Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Pikes, Muskets and Flouncy Shirts => Topic started by: Winston on January 09, 2022, 08:58:15 PM
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Hello all, as part of a big, long ECW project, I’m considering scratch building a 28mm sconce. A bit like the one which can still be seen at Newark (Queen’s sconce park). Has anyone ever attempted this / seen any similar projects. Just mulling design, size, materials at the moment. Curious to see if / how it’s been done before.
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http://theleadpile.blogspot.com/2019/04/sconce.html
I built one a couple of years ago. Not sure if it's on the scale you're planning but it'll give you a start.
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thanks for the inspiration, we in our club is just about to start a small campaign of Skånske krig, or the war of Skane, the Danish King Christian V re-invades southern Sweden to reclaim what is rightfully his, after winning the battle of the seas in the bay of Koge.
Would be so awesome to fight over such a piece of terrain.
Im considering to build one me self now :D
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I built one out of blue insulation board in 15mm
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-68U6377qEzE/XcjtQLQDjoI/AAAAAAAAVSs/ai1a5Oen2xUlSZuJz8zo2ajeOi-GmgPMQCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/20191110_221337.jpg)
It is designed to work with the basing system of the Tercio rules. A step-by-step can be found here; https://epicureanwars.blogspot.com/2019/11/this-message-has-not-been-approved-by.html (https://epicureanwars.blogspot.com/2019/11/this-message-has-not-been-approved-by.html)
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Nicely done. :-*
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Nice!
How big where these / what sized force would defend one?
We use For King and Parliament for ECW, so its grid based, and the base unit is a regiment, though smaller units such as forlorn hopes are represented. My starting premise is it would be one grid square sized (which is the width of a regiment) and could be garrisoned by up to a regiment.
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For an idea of size see here https://www.keepyourpowderdry.co.uk/2018/12/the-queens-sconce.html
The second photograph shows the roof of a nearby house and the Queen's Sconce. The house is on a road next to the Sconce. The road and house are at the current ground level, which is slightly lower than the field height of Devon Park (where the Sconce is). As you can see the roof line (two storey) is just below the height of the earthworks. The ditch going down from current ground level is quite hard to gauge - probably 2/3rds the height of the earthworks.
My 15mm Hovels buildings are approx 75mm to the apex of the roof of a two storey house, so using them as a guide the Sconce is roughly 70mm high. Which seems enormous. Maybe 50mm might be a more appropriate height for the earthworks, and about 30mm deep for the ditch?
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The earthworks tend to have a large footprint if you work to scale. I opted for a design with separate 30mm high exp poly central bases onto which I could add bastions etc. The bastion tops could double as conventional siege works and it made storage easier and meant I could also place just a half sconce as an HQ on a table edge if I wanted. It also meant I could have a taller earthwork (60mm high) and mount storming poles without worrying that they would get broken off...
I based mine on the Bulwark at Earith, Cambs, which covered a river crossing. It also had a vestigial hornwork projecting to the road (just visible in the meadow) https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1013282
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Couple of pictures of Earith Bulwark at the bottom of the page here (one when flooded, one 'normal' unflooded): https://www.keepyourpowderdry.co.uk/2019/07/the-cromwell-museum.html
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I have visited the site on more than one occasion and the earthworks are still substantial. The picture from the flooding in 2020 shows the geometry so distinctly... even after all this time! It must have been a godforsaken posting on the edge of the Fens...
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I started a much smaller bastion/sconce a couple of years ago and one of these years I shall actually finish the poor thing!
It's designed for 28mm skirmish so designed to hold a gun, maybe two, and a dozen or so figures at most in a 9"x9" area because that's what Pikeman's Lament suggests for their scenarios.
As mentioned above, and as I discovered and wrote about in my blog post, real scones tend to be massive by wargaming standards, they'd take up half the table in 28mm if done semi-realistically.
Build pics here: http://www.warbard.ca/2019/05/04/a-17th-century-bastion-part-one/
(https://i.imgur.com/wA45Z1g.jpg)
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One trick I've used is to saw the gabions in half and have the earth rampart in front built up taller to mask the lack thereof... Save whole gabions for either side of the gun embrasures. The emplacements look more intimidating and the casts also go twice as far that way ;)
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I made a few but actually not used them much in games. The bigger they are the harder to fit on the table:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fbC0x5Sb/2-DA0-D0-E3-4-AAB-42-FE-96-BC-C7-D375-EC3931.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/rddmT1J6)
(https://i.postimg.cc/V6N04MXW/1-CDEE3-DD-0401-4-F7-B-8-A03-728-E8218-EC2-D.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/sBt2gM6M)
(https://i.postimg.cc/0QHM4QfR/E633-C054-A4-CA-430-C-BB5-C-6-B2247-F4-EFF4.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/phzLhP4q)
I have not fully finished these, they could do with some gabions and some debris etc but they are quite cheap and easy to make:
-Plywood or mdf board in the bottom
-EPS, or preferably blue, foam
-Wood glue
-Sand
-Paint
A wire foam cutter makes it easier to get the right angles on the ramparts but since you cover it all with glue and sand you can cut it with a sharp knife: look forward to see your progress!
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Cool looking projects - I’m thinking of doing this in 10mm so the sconce will naturally be smaller thanks to that. And I have a new hot wire cutter ready to go!
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Some fabulous scratch builds here. I went the ‘lazy’ way and bought one in sections from Pauls Modelling Workshop. Having it in sections makes storage and transport easier, and also allows the use of just part of the fort, on the table edge for example. I realise you want to scratch build, but
I think worth considering if you can make it in parts.
