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Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: Atheling on October 22, 2021, 05:25:24 PM

Title: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
Post by: Atheling on October 22, 2021, 05:25:24 PM
Hi,

My quest for finding decent sets of rules for the Classical, Early Medieval and Late Medieval period continues. I'm considering buying Sword and Spear but wanted to make sure that it lined up with my collection as it is based. My days of rebasing units are long in the past.

So, can Sword and spear be used with units of the sizes depicted below:
Anglo Danes- based on 6 x 40mm x 40mm bases
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-L3KSAGgfz94/YRzVzUAM-GI/AAAAAAABH0Q/buUdBl07k5wgyk1oKzQj2u1KeJ6ODvUsgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/ANGLO%2BDANES%2BUNIT%2B1B.jpg)

Early Byzantines- Infantry based on 6 x 40mm frontage by 60mm depth- Cavalry on 6 x 50mm x 50mm bases
Goths are the same as the Early Byzantines
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-wzU7illE3ik/YSzSkKcGplI/AAAAAAABH4s/QukwkriIHTU0yyL6dOiTnN9rB7U1btOkACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/AVENTINE%2BBHI%2BABOVE%2B1C.jpg)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Mq0USagaauQ/YPrburwYrVI/AAAAAAABHYo/TgkzpAHVxKMh_Vu5YU--inpkV2pYgCe7gCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/GOTHS%2BA%2BUNIT%2B1B.jpg)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-dH4OEUO_CWg/YPK_Zfe0pAI/AAAAAAABHOI/TFVHp_fFclgxr1Xl_ZDPavXCHczNO16LgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1500/BYZ%2BSKUT%2B1C.jpg)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6cFWXHbJ7jA/YPLBQ0TI1eI/AAAAAAABHQU/kuOFIp1dRU0E6LwDT8aEiPSodOnZKq7hwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/UNARMOURED%2BGREEN%2BUNIT%2BABOVE%2B1A.jpg)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rE2RdCKT42o/YPLChR35wrI/AAAAAAABHRs/zPOEs05S3oQ3hrMC7f03xkgIL9zWCoNEgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/BOUKELLAROI%2BABOVE%2B1B.jpg)
Title: Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
Post by: pogo on October 22, 2021, 05:51:17 PM
As long as both sites have units of same width there is no problem
Title: Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
Post by: Atheling on October 22, 2021, 06:38:17 PM
As long as both sites have units of same width there is no problem

What sort of table size would I be looking at for armies based on my metric? Quite large games in 28mm?
Title: Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
Post by: pallard on October 22, 2021, 06:39:07 PM
Hi Atheling
I don't know much about Sword and Spear, but what I see about these rules make me think of trying to make a burger with Beluga caviar... is it "decent" food?
Come on! such beautifully painted miniatures deserve much better.
Why not try Comitatus, with adaptations for the bases ready as you can fix the level of troops represented.
Just my opinion.
Philippe
Title: Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
Post by: Phil Portway on October 22, 2021, 07:16:27 PM
Sword & spear is great as a set of rules, been playing it for years and I have probably got many opponents to play as they are easy to learn but have subtleties within the units.

My 15mm are based as DBM/ ADLG, but my 28mm are all based with 5 man frontage, whether it be Foot of horse.

The answer to your question is this:
You can keep your troops based as is as the DU (Distant Unit - move & and shoot distance) is half your unit Frontage. This means Bow armed foot could move 3DU and shoot 4DU. If your frontage if 120mm this DU would be 60mm, hence move 180mm and shoot 240mm.

My Foot units are 100mm wide and Horse are 125mm wide, but I still use 1 DU to equal 60mm. It does not matter if units are slightly larger or smaller, because when the fight the units are always offset. None f this corner to corner fighting nonsense!

FB Page:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/173753339627986

Website:
http://polkovnik.moonfruit.com/sword-spear/4583102656

A 400 point game in 28mm fits on a 6x4 but really an 8 by 4 is better!

 
Title: Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
Post by: Atheling on October 22, 2021, 08:18:48 PM
Hi Atheling
I don't know much about Sword and Spear, but what I see about these rules make me think of trying to make a burger with Beluga caviar... is it "decent" food?
Come on! such beautifully painted miniatures deserve much better.
Why not try Comitatus, with adaptations for the bases ready as you can fix the level of troops represented.
Just my opinion.
Philippe

First of all thank you for the kind words  8)

It's the size of the units in Comitatus that puts me off Phillipe. Every image of a Comitatus game i have seen seems to involve quite thin lines of single miniatures, which just doesn't fit my own personal preferences.

