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Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: Doom Beard 78 on November 20, 2021, 12:31:01 PM

Title: Hellas V Macedonia
Post by: Doom Beard 78 on November 20, 2021, 12:31:01 PM
I have just under  1000 painted figures of Hellenes and Barbaroi (( Macedonians) figures are gathering dust through lack of use .  I have managed to find a club  close to me and was thinking of staging a large game using the figures but am at a loss as to which rules  to use for a game set at this scale

I find it impossible to get excited the element games derived from the DBX stable ( which includes ADLG) 
Hail Caesar has the right aesthetics ( I.e. proper sized units)  but I found that games of it for this period were stodgy drawn out affairs , whilst this might be considered an accurate depiction of this type of combat ( and I hope not to ignite a discussion on this theme) it hardly gave an enjoyable game for this period.

I am not interested in the Lion rampant stable and have no interest in grids, I have therefore ruled out  To The Strongest so please do not suggest it.

Does a suitable system exits, or am I going to have to be creative and devise my own,
Title: Re: Hellas V Macedonia
Post by: Atheling on November 20, 2021, 12:51:46 PM
Swordpoint?  :D

I think you would like the line of battle concept George. Especially with pike phalanxes/phalanges fighting it out.

i read the rules again and despite it being derived from WAB it has moved quite a distance away from one elite unit smashes the centre of your line and your army disintegrates which used to happen all too often with WAB.

The movement is refined and simple. Combats last much longer and there seems to be more of an ebb and flow during battle.

Of course, I'm yet to play a game due to you know what so I have no lived experience with the rules.

They have a good To the Ends of the Earth Supplement. Alas it end at 209 BC.
Title: Re: Hellas V Macedonia
Post by: Doom Beard 78 on November 20, 2021, 01:32:27 PM
Have you tried Impetus, the rules have 160x60 unit sizes for heavy infantry which In my view is a good size. Would give me 10 hoplites, 12 units of phalangites, 2 units of hypaspist

The basing for Swordpoint of 40x40 squares kind off turns me off ( A lot of my heavy infantry were multibased using 60x20, or 60x40 bases)
Title: Re: Hellas V Macedonia
Post by: Kugelfang on November 20, 2021, 07:33:44 PM
It's been a few years since I looked at it but I'd take a look at Greg Wagman's 'Age of Hannibal' available on Wargame Vault. (https://www.wargamevault.com/product/253180/Age-of-Hannibal (https://www.wargamevault.com/product/253180/Age-of-Hannibal)). IIRC, it does work better with square bases, but with your numbers you could use three 60x20 elements to represent a unit. Might need to do some tweaking for other troop types.
Title: Re: Hellas V Macedonia
Post by: Johnp4000 on November 20, 2021, 09:24:01 PM
George, you should try a small game of swordpoint as maintaining the line is a focus of the game which would suit pike blocks. The Age of Hannibal , I have only seen as a 6mm game although in theory it can be scaled up and it has the advantage of being based around the Macedonian and Punic wars. Little Wars TV has a video on youtube showing the battle of Trebbia, unfortunately it doesn't show a lot of the game!
Title: Re: Hellas V Macedonia
Post by: AdamPHayes on November 20, 2021, 10:06:43 PM
Piquet works well for big games. The specific period variant is Archon 2. Scares the beejesus out of some people due to a bit of unorthodoxy in the choice of some mechanisms... I think the related game Pulse of Battle is a bit less “challenging” but I haven’t tried them.