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Thanks all for the pointers. I’ve previously visited the Queen’s sconce in Newark. It’s true that to go exact scale, you’ll end up with something pretty big on say a, 6 x 4 table. My table is a little bigger at 8ft by 5ft. But still. So I’ll opt for something that’s (very roughly) about 80 per cent of what it’s ‘true’ scale would be on the table.
I think I’ll just chop it out of foam and go from there. I have some odds and ends already and freehanded a design on them for size. They’re too fragmented though, so I’ll get a couple of extra blue insulation foam sheets.
The bottom blue sheet here is 2ft by 2ft. So, yes, it’s a bigger beast on a table than you may first imagine.
Another consideration is making sure artillery pieces and crew can fit in the emplacements. Plus I’ll use coffee stirrers to board the top out, maybe create a little shelter and gun powder store. Plus a little drawbridge access on one side.
I think once the plan is right, it could be a reasonably straightforward but decent-looking build. I have a completely spare Sunday in February so I’ll try and whack it out in one go then.
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I've been thinking about doing this too,although I think it will probably be modular,I've been gathering bits of reference and "ubique's" blog has a nice scratch built sconce and step by step, there is also an inexpensive vac formed plastic as an option but hacking away at poly and sticking stirrers and tile adhesive sounds the way to go to me!
Best Iain
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I went much the same way with a 30mm thick expanded poly base with 2 polygonal bastions to model the front half of a sconce. I mounted storming poles into the sides. On top of that another layer of sit-on Vee shaped 25-30mm high emplacements lined with gabions that formed the ramparts. They could also be used as field defences...
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I used a modular approach to creating a Spanish colonial presidio in 15mm - with artillery bastion (see my Mex Rev in 15mm thread)
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Paid another visit to the Queen’s sconce in Newark today and took some photos ahead of the build. Observations included surprise at just how deep and wide the depression in the middle is for gunpowder/storage. (Winston Jr approx 4ft 3ins tall inside it for scale in the pic! Had me wondering if that was also used as a shelter.
It must’ve been a nightmare drainage-wise. Any thoughts on how they might have dealt with this? Unless that hole has been dug since for some reason and is irrelevant? Seems to me to be big enough to have been part of the work at the time tho.
I also paced it out - it’s 146 of my fairly short-bothered paces diagonally from the extreme point of one corner to the other. Turn that into 0.5cm per pace approx for a 28mm figure and you have a whopping 73cm-wide model.
I’ll scale it down to 60cm I reckon. I can live with that on a 152cm wide table.
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Great pictures, Chris 👍.
I imagine the ‘hole’ would be to protect powder reserves - not sure.
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The National Heritage listing is most informative
https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1016150?section=official-listing
The 'powder magazine' is likely to be a later feature. "A T- shaped depression about 9m in width and 2m in depth within the ramparts in the south west corner of the sconce is not thought to represent an original feature and is indicative of subsequent digging for gravel."
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The National Heritage listing is most informative
https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1016150?section=official-listing
The 'powder magazine' is likely to be a later feature. "A T- shaped depression about 9m in width and 2m in depth within the ramparts in the south west corner of the sconce is not thought to represent an original feature and is indicative of subsequent digging for gravel."
Ah thanks - thought it was a bit sus! Cheers for that
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Black powder is hygroscopic and usually kept in leather lined barrels. So for a temp fortification all you'd need is a weatherproof dry store but not one that is too enclosed to add 'oompf' to any accidental explosion. It is no accident that powder mills of the period look like wooden shacks with weak shuttered walls but decent roofs. An isolated surface shed is probably all it had. They may have thought to add a blast bank around it to shelter it somewhat if there was enough internal space.
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Made a good start and although I didn’t 100 pc complete today all that’s left to do is paint the wood, add some texture, gravel, grass and dry brush.
I settled on two layers of foam rather than three as when stacked up three just looked so tall compared with everything else on your typical 28mm table given the height of most 28mm terrain (trees/buildings) is not to scale anyway. So it would just have looked stupidly vast.
Used a triangular homemade template to get the corners right and make sure there’s enough space inside for guns and men. Used glue and cocktail sticks to attached the two layers together once the shapes were cut out. Filled the gap with filler. Painted in brown house paint then gave it a dark brown spray as well for mixture.
Then used coffee stirrers and matches for internal boarding. Then cocktail sticks all round the outside for stakes. Some pics of progress here. Next I’ll paint all the wood, add some Vallejo mud effect for texture on most of the edges, add mud and gravel in the middle, then some patches of grass and tufts, dry brush, done. Will make a shelter and bridge later.
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Thats looking pretty imposing already!
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Looks good :)
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Day two and the extra texture is on and drying, and all wood painted. Bry brushing and weathering/muck and grass next
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Really impressive. It's coming along great.
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Calling it done! Will add a bridge and a shelter another time, but content to draw to a close for now, as I need to get back to figures. Very happy with how it turned out. Biggest issue some gaps at the bottom from warping but largely dealt with. Last touch was a base, grass and a last dry brush of the earth.
Biggest cost was the foam, grand total just over £20 I think.
Thank you to everyone for the kind comments, photos, tips and links.
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Looking good - you’ve managed to create a lot more internal space than I was expecting.
I’m vaguely planning to make one in 10mm - I wonder if I need to go a bit bigger than the 6” size I was thinking - which was mainly to fit in the grid size of FKaP.
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Great looking sconce, Chris 👍