Am I wrong? Does Comitatus have flexible basing so that i could use units say, with a 120mm frontage by 80-120mm depth?

Sword & spear is great as a set of rules, been playing it for years and I have probably got many opponents to play as they are easy to learn but have subtleties within the units.

My 15mm are based as DBM/ ADLG, but my 28mm are all based with 5 man frontage, whether it be Foot of horse.

What is the depth of such units Phil?

The answer to your question is this:
You can keep your troops based as is as the DU (Distant Unit - move & and shoot distance) is half your unit Frontage. This means Bow armed foot could move 3DU and shoot 4DU. If your frontage if 120mm this DU would be 60mm, hence move 180mm and shoot 240mm.

So my deep units would not be effected by the rules in any adverse way? For example- making flank attacks on deeper units easier?

My Foot units are 100mm wide and Horse are 125mm wide, but I still use 1 DU to equal 60mm. It does not matter if units are slightly larger or smaller, because when the fight the units are always offset. None f this corner to corner fighting nonsense!

I've never been a fan of "clipping". I was hoping in this day and age that sort of stuff would have died with DBM etc

It's the depth that I'm concerned about not the frontage. I get the frontage equated to it's movement but how would my deeper units (dimensions in my original post) be effected by the rules?

FB Page:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/173753339627986

Website:
http://polkovnik.moonfruit.com/sword-spear/4583102656

Funnily enough I was just looking at the Polkovnik Forum earlier and getting bombarded by some sort of credit system! I moved swiftly on. No offence but I felt harassed!

A 400 point game in 28mm fits on a 6x4 but really an 8 by 4 is better!
[/quote]
Title: Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
Post by: mellis1644 on October 22, 2021, 08:24:33 PM
I like sword and spear and it will work for any base size. But be careful of army min/maxing as it is not to from my experience a great game when people are too competitive.

Before covid we tried a few systems in our group. Here is the write up for Sword and Spear https://mellis1644.wordpress.com/2019/10/19/age-of-arthur-game-of-sword-and-spear/

In the end we decided to use ADLG. We did not try impetus but that was something we wanted to try.
Title: Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
Post by: SJWi on October 23, 2021, 04:39:07 AM
Atheling, I have never played "Sword and Spear" but do have a copy that I bought at a show a few years ago. Reading them, I guess the answer to your original question is in the line from the book "Groups of figures are organised into units. These should be of equal frontage.  The depth is not so important, but it is best that they have roughly equal depths for the same types of units"

Our group's "go to" rules are Simon Miller's "To the Strongest", but I realise they are not everybody's cup of tea .I bought "Sword and Spear" as an impulse buy as the author was demo-ing them at the show. I read them once and thought they weren't a better bet than TTS and I have got to the age where I only want one set of rules per period as I get easily confused and forget which mechanisms are from which ruleset.  I have played Impetus but didn't particularly like them and dumped them when TTs came on the market.

If you do want Sword and Spear you could have my pristine copy for £10 including P&P.

Regards

       

 
Title: Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
Post by: Atheling on October 23, 2021, 07:27:10 AM
I like sword and spear and it will work for any base size.

Interesting as that's not the impression I'm getting thus far. Units seem to be one base width in depth? Is this correct? If not can you give me examples of units of a similar size to mine that you have used please?

But be careful of army min/maxing as it is not to from my experience a great game when people are too competitive.

That's really not my style anyway so not to worry at all. I cannot stand Win at All Costs players. I tend to avoid them like the plague as is sensible.

Before covid we tried a few systems in our group. Here is the write up for Sword and Spear https://mellis1644.wordpress.com/2019/10/19/age-of-arthur-game-of-sword-and-spear/

Cheers, I'll take a peek this morning.

In the end we decided to use ADLG. We did not try impetus but that was something we wanted to try.

I've used Impetus a few years ago (in fact, if you take the front rank of bases on all my units they could easily be used for Impetus) and quite enjoyed the games. Still, no one I know is playing and I want to try a few new rules systems but they have to be able to take the size of the units above as it is for a display game which is why, among a few other reasons, the units were based in such a manner- for visual effect.
Title: Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
Post by: Atheling on October 23, 2021, 07:34:27 AM
I like sword and spear and it will work for any base size.

