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Miniatures Adventure => Back of Beyond => Topic started by: doctorphalanx on January 15, 2022, 11:29:46 AM

Title: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: doctorphalanx on January 15, 2022, 11:29:46 AM
I want to gather (or preferably recycle) some 28mm wargame scenery suitable for the Southern (Don Cossack) theatre of operations in the Russian Civil War.

I've googled for contemporary photos without much success. Can anyone point to pictures of a wargame table which they think has a convincing look and feel?
Title: Re: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: has.been on January 15, 2022, 01:14:11 PM
Quite a few out there. here are some:-
Quote
http://www.barrageminiatures.com/
Quote
https://www.grandmanner.co.uk/January_Raw_resin_event_ends_31st_Jan_2022--post--183.html
Quote
https://www.charliefoxtrotmodels.com/
Quote
https://blotz.co.uk/

I'm sure there are lots more & there is always E-bay.
Don't forget LAFs own market place, place a wants list.
You never know what is out there on someone else's shelf.
Title: Re: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: doctorphalanx on January 15, 2022, 01:19:32 PM
Thanks for these leads.

Just after posting my query I noticed the pictures in this thread:

https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=131468.0

which are attractive and convincing. The scenery is also 'real' wargame scenery and not the fancy boards you see at shows.
Title: Re: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: Bogdanwaz on January 15, 2022, 01:46:31 PM
A few years ago, I ran a pulp game set in Ukraine during the Polish-Soviet War.  There's some pictures of the scenery on my blog here:

http://bogdanwaz.blogspot.com/2016/09/the-twelve-chairs-treasure-hunting.html
Title: Re: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: Kourtchatovium104 on January 15, 2022, 02:38:56 PM
For my RCW games, I used the 4ground russian and ukrainian cottages with scratchbuilt ones. They fit with the south Russia of the Don Cossacks, as it can be seen in photos of this time. Alas, I've never seen any manufacturer doing the typical cossack house...
Title: Re: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: doctorphalanx on January 15, 2022, 02:48:34 PM
The right sort of buildings will add flavour, but I’m not aiming to do a cityscape. Trees and streams and roads/tracks are going to be fairly universal. I like the idea of fields with modelled crops even if they don’t have any effect on gameplay.

The areas I’m less sure about are details like the types of fences and hedges. If I was doing something like ACW there would be plenty of reference points.
Title: Re: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: Pan Marek on January 15, 2022, 06:01:44 PM
Doctor-

For trees, think tall pines/firs with long trunks, like in Dr. Zhivago.  Also, stands of white birch.

If you're doing south russia, lots of it is flat.  Nearly table flat.  Rivers meander, and are bordered by marsh in alot of areas.   Villages are strung out along roads,  as there were few roads.   If you're going for a big battle,
do not overcrowd the table.  Russia, Ukraine and lots of Poland are pretty darn flat and empty farmland.

I've been pondering RCW terrain myself, and have been reading the PygmyWars site, and spending alot of time on google images. 
Title: Re: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: cuprum on January 16, 2022, 01:55:08 AM
The south of Russia (Crimea, Ukraine, Don region) is practically the absence of forests - it is an endless plain.
Here, houses are built mainly of adobe bricks and painted white. Roofs in that period were mostly made of reeds and straw.
Here is a fairly authentically designed table for the area (see game footage):

http://pb-wg.blogspot.com/search/label/Гражданска%20война%20в%20России.