(https://myalbum.com/photo/hggPP7gbGLKP/540.jpg)

Battle of Paraitakene at Society of Ancients Battle Day.
Title: Re: Hellas V Macedonia
Post by: SteveBurt on November 21, 2021, 10:17:50 AM
Have a look at Sword and Spear. Maybe Armati is worth a look as well.
Field of Glory is quite good; proper units, but not the fastest playing
Title: Re: Hellas V Macedonia
Post by: williamb on November 21, 2021, 03:37:58 PM
Scutarii from Hoplite Research https://www.lulu.com/en/us/shop/william-butler/broadsword_scutarii-tournament/paperback/product-1mwvzvp6.html?page=1&pageSize=4 (https://www.lulu.com/en/us/shop/william-butler/broadsword_scutarii-tournament/paperback/product-1mwvzvp6.html?page=1&pageSize=4)
which is designed for fighting large battles in an afternoon or evening.  figures in image are 6mm, but rules can also be used for larger figures

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-E1R9fpkbjLA/WtYrmf9lnXI/AAAAAAAAC38/C9VGAUYKoLwJDruiTZ_7eBlqETXrQzYBgCLcBGAs/s1600/DSCF0831.JPG)
Title: Re: Hellas V Macedonia
Post by: Melnibonean on November 23, 2021, 09:30:35 PM
I recommend To The Strongest. Very simple game mechanics that work extremely well. Players will easily pick up the rules after one or maybe two turns. Very easy to finish a large battle in an afternoon.
Title: Re: Hellas V Macedonia
Post by: SJWi on November 24, 2021, 05:28:07 AM
Melnibonean, I don’t think you read Doom Beard’s now edited opening piece. TTS “doesn’t do it for him”…..and that’s putting it mildly!

 Doom Beard, I saw your question about Impetus. Whilst popular with some of our club members I tried them and just couldn’t get on with them. Can’t really put my finger on it.

 I too like TTS but if I was looking at another set for 28mm I would check out Sword and Spear v2 ( Great Escape Games) or Gripping Beast’s Swordpoint. I have also heard good things about PSC’s “Mortem et Gloriam” but no direct experience myself. However, any rules that make it to a version 2 must have something going for them.

 My problem was the basing. I had several armies based for Impetus and the 12cm wide units fitted perfectly for TTS but were less useful for other rules sets.
Title: Re: Hellas V Macedonia
Post by: Atheling on November 24, 2021, 09:40:42 AM
I too like TTS but if I was looking at another set for 28mm I would check out Sword and Spear v2 ( Great Escape Games) or Gripping Beast’s Swordpoint. I have also heard good things about PSC’s “Mortem et Gloriam” but no direct experience myself. However, any rules that make it to a version 2 must have something going for them.

As SJW has pointed out, Doombeard has indicated that he is not interested in TtS. I know that he has had extensive experience of TtS, including being friends with and playing with the author.

Title: Re: Hellas V Macedonia
Post by: Johnp4000 on November 24, 2021, 10:55:15 AM
As SJW has pointed out, Doombeard has indicated that he is not interested in TtS. I know that he has had extensive experience of TtS, including being friends with and playing with the author.

Darrell, I think it is comical just how frequent people blatantly ignore the OP in their rush to plug a set of rules. Doombeard was involved in the playtesting of TTS, and just doesn't like the rules hence his frustration when people keep recommending the rules to him! This seems to happen on all forums now, I remember you posting a question about unit size in Comitatus, several replies but no one answered the question, all the responses were just again plugs for other sets of rules.
Title: Re: Hellas V Macedonia
Post by: Atheling on November 24, 2021, 12:09:02 PM
Darrell, I think it is comical just how frequent people blatantly ignore the OP in their rush to plug a set of rules. Doombeard was involved in the playtesting of TTS, and just doesn't like the rules hence his frustration when people keep recommending the rules to him! This seems to happen on all forums now, I remember you posting a question about unit size in Comitatus, several replies but no one answered the question, all the responses were just again plugs for other sets of rules.