Interesting as that's not the impression I'm getting thus far. Units seem to be one base width in depth? Is this correct? If not can you give me examples of units of a similar size to mine that you have used please?

But be careful of army min/maxing as it is not to from my experience a great game when people are too competitive.

That's really not my style anyway so not to worry at all. I cannot stand Win at All Costs players. I tend to avoid them like the plague as is sensible.

Before covid we tried a few systems in our group. Here is the write up for Sword and Spear https://mellis1644.wordpress.com/2019/10/19/age-of-arthur-game-of-sword-and-spear/

Cheers, I'll take a peek this morning.

In the end we decided to use ADLG. We did not try impetus but that was something we wanted to try.

I've used Impetus a few years ago (in fact, if you take the front rank of bases on all my units they could easily be used for Impetus) and quite enjoyed the games. Still, no one I know is playing and I want to try a few new rules systems but they have to be able to take the size of the units above as it is for a display game which is why, among a few other reasons, the units were based in such a manner- for visual effect.

Atheling, I have never played "Sword and Spear" but do have a copy that I bought at a show a few years ago. Reading them, I guess the answer to your original question is in the line from the book "Groups of figures are organised into units. These should be of equal frontage.  The depth is not so important, but it is best that they have roughly equal depths for the same types of units"

I don't understand, how can depth not be important when it comes to flank charge opportunities?

Our group's "go to" rules are Simon Miller's "To the Strongest", but I realise they are not everybody's cup of tea .I bought "Sword and Spear" as an impulse buy as the author was demo-ing them at the show. I read them once and thought they weren't a better bet than TTS and I have got to the age where I only want one set of rules per period as I get easily confused and forget which mechanisms are from which ruleset.  I have played Impetus but didn't particularly like them and dumped them when TTs came on the market.

I've played TtS a number of times when it was first released and enjoyed the games immensely. In fact, I think we were the first HYW players Simon encountered and we was a bit of info exchanged to and fro. Unfortunately, no one at the club plays it anymore.

I'm looking for a set of rules for the Battle of Dara Display game me and ma good mate of mine have planned (Covid dependent) so I really need to know about the relation of the depth of the flanks of a unit and how this effects the likely hood of said unit being flanked?  ??? ??? ???

If you do want Sword and Spear you could have my pristine copy for £10 including P&P.

If it's pristine and you're in the UK, I may well take you up on that SJWi- do you want to PM me the details please?

Cheers all. :)
Title: Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
Post by: monkeylite on October 23, 2021, 09:12:53 AM
Interesting as that's not the impression I'm getting thus far. Units seem to be one base width in depth? Is this correct? If not can you give me examples of units of a similar size to mine that you have used please?

That's really not my style anyway so not to worry at all. I cannot stand Win at All Costs players. I tend to avoid them like the plague as is sensible.
It will work for any base size but not at the same time, iyswim. You can have 60mm frontage if your opponent has 60mm frontage. As has already been mentioned, however, it's not vital to the millimetre. Eg, I play with 110mm frontage but have played games against 100mm and 120mm with no problems. And I'm pretty sure I could play with even bigger disparities without any issues.

I'd have no problem with fielding slightly different frontage in the same army, but fwiw, I might consider fielding your cavalry as 100mm frontage to go slightly better with your 120mm infantry units.

Depth isn't really an issue with flanking because you can only ever fit one unit into the flank of an opponent. I suppose if you have more depth than frontage you could maybe make the rule that you can only be flanked by one unit.

'Large units' are recognised by depth, so if you are fielding large units (and there aren't that many in the historical lists) you should make it clear which are which, but apart from that depth doesn't really come into it.

fwiw I play with 70mm depth for normal infantry and 110mm for the depth of Large units. But because of the size of horse models, I play 110mm depth for cavalry. It's never been an issue, especially as you don't get Large units of cavalry. In another period I play all units are 110mm * 110mm (except large units) simply because I have more figures.

With my 15mm figures, I regularly play my 50mm depth units against DBM or HotT units of what? 20mm and 15mm depth? without any problems.