Typical houses in the South of Russia:

 http://pb-wg.blogspot.com/2021/04/blog-post_15.html

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-FiuFibDUwLA/YX5AOdEryWI/AAAAAAAANaY/c2-FeDbdOIkRAPRF1lFMH8jq7uCRX4rigCLcBGAsYHQ/s2048/044.jpg)

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-FgrnJouUu4w/YJeRCThXOzI/AAAAAAAAMLw/Owr3lkD1j7g3eKy1kGMoRnL0xocihA03gCLcBGAsYHQ/s2048/20210508_121608.jpg)

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-4eKD5aZriQI/YIW8fdiBkWI/AAAAAAAAMDs/O1A7xGpWsbgC8YGzQ8El406sijCgBxvcQCLcBGAsYHQ/s2048/20210424_114748.jpg)

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-gaAbAWBS2pg/XgekuuQIpXI/AAAAAAAAI-w/JmCm5oFq_WIF-w9NlImr-sM01DeyLn7wgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/20191228_131536.jpg)
Title: Re: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: carlos marighela on January 16, 2022, 08:59:17 AM
Pegasus Hobbies do some nice pre-painted typical Ukrainian houses. They are nominally 1/72 but with some smart basing they work with 28mm.

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/pegasus-hobbies-7801-ukrainian-house-1--226712

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/pegasus-hobbies-7802-ukrainian-house-2--226713

They also make some plastic isba style wooden houses suitable for northern Russia, similar remarks re scaling.
Title: Re: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: Bravo Six on January 16, 2022, 09:08:08 AM
1st Corp does some beautiful looking buildings that may work for you:

https://1stcorps.co.uk/product-category/20th-century/20th-century-world-war-2/28mm-eastern-front-buildings/
Title: Re: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: doctorphalanx on January 17, 2022, 04:02:12 PM
I got one of these Russian houses:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RUSSIAN-HOUSE-28mm-ASSEMBLED-MDF-PAINTED-TO-COLLECTORS-STANDARD-/263662390585

...and found these plank fences:

https://www.wwscenics.com/product/wooden-fence/
Title: Re: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: Pan Marek on January 17, 2022, 05:19:50 PM
While we're on this topic, I have a question.
As I said earlier in this thread, I too am looking into the terrain of the RCW.  If one wants to know about how a typical English village appeared at any time in English history, one can obtain information ranging from children's history books to dense, dry academic/archeological tomes to websites for various historical restorations.

Not so for Russia, at least in English.  I've seen plenty of period photos of turn of the century Russian villages, but I have not seen one picture of any kind of retail establishment, or any kind of tradesman shop (like, say, a shoemaker or cooper).    Is this because they didn't exist?  Certainly peasants wore footwear, clothes and hats.  Had metal implements and needed people who could make wagon/cart wheels and other things farmers required.  How did they get them?
Title: Re: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: doctorphalanx on January 17, 2022, 06:21:34 PM
Some Russian artisans here:

https://www.rbth.com/history/332825-russian-artisans-20th-century
Title: Re: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: Mark Plant on January 17, 2022, 08:15:06 PM
Cuprum and Marek have answered the main points. One detail -- the houses in towns often had fenced gardens, but there were generally no fences, hedges etc out in the fields. You can see in Cuprum's pictures how many of the model buildings have fencing attached.

The lack of density in the terrain explains some of the fighting. If there is a village in the area, then the fighting will be for the village. If by night the attackers haven't taken the village, then they are in effect defeated, even if having inflicted greater casualties. They will have to retire to find water and food (and roofs for the night if cold). That's not to say that they have to attack the village directly -- often a flank attack would make it untenable -- but the aim was to capture the village.

Extra terrain can be added via crops. Modern wheat, barley etc are dwarf varieties, designed to be shorter to aid harvesting, and older varieties were much taller. In 1920 it was quite possible to ambush out of wheat or barley fields, and you read of many examples of troops doing so. Maize even more so, since it grows so high. Obviously this was only at certain times of year though.

============================

With regards to shops, Marek, I have noticed that also. As they get larger, villages got a church, then might add some government (Zmestvo) buildings, a school etc. But never a strip of shops. I can't recall in any memoirs about shops being present, either for supplies or having been noted as looted, so it is not just that the buildings were very similar.