Indeed. :)
Title: Re: Hellas V Macedonia
Post by: trev on November 24, 2021, 02:16:02 PM
How about DBA or Lion Rampant?   ;)
Title: Re: Hellas V Macedonia
Post by: Atheling on November 24, 2021, 03:40:16 PM
How about DBA or Lion Rampant?   ;)

A wee reminder of the original post:

I have just under  1000 painted figures of Hellenes and Barbaroi (( Macedonians) figures are gathering dust through lack of use .  I have managed to find a club  close to me and was thinking of staging a large game using the figures but am at a loss as to which rules  to use for a game set at this scale

I find it impossible to get excited the element games derived from the DBX stable ( which includes ADLG

I am not interested in the Lion rampant stable and have no interest in grids, I have therefore ruled out  To The Strongest so please do not suggest it.

Does a suitable system exits, or am I going to have to be creative and devise my own,
Title: Re: Hellas V Macedonia
Post by: Major_Gilbear on November 24, 2021, 04:10:45 PM
Does a suitable system exist, or am I going to have to be creative and devise my own
I can completely understand why you might want something "off the peg", but if you have something that's close enough, it would seem to me to be easier to adapt that than writing something from scratch.

For example, if you like Hail Caesar but not the combat, could you tweak the combat to make it more decisive and less of a grind?

As for my own 2 denarii, what about Warhammer Ancient Battles? I know it can be clunky, but I am virtually certain most/all of it is familiar to you already (judging from your WHFB High Elf thread), and that would make it easier if you wanted to kludge any rules. Another alternative is Kings of War Historical, which would certainly give you fast gameplay but might not be very historical...


(@ Aethling: I think trev knows that, and was just making a joke based on other posters suggesting things that had already been ruled out - hence the wink!  ;)   )
Title: Re: Hellas V Macedonia
Post by: Atheling on November 24, 2021, 04:27:31 PM

(@ Aethling: I think trev knows that, and was just making a joke based on other posters suggesting things that had already been ruled out - hence the wink!  ;)   )

Yeah, I got that. But given that this thread has already gone off the beaten track once, with disastrous consequences as Doombeard has now left LAF, I thought a mild adjustment of the rudder was in order  :)
Title: Re: Hellas V Macedonia
Post by: Major_Gilbear on November 24, 2021, 04:33:12 PM
[...] Doombeard has now left LAF [...]
He has? Oh dear, I hope he comes back.  :( 
Title: Re: Hellas V Macedonia
Post by: trev on November 24, 2021, 05:15:28 PM
Sorry Atheling,  I was just being silly.  I'll email him.

T
Title: Re: Hellas V Macedonia
Post by: Atheling on November 24, 2021, 07:30:04 PM
Sorry Atheling,  I was just being silly.  I'll email him.

T

No worries. It was just my attempt to bring the focus back to the gist of the original question :)
Title: Re: Hellas V Macedonia
Post by: Johnp4000 on November 25, 2021, 10:24:26 AM
I think the issue is that most generic sets of ancient rules which cover such a wide period of history, rarely produce a historical game. Most rules sets are the wiz bang types where the game just breaks down into a series of unrelated combats, that can be enjoyable to play but hardly realistic.
I was at a show watching a TTs phalanx game, it was interesting but I don't think it  remotely recreated the Macedonian style. You had 5 battalions of pikemen, three were in line while 2 were in opposite different parts of the table, there didn't seem to be any advantage to remaining in line, or disadvantaged by being deployed so far away from the pike's supports. I would find it difficult to believe that a pike unit would risk its flanks by moving so far away from its supports?
Doom Beard is looking for the holy grail of wargaming a set that rewards period tactics while still being playable! I vaguely remember in the dark days of WRG's domination of the hobby, a set called Hoplite which had a sequel called phalanx that tired to replicate in a narrow period historical tactics. But can't remember any details.
Title: Re: Hellas V Macedonia
Post by: SteveBurt on November 25, 2021, 10:43:56 AM
There is a free set from the Perfect Captain called Hoplomachia, but I think that only covers Hoplite battles, not Macedonian stuff.
Tactica 2 might fit the bill; does require large numbers of figures, and the battle is pretty static, but that is probably realistic.
I would have suggested Strategos, but the OP says he hates grids
Title: Re: Hellas V Macedonia
Post by: bigredbat on November 25, 2021, 11:36:18 AM
Quote
I was at a show watching a TTs phalanx game, it was interesting but I don't think it  remotely recreated the Macedonian style. You had 5 battalions of pikemen, three were in line while 2 were in opposite different parts of the table, there didn't seem to be any advantage to remaining in line, or disadvantaged by being deployed so far away from the pike's supports. I would find it difficult to believe that a pike unit would risk its flanks by moving so far away from its supports?