I think there is an issue with points costs for some abilities. Armour especially feels a bit cheap. If you use historical army lists then it probably won't be much of a problem. I regularly play with some pretty competitive fantasy opponents and there's been a definite creep towards high discipline armoured troops, to get the best bang for your buck.
Title: Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
Post by: Phil Portway on October 23, 2021, 09:26:33 AM
I think there is an issue with points costs for some abilities. Armour especially feels a bit cheap. If you use historical army lists then it probably won't be much of a problem. I regularly play with some pretty competitive fantasy opponents and there's been a definite creep towards high discipline armoured troops, to get the best bang for your buck.

But their armies would be smaller as higher unit costs. Restricted troops as well will negate some power players unless they are cheating.... Wargamers cheat?  no surely not!  lol lol lol
Title: Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
Post by: monkeylite on October 23, 2021, 09:31:26 AM
But their armies would be smaller as higher unit costs. Restricted troops as well will negate some power players unless they are cheating.... Wargamers cheat?  no surely not!  lol lol lol
Yeah, we had a phase of tournaments with 15mm fantasy, with just creating whatever armies you wanted without referencing the fantasy army lists, and even though more dice means more options, you could see that the armies were getting smaller and smaller but more effective. I teased one opponent because he turned up with an entire Orc army of discipline 3, but he got revenge when I decided my eagles were armoured.
Title: Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
Post by: SteveBurt on October 23, 2021, 09:52:19 AM
I use my 28mm figures for Sword and Spear. They are all based DBx style, so with 60mm frontage. Units for S&S are two of those bases wide, and one, two, three of four bases deep, depending on troop type. Unit depth doesn’t matter, and a 6x4 table allows a good size game.
Title: Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
Post by: Atheling on October 23, 2021, 10:19:09 AM
Thanks to monkeylite, Phil Portway and SteveBurt.

It will work for any base size but not at the same time, iyswim. You can have 60mm frontage if your opponent has 60mm frontage. As has already been mentioned, however, it's not vital to the millimetre. Eg, I play with 110mm frontage but have played games against 100mm and 120mm with no problems. And I'm pretty sure I could play with even bigger disparities without any issues.

iyswim?

That sounds good for the frontage as all  my units tend to be on 40mm wide bases, three to a unit (but obviously these can be expanded to suit taste/rules)

I'd have no problem with fielding slightly different frontage in the same army, but fwiw, I might consider fielding your cavalry as 100mm frontage to go slightly better with your 120mm infantry units.

The Cavalry would look really odd 100mm wide. I could only manage 80mm which would destroy the aesthetic that I have carefully put together for each unit- these are 120mm wide and just wouldn't have the same visual impact with a lesser frontage- the rules I'm looking for are for a display game:
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-X-_WUgsPtB8/YI8GbOxQfGI/AAAAAAABGTg/d9AjrE3IJRw2uXA2_5b9i3f76JQ6XoUlgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/BOUKELLAROI%2BABOVE%2B1A.jpg)

Depth isn't really an issue with flanking because you can only ever fit one unit into the flank of an opponent. I suppose if you have more depth than frontage you could maybe make the rule that you can only be flanked by one unit.

That's great but with a frontage of what would be 80mm for Cavalry it is just not going to work for me.

'Large units' are recognised by depth, so if you are fielding large units (and there aren't that many in the historical lists) you should make it clear which are which, but apart from that depth doesn't really come into it.

If there aren't many deep units (mostly infantry and classical Cataphracts right?) it's looking very much like these rules aren't going to work for Belisarius' Wars/Early Byzantine Wars. Bummer  :'(

I think there is an issue with points costs for some abilities. Armour especially feels a bit cheap. If you use historical army lists then it probably won't be much of a problem. I regularly play with some pretty competitive fantasy opponents and there's been a definite creep towards high discipline armoured troops, to get the best bang for your buck.

There are always issues with points in any system. As it's for a display game that wouldn't really come into it anyway. The game will be lopsided in terms of troops etc
Title: Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
Post by: monkeylite on October 23, 2021, 10:58:58 AM

iyswim?

That sounds good for the frontage as all  my units tend to be on 40mm wide bases, three to a unit (but obviously these can be expanded to suit taste/rules)

The Cavalry would look really odd 100mm wide. I could only manage 80mm which would destroy the aesthetic that I have carefully put together for each unit- these are 120mm wide and just wouldn't have the same visual impact with a lesser frontage- the rules I'm looking for are for a display game:
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-X-_WUgsPtB8/YI8GbOxQfGI/AAAAAAABGTg/d9AjrE3IJRw2uXA2_5b9i3f76JQ6XoUlgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/BOUKELLAROI%2BABOVE%2B1A.jpg)

That's great but with a frontage of what would be 80mm for Cavalry it is just not going to work for me.

