, about a century before Julian's Persian campaign.

So, based around the Battle of Edessa time period?
Title: Re: Julian's Persian expedition; Which Legions and Cohorts Involved?
Post by: AdamPHayes on October 21, 2021, 09:00:56 PM
I think the shield with the scorpions on is a Praetorian cavalry design. The 4th and last shields are definitely from Dura. The Arms and Armour report on the Excavation at Dura-Europus by Simon James is a good compilation of the military finds. Published by Oxbow Books. It has some colour plates and reconstructions of the shields found there but also discusses other evidence found elsewhere.
Title: Re: Julian's Persian expedition; Which Legions and Cohorts Involved?
Post by: Atheling on October 22, 2021, 08:03:31 AM
I think the shield with the scorpions on is a Praetorian cavalry design. The 4th and last shields are definitely from Dura. The Arms and Armour report on the Excavation at Dura-Europus by Simon James is a good compilation of the military finds. Published by Oxbow Books. It has some colour plates and reconstructions of the shields found there but also discusses other evidence found elsewhere.

Thanks you Adam. That sounds like just the ticket!  8)
Title: Re: Julian's Persian expedition; Which Legions and Cohorts Involved?
Post by: Emperorbaz on October 22, 2021, 08:53:07 AM
I still highly rate the Fall of the West  WAB supplement for the Late Roman Army. If (as suggested earlier) the Gallic army formed the backbone of Julians Persian invasion then FOTW sets our the units in the Gallic force and has some shield designs in the illustrations. But for deeper research I would take the unit names and look further on Luke Ueda-Sarson's notitia dignitatum web pages.
Title: Re: Julian's Persian expedition; Which Legions and Cohorts Involved?
Post by: Atheling on October 22, 2021, 09:33:41 AM
I still highly rate the Fall of the West  WAB supplement for the Late Roman Army. If (as suggested earlier) the Gallic army formed the backbone of Julians Persian invasion then FOTW sets our the units in the Gallic force and has some shield designs in the illustrations.

I've got Fall of the West. I kept all my WAB Supplements.

But for deeper research I would take the unit names and look further on Luke Ueda-Sarson's notitia dignitatum web pages.

I've got pretty much all the Notitia Dignitatum shileds in colour in Armies of the Late Roman Empire AD 284 to 476: History, Organization and Uniforms, Gabriele Esposito, though there's certainly no harm in double checking with the Luke Ueda-Sarson's notitia dignitatum web pages.

Thanks :)

Title: Re: Julian's Persian expedition; Which Legions and Cohorts Involved?
Post by: Emperorbaz on October 22, 2021, 10:08:09 AM
If the book you refer to has all the shield designs in colour then it’s a must add to my library! Thanks
Title: Re: Julian's Persian expedition; Which Legions and Cohorts Involved?
Post by: Atheling on October 22, 2021, 11:55:54 AM
If the book you refer to has all the shield designs in colour then it’s a must add to my library! Thanks

It does. I cannot vouch for the accuracy though. That's why I wanted to double check them against Luke Ueda-Sarson's notitia dignitatum. If they're both a good fit then that would be good enough for me.
Title: Re: Julian's Persian expedition; Which Legions and Cohorts Involved?
Post by: Emperorbaz on October 22, 2021, 02:21:36 PM
I agree. Since there are several copies of the notitia with different colour schemes, you have to draw the line somewhere and say that’s good enough. If you are hand painting the shields, or in my case creating transfers, I think a good dash of artistic reinterpretation of the motifs and colours used can bring out some great results.
Title: Re: Julian's Persian expedition; Which Legions and Cohorts Involved?
Post by: Atheling on October 22, 2021, 04:55:55 PM
I agree. Since there are several copies of the notitia with different colour schemes, you have to draw the line somewhere and say that’s good enough. If you are hand painting the shields, or in my case creating transfers, I think a good dash of artistic reinterpretation of the motifs and colours used can bring out some great results.

I'm going to have to go with transfers. I've got so many projects on the go (which is actually unusual for me over the last few years). Hope I'm not diving back into old habits!  :o
Title: Re: Julian's Persian expedition; Which Legions and Cohorts Involved?
Post by: bluewillow on October 23, 2021, 11:41:46 AM
If you stroll though my late roman army I have a few units from my Gordian III army that also served with Julian, you will see in the notes

https://stormandconquest.blogspot.com/search/label/Late%20Roman (https://stormandconquest.blogspot.com/search/label/Late%20Roman)

cheers
Matt
Title: Re: Julian's Persian expedition; Which Legions and Cohorts Involved?
Post by: Atheling on October 23, 2021, 11:57:38 AM
If you stroll though my late roman army I have a few units from my Gordian III army that also served with Julian, you will see in the notes

https://stormandconquest.blogspot.com/search/label/Late%20Roman (https://stormandconquest.blogspot.com/search/label/Late%20Roman)

cheers
Matt

Thanks Matt, that's excellent!  8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: Julian's Persian expedition; Which Legions and Cohorts Involved?
Post by: bluewillow on October 23, 2021, 05:41:32 PM
happy to be of service!
Title: Re: Julian's Persian expedition; Which Legions and Cohorts Involved?
Post by: Atheling on October 23, 2021, 06:10:26 PM
happy to be of service!

It's appreciated mate  8)
Title: Re: Julian's Persian expedition; Which Legions and Cohorts Involved?
Post by: Ten Fingered Jack on October 23, 2021, 08:57:16 PM
It's ironic that the Gallic army mutinied and acclaimed Julian emperor because Constantius II wanted to draft vexillations from it for a campaign against Persia. After Constantius' death from disease, the Gallic troops marched East with Julian on his disastrous Persian campaign.
Title: Re: Julian's Persian expedition; Which Legions and Cohorts Involved?
Post by: Shahbahraz on October 23, 2021, 09:34:38 PM
And a note of caution on Sidebottom. He is very good on Romans, not so much on Persians. But a good read none the less.
Title: Re: Julian's Persian expedition; Which Legions and Cohorts Involved?
Post by: pallard on October 25, 2021, 11:14:34 AM
Hi Shahbahraz
Could you be a little more specific ? I'm very interested in Sassanid Persians. And I do like Sidebottom's novels.
Philippe