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Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Topic started by: Hobgoblin on January 11, 2022, 09:05:13 PM
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Just thinking out loud here, but a project I'm toying with for this year is putting together some Middle-earth armies that don't conform to the various visual conventions that have sprung up over the years - those drawn on the works of Angus McBride, Alan Lee, John Howe and Peter Jackson, among others.
Essentially, I much prefer new takes on Tolkien than the same old stuff. When I heard that the forthcoming Amazon series would be based on the New Line films, my heart sank somewhat. I'm no great fan of the films, and while they have some great designs, I kind of lament the fact that they've become a received version of Middle Earth (rather than just one take on the subject). If Amazon had been doing a brand-new adaptation of LotR, I'd have been much more interested. I suppose it's the same mild disapproval I feel when I see a film-branded edition of a classic novel.
Anyway, I really like some of the older and wilder Middle-earth illustrations out there - like those of Tove Janssen, Ingahild Grathmer, Antonio Quadros and various Russian illustrators - this kind of thing:
(https://wharferj.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/tovejansson_hobbit8.jpg)
(https://wharferj.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/jansson_smaug3.jpg)
(https://images2.minutemediacdn.com/image/upload/c_fit,f_auto,fl_lossy,q_auto,w_728/v1555917358/shape/mentalfloss/margrethe2.gif?itok=HHcQNN77)
(https://coilhouse.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/17.jpg)
(https://coilhouse.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/47.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-roBKwQ5akFE/VK6SGS1L4XI/AAAAAAAAMSg/YjhawrbBOVU/s800/hobbit-antonio-quadros-01.png)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-nQgMQJ5Ak-c/VK6SG37BhgI/AAAAAAAAMQk/unZx98r3DIY/s800/hobbit-antonio-quadros-05.png)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EVK9-jRU8AA0iDm.jpg)
(http://cdn3.vox-cdn.com/assets/4578193/tumblr_n5kuc59pR71qd2mzdo4_1280.jpg)
So, as a kind of challenge for the year, I'm thinking about assembling a brace of forces (probably for HotT and in 28mm) that would allow me to fight either the Battle of the Pelennor Fields or, less ambitiously, the Battle of the Five Armies.
These are the three "Dogme rules" that I plan to apply to this project:
1. Everything must fit the descriptions in the source work (either The Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit).
2. What's outwith the particular source work doesn't matter. So, for example, the orcs at the Battle of the Five Armies wouldn't have to be smaller than humans because nothing in The Hobbit indicates that. But it's a different matter at the Pelennor because LotR's text makes the size difference clear. In essence, the project is an illustration of the book in question, not of Tolkien's wider 'universe'.
3. Where possible, 'received' visual conventions are to be disregarded. Gandalf must have a beard, but he needn't have a moustache; the Rohirrim must wear mail but they needn't follow the Anglo-Saxon/Norman template. If trolls are shown with the bearlike snouts of those Russian illustrations, so much the better!
The plan is to add a HotT element every now and then, painting them up at my leisure. A couple of bases a month should give me two playable armies. And I could doubtless use those elements with our 1/72 HotT stuff along the way.
The dilemma is whether to take the easy route (the Five Armies) or the more ambitious path (the Pelennor).
For the Five Armies, I reckon I could get away with the standard 24AP: baddies - two warbands (Bolg and bodyguard); two flyers (bats); four beasts (wargs and warg-riders); and eight hordes (Orcs); goodies - one magician (Gandalf); two shooters (Elves); two blades (dwarves); two spears or warbands (Men); one dragon (Eagles) and one god (Beorn).
For the Pelennor, I don't think the 24AP works, so 36AP sides would be the minimum - the baddies alone need Uruks (hordes), Mumakil (behemoths), the Witch King (aerial hero), trolls (warbands), Haradrim cavalry (riders or possibly knights or both), Haradrim foot (spears or warbands) and Easterlings and Variags (blades or warbands).
Decisions, decisions ...
Anyway, I'm going to be thinking a bit about which miniatures would fit into an unconventional Middle-earth. Any off-the-wall suggestions much appreciated!
(While having a rummage in the leadpile at lunchtime, I came across some 15mm Tin Soldier orcs and realised that they would be great in a Middle-earth army alongside and in opposition to some of the charming and 'naive' TS historicals. But that's another story ....)
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:o :o
I quite like the "old" stuff, but these illustrations are superb too. :-* Thanks for posting.
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I really like this idea. I think you have a better grasp than almost anyone of what is in the texts of LotR and the Hobbit and what comes from elsewhere — either closely related sources the Silmarillion or Tolkien's letters, or derived stuff like the films or MERP game art. It's been a while since I've read any Tolkien so I can't think of specific passages that are open to unusual interpretations or suggest unexpected miniature choices.
Maybe this project is a good fit for your peg people? It would let you get wild with the designs and match the feel of the illustrations. The trick might be representing things like cavalry and eagles.
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You're crazy, but great idea> I will look forward to seeing how this goes.
But that troll looks like someone I have seen before.........
(https://i.ibb.co/qW36pBJ/russian-troll.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/nCRV0DN/snowman.jpg)
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Crazy idea, BUT hear me out.
Late Romans for Rohan.
Iirc Tolkien only really mentions them wearing Scale/Chainmail. Well Late Romans have Chainmail in spades! They've got horsemen, they've got shields and afaik they've got beards at that point because they're full of germanic types.
Alternatively there's Ostrogoths
*Pictured, Rohirrem warriors charging at the Pellenor*
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Maybe this project is a good fit for your peg people? It would let you get wild with the designs and match the feel of the illustrations. The trick might be representing things like cavalry and eagles.
Yes, they fit well onto HotT bases, and my kids now have an abundance of Posca pens, which would make painting them a lot faster. As you say, though, it's cavalry that are the tricky bit. But it's a very good idea - thanks!
But that troll looks like someone I have seen before.........
I'm pretty sure that that's Gollum! ;)
Crazy idea, BUT hear me out.
Late Romans for Rohan.
Iirc Tolkien only really mentions them wearing Scale/Chainmail. Well Late Romans have Chainmail in spades! They've got horsemen, they've got shields and afaik they've got beards at that point because they're full of germanic types.
Alternatively there's Ostrogoths
*Pictured, Rohirrem warriors charging at the Pellenor*
That's a great idea! The distinctive Roman helmets (in contrast to the conventional conical ones) would deliver exactly that "correct but unexpected" look.
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Great idea - I am really looking forward to seeing what you come up with.
Those pictures are fantastic - they are far more atmospheric than the more modern works. But, both are good in their own ways and have their places.
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Great idea - I am really looking forward to seeing what you come up with.
I second this!
(http://cdn3.vox-cdn.com/assets/4578193/tumblr_n5kuc59pR71qd2mzdo4_1280.jpg)
I really love this take on the Witchking! I'll see if I can help think of suitable miniatures for that character (underwhile nudging you towards the Pelenor rather than the battle of the five armies ;) )
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I'm no great fan of the films, and while they have some great designs, I kind of lament the fact that they've become a received version of Middle Earth (rather than just one take on the subject). If Amazon had been doing a brand-new adaptation of LotR, I'd have been much more interested. I suppose it's the same mild disapproval I feel when I see a film-branded edition of a classic novel.
Apart from the fact that I do enjoy the films for what they are, I totally agree with these sentiments (particularly the part in bold). That said, I must admit, neither am I fond of those black and white illustrations.
Myself, I have quite a liking for the Brothers Hildebrandt LOTR artwork. I wish Peter Jackson had used those as the basis for the film design!
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Apart from the fact that I do enjoy the films for what they are, I totally agree with these sentiments (particularly the part in bold).
Iirc one of the Barry Trotter books (a rather adult satire on the Potter franchise) makes this a major point, the singular visual control of a franchise. Like I can barely NOT imagine Aragorn as Viggo unlike the Bakshi Native American looking version.
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The Hildebrands seem to be the ur-source of D&D's pig-faced orcs.
My favourite Tolkien illustrations are those by Ian Miller and John Blanche in the Tolkien Bestiary. But more than anything, I like seeing fresh takes on the books - just as I'd love to seem some fresh film versions. I suppose we will, at some point.
I think it's got to be the Pelennor for this project; the Battle of the Five Armies is sort of "tennis with the net down" (Auden's phrase to describe unrhymed and unmetred poetry) because the descriptions are so scant. The Pelennor poses much more interesting challenges because we do get a lot of descriptions in LotR, though they're often scattered far and wide.
(The idea of 15mm Tin Soldier armies is growing on me , but that could be a separate side project - I'm imagining a quite primitive, bright style for those figures. I need to renew my 15mm HotT forces anyway, so I might as well do that too. I'll put together a few bases from the figures I've got and see how I get on.)