If there aren't many deep units (mostly infantry and classical Cataphracts right?) it's looking very much like these rules aren't going to work for Belisarius' Wars/Early Byzantine Wars. Bummer  :'(

There are always issues with points in any system. As it's for a display game that wouldn't really come into it anyway. The game will be lopsided in terms of troops etc
iyswim = If you see what I mean.

Sorry, I misread your post, I thought you were saying your cavalry bases were 50mm wide, so I was thinking that 100mm would work, ie two bases. If they're 40mm wide then use three bases for 120mm.

Again, it was just a suggestion. S&S is quite forgiving for frontages coz although it stipulates the same frontages in the rules, the way the units conform leaves plenty of wiggle room.
Title: Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
Post by: Atheling on October 23, 2021, 12:23:43 PM
iyswim = If you see what I mean.

Sorry, I misread your post, I thought you were saying your cavalry bases were 50mm wide, so I was thinking that 100mm would work, ie two bases. If they're 40mm wide then use three bases for 120mm.

Again, it was just a suggestion. S&S is quite forgiving for frontages coz although it stipulates the same frontages in the rules, the way the units conform leaves plenty of wiggle room.

No worries.

A few guys from my club are going to give me a game when I can safely return that is.

I'll see how it goes from there.
Title: Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
Post by: pallard on October 24, 2021, 05:20:00 PM
Sword and spear might be better than I thought after all, but I too like to stick to one rule per period ( with a lot of difficulties...).
Comitatus does advocate for specific number of miniatures per type of troops for separate stands, but in no way is it imperative. You just have to respect a common scale for both armies.
Philippe
Title: Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
Post by: Atheling on October 24, 2021, 06:49:04 PM
Sword and spear might be better than I thought after all, but I too like to stick to one rule per period ( with a lot of difficulties...).
Comitatus does advocate for specific number of miniatures per type of troops for separate stands, but in no way is it imperative. You just have to respect a common scale for both armies.
Philippe

I used to have a copy on my old laptop, which I didn't actually get around to reading, but I'm not really willing to pay for copy twice.

Otherwise I would consider it.

Title: Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
Post by: mellis1644 on October 25, 2021, 02:57:32 PM
Yeah, we had a phase of tournaments with 15mm fantasy, with just creating whatever armies you wanted without referencing the fantasy army lists, and even though more dice means more options, you could see that the armies were getting smaller and smaller but more effective. I teased one opponent because he turned up with an entire Orc army of discipline 3, but he got revenge when I decided my eagles were armoured.

I found there was/is an optimum style of army in S&S. Have a core/majority of very tough, skilled, armored fighting units and then a some die generating but rarely using them troops in a 'cheering section'. The later ensured that all the core army got to move and do what they want and the cheering section sat at the back as a target and die generators

For display games where you set both sides you can avoid that and good lists can also avoid it but it's a temptation for people who want to win.

I like the game but in some ways it lacks the rock/paper/scissors of different troops types in some ancients games.
Title: Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
Post by: Atheling on October 25, 2021, 03:05:58 PM
I found there was/is an optimum style of army in S&S. Have a core/majority of very tough, skilled, armored fighting units and then a some die generating but rarely using them troops in a 'cheering section'. The later ensured that all the core army got to move and do what they want and the cheering section sat at the back as a target and die generators

For display games where you set both sides you can avoid that and good lists can also avoid it but it's a temptation for people who want to win.

I like the game but in some ways it lacks the rock/paper/scissors of different troops types in some ancients games.

There are a few crucial factors in my mind that we need for the game.

1/ The rules need to be able to reflect the tactics of the day, which were often quite sophisticated.

2/ The rules need to adequately reflect that supporting units in the battle line would support one another and that major breakthroughs, all of s sudden are unlikely. Swordpoint seems to do this extremely well but it quite involved when it comes to combat.

3/ The rules have to fit the units we have painted up on aesthetic grounds and not the other way around

If S&P cannot do this then it is out of the window I'm afraid. I'm not knocking the rules, but from what I've generally read in this thread, they don't seem to fit the criteria that we a re looking for.
Title: Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
Post by: Phil Portway on October 26, 2021, 09:06:52 AM
We have used S & S for about 5 demo big games now and folks that come to the game can even get to play a turn if they want.