I'd reply to this but George didn't want to discuss TtS!

George is, like many of us, on the endless quest for the ideal ruleset - in his case to replace his beloved WAB (a great set of rules for which I retain a considerable respect). Rule sets are a very subjective thing- I couldn't find one that I liked sufficiently, so I wrote my own. My hunch would be that George might need to do the same- perhaps another WAB successor set-  unless there are some other WAB opponents out there in reach of north London?
Title: Re: Hellas V Macedonia
Post by: Johnp4000 on November 25, 2021, 12:13:34 PM
I'd reply to this but George didn't want to discuss TtS!

George is, like many of us, on the endless quest for the ideal ruleset - in his case to replace his beloved WAB (a great set of rules for which I retain a considerable respect). Rule sets are a very subjective thing- I couldn't find one that I liked sufficiently, so I wrote my own. My hunch would be that George might need to do the same- perhaps another WAB successor set-  unless there are some other WAB opponents out there in reach of north London?

I think Doom Bread was at this  show and he was telling me, the numerous fails in rulesets at recreating Phalanx warfare. It is a pity that the Successor WAB supplement was never released as I believe this had special rules which tried to add more period favour.

I remember chatting to you at Salute once, about the other ancient holy grail , a rule set that recreates Roman manipular tactics, but as we don't know the details ,any rule set will be subjective as to its accuracy. Although I think WAB had a good attempt, in its Hannibal supplement, most rulesets just ignore it!
Title: Re: Hellas V Macedonia
Post by: SJWi on November 25, 2021, 12:45:35 PM
By the way if someone is looking for “the Successor” to WAB what about Rob Broom’s “War and Conquest”? I was never a fan of WAB but bought War and Conquest when I saw Rob running a Hellenistic game at Partizan in Kelham Hall. He told me that this is the set he planned WAB V2 to be !

 I never played them and sold them on last year but might be if interest.
 
 Simon
Title: Re: Hellas V Macedonia
Post by: bigredbat on November 25, 2021, 01:24:04 PM
Quote
Although I think WAB had a good attempt, in its Hannibal supplement, most rulesets just ignore it!

Yes indeed, many do. It's such a shame WAB lost steam when it was doing what it did rather well. My favourite things about it were the supplements (I think I have all of them) with all the fun special period rules written by enthusiasts and also all the love that people threw into the modelling.

Title: Re: Hellas V Macedonia
Post by: Atheling on November 25, 2021, 07:29:20 PM
Ultimately, we all have out favourites and love to ostentate the merits of each system (I'm as guilty as anyone in that regard!). But, this is not what Doombeard was asking from us. From my reading of his text he made the point of excluding some rules with the purpose of hopefully avoiding the usual answers one gets when one pops a question about recommendations for a rules system.

It's often information overflow at best or at worse, no one actually reads the content of the question and you get dislocated replies.

Doombeard has now left LAF and I get the feeling that he is not going to return. Which is a real shame. He has been a very active member of the Ancients community for many years and has play tested more rules than I have read in my entire life. It is almost certainly to our detriment that we have lost Doombeard IMHO.

That's my two cents and I'm going to bow out now.
Title: Re: Hellas V Macedonia
Post by: swiftnick on November 25, 2021, 08:05:50 PM
That really is a shame.