The long winters give time to do other options, which filled some of the roles. So one farmer might also be a cobbler, another some carpentry. Women would weave and sew, so clothing was covered that way. There were markets in which to exchange the goods made.

More technical items were obtained from travelling salesmen or by going into town. You do read about peasants after the revolution complaining about how they can no longer get tea, sugar, nails etc that they used to get from the towns, but not about how the shops are no longer full.

Makhno took a couple of towns so his men could loot them for the items there that they needed.
Title: Re: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: Pan Marek on January 17, 2022, 08:23:04 PM
Doc-
That's a great article.  Clearly, there were artisans of some sort, of which I had no doubt, but little proof.
But did they have shops?  Or were goods peddled only on outdoor market days?   Or taken around by itinerant peddlers?   Its all about what to build for a typical village or small town.

We all know what we'd put in an Old West set up.  Did Russian villages have taverns (there's one in Fiddler on the Roof!) or barbers or general stores or blacksmiths or flour mills?   Was their economy closer to that of medieval times in Western Europe?   Its mostly a blank to me, which in and of itself bothers me, because I'm naturally curious, and in this day and age its odd that one can't find the necessary information on a topic.

I know a bit of Russian, but my computer doesn't type in Cyrillic!
Title: Re: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: Mark Plant on January 17, 2022, 11:42:23 PM
Russia banned all alcohol at the start of WWI, so by the RCW period it had not been on sale for a very long time. The Bolsheviks continued the ban. Some parts of Russia had taverns, such as Estonia, but most peasants drank homemade samogon so they had no need for expensive taverns.

Russian peasants did not need barbers. Pictures of the peasants of the time show the most appalling haircuts -- and beards -- known to man.

The larger villages had smithies, but they don't seem to be in every village, as they would be in Western Europe. What would they make? A few ploughshares, some horseshoes, some hinges. Even most of those would be bought in from the towns. The houses, for example, were made almost entirely without nails. Expensive new farm machinery was purchased by the rich landowners, but hadn't really made it to the common farmer.

Most of Russia is extremely fertile, so in times of peace peasants produced enough to be able to sell and buy in their extra needs. (It says a lot about collectivism that it managed to take one of the most fertile areas in the world and have people starve on it.) The surplus means it was a money economy by the 1910s. Education had taken hold, and a lot of the young could read. Newspapers started to be printed.

However the vast bulk of land was owned communally, and rural society had not yet split economically into farmers and trades that supported them. Every peasant farmed, and were mostly of roughly equal wealth. Ownership of individual farms had started, but not enough time had passed since emancipation for their to be a truly rich farmer, as opposed to peasant, class -- Bolshevik claims of "kulaks" owning everything notwithstanding. Exceptions were the "German" colonies and the manors of the nobility, that were often very well run and extremely profitable. Eastern Siberia was individual farms too.

My suggestion if you want a decent English look at the ins and outs of Russian society of the period, and especially peasants, is to get a copy of Orlando Figes' book "A People's Tragedy". It's 400 pages in before the Civil War even starts, and the first 100 pages before we even get to the 1905 revolution. He discusses the nature of rural life in a lot of detail.
Title: Re: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: carlos marighela on January 18, 2022, 05:58:35 AM
Russian peasants did not need barbers. Pictures of the peasants of the time show the most appalling haircuts -- and beards -- known to man. “

most peasants drank homemade samogon so they had no need to expensive taverns.”

Mark, you make it sound like an alternative universe version of Norfolk minus the Wetherspoons and populated with hipsters. :D




Title: Re: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: cuprum on January 18, 2022, 12:13:05 PM
The fence was placed in the village around the garden to prevent animals from destroying the crop.

In Russia, with the outbreak of the war, not only the sale of alcohol was banned, but also the production of moonshine.