We use stat chits on the units.

Great for demo & party games. Played a big party game at our club the other day 3 of the 4 players had never played before and picked up the basics very quickly.

Salute game in 2018 1000 points each side
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/nn208/1815philip/Salute%202018/.highres/DSC01862_zpsnz08mugr.jpg?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/1815philip/a/c3de6179-6d02-4597-87c8-15f78fb301da/p/3acd0bf3-8c71-45ee-b4a4-602a770793cc)

Club game couple of weeks ago 1300 points per side
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/nn208/1815philip/DSC09322.JPG?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/1815philip/a/d2766c0d-904a-4dca-8b1b-8934f271524b/p/d93ed89a-2ca8-4866-a769-45cd1cf6d71a)

Salute 2019 about 1500 points per side
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/nn208/1815philip/Salute%202019/.highres/DSC03564_zpsgwv1x90e.jpg?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/1815philip/a/0af2cc2d-ee69-425c-9aa3-b7b3cc0c4529/p/050fffa7-1bb0-4b53-a35b-d791cd81b560)
Title: Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
Post by: Atheling on October 26, 2021, 01:14:00 PM
We have used S & S for about 5 demo big games now and folks that come to the game can even get to play a turn if they want.

We use stat chits on the units.

Great for demo & party games. Played a big party game at our club the other day 3 of the 4 players had never played before and picked up the basics very quickly.

Interesting.... you units are more or less the same size as ours. though ours are a little deeper to accomodate the Aventine Miniatures.

Looks like, after all, it might be worth looking into in a bit more detail. Food for thought!

Would it be too much trouble if I asked you to list the size of the whole units Phil?

1/ Heavy Infantry?

2/ Light Non Skirmishing Infantry?

3/ Skirmish infantry?

4/ Heavy Cavalry?

5/ Extra Heavy Cavalry?

6/ Medium Cavalry?

7/ Light Non Skirmishing Cavalry?

8/ Skirmish Cavalry?

:)

Title: Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
Post by: Phil Portway on October 26, 2021, 04:31:22 PM
1/ Heavy Infantry? Footprints used - Frontage 100mm Depth 80mm or deeper for Large units Depth 100 mm (5 ranks)  All my spear armed medium foot are on he above size too!

2/ Light Non Skirmishing Infantry?  MEDIUM Shooting Foot,     Footprints used - Frontage 100mm Depth 60mm

3/ Skirmish infantry? Footprints used - Frontage 100mm Depth 40mm
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/nn208/1815philip/Crusades/.highres/DSC00568_zps8eksvvsh.jpg?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/1815philip/a/cdbb5a9b-1689-4974-8aef-4efbe55adc56/p/338bf5fe-7061-4371-8bdf-0f0449f417c9)

4/ Heavy Cavalry? Footprints used - Frontage 125mm Depth 100mm
5/ Extra Heavy Cavalry? Footprints used - Frontage 125mm Depth 100mm (although one pal uses 3 ranks Depth 150mm)
6/ Medium Cavalry?  Footprints used - Frontage 125mm Depth 100mm
7/ Light Non Skirmishing Cavalry?  Footprints used - Frontage 125mm Depth 100mm

8/ Skirmish Cavalry?   Footprints used - Frontage 125mm Depth 50mm

General - More than 2 figures
Captain - 1 or 2 figures
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/nn208/1815philip/Muslim%20Army%2028mm/.highres/DSC00581_zpsqa1wpuj9.jpg?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/1815philip/a/995bc1a6-ebd5-4945-bc1c-2db09e9eaafb/p/7389d3cf-7ad7-42b3-a4ed-18f4a6604279?mode=zoom)
 
Title: Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
Post by: Atheling on October 26, 2021, 07:48:04 PM
Many thanks for going to the trouble of answering my rather clunky question Phil.

So, not so different at all really which makes the rules worth looking at.

do you know of any video run throughs (on YouTube perhaps) that would give me an idea of how the game plays.

I don't just want to buy the rules, read them and not really have an idea of game play so cannot try them out despite two club members asking me if they wanted them to play through the rules with me  :'( (I can't get to the club at present- Covid etc)
Title: Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
Post by: Norm on October 26, 2021, 09:05:08 PM
This is a comprehensive intro

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cab1DPVPRGs
Title: Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
Post by: Atheling on October 27, 2021, 06:50:48 AM
This is a comprehensive intro

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cab1DPVPRGs

Thanks Norm  8)
Title: Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
Post by: Phil Portway on October 27, 2021, 02:25:57 PM
These are by Mark Lewis, the Author. 1 of 4 vids.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50DU7lylob0&t=42s
Title: Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
Post by: Atheling on October 27, 2021, 04:13:47 PM
These are by Mark Lewis, the Author. 1 of 4 vids.