I really like jetengine's suggestion for the Rohirrim. For the orcs, I've got a couple of ideas, heavily reliant on kitbashing. I was painting up a few stray EM4 orcs, and I noticed that they've got rather good proportions for Tolkien's Uruks - squat and broad and well below human height. So a fresh bag of those would give some conversion fodder for weapon and head swaps/remodelling. And then there are the new Mantic goblins, of which I have many. Again, I'd probably change the heads (though for what?) and many of the weapons, but they're roughly the same stature as the EM4 plastics, so should provide a good basis.
It might be time to sculpt and press-mould some suitably horrid goblin faces!
One strong argument for doing the Pelennor is that the variety provides plenty of scope to avoid boredom - especially in a Hordes of the Things format in which a whole troop type might be represented by just a couple of bases. So the Easterlings, for example, might be just six figures in total.
Obviously, the orcs are the exception - I imagine I'll need six to ten horde bases of Uruks to provide the bulk of the army. So that's 30-50 figures. But I like converting and painting orcs, so that's not an obstacle. And 28mm orc hordes will work as double blades or 'brutes' for our 1/72 games; we sometimes rope in old 28mm elements as ogres and the like when staging really big 1/72 games.
I find myself wondering whether Grond might work as - somehow - a sneaker element in HotT (to assail the defender's stronghold). But that might be a stretch! With its mumaks and trolls, it might work as a behemoth, though.
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This is an excellent idea. I wholly agree about the unfortunate influence on (I almost said contamination of) the Tolkien visual aesthetic by the Jackson films.
My first off-the-wall suggestion: how about using Polish winged hussars for the swan knights of Dol Amroth?
For HotT you'd probably only need two or three. Foundry have some (eg https://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/16th-17th-century-renaissance-polish/products/pol008-winged-hussars-2-wings) as do TAG (https://theassaultgroup.co.uk/product/polish-hussars-lancer-levelled/), though the TAG pictures don't have the wings attached. You'd need to remove pistol holsters from the TAG saddles, I suppose.
Anyway, just a thought.
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My first off-the-wall suggestion: how about using Polish winged hussars for the swan knights of Dol Amroth?
Ooh! That's an excellent idea! And very easy to get the 'swan knight' idea across. Thanks! I'll almost certainly go with that, even if 'shining vambraces' have to be added!
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Another bizzare thought, but Ghouls for Orcs? I'm thinking the whole "debased humanoid" thing.Obviously given weapons/armour thiugh. Not just naked monsters running around.
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My first off-the-wall suggestion: how about using Polish winged hussars for the swan knights of Dol Amroth?
Pretty good idea! I was thinking they'd be well represented by Norman knights, whose appearance would seem like a good fit with the general descriptions of armour and weaponry throughout the books.
Gondorians as Byzantines, with Minas Tirith loosely modelled on Constantinople, would also be in keeping.
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Rohan as late Roman empire and Gondor as Byzantine is an interesting idea! Makes me think that it's quite obvious the Harad is Cathage..
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Wouldn't Rohan work better if modeled as dark age Anglo Saxons? Gondor has always been fantasy version of Rome/Eastern Rome (Though Tolkien in his letters considered Gondor to be Italy, though its' cities Byzantine in look), but Rohirrim have always been even more obviously modeled after the Anglo-Saxons.
If wanting to avoid those models, however, Goths might be a good take as well.
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In the Hobbit, when the group is traveling through Mirkwood, Tolkien makes vivid descriptions of the 'glowing eyes' seen at night and around them. He does mention they are possibly insect like but that might be something that is worth extrapolating on.
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In the Hobbit, when the group is traveling through Mirkwood, Tolkien makes vivid descriptions of the 'glowing eyes' seen at night and around them. He does mention they are possibly insect like but that might be something that is worth extrapolating on.
Could that not be the Giant Spiders?
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But doesn't looking at all the standard dark age historical stereotypes lose the peculiarity of the images you show. Yes that is the basis that Tolkien stated for his background, but that is not where the majority of those images are.
In the coloured image you have a very high Medieval style and the one of the clashing warriors has horn helmet Vikings riding wolves on one side against full plate armour "Excalibur Arthurian" style infantry on the other.
The first image (which I think is great) has bipedal wolves and almost Neanderthal looking goblins and "Noggin the Nog" style Dwarves up trees.
Your stated 3 criteria are not matched by the illustrations you chose. Are you actually looking for "unconventional" or just slightly different from the norm?
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This is going to be an interesting project to follow, I am intrigued to see where you take it.
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Another illustrator to look up would be Cor Blok, who really went all-in on a medieval manuscript style which works really well.
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Your stated 3 criteria are not matched by the illustrations you chose. Are you actually looking for "unconventional" or just slightly different from the norm?
I'm not sure I quite follow you here. I mean, a burly, bearded Gollum, bearded or shaggy Orcs, and wolf/bear-like trolls are all quite different from the conventions of most contemporary Tolkien illustrators, surely? As is a six-legged Smaug!
And Severian's suggestion of winged hussars for the swan knights is a great example of how one could deviate a long way from the Dark Ages. That's exactly what I'd like to do - have something that fits the textual prescription (rule 1) but is far removed from the conventions of the past couple of decades at least (rule 3).
I mean, an Orc army in which the figures resembled those hirsute wolfriders with their horned helmets would at least be a bit different from the norm, no?
I'm also thinking about how paint schemes could be used to shift things away from the ordinary. For example, there's a risk that even heavily kit-bashed Orcs might still end up looking fairly conventional (not least because there's a fair bit of rule-2 description of the Orcs). But striking uniform and armour schemes (e.g. bright red helmets for officers) might offset that a bit.
Another illustrator to look up would be Cor Blok, who really went all-in on a medieval manuscript style which works really well.
Yes! His snouted Gollum is a great example!
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Actually, the New Line movies provide a good example of the sort of thing I'm looking for in the way they treat the mumakil. Using a prehistoric elephant-type beast is a great innovation; if the films hadn't done that already, it would be a perfect fit with my "Dogme rules".
Conversely, the hyaenadon wargs don't really fit because the wargs are explicitly described as wolves (and the word warg means "wolf").
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Interesting ideas.
I’m waiting for the Victrix Norman cavalry to come out, and will be using those for Gondor. A mainly mail based world is what Tolkien describes in The Lord of The Rings. All the fanciful baroque / gothic plate armour beloved of generations of Tolkien illustrators and interpreters is a vast accretion of barnacles on the hull of Tolkien’s plain and simple vessel :D
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All the fanciful baroque / gothic plate armour beloved of generations of Tolkien illustrators and interpreters is a vast accretion of barnacles on the hull of Tolkien’s plain and simple vessel :D
Nicely put!
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A mainly mail based world is what Tolkien describes in The Lord of The Rings. All the fanciful baroque / gothic plate armour beloved of generations of Tolkien illustrators and interpreters is a vast accretion of barnacles on the hull of Tolkien’s plain and simple vessel :D
Yes, I think you're dead right.
With this project, I'm not aiming for what Tolkien had in mind (pretty much straight-up Bayeux Tapestry by his own account) so much as what can be squeezed between his lines.
So, while I think your brilliant kitbashed Orcs are pretty much bang on (maybe with a slight quibble about height! ;)), I'm going to try to go for something a bit weirder that will certainly be less like what Tolkien intended but could be quite fun in any case.
Here are a couple of examples of a potential Uruk kitbash - a Mantic goblin with an Oathmark dwarf head and/or Frostgrave gnoll arms (to lean into that "long arms hanging almost to the ground" thing. I might add a spiky nasal piece to the helmet to give it a more goblinish look. I'm also thinking about using some GW beastman heads without the horns (not an original idea but one worth stealing).
As I don't need dwarves for the Pelennor (aside, maybe, from Gimli with the Rangers off the Corsair ships), I think dwarf bits can be a fertile source of Orc parts. For various reasons that I won't get into now, I have an inkling that Tolkien's Uruks were more dwarf-like than most illustrators tend to suggest.
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Lovely illustrations. I've been of the opinion that orcs and goblins could have beards.
Probably wrote it before in other similar discussions:
Beards in LotR are described when noteworthy, like dwarfs, or when it adds to the character. It doesn't mean that unless described people or creatures have no beard.
Just like the old sagas; most men probably had beards. There was no reason to add it to the description of a person.
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Tove Jansson illustrated LOTR?! That, I never knew. Cool - bet the first illustration in the list is hers.
Whose is the second one? The first two and the last, colour medieval style one are my favourites.
EDIT the second one is hers too! Cooler still!