Due to the fact that a huge number of peasants were drafted into the army, a big problem arose with the production of bread. The purchase of bread from peasants at "fixed prices" (which were much lower than market prices) was introduced under the tsar, in 1916. The peasants refused to sell bread at these prices and hid it, trying to take it to the city and sell it illegally at a commercial price. Prodrazverstka (forced sale of grain at a low state price), in fact, was introduced by the Provisional Government. But it could not actually ensure this measure in practice.

There were no shops in the village because the peasants rarely had cash. The "currency" in the village was grain.

Mills in the villages were. Or rather, they usually stood outside the settlement. Payment for work was also paid in grain.

A "fist" is a person who lends grain, a horse, or farm equipment. The calculation is also made by grain from the harvest. He could also bring goods from the city necessary for fellow villagers on order, with payment in the same grain. Many peasants did not have their own horses, and therefore were not able to carry their products to the city on their own.

The Russian village then is the agricultural way of the 16th century. All land belongs to the village community. Every year or two there is a redistribution of land between families in the community. The amount of land allocated to a family depends on the number of men in it (those who can cultivate the land). Accordingly, the peasant is not interested in caring for the land, because in a year it will no longer be his plot. His task is to get the maximum return for the moment that he owns this land. The Russian peasant is a poor peasant. According to the questionnaires of conscripts, many peasants first tasted meat only in the army. Usually they could eat it only on big holidays.
Famine in Russia was an almost constant phenomenon:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droughts_and_famines_in_Russia_and_the_Soviet_Union

Marketable grain and other products were produced in the overwhelming majority of large landlord farms. Advanced agricultural technologies were used there.
Title: Re: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: Pan Marek on January 18, 2022, 02:17:58 PM
Mark-  Thank you!   Again, your knowledge of this period is amazing.  Of course you'd recommend Figes.  I read Lincoln and Mawdsley, so the one I didn't read held the info I craved.

Cuprum-  Spacyba!  I was starting to come to the conclusion you provide.  Which is that Russia's rural economy of the very early 20th century was much like a late medieval/early renaissance economy in the west.  Which explains ALOT of my confusion up until now.

Both of you are truly indispensable to the rest of us gaming this period.

Can I get more obsequious?  Yes I can!   It just occurred to me that there isn't a "Wargamer's Guide to the RCW".   Now I know one of you lives in NZ and the other in Russia, but have either of you thought about writing (or better yet, collaborating) on such a book?  You have the knowledge!

Title: Re: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: cuprum on January 18, 2022, 03:05:51 PM
I will add. Shortly before the First World War, Pyotr Stolypin, the Russian prime minister, began to reform agriculture in Russia. He wanted to introduce free trade in land, due to which it was planned to create large farms. But this would destroy the habitual rural community and doom the mass of the liberated rural population to begging or starvation. Weak Russian industry would not have been able to absorb such a quantity of unskilled labor. The proposed resettlement of these peasants to Siberia, with some financial support from the state, also failed - after the very first experiments in settling on the Siberian wastelands, most of the peasants began to return to their former places of residence. The Russian village met this reform with a real peasant war, with many thousands killed , executed, burned farms ...

But the indigenous Siberians were perfectly able to grow bread and other crops in Siberia. Fortunately, there was as much land here as you like and for free. Peasants in Siberia lived richly. Even then, many villages had telephones and electric lighting. There was no community here from the very beginning; in fact, the Siberian peasant was a hereditary farmer in the classical sense of the word.
But Siberians reacted extremely negatively to the wave of "emigrants" from Central Russia.

And I also forgot to mention that the main type of rural trade was fairs, held after the harvest in some large village, where city merchants brought their goods and bought products from the peasants.
Many peasants went to the city for a part-time job for the winter - they built, worked as loaders, etc., for which they already received real money.

Title: Re: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: cuprum on January 18, 2022, 03:16:13 PM
Where to find so much time to write a book?  ;)  It's not real for me now ::)

Here you will find many photos of a Little Russian/Ukrainian village: 

https://yandex.ru/images/search?text=украинское%20село%20на%20старых%20фото&from=tabbar

The direct link is not working properly. Copy the address and paste it into the address bar of your browser.
Title: Re: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: Pan Marek on January 18, 2022, 04:24:15 PM
Eshche raz spacybo, moy drug!