Thanks Phil.  8)
Title: Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
Post by: bluewillow on October 29, 2021, 05:42:41 PM

I've used Impetus a few years ago (in fact, if you take the front rank of bases on all my units they could easily be used for Impetus) and quite enjoyed the games. Still, no one I know is playing and I want to try a few new rules systems but they have to be able to take the size of the units above as it is for a display game which is why, among a few other reasons, the units were based in such a manner- for visual effect.

I was going to suggest Advanced Impetus, I find them the best rules I have used for the ancients and medieval period.

Impetus does play very differently to standard IGoUGO Rock/Paper/Scissors wargaming, the number crunching competition players do not like them because of the unpredictable resolutions and the multiple moves if you pass discipline tests etc.

perhaps train up some locals who would love to play with you superb miniatures?

cheers
Matt
Title: Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
Post by: Atheling on October 30, 2021, 03:26:38 AM
I was going to suggest Advanced Impetus, I find them the best rules I have used for the ancients and medieval period.

I had already considered using Impetus Matt but our unit sized are a lot bogger and there's no way that they are going to be rebased. We have found a formula where we are very happy with the aesthetic look of the units and we're sticking with it  lol

perhaps train up some locals who would love to play with you superb miniatures?

I wish! I'm still housebound re: the lurgy prevalence in England  :-X :-[ :'(

Having said that, things will almost certainly improve next year- I think the lurgy will have played most of it's tricks by then. And the warmer weather for when the game is planned will certainly help. :)
Title: Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
Post by: Polkovnik on November 15, 2021, 11:00:59 PM
If your infantry are on 40mm frontages and your cavalry are on 50mm frontages then you could have units of cavalry 3 bases wide for 150mm frontage and infantry 4 bases wide for 160mm frontage. Then your units would have similar frontage. You could then use 1 DU (distance unit) = 3 inch or 80mm DU .
Base depth should not matter as long as your units are not deeper than they are wide. It would be unusual for a flank charge to be possible only because of the greater depth of the target unit.

I have some spare copies of the rules. If it's for a display game, you can PM me your address and I'll send you a copy.
Title: Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
Post by: Atheling on November 16, 2021, 07:53:40 AM
If your infantry are on 40mm frontages and your cavalry are on 50mm frontages then you could have units of cavalry 3 bases wide for 150mm frontage and infantry 4 bases wide for 160mm frontage. Then your units would have similar frontage. You could then use 1 DU (distance unit) = 3 inch or 80mm DU .
Base depth should not matter as long as your units are not deeper than they are wide. It would be unusual for a flank charge to be possible only because of the greater depth of the target unit.

So it's a matter of getting a close as possible to the requisite/ideal base sizes?

I have some spare copies of the rules. If it's for a display game, you can PM me your address and I'll send you a copy.

Thanks, that's very kind of you.  I'll PM you though I must be honest, whether we use them as a display game depends on how they suit the period we are playing.
Title: Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
Post by: Polkovnik on November 17, 2021, 09:58:03 PM
So it's a matter of getting a close as possible to the requisite/ideal base sizes?

Not exactly in that there isn't a requisite/ideal base size. It's just a matter of having all of your unit frontages as close as possible to each other. A small difference between frontages won't be much of a problem, but bigger differences could be, especially if there are long opposing battlelines with different unit frontages.
Title: Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
Post by: Atheling on November 18, 2021, 05:55:55 AM
Not exactly in that there isn't a requisite/ideal base size. It's just a matter of having all of your unit frontages as close as possible to each other. A small difference between frontages won't be much of a problem, but bigger differences could be, especially if there are long opposing battlelines with different unit frontages.

I think we would have to go for 150mm long for Heavy and Medium Cav (they're based on 50mm x 50mm- 2 per base/6 bases per unit), 160mm for Skrimishing Cav (based on 100mm x 50mm- 2 per base/6 bases per unit though we could get away with four bases) and 120mm for Infantry (40mm wide x 50mm or 60mm deep- 4 per base/6 per unit).