LATER EDIT she only illustrated The Hobbit - and the license is for Swedish and Finnish editions only. Still, I liked them so much I ordered a Finnish language Hobbiti :D
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There is a huge difference in tone between The Hobbit and LOTR. The first 2 illustrations are wonderful and suit The Hobbit beautifully. I don’t think that style would suit LOTR though. Again I agree the high medieval style illustration is great.
What about Gondor as Byzantium, Easterlings as Turks, Harad are Barbary pirates, Rohan as crusaders, and Orcs are Mongols with wolves instead of ponies.
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Harad are Barbary pirates
Corsairs of Umbar are more akin to Barbary Pirates.
I'd have Harad as Turks and Easterlings as further east, like Afghans or Chinese.
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Corsairs of Umbar are more akin to Barbary Pirates.
I'd have Harad as Turks and Easterlings as further east, like Afghans or Chinese.
Good call. Chinese style figures would make cool Easterlings. Pagan Rus also look good for something.
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I think that the interesting thing about the art in Hobgoblin's first post is that the artists all seem to be from outside the Anglosphere. They were likely working from Tolkien's texts 'fresh' and without some/all of the cultural assumptions that English readers in the mid-20th century would have brought to the books, and as a result they produced some very unique interpretations of the material. It would be interesting to know whether the illustrators were working from the original English or translations.
Trying to bring fresh eyes to Tolkien is why I like Hobgoblin's rule 2 of using just the text of LotR or the Hobbit alone as a basis for the project, as it opens the door for some creative and fun stuff. Sure it arguably disregards what Tolkien 'meant' in some letter to his publisher or draft of the Silmarillion, but who cares? It's a New Criticism approach to building HotT armies.
I have to admit I'm not a fan of the 1:1 mapping of historical cultures onto Middle Earth nations. It seems kinds of limiting, and it more often than not leads to a "good guys: white, bad guys: non-white" formulation. Also, it usually seems like a reaction to the Peter Jackson films and a desire for a more 'accurate' or 'authentic' depiction of Middle Earth (which is fair!) but often is no more reflective of what Tolkien wrote, even if using historical figures gives it a veneer of being more realistic somehow.
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I have to admit I'm not a fan of the 1:1 mapping of historical cultures onto Middle Earth nations. It seems kinds of limiting, and it more often than not leads to a "good guys: white, bad guys: non-white" formulation. Also, it usually seems like a reaction to the Peter Jackson films and a desire for a more 'accurate' or 'authentic' depiction of Middle Earth (which is fair!) but often is no more reflective of what Tolkien wrote, even if using historical figures gives it a veneer of being more realistic somehow.
I think it's inescapable though - while certain large aspects of Tolkien world building are wonderfully unique, there are also vast overarching themes that are pulled straight out of the histories he was using as a model. And while nothing is exactly 1:1, considering that Tolkien by his own admission didn't have a clear mental image of arms, armor or material culture, the best that can be done to get an 'accurate' or 'realistic' look is to look at the cultures and civilizations he was modeling from.
That's not to say there need to be transverse crested Gondorian Centurions running about (Though that is quite an image, isn't it?) only that you might as well start from the same place he started from, and start extrapolating from there.
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Some very unique interpretations you dug out Hobgoblin. I kinda like them for being so much different from Peter Jackson‘s movies. Will be very interested to see where this is going.
When you go for the Polish Hussars as Swan Knights, it might be worth going at least that far from the expectations with your other armies.
For instance Landsknechts kitbashes with axes for Easterlings (long beards, heavy axes).
Maybe look for Forest Indian plastic kits (don‘t know if they exist) for Elves…just stay away from the Dark Ages approach everyone is using.
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Trying to bring fresh eyes to Tolkien is why I like Hobgoblin's rule 2 of using just the text of LotR or the Hobbit alone as a basis for the project, as it opens the door for some creative and fun stuff. Sure it arguably disregards what Tolkien 'meant' in some letter to his publisher or draft of the Silmarillion, but who cares? It's a New Criticism approach to building HotT armies.
I have to admit I'm not a fan of the 1:1 mapping of historical cultures onto Middle Earth nations. It seems kinds of limiting, and it more often than not leads to a "good guys: white, bad guys: non-white" formulation. Also, it usually seems like a reaction to the Peter Jackson films and a desire for a more 'accurate' or 'authentic' depiction of Middle Earth (which is fair!) but often is no more reflective of what Tolkien wrote, even if using historical figures gives it a veneer of being more realistic somehow.
When you go for the Polish Hussars as Swan Knights, it might be worth going at least that far from the expectations with your other armies.
For instance Landsknechts kitbashes with axes for Easterlings (long beards, heavy axes).
Maybe look for Forest Indian plastic kits (don‘t know if they exist) for Elves…just stay away from the Dark Ages approach everyone is using.
Whilst I agree that it would be nice to have an "alternative" view of the established appearances of the various kingdoms of men and the other races, I think that moving it too far away from the inspirations that Tolkein himself drew from risks the end result looking and being any old generic fantasy rather than something that is "recognisably" LotR.
To use a couple of examples of what I mean:
1) You could use Warhammer models for most of the equivalent races, and leave out anything too weird/magical/high-tech. There's nothing really to say that GW Orcs are wrong, and you can paint them whatever colours you wish. Ditto many of the other races/armies. The problem is that it will look like Warhammer, and not LotR.
2) You could use Skaven with their tails removed and the more specific iconography removed as Orcs/Goblins. They could "fit" according to the second criteria:
2. What's outwith the particular source work doesn't matter. So, for example, the orcs at the Battle of the Five Armies wouldn't have to be smaller than humans because nothing in The Hobbit indicates that. But it's a different matter at the Pelennor because LotR's text makes the size difference clear. In essence, the project is an illustration of the book in question, not of Tolkien's wider 'universe'.
But the problem is that most/all people looking at them would not think they look like Orcs/goblins at all unless you told them specifically that they are. It's a similar problem if you were to put Gnoll heads and arms onto Dwarf torsos and legs; you end up with squat, ugly, swarthy creatures, who could certainly "fit" as being Orcs according to some of the more limited descriptions, but would not really be all that recognisable as such to most people (and when I say that, I am even allowing for those who may have read the books but not seen the films).
Several of the images in the first post don't really look particularly specific (to me) as being LotR; they could be anything really.
That's not to say that they are "right" or "wrong", only that some design coherency applied to any make-believe world is common because it helps to solidify what the author is trying to present to their readers. Whilst many descriptions are less detailed than some would like, Tolkien nonetheless draws from known inspirations/imagery, and follows many conventional story-telling tropes (deliberately too, I might add) in order to convey certain imagery to his audience. Any "fresh" view or interpretation would therefore really need to keep in mind that too much subversion from those established baselines would end up with something less LotR and more generic/derivative (or Warhammer-esque I suppose).
It may be that's exactly what Hobgoblin wants from this project, but a further limitation is likely to be that as a miniatures-based endeavour he will probably need to work from existing models/kits to a greater extent. That's one reason people are suggesting historical kits for the various human races I think.
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Good call. Chinese style figures would make cool Easterlings. Pagan Rus also look good for something.
That was my first thought, actually -- Kievan Rus for Easterlings, though they're perhaps not "swarthy" enough, which would break Hobgoblin's Rule #1. Though I suppose the level of "swarthiness" is determined by the paint, rather than the miniatures themselves.
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I'm not sure I quite follow you here. I mean, a burly, bearded Gollum, bearded or shaggy Orcs, and wolf/bear-like trolls are all quite different from the conventions of most contemporary Tolkien illustrators, surely? As is a six-legged Smaug!
Agreed absolutely, they are "Unconventional" for sure.
My point is that the majority of people here who are building armies for LotR are following a "true to text" interpretation of the books. As far as LAF is concerned that is the convention. Do it like it should be not like New Line did it.
I thought (hoped) you wanted to break that convention and look at a totally different style as depicted in the pictures you posted, which are not Lord of the Rings as either Jackson, or Tolkien himself, envisaged it.
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Interesting discussion! I'll return to this later today, but just a couple of quick points ...
1) You could use Warhammer models for most of the equivalent races, and leave out anything too weird/magical/high-tech. There's nothing really to say that GW Orcs are wrong, and you can paint them whatever colours you wish. Ditto many of the other races/armies. The problem is that it will look like Warhammer, and not LotR.
GW Orcs do have a clear lineage from Tolkien (bow legs, big heads, long arms, curved swords, etc.). They're a bit big for LotR, but they'd work fine for The Hobbit. An army with Ironjawz as the bodyguard of Bolg could look really good, for example.
2) You could use Skaven with their tails removed and the more specific iconography removed as Orcs/Goblins. They could "fit" according to the second criteria:But the problem is that most/all people looking at them would not think they look like Orcs/goblins at all unless you told them specifically that they are. It's a similar problem if you were to put Gnoll heads and arms onto Dwarf torsos and legs; you end up with squat, ugly, swarthy creatures, who could certainly "fit" as being Orcs according to some of the more limited descriptions, but would not really be all that recognisable as such to most people (and when I say that, I am even allowing for those who may have read the books but not seen the films).
I reckon that any first-time reader of The Hobbit would have no objection to ratlike goblins in accompanying illustrations. One could stage the Battle of the Five Armies with D&D kobolds as the goblins (gnolls as the bodyguard of Bolg), and it could look pretty good! I'll certainly be using gnoll arms on dwarf bodies in this project. ;)
And the chap on the left here (Grishnakh? The Brothers Hildebrandt seem to have put the Eye of Sauron on their Isengarders) isn't a million miles away from a gnoll head and arms on a dwarf body. (The Hidlebrandts' stuff isn't really my cup of tea, but it was certainly popular in its day.). Actually, while the snout contradicts the textual decscription of flat faces, you could make a strong case that that Hildebrandt orc is at least as close or closer to Tolkien's descriptions of Grisnakh than Peter Jackson's Uruk-hai are to the textual descriptions of the Isengarders ...
(https://www.theonering.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/captured_by_orcs-hildebrandt.jpg)
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I thought (hoped) you wanted to break that convention and look at a totally different style as depicted in the pictures you posted, which are not Lord of the Rings as either Jackson, or Tolkien himself, envisaged it.
That's certainly the plan!
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I'll certainly be using gnoll arms on dwarf bodies in this project. ;)
Well, I was specific about the parts in my example, since I had a suspicion the suggestion would in fact appeal to you! ;) lol
As for the GW/Skaven comments... Yes, I realise that they are both passable as "Orcs", but I would question whether they would really be "LotR Orcs", or would everyone who looks at them feel differently? I mean, even disregarding PJ/Weta's vision of what Orcs are. I think either the appearance of the various races needs to be sufficiently removed from the usual that they stand on their own, to allow a new association to be made from them back to LotR, or they need to be more obviously tied to LotR in such a way that you wouldn't need to explain it to people. Anything else in between is basically either what already exists, or is a derivative generic fantasy, just like Warhammer, or Warcraft, or whatever else. Again, all IMO, of course. ;)
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Apologies for the double post, but it's just occurred to me that the Frostgrave Demons kit could potentially be a really good source of parts for this project too. Even the heads, with horns trimmed off, could be used. The digitigrade legs may be less useful than the regular legs in the kit, but the torsos, arms, heads, and weapons would all be interesting to use. :)
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Well, I was specific about the parts in my example, since I had a suspicion the suggestion would in fact appeal to you! ;) lol
Quite right! Actually, the gnoll arms on short bodies provide a book-faithful aspect that many adaptations miss: the Uruks of Mordor have long arms hanging almost to the ground (and the Isengarders have long arms too - they're mentioned at Helm's Deep).
As for the GW/Skaven comments... Yes, I realise that they are both passable as "Orcs", but I would question whether they would really be "LotR Orcs", or would everyone who looks at them feel differently? I mean, even disregarding PJ/Weta's vision of what Orcs are. I think either the appearance of the various races needs to be sufficiently removed from the usual that they stand on their own, to allow a new association to be made from them back to LotR, or they need to be more obviously tied to LotR in such a way that you wouldn't need to explain it to people. Anything else in between is basically either what already exists, or is a derivative generic fantasy, just like Warhammer, or Warcraft, or whatever else. Again, all IMO, of course. ;)
I don't think Skaven would pass muster as Orcs in LotR (using my rule 2), but they would work for The Hobbit, where all we really learn about Orcs is that they have flat feet and are ugly (and their leader has a huge head). And ditto with GW Orcs - they're too big for LotR, but good for the Five Armies.
What I mean here is that if someone like (say) my mother were to read The Hobbit again and then look at a Five Armies game using Skaven or GW Orcs as goblins, I doubt she'd be at all nonplussed. After all, animal-headed goblins are nothing new (see Rosetti's Goblin Market). And again, I don't think a reader new to the book would be disconcerted by Skaven/D&D kobolds/gnoll lookalikes in accompanying illustrations.
And yes, thanks, I've got the Frostgrave demons on the cutting mat - chiefly for the arms and heads. The horns can be 'read' as part of the helmets in some cases. For LotR, they're a bit tall and straight-legged, but there's lots of kitbashing potential there. Have you seen the examples on the Iron Mitten blog?
And, actually, for the Battle of the Five Armies, the demons could be used horns and all! What, ultimately, are goblins but minor demons? I'm almost tempted to think about doing both projects ... ;)
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An interesting take on Orcs from Peter Klúcik:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49796224162_eb61e4caac_h.jpg)
Much more here (https://monsterbrains.blogspot.com/2020/04/peter-klucik-illustrations-for.html#more)!
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I have to admit I'm not a fan of the 1:1 mapping of historical cultures onto Middle Earth nations.
I tend to agree with this - not least because Tolkien's descriptions of people don't seem to map in that way. Take the Haradrim for example: they wear lots of gold, warpaint, red robes and brazen corselets of scale mail. They use iconography (the serpent) rather than abstract designs, and they ride elephants. I might be showing my ignorance, but I don't think there's any 1:1 historical analogue.
It's the same with the axe-wielding, long-bearded Easterlings. On the "book-faithful Easterlings" thread, I suggested a Scythian look, and I might go with my idea of using Victrix Dacians with added axes for a vaguely Scythian appearance, but DivisMal's landsknecht suggestion is a great one (and I have lots of Warlord landsknecht bits lying around).
I've just had a lunchtime experiment with Mantic goblin bodies and Frostgrave demon heads; the latter fit even better than the ungor ones ...
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I think that the interesting thing about the art in Hobgoblin's first post is that the artists all seem to be from outside the Anglosphere. They were likely working from Tolkien's texts 'fresh' and without some/all of the cultural assumptions that English readers in the mid-20th century would have brought to the books, and as a result they produced some very unique interpretations of the material. It would be interesting to know whether the illustrators were working from the original English or translations.
Trying to bring fresh eyes to Tolkien is why I like Hobgoblin's rule 2 of using just the text of LotR or the Hobbit alone as a basis for the project, as it opens the door for some creative and fun stuff. Sure it arguably disregards what Tolkien 'meant' in some letter to his publisher or draft of the Silmarillion, but who cares? It's a New Criticism approach to building HotT armies.
I have to admit I'm not a fan of the 1:1 mapping of historical cultures onto Middle Earth nations. It seems kinds of limiting, and it more often than not leads to a "good guys: white, bad guys: non-white" formulation. Also, it usually seems like a reaction to the Peter Jackson films and a desire for a more 'accurate' or 'authentic' depiction of Middle Earth (which is fair!) but often is no more reflective of what Tolkien wrote, even if using historical figures gives it a veneer of being more realistic somehow.
If you don't use an existing historical or fantasy range for a number of your factions you are left kit bashing everything - and even then the bits still have to come from somewhere (I assume Hobgoblin isn't going to sculpt the entire lot himself). If you raid the historical armies for factions you save a lot of time.
Nothing to say any of the factions have to be from Europe or the Middle Ages. I think the Byzantines look pretty cool and fit Gondor pretty well (old empire crumbling into ruin, lots of chain mail, etc). No reason you couldn't dial back the clock to ancient times but personally I would avoid Rome as they are just so distinct it is hard to see them as anything else. Or turn it on its head. Make East the West and West the East so have Gondor from the Chinese (minus the crossbows?), Rohan are Mongols, Easterlings become the European crusaders - barbaric murderers who descend on friendly lands raping and pillaging. Or mix the lot. The Babylonian range from Foundry would make pretty nice Easterlings. They have chariots, war wagons, horse archers, cavalry, and infantry with big bushy beards.
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All,
Tbh, I have always taken a view that the armies of Mordor are those of Rome/Eastern Rome. The description of industry and the bring of war machines etc seems to fit better with the Roman way of war. While the "Free people" are those of the Gothic or Frankish (Migration era) tribes. I like to think of the Elves as the remaining Celtic peoples, with their close connection to nature, while Dwarves are mountain peoples (such as Thracians) who live away from "civilization".
It is an odd take I know, but for me it fits. It is not exactly as written in the books, but it is certainly more how I view the material. And I prefer it far more to the Jackson films (although I do really enjoy the films and think they are great at bringing people into the world!)
Best,
Ed
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If you don't use an existing historical or fantasy range for a number of your factions you are left kit bashing everything - and even then the bits still have to come from somewhere (I assume Hobgoblin isn't going to sculpt the entire lot himself). If you raid the historical armies for factions you save a lot of time.
That's certainly true, but kitbashing the lot isn't too onerous for HotT armies given the relatively small number of troops required (even for a 48AP game, say). For example, I might only need six Easterlings on two bases - and probably no more than 12 in total.
For the Uruks, I'm settling on Mantic goblin and Oathmark dwarf bodies plus ungor, demon and dwarf heads and a mix of goblin, gnoll and demon arms. I've got lots of those - probably enough to get through the whole project without further investment. I'm confident that the kitbashes will look quite different from most commercially available orcs but will fit well with Tolkien's descriptions. I'm going to try to be a bit unconventional with the painting, though.
I like your 'flipped' ideas - food for thought!
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Tbh, I have always taken a view that the armies of Mordor are those of Rome/Eastern Rome. The description of industry and the bring of war machines etc seems to fit better with the Roman way of war. While the "Free people" are those of the Gothic or Frankish (Migration era) tribes. I like to think of the Elves as the remaining Celtic peoples, with their close connection to nature, while Dwarves are mountain peoples (such as Thracians) who live away from "civilization".
Oddly enough, I bought some Warlord stumpy Roman legionaries a while back to convert to Isengard Uruk-hai (the short stature was a plus, and I always liked the somewhat legionary look that the Isengarders sported on the cover of White Dwarf 53:
(https://i0.wp.com/thegrognardfiles.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/img_2009.jpg?fit=1125%2C1619&ssl=1)
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Oddly enough, I bought some Warlord stumpy Roman legionaries a while back to convert to Isengard Uruk-hai (the short stature was a plus, and I always liked the somewhat legionary look that the Isengarders sported on the cover of White Dwarf 53:
Ha, interesting. While that was published before I was born, it really captures the look I have in my head for the Orks. Oddly the Isengard Orks have always held a place similar to the imitation legionaries of some of the other kings around the edges of the Roman empire. Decked out to look like the real thing, but not as good when actually fighting. There is a blog that dives into the strategic and tactical differences between the two, and highlights just how great Tolkien is as a fantasy writer. The link is here: https://acoup.blog/2020/05/01/collections-the-battle-of-helms-deep-part-i-bargaining-for-goods-at-helms-gate/ (https://acoup.blog/2020/05/01/collections-the-battle-of-helms-deep-part-i-bargaining-for-goods-at-helms-gate/)
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Aha! Thanks for posting that link! I recently heard a podcast with the author (on Econtalk, I think), discovered the LotR essays and was about to read through them when I closed down all my browser tabs because I had too many open. And I then quite forgot about them!
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Aha! Thanks for posting that link! I recently heard a podcast with the author (on Econtalk, I think), discovered the LotR essays and was about to read through them when I closed down all my browser tabs because I had too many open. And I then quite forgot about them!
No worries! I can certainly highly recommend both his Helms Deep and Pelanor Fields pieces. It is really nice to read a serious academic looking at the books in such a way. It certainly deepened my understanding of what Tolkien had written. Sadly it curtails my enjoyment of less good fantasy authors...but perhaps I always knew they were very shallow in their thinking anyway!
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Having looked in my copy of the LoTR for Easterlings you could do almost anything you wanted. There is almost no description whatsoever - I couldn't even find the reference to beards. The only description is they are wielding axes at Pelenor when they are bought up. In the Appendix an Easterling invasion is described with Wainriders and leaders fighting in chariots but this is 1000 years before the Pelenor fields. So I think you could go for absolutely anything as the basis for the Easterlings from a Germanic tribesman to a Samurai!
For Southrons again there is only a couple of descriptions - the cavalry have scimitars and have a serpent standard and red and gold feature in their dress. The infantry ambushed in Ithilien are better described as Sam sees the dead body. Scale mail would point to an ancients range being a good base for them. Perhaps a Roman with a scimitar and a head swap?
For the Gondor forces there is quite a variety amongst the defenders brought in from outlying lands - from roughly armed peasants, to hunters in green to the Swan knights in full harness.
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Having looked in my copy of the LoTR for Easterlings you could do almost anything you wanted. There is almost no description whatsoever - I couldn't even find the reference to beards. The only description is they are wielding axes at Pelenor when they are bought up.
This is the beards bit:
"... countless companies of Men of a new sort.... Not tall, but broad and grim, bearded like dwarves, wielding great axes. Out of some savage land in the wide East they come...."
The Return of the King, LoTR Book 5, Ch 4, The Siege of Gondor
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"Beards", "chariots", "axes" and "east" makes me think of Persians...
(https://www.sierratoysoldier.com/ourstore/pc/catalog/K&C_AG/AG018(L).jpg)
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It sounds like Easterlings is just a catch all term for anyone from the east. There is history between Gondor and Easterlings so this description is specifically for a new tribe they haven’t faced before. So long as you have one lot like that anything goes thereafter.
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It sounds like Easterlings is just a catch all term for anyone from the east. There is history between Gondor and Easterlings so this description is specifically for a new tribe they haven’t faced before. So long as you have one lot like that anything goes thereafter.
Yes, that's right - although they do come in "countless companies"! But I think I'm looking at just a couple of elements of stocky, bearded axemen. The Uruks will require the most elements - I reckon I have enough Mantic bodies to do seven or eight elements, and I can always add kitbashes based on Oathmark dwarves and EM4 orcs to swell the ranks: they're all of similar short and sturdy build.
Tikitang - yes, I should investigate the (Victrix?) plastic Persians along with the Dacians (which I suspect are on the tall side). It occurs to me that putting helmeted (rather than flamboyantly hatted) landsknecht heads on bodies from an ancient range might help to create an 'unplaceable' look - along with a striking and non-historical paint scheme.
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Here's the first actual kitbash for this project: an Uruk of Mordor. Frostgrave demon head, Mantic goblin body, gnoll arms, sword from a Perry sprue and kite shield from Sauron knows where.
It struck me that this guy has very similar proportions to the Uruks on the White Dwarf cover above. Something that I've long observed is that miniatures and gaming illustrations from the late 70s and early 80s paid a lot more attention to the details in the books than similar things from later on. Note the S-rune on the helmet of the lead figure: the same rune is present on the helmets of early Ral Partha 'giant goblins' and Asgard 'man-orcs'.
Anyway, my Uruks aren't going to be the most radical departures from the norm in this project, but I think this guy is both quite different from most Uruk-hai miniatures out there at the moment and faithful to the book in terms of height, long arms, crooked legs, big head and so on.
And the big shield provides plenty of room for a big old Red Eye!
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Looks interesting! Cannot wait to see him/it painted up!
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Nice! And interesting ideas I seem to remember Grenadier’s Fellowship had a distinctly renaissance look.
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Thanks, both! I've got a good few more underway. Some hard-plastic HotT bases are on their way, so I'll be looking to get at least one horde element on the painting table shortly. The plan for these is to base them before painting - much quicker, I find, and with less risk of messing up the miniatures!
I do think there's a Renaissance/early-modern/modern aspect to the Fellowship in the books. The Hobbits, of course, have their waistcoats and pipes and brass buttons, but Gandalf doesn't sound at all Dark Ages to me with his hat and - overlooked by most sculptors - silver scarf. And Bree is more like something out of Tom Jones than Beowulf. So there are good grounds, I think, for deviating a fair bit from the received medievalisms.
And in line with that, I reckon there's a bit more of the fairy tale in LotR - not just The Hobbit - than is often reflected in Middle-earth gaming. I'm thinking of the fact that Tolkien's approved illustrators included Pauline Baynes and Ingahild Grathmer, whose work has a distinct fairy-tale quality (as do Tolkien's own drawings), and of details like Gandalf's eyebrows projecting beyond the brim of his hat. And the whole Tom Bombadil episode. I think you get some of that same timeless/anachronistic atmosphere in LotR as you do in Anderson's fairy tales.
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Very much so. The shire is pretty much a Victorian rural scene being ravaged by the new industry.
A renaissance setting would be great. The main problem with going later than that are the lack of fire arms so the troops wouldn’t really work.
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I do think there's a Renaissance/early-modern/modern aspect to the Fellowship in the books. The Hobbits, of course, have their waistcoats and pipes and brass buttons, but Gandalf doesn't sound at all Dark Ages to me with his hat and - overlooked by most sculptors - silver scarf. And Bree is more like something out of Tom Jones than Beowulf. So there are good grounds, I think, for deviating a fair bit from the received medievalisms.
functionally, the farther you get from the shire, the farther back in time you go stylistically in the books.. the shire is very much a 18th century type setting (tolkien himself even admits this), just without the guns. Bree comes across as a very 15-16th century place. Rohan is very 10th and 11th century, Gondor is very much 6th-7th century Byzantine, etc. the elvish places kinda break from this but understandably given their nature and his investment in writing stuff for them.
note that this even applies to a degree in the hobbit, though it is less obvious. Laketown has a major "iron age celtic Crannog" feel to it for example, albeit much larger and grander than historical ones.
And in line with that, I reckon there's a bit more of the fairy tale in LotR - not just The Hobbit - than is often reflected in Middle-earth gaming. I'm thinking of the fact that Tolkien's approved illustrators included Pauline Baynes and Ingahild Grathmer, whose work has a distinct fairy-tale quality (as do Tolkien's own drawings), and of details like Gandalf's eyebrows projecting beyond the brim of his hat. And the whole Tom Bombadil episode. I think you get some of that same timeless/anachronistic atmosphere in LotR as you do in Anderson's fairy tales.
not surprise given that Tolkien himself had very strong opinions on the nature of "fairy stories" and such, and his legendarium was written largely from the idea of creating a corpus of fairie stories/mythology. (his On fairy stories (https://coolcalvary.files.wordpress.com/2018/10/on-fairy-stories1.pdf) is pretty much required reading for discussions of the fantasy genre)
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Yes, good points - although I'm not sure about Gondor's role. I can see the Byzantine parallel (which Tolkien makes explicit somewhere, if I remember aright), but isn't it a bit of 626 and a bit of 1453? With a technological level somewhere between the two?
Here are a few more Uruk kitbashes in progress. The chap with the mace needs greenstuff work on and around his helmet, and I'll probably cut the mace down a bit. I'll probably want at least one more on the base to make it a 'proper' horde in HotT terms.
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When I first read The Lord of the Rings as a teenager my knowledge of history was non-existent and my entire knowledge of wargaming was mid to late-90s Warhammer. Everything was interpreted through the Empire, hence it was a type of renaissance setting.
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Interesting! I remember that when my son was very small, he drew a picture of Shagrat and Gorbag. And they were green (!). The shadow of GW stretches far ...
Actually, I think lots of Tolkien's contemporary readers just assume his Orcs are green because they already associate the word Orc with the colour (and don't notice the scant references to other hues).
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Nice work on the Orcs. Looking forward to your imaginings on the other combatants.
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I remember that when my son was very small, he drew a picture of Shagrat and Gorbag. And they were green (!). The shadow of GW stretches far ...
"GW's arm has grown long indeed," said Gimli, "if they can draw orcs as green in the north to trouble us here three hundred leagues away."
"Their arm has grown long," said Gandalf.
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Precisely! ;)
Nice work on the Orcs. Looking forward to your imaginings on the other combatants.
Thanks! I'm thinking about the Haradrim at the moment. For the horsemen, I'm thinking about Goth elite cavalry for the mounts - lots of opportunity for the "brazen scale" theme to be continued in the barding, but with heavily kitbashed riders. Long hair and earrings are the big challenge here, I think!
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Say what you like about the Jackson films, they at least gave us Orcs of many colours. Grey, green, yellow, pink, black, brown iirc.
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Long hair and earrings are the big challenge here, I think!
The Victrix Viking set has a few separate hair and beard extension pieces that might be made to work - at least one has some beads which would look good painted in gold.
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Wow, love everything about this project! :-* The farther you go from existing interpretations, the better IMO. Show me something new! :D
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On the early modern theme, have you seen the planned Conquitors from WA? They look like they will have plenty of bearded heads with helms that might be suitable for a kit bash: https://wargamesatlantic.com/collections/all/products/conquistadors (https://wargamesatlantic.com/collections/all/products/conquistadors)
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Thanks, gents - lots of handy pointers! The Conquistador kit is a very good call, as are those Victrix Viking bits; I've got a few lying around.
Here are another couple of kitbashed Uruks. I'll probably give them bows on their backs or at their belts. The Uruks are probably going to be the least unconventional and the most 'by the book', but I think the very fact of going by the book on stature and proportions should make them a little distinctive. And then I hope to be a little creative with the paint schemes.
I think these two would make good bodyguards of Bolg if I ever do the Five Armies. But that would open the whole can of worms of getting smaller Orcs for the bulk of the troops. In that sense, the Pelennor is easier because you just need the Uruks.
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Did anyone mention Dunlendings yet? It's not overly unconventional, but I always saw them as Iron Age Britons or Gauls. It hits the right note for a relatively 'primitive' people burning with vengeance for being displaced by the Rohirrim.
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Did anyone mention Dunlendings yet? It's not overly unconventional, but I always saw them as Iron Age Britons or Gauls. It hits the right note for a relatively 'primitive' people burning with vengeance for being displaced by the Rohirrim.
If I get the Pelennor done, I might move onto Saruman vs Rohan after that (on the basis that I'd already have the Rohirrim!). A while back, I picked up some of the squat, undersized Warlord Roman legionaries to convert to Isengard Uruks. So then I'd need to add mail-clad, axe-armed half-orcs and Dundlendings.
For that lot, I'd probably widen the Rule 1 canon to take in 'The Battle of the Fords of the Isen', as it's got so much juicy detail (the half-orcs described above, for one thing). And it says that the Dunlendings don't have much armour (in contrast to the heavy mail of the Orcs and half-orcs). It also gives an intriguing mention of "pikemen", which makes me thing Medieval Welsh or Scots. So there's definitely a Celtic Fringe flavour - not least in the Dun- name, which recalls Dunedin, Caerfyrddin, Dungannon, etc.
Given that, it's certainly hard to look past your suggestions of Britons or Gauls. As you say, they're not hugely unconventional - but they could be 'converted by paint' to make them something a bit different.
The other thing is that the Dunlendings should look a bit like the half-orcs. So Victrix unarmored and armoured Gauls might provide a starting point for the two, respectively, with the armoured ones getting some Viking admixture for the axes along with the odd Orcish head.
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When I first read The Lord of the Rings as a teenager my knowledge of history was non-existent and my entire knowledge of wargaming was mid to late-90s Warhammer. Everything was interpreted through the Empire, hence it was a type of renaissance setting.
There's nothing wrong with that. One of the best aspects of reading is imaging your own world and how it all comes together is unique to you. One of the big downfalls of the movie trilogy being so successful everyone has these firm images in their head and lose some of the imagination needed to read the books.
The shire is less a time period and more of a real world location which still exists today although extremely rare because of modern technology. A small quiet isolated village where everyone is semi related (but not inbred) and they're all good folk being good to each other but mistrusting of outsiders. Small villages in the outback of Scotland and Wales are very similar to the shire even today and personally that's what I see the shire as more than any period in time. It's the idea of a small quiet peaceful life in a small village where you're not trying to change the world, just farm your crops and enjoy your 3rd breakfast until it's time for your send off to the great beyond. A quiet but noble life.
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the Shire having things like mantle clocks, waistcoats, and the like though means that visually many of its feature are anachronistic with the surrounding lands, which are much more medieval. this is generally the stuff that people mean when they call the shire an 18th century anachronism. yes it is an example of a rural-centric isolated community.. but is also an example of a particular geographic area and time period's version of said place.
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There's nothing wrong with that. One of the best aspects of reading is imaging your own world and how it all comes together is unique to you. One of the big downfalls of the movie trilogy being so successful everyone has these firm images in their head and lose some of the imagination needed to read the books.
Yes, I think Borges' story Pierre Menard, author of the Quixote (http://hispanlit.qwriting.qc.cuny.edu/files/2011/06/Borges-Pierre-Menard.pdf) very much applies to The Lord of the Rings.* The images that Tolkien's words conjured for a reader in 1954 will tend to be different from the images conjured in more recent decades.
One caveat, though, is that readers who aren't immersed in fantasy tropes may well envisage things in a very different way from those that are. That was my point about Skaven as Orcs when gaming The Hobbit; someone who's not a gaming or fantasy enthusiast might well see nothing odd about rat-like goblins in Middle-earth just as they would see nothing wrong with rat-like goblins in Christina Rosetti's Goblin Market.
*I have a very long unfinished blog post entitled 'Borges and the Orcs' on exactly this point; I really must finish it off!
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Interesting project and it's got some good discussion going.
I think that my images mentally from when I first encountered the Hobbit and LotR would be very different from now as it would have been in the 1970s before even the Bakshi movie, let alone the Peter Jackson ones. As it would be a little before I encountered D&D I'd love to really recapture that.
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Did anyone mention Dunlendings yet? It's not overly unconventional, but I always saw them as Iron Age Britons or Gauls. It hits the right note for a relatively 'primitive' people burning with vengeance for being displaced by the Rohirrim.
Yes, that was also my impression of them. Some Celtic rest population that had been driven into the hills.
@hobgoblin: nice work with those conversions!
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@hobgoblin: nice work with those conversions!
Thanks! Lots (and lots) more to come with those, obviously; I think I'll probably need something like a dozen Uruk horde elements.
I'm trying to put together a rough list of what should be in each army, and what they might be in HotT/DBA/D3H2 terms.
Mordor
Uruks of Mordor: hordes
Mumakil: behemoths/elephants
Easterlings: warbands (or blades - but see below for differentiation)
Variags of Khand: blades
Haradrim foot: spears (and possibly other types too)
Haradrim cavalry: knights (they charge into the charging Rohirrim, so knights or - in DBA/D3H2 - cavalry seems a better fit than riders; though they might have riders too).
Witch-king: aerial hero
Winged Nazgul: flyers
Trolls: (perhaps - they don't seem to feature in the battle other than wielding Grond) warband
Troll-men: warband - in D3H2, possibly 'fast' warband with the Easterlings as 'solid' warband.
Gondor + allies
Riders of Rohan: knights
Swan knights of Dol Amroth (and knights of Gondor): knights
Imrahil: hero
Theoden: hero
Eowyn and Merry: sneaker
Footmen of Gondor: spears and shooters/bows
Men of Lossarnach: blades
Eomer: hero
Dismounted Rohirrim: spears
Aragorn: hero
Dunedain of the Gray Company: blades or shooters
Folk of Lebennin and Lamedon: spears or auxilia or warband ("grim hillmen").
Gandalf: magician
Any obvious omissions?
I think these lists provide a fairly good set-up for a game, as the Mordor army will be heavy on hordes and behemoths while the goodies will rely more heavily on heroes. Making Eomer, Theoden and Imrahil heroes essentially gives the Gondor side much greater punch in the cavalry - so the Rohirrim will be better knights than the Haradrim even though both forces are mainly knight elements. And, of course, all those hero elements help keep the Gondor side smaller if the points are balanced - while the Uruk hordes serve to swell the numbers of the host of Mordor.
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Will you be running the battle as a straight up pitched battle or putting together a scenario to model the fairly complex sequence of events in the book? I guess you could also run some ‘what if?’ in terms of whether the orca know the Rohirrim are coming, when Aragorn and co. arrive, etc.
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Wow, what a really neat idea! I'd just seen a grip of illustrations, reimagining LOTR in ancient China that your stuff makes me think of! Even if it doesn't inspire your project, it's a cool take on an old subject:
(https://i0.wp.com/boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/FINIcrDVkAIFzYN-scaled.jpeg?fit=1&resize=620%2C4000&ssl=1)
More of her stuff can be found here: https://leiaham.com/#/new-page/
Following along, I like your orcs so far!
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Will you be running the battle as a straight up pitched battle or putting together a scenario to model the fairly complex sequence of events in the book? I guess you could also run some ‘what if?’ in terms of whether the orca know the Rohirrim are coming, when Aragorn and co. arrive, etc.
I think I'll be trying to model the events as far is is feasible; I'm thinking about a four-player (or even six-player) game with a lot of replayability. The HotT dragon and god rules provide a good basis for reinforcements, though I'd have to give some thought to how the starting forces are assigned (I wouldn't want one player having to hang on until someone rolls a six!).
More of her stuff can be found here: https://leiaham.com/#/new-page/
Those are great - thanks very much for posting them! The yuebing lembas is particularly inspired - I wonder if it has a salty egg in the middle! And that Gandalf is a perfect example of what I'm trying to go for when I can: something that's bang on as an illustration of the book but not what's come to be expected.
I've been thinking about the troll-men from Far Harad. When I was a kid, I thought that the description was just a Hobbit's-eye view of unfamiliar people. But if I had to bet now, I'd guess that Tolkien was suggesting that these were some sort of troll-human hybrid (he uses the same pattern to introduce the half-orcs, who really are part-orc), not least because he posits somewhere that newer trolls (probably the Olog-hai) might have been bred from 'primitive' human types. That makes me think of Neanderthals, Denisovans and Homo Heidelbergensis.
So I'm wondering if the Lucid Eye neanderthals might work, painted with blank white eyes (and perhaps tiger pelts). I'm not sure how big they are, but if they're reasonably hefty, they might do the trick. And if I do have real trolls on the field, I can paint them with the same white eyes to establish the link.
(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/72272d_e949911b4c3d47a8835b53d7811f7606~mv2_d_3000_3000_s_4_2.png/v1/fill/w_469,h_469,al_c,q_90,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01/72272d_e949911b4c3d47a8835b53d7811f7606~mv2_d_3000_3000_s_4_2.webp)
They'd certainly look the part as a HotT warband. Does anyone else make oversized Neanderthals? Reaper have some huge ape-men under the Neanderthal label, but that's not the look I want.
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The Lucid Eye neanderthals are certainly hefty - here's a quick comparison shot with a Foundry bronze age guy and an Oathmark goblin. The rank and file guy (to the right of the goblin) is smaller than the boss to the left.
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/54/12373-190122194435.jpeg)
I have some neanderthal-ish guys from DeeZee, which are fun sculpts but notably slighter.
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The Lucid Eye neanderthals are certainly hefty - here's a quick comparison shot with a Foundry bronze age guy and an Oathmark goblin. The rank and file guy (to the right of the goblin) is smaller than the boss to the left.
Aha! Thanks very much! That's really useful; it confirms that they're perfect for this. It doesn't much matter whether I can get two or three on a base, and there's bit of depth to play with. I had worried that they might be (pre)historically accurate Neanderthals and a bit on the short side. But these will make great troll-men - possibly with tiger or leopard hides to point to their origins in southern lands (not that tiger skins necessarily signal that, of course ...).
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Actually now that Lucid Eye is mentioned some of the Book of the Elf King miniatures would be wonderful for a Rodney Matthews themed LOTR :)
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Actually now that Lucid Eye is mentioned some of the Book of the Elf King miniatures would be wonderful for a Rodney Matthews themed LOTR :)
Now there's a thought! I could see the trolls working as Saruman's half-orcs ("ferocious, mail-clad, armed with axes"; "horrible: man-high but with goblin faces").
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Exactly my thoughts :)
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You know, they're just about perfect as is - maybe a hammer or two flattened to an axe.
Hmm ... I'll resist them for now on the basis that they don't feature at the Pelennor. The Fords of the Isen and Helm's Deep are different matters, though!
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I have been tempted by Victrix, largely because their humans are relatively large for 28mm, so have a height advantage against 28mm orcs. So what about Victrix Republican Romans in chainmail as Gondor and the upcoming Victrix (with romano-british and german heads) in chainmail as Rohirrim?
Gondor:
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0782/9619/products/28mm-ancients-rome-s-legions-of-the-republic-i-2_2048x.jpg?v=1642692049)
Rohirrim:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/I0jzvjEMYlmIB9M3ojgNPCB5sKgnrqyCpUyQjU1xXxE994FFXXrZoLF-yPiI8gFEAx73y2DwaADkJzAsFgJhv9xHLwWArPBGG3bU4AM4p_1dNGzRspZzIsto3WStoZ81xEHgzZoj) (More images here https://www.victrixlimited.com/blogs/news-and-media/romano-british (https://www.victrixlimited.com/blogs/news-and-media/romano-british))
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I like the idea of Faramir as a Decurion :)
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I have been tempted by Victrix, largely because their humans are relatively large for 28mm, so have a height advantage against 28mm orcs.
That's a very good point. Tolkien puts such emphasis on the gulf between the heights of Orcs and Men that it really needs to be shown clearly. I'm confident that my kitbashed Uruks will be sufficiently stumpy to be looked down upon by most plastic 28s, but having the hefty Victrix types in place helps to accentuate that. If I do get to Isengard armies, I'm certainly going to use Victrix Vikings as the basis for the half-orcs to clearly distinguish them from the Uruk-hai (as 'Flotsam and Jetsam' and 'The Battle of the Fords of the Isen' do).
So what about Victrix Republican Romans in chainmail as Gondor and the upcoming Victrix (with romano-british and german heads) in chainmail as Rohirrim?
Great calls on both counts - thanks! I think Roman Men of Gondor would look sufficiently distinctive from most recent takes to really stand out - especially with a bit of kitbashing (particularly with weapons).
Plenty of Dunlending potential in those Romano-Britons too, of course, should I ever get to Isengard ...
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I'm really intrigued by the concepts here! Sparked by the thought of Haradrim as Carthaginians, I wonder what would happen if you leaned hard into the Classical inspiration:
- Minas Tirith as a Greek polis? (I bet the White Tree would look pretty striking on hoplon shields...)
- Rohirrim as Scythians?
- Elves and Dwarves as holdovers from an earlier era... Assyrian or Near-Eastern Dwarves, some sort of Bronze Age inspired elves?
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Great ideas! Definitely food for thought there!
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I'm really intrigued by the concepts here! Sparked by the thought of Haradrim as Carthaginians, I wonder what would happen if you leaned hard into the Classical inspiration:
- Minas Tirith as a Greek polis? (I bet the White Tree would look pretty striking on hoplon shields...)
- Rohirrim as Scythians?
- Elves and Dwarves as holdovers from an earlier era... Assyrian or Near-Eastern Dwarves, some sort of Bronze Age inspired elves?
There was a range of big hatted dwarves produced by Games Workshop with a distinct Assyrian vibe. Probably ruinously expensive to get hold of now on ebay but fun miniatures.
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What about these guys for near Eastern dwarfs: https://cpmodels.co.uk/product-category/28mm-ranges/28mm-fantasy/dwarven-empire/ (https://cpmodels.co.uk/product-category/28mm-ranges/28mm-fantasy/dwarven-empire/)
(https://cpmodels.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Dwarf-hammers-1.1.png)
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Any new kitbashing to show off Hobgoblin??
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I’ve always visualised the Haradrim as Sassanid Persians, but Carthaginians is an interesting idea
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A belated thanks for the various good ideas since I last replied!
Any new kitbashing to show off Hobgoblin??
I had kitbashed another couple - see below! The guy with the clenched fist needs a shield.
I'm now thinking, though, that I'll base these orcs up for Saga and other skirmish games. I said at the start of this thread that I was tempted to do the Pelennor in 15mm, and I think that's the route I'll take. I have various 15mm orcs lying around that will allow me to get a few bases on the go at zero cost; I've even been playing around with some sample paint schemes (simple and bold - see WIP shot below!).
There are a few reasons for the switch. I've got lots of HOTT forces in 1/72 on 60mm frontages, so building more armies with the same frontages at a different scale seems like unnecessary overlap; I've been repurposing earlier 28mm elements as individually based miniatures since I started using 1/72. But some 15mm forces would come in very handy - for 'away' games with friends and for HOTT competitions, which I've occasionally entered and always enjoyed.
I was also finding it hard to fit the 28mm figures onto the bases. I could usually only get four orcs onto a regulation horde base, which detracted from the effect, and the cavalry were similarly cramped.
A final factor was that I decided we needed a lot more cavalry for our Saga games, so I assembled all the Goth and Arab cavalry I'd got for kitbashing in their original forms.
I am, however, going to keep things as unconventional as I can. The Swan Knights will certainly be winged hussars, and I'll look for some similar historical exotica for other human troop types. Meanwhile, the kitbashing opportunities will come from the bigger beasties - trolls, for example. Tolkien's trolls were about 12 feet tall, so 28mm figures should do the job nicely. I'm starting to think beyond the Pelennor, too, as I've just based up a Frostgrave demon as a balrog (I need to find or manufacture a whip!).
One thing I'm considering is using the old square basing for the hordes - so that the massed Uruks look suitably teeming. The square bases are still 'legit' in the current edition, and the figures would then be appropriately based for Mayhem.
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I just tested out basing for this new 15mm direction. As I want to use a lot of the long, low Tin Soldier orcs (like those above) as the mainstay of my Uruks, old-fashioned square horde bases make a lot of sense. That also allows me to include some doubled warbands (40 x 20mm) among the Orcish ranks without breaking the formation.
While I'll argue fiercely to anyone who'll listen that Uruks are clearly the mainstays of the armies of Mordor and Isengard by the time of the War of the Ring, there are also indications that there were especially large Orcs among the Uruk ranks - witness Helm's Deep, where the "hugest Orcs" are mustered before the gate - the superlative telling us that these were the biggest of the big.
So including a few warband units as "the hugest" Uruks seems fair. And those can also serve as the bodyguard of Bolg if I ever do the Five Armies (where the majority of the Orcs are the smaller kinds). And of course the doubled warbands will work fine as squares for Mayhem. I've just based up a sample warband unit (old Asgard or TTG giant goblins) to kick this project off in earnest.
This is going to be a slow burner; I'm in no rush to get the project finished, though a HOTT tournament in November (if it's back on) might be a natural target. I just plan to go one element at a time, hoovering up 15s from the leadpile as I go. I'm not planning on buying anything for this until I've got at least 24AP painted, at which point it might be time for some opposition!
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I just tested out basing for this new 15mm direction. As I want to use a lot of the long, low Tin Soldier orcs (like those above) as the mainstay of my Uruks, old-fashioned square horde bases make a lot of sense. That also allows me to include some doubled warbands (40 x 20mm) among the Orcish ranks without breaking the formation.
While I'll argue fiercely to anyone who'll listen that Uruks are clearly the mainstays of the armies of Mordor and Isengard by the time of the War of the Ring, there are also indications that there were especially large Orcs among the Uruk ranks - witness Helm's Deep, where the "hugest Orcs" are mustered before the gate - the superlative telling us that these were the biggest of the big.
So including a few warband units as "the hugest" Uruks seems fair. And those can also serve as the bodyguard of Bolg if I ever do the Five Armies (where the majority of the Orcs are the smaller kinds). And of course the doubled warbands will work fine as squares for Mayhem. I've just based up a sample warband unit (old Asgard or TTG giant goblins) to kick this project off in earnest.
This is going to be a slow burner; I'm in no rush to get the project finished, though a HOTT tournament in November (if it's back on) might be a natural target. I just plan to go one element at a time, hoovering up 15s from the leadpile as I go. I'm not planning on buying anything for this until I've got at least 24AP painted, at which point it might be time for some opposition!
Really very excited about this project. Khurasan has a nice not-LotR series that offers decent Nazgul and stuff. I like your idea with the bright orangish spear shafts. The armor is black, right? And the skin tone is the GW shade? That looks very good indeed and suitably quick for painting a huge army.
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Really very excited about this project. Khurasan has a nice not-LotR series that offers decent Nazgul and stuff. I like your idea with the bright orangish spear shafts. The armor is black, right? And the skin tone is the GW shade? That looks very good indeed and suitably quick for painting a huge army.
Cheers!
Yes, the bright spear shafts are to give the whole thing a slightly stylised, 'illustration' look - not Middle-earth as a film-maker might portray it, but more as it might be shown in a Pauline Baynes or Ian Miller illustration. The armour is natural steel washed in Agrax.
As for the skin: I'm trying to remember how I did these (it was a while ago - when I first posted this thread)! It's based on a scheme I've used for 28mm goblins, which was mid-sea grey washed with sepia, then highlighted in grey, buff and pale flesh. But I can't remember now whether I used the base and wash or just picked a brown colour (flat earth, maybe?) and highlighted from there. It was very quick, in any case, and I'm sure I'll be able to reconstruct it. The idea is for it to be sallow (as per the book, hence the buff), subterranean-looking (the grey base) and livid (through the pinkish highlights and so that it will 'pop' a bit on the table). After giving them another look under a bright lamp, I think I did switch to starting with flat earth rather than bothering with the sepia wash. I'll give that a go on the next one!
The clothing isn't painted yet, but is going to be universally black.
I have an old 15mm Nazgul on winged beast - Asgard, I think. It's quite nice, so I'll probably use that for the Witch-king.
For Olog-hai trolls, I reckon these 28mm Northstar Fomorians will probably be the best option; I think the shields are separate, so can be replaced with smaller bucklers, and some of the other weapons could be remodelled as hammers. But I'm going to stick to my vows and not buy any until I've got 24AP painted!
(https://www.northstarfigures.com/images/4/img5774.jpg)
Easterlings, Variags and Haradrim will be the next step once I've exhausted my supply of 15mm Orcs.
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Cheers!
Yes, the bright spear shafts are to give the whole thing a slightly stylised, 'illustration' look - not Middle-earth as a film-maker might portray it, but more as it might be shown in a Pauline Baynes or Ian Miller illustration. The armour is natural steel washed in Agrax.
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The clothing isn't painted yet, but is going to be universally black.
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For Olog-hai trolls, I reckon these 28mm Northstar Fomorians will probably be the best option; I think the shields are separate, so can be replaced with smaller bucklers, and some of the other weapons could be remodelled as hammers.
Thanks, Hobgoblin. I shall try that when I return to my own 15s some days.
The Olog-hai is an interesting option. For The Silver Bayonet I always thought those models looked too brutish, but you’re right, they make very good 15mm Ologs!
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The Olog-hai is an interesting option. For The Silver Bayonet I always thought those models looked too brutish, but you’re right, they make very good 15mm Ologs!
The key thing for the Ologs is that they can't be wearing too much:
[There] came striding up, roaring like beasts, a great company of hill-trolls out of Gorgoroth. Taller and broader than Men they were, and they were clad only in close-fitting mesh of horny scales, or maybe that was their hideous hide; but they bore round bucklers huge and black and wielded heavy hammers in their knotted hands.
I was wondering about some hammer-wielding Prince August orcs (I think I have three or four different types with hammers), but most of them are a bit overdressed to be trolls!