I have read about the attempts at agricultural reform, but my serious studies of Russian history were in college, in the late 70s!  Its good to be reminded.  Your mention of "fairs" reinforces the near medieval aspects of village economy at that time.  And the reality of Siberia goes a way towards explaining White support in the region during the Civil War.

As for a book, I guess its all up to Mark!
My suggestion was mainly in jest, although such a book sure would be handy.
Title: Re: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: Mark Plant on January 18, 2022, 07:53:01 PM
I did add the "Red Army" section of my website partly to help newbies. And partly because I had found some interesting material to share.

My problem is that I tend to get sidetracked into odd pockets, and ignore the main theatres.
Title: Re: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: cuprum on January 19, 2022, 05:35:02 AM
But about the Siberian peasants who massively supported the whites, you are wrong.
Siberians, as a rule, at first reacted rather coolly to all kinds of new power - red and white. In Siberia, the Bolsheviks simply did not pursue the policy towards the peasants that they later pursued in Central Russia, at the time of their actual military encirclement and deprivation of access to most resources (the policy of war communism). In 1918, it had not yet begun, and the first food detachments in the village bought bread at fixed prices, to which the peasants were already accustomed (at that moment the money was still worth at least something). And in the near future, the Bolsheviks were thrown back from Siberia by the Czechoslovaks and the Whites.
And as a result, it was the whites who acted as the first and main offenders of the peasants here. An explosion of peasant discontent caused the forced conscription of peasants into Kolchak's army. The peasants did their best to avoid this. Then the military detachments sent by the white authorities began to massively flog with rods in public, in the central squares of the villages, the relatives of the evading conscripts - their parents and wives. The property of the evaders was confiscated.
There has never been serfdom in Siberia. Free people have always lived here, with the appropriate mentality. As a result of such a stupid policy, Kolchak immediately received 100 thousand angry red partisans in Siberia and several "internal" taiga fronts. The partisans actively attacked the railway lines, expelled the white government from rural areas. Czechoslovak, Polish, Romanian, Italian, Japanese and other units of the interventionists actively took part in the counter-partisan war, which further intensified the struggle of the partisans against the Whites.
By the way, many of these partisans were actually not "red" but "black" - they were anarchists. For example, the leaders of Rogov, Novoselov, Kalandarishvili and others. The Siberian anarchist armies outnumbered Makhno's famous armies.
After the Whites were expelled from Siberia, a guerrilla war against the Reds had already begun. But its scale was much more modest - about 50 thousand partisans fought against the Reds. Interestingly, their opponents were mostly also former Siberian partisans who entered the Red Army.

Here is a thread about Siberian partisans on my forum: http://siberia-miniatures.ru/forum/showthread.php?tid=11&fid=12&block=0
Title: Re: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: FramFramson on January 19, 2022, 02:55:46 PM
Wow, so much detailed information! You guys are always amazing!
Title: Re: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: Pan Marek on January 19, 2022, 04:35:45 PM
Cuprum-
As always, great information.  And at a level of detail that most books in English simply do not approach.

Tell me again how you shouldn't write a book?  LOL.
Title: Re: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: Ignatieff on January 19, 2022, 05:25:23 PM
Russian peasants did not need barbers. Pictures of the peasants of the time show the most appalling haircuts -- and beards -- known to man. “

most peasants drank homemade samogon so they had no need to expensive taverns.”

Mark, you make it sound like an alternative universe version of Norfolk minus the Wetherspoons and populated with hipsters. :D

You've obviously never been to North Norfolk  lol
Title: Re: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: Ignatieff on January 19, 2022, 05:26:28 PM
Wow, so much detailed information! You guys are always amazing!

they are, aren't they.  Superb!
Title: Re: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: Mark Plant on January 20, 2022, 01:35:43 AM
Cuprum: I'm updating Pygmy Wars today, so I'll make some changes on the Red Partisans page.

I don't disagree with what you've written factually, but I suspect I disagree on the importance of the Siberian Partisans. While there were lots of them, they were spread thinly and with very poor weaponry. They never really threatened the Trans-Siberian Railway, although they did some minor damage to it from time to time. The Cossacks, Czechs and Japanese were kept busy defending the rail line, but didn't ever take big losses. And none of those troops were lost to Kolchak, because none of them were interested in fighting for him anyway. Kolchak's biggest transport issues were the incredible corruption in the White ranks and Semenov/Kalmykov.

Makhno captured large towns and several times seriously defeated both significant units of Whites and Reds. Antonov removed an entire province in the centre of Russia. Compared to them, what some isolated groups did in the taiga wasn't going to bother anyone much, no matter how numerous.

I also assume you are using "Kolchak" as a symbol for the White cause, rather than the man himself. The Cossacks, especially the likes of Semenov and Annenkov, were far more violent in their repressions. The large areas you talk about being lost to White control were in eastern Siberia, which were in Cossack control, and Kolchak only in name. Western Siberia was nowhere near as badly affected. Conscription also pre-dated him, although not by much.

Having said that, I will rewrite the page to reflect what you noted.
Title: Re: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: cuprum on January 20, 2022, 04:41:01 AM
To judge the effectiveness of partisan actions, one must understand that Siberia is a sparsely populated region and the population here is very unevenly distributed. Here is a map of 1914, which shows the population density (at the top, the numbers indicate how many people are on average per square verst (verst is 1.07 km)).

(http://b.radikal.ru/b26/2201/6e/a7b2e9ebed42.jpg)

https://downloader.disk.yandex.ru/preview/cf4ed3eecbf78f890913ea8ac7e2e9446c6961ecfa71e7107fbc46c3a0bd5b27/61e90f96/H1hUPbvtgfkzGJaAOtY3aq7bgepDl-ADUQr0IbC0JIcMwTnplluK-Cy-zI3RN93mq_J6bpmRyOJonT3VoXnDag%3D%3D?uid=0&filename=pdf%20%2816%29.jpg&disposition=inline&hash=&limit=0&content_type=image%2Fjpeg&owner_uid=0&tknv=v2&size=1920x1080

And these are the layouts of the partisan armies in the rear of the white army:

(http://c.radikal.ru/c19/2201/46/46d2b5ad7590.jpg)

11 - West Siberian Partisan Army
12 - Yenisei partisan army
13 - Army of Trans-Baikal partisans
14 - Amur partisan army

Here is an excerpt from an excellent article on the history of the partisan movement in Siberia with the results of the activities of the partisans:

The partisan movement ultimately played a huge role in the weakening and elimination of anti-Bolshevik regimes in Siberia. The partisans disorganized the rear, dispersed the local authorities of the “whites”, the police, and destroyed communications. Many partisan formations operating in the area of ​​the strategically important Trans-Siberian Railway kept the troops guarding it in constant tension. The guerrillas attacked stations, destroyed railways, bridges, cut off telegraph wires, organized several large train wrecks that caused great resonance. As a result, the capacity of the railway was reduced, the supply of the White armies suffered, and the plans of the "White" command were frustrated. The Siberian newspapers of the Civil War period often published reports of hostilities under the heading "On the Internal Fronts", so visible and sensitive were these military operations for the "whites".

In the fall of 1919, the Siberian partisans, according to tentative estimates of historians, diverted up to 20% of the Kolchak troops and the armed forces of the interventionists deployed on the territory of the region. At the end of September 1919, the commander of the Omsk Military District, Lieutenant General A.F. Matkovsky was forced to declare almost all of Western Siberia a theater of operations.

In numerous battles, the Siberian partisans inflicted significant damage on the enemy in terms of manpower and weapons, destroying, injuring and capturing tens of thousands of soldiers and officers. About eight thousand Kolchak soldiers voluntarily went over to the side of the partisans, including soldiers of the 43rd and 46th regiments, the teams of the Sokol armored train, the Turkestan and Stepnyak armored cars at the end of November 1919 on the territory of the Steppe Altai. At the same time, several thousand Siberian partisans were killed and wounded in battles with punitive detachments and regular units of Kolchak and foreign troops.

By the end of 1919, the partisans independently liberated a number of Siberian cities: Ilimsk (September 10), Minusinsk (September 13), Slavgorod (November 19), Kamen (November 28), Barnaul (December 10), Shcheglovsk (December 21), etc. The partisan movement reached such a scale that under the control of the "whites" there was actually only a strip along the Trans-Siberian railway up to 100-150 miles wide, along which their demoralized armies retreated.

However, the strategic (and historical) significance of the Siberian partisan movement was not only in its military, but almost to a greater extent in its socio-political results. Being predominantly peasant in its social composition (and the peasantry accounted for approximately 90% of the population of Siberia), this mass movement clearly demonstrated the narrowness of the social base of the counterrevolutionary forces, primarily the military dictatorship of the Supreme Ruler Admiral A.V. Kolchak. It was the lack of social support from the majority of the Siberian population that was one of the main reasons for the defeat of the counter-revolution in eastern Russia.

Here is the entire article:  https://zaimka.ru/larkov-shishkin-partisans/
Title: Re: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: cuprum on January 20, 2022, 05:42:00 AM
A few photos of the results of the activities of the partisans:

(http://a.radikal.ru/a10/2201/f9/e0cd5181a98c.jpg)

(http://a.radikal.ru/a22/2201/dc/e91e2bfdcfcd.jpg)

(http://d.radikal.ru/d24/2201/b1/880c937cba64.jpg)

(http://a.radikal.ru/a26/2201/86/9dcc41bf3c8a.jpg)

As for terror, every civil war has it, especially where there is a massive guerrilla war. I see no point in discussing this topic here. Suffice it to say that, unlike many other leaders of the White movement, Kolchak's status as a war criminal was not removed in court and is still recognized as such at the state level.
And for clarity, here are fragments from the order of the governor of the Yenisei and part of the Irkutsk provinces, Lieutenant General S.N. Rozanov (this is by no means a Cossack ataman) to his troops involved in the fight against partisans:

"To the chiefs of military detachments operating in the region of the uprising:

1. When occupying villages previously captured by robbers, demand the extradition of their leaders; if this does not happen, and there is reliable information about the availability of such, - shoot <every> tenth.

2. Villages, the population of which will meet government troops with weapons, burn; to shoot the adult male population without exception; property, horses, carts, bread, and so on, to be taken away in favor of the treasury.

<...>
6. Take hostages among the population, in case of action by fellow villagers directed against government troops, shoot hostages mercilessly "
Title: Re: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: Mark Plant on January 20, 2022, 09:14:08 AM
Given that all sides in the RCW routinely shot prisoners, even torturing them first, the behaviour of the Whites against Siberian partisans was fairly standard. The behaviour of partisans towards captured officers or interventionists was usually a lot worse than shooting every tenth.

I'm not sure who you are trying to persuade at the moment though Cuprum. I accept that White atrocities were a driving force behind the partisan movement. OK, I think the Cossacks were the worst culprits (and S.N. Rozanov was in a Cossack area, if I read my sources right) but we all know the rest of the Whites weren't angels.

One of the reasons I like to game the RCW is that I genuinely don't care who wins -- they were all foul in real life.

Partisans are one of those cultural issues, to me. Forgive me for generalising, but for historical reasons Russians want to believe that partisans -- as a reflection of the popular mood of the people -- are also an effective military force.

I've read quite carefully on this, and my conclusion is that partisans are a pain for the occupying army, but rarely of major military significance. This applies in general, not just the RCW. Such as WWII partisans: talked up by the Russian and French for political reasons, but not by the Germans -- who were the ones who had to deal with them.
Title: Re: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: cuprum on January 20, 2022, 10:03:35 AM
We all recently witnessed how the most modern army in the world turned out to be powerless against poorly armed and trained partisans)))
Title: Re: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: carlos marighela on January 20, 2022, 11:31:15 AM
Witnessed it more than once in the past 50 years as it happens. ;)

Of course there was another intervention into Afghanistan in recent memory by another one time super power that didn’t work out as planned.
Title: Re: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: cuprum on January 20, 2022, 11:37:16 AM
Partisans rarely win battles, but often wars)))
In my opinion, there is only one way to win a guerrilla war - to win the sympathy of the population to your side. Terror (especially massive and indiscriminate) is usually ineffective, and often vice versa - it only kindles resistance.

As for the USSR, they managed to effectively overcome the resistance of the Basmachi in Central Asia.
Title: Re: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: trev on January 20, 2022, 02:37:50 PM
Loads more great information and opinions chaps.  Thanks for the scenery links. 

On partisans, I would say that there have been far too many instances were irregular warfare has been a major factor in a conflict to dismiss it as insignificant.  Not that I think Mark really did that. 

Also, if there is a fetishisation of partisans I'd say it's probably by us wargamers.  We like to have our toys on the table, so partisans, who probably mostly fought against soft targets, can become some sort of rough terrain specialist light infantry. 
Title: Re: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: doctorphalanx on January 20, 2022, 03:17:17 PM
Thanks to everyone who has commented on scenery and/or broadened the thread with background information. I guess some people just game but I always like to explore and understand the historical aspects etc, so this is very much appreciated.
Title: Re: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: Mark Plant on January 21, 2022, 01:19:43 AM
Back to Don terrain.

The steppe lands can be hard to determine. They are mostly flat, when standing on them, and many of them are just that. But many of them are cut by ravines (balka) that are a pain to model on a table, but give interesting games.

For example this is the land just west of Volgagrad, that was the scene of three major sieges of the city in the RCW: https://maps.vlasenko.net/smtm100/m-38-113.jpg (https://maps.vlasenko.net/smtm100/m-38-113.jpg)

It's a pain to fight through the Russian names, but when you do you can use Google earth to "see" the landscape e.g. heading into modern Studeno-Yablonka (https://www.google.co.nz/maps/@48.7110399,44.3741803,3a,75y,305.32h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sMlHgKlLJQE2hsoIDlHLhNA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DMlHgKlLJQE2hsoIDlHLhNA%26cb_client%3Dsearch.revgeo_and_fetch.gps%26w%3D96%26h%3D64%26yaw%3D305.32355%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en&authuser=0) which is 53 98 by 44 53 on the Soviet topographic map.

Some things have changed -- the Volga is dammed, many of the towns are much bigger. But the villages are often remarkably similar to what they were. In some areas there seem to be more trees than there were 100 years ago. People no longer cut them down for building and firewood, for a start.

But if you really have no idea what you are trying to recreate, Google street view is a treat.
Title: Re: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: doctorphalanx on January 21, 2022, 09:02:41 AM
Mark, some of the street view spots on Google Earth are absolutely brilliant for seeing what villages really look like. And although much of the land is flat, I see there are areas where the undulations in the ground are significant enough to count.
Title: Re: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: FramFramson on January 21, 2022, 05:51:50 PM
Leaving the question of terror tactics aside for the moment, a partisan or guerrilla force's effectiveness will often depend on how much external support it can obtain.

In the modern era, very few unsupported partisan operations were militarily effective in a larger conflict (though the Yugoslav partisans of WWII are a very notable exception), but ones with external supply lines can make a big difference.

In the Russian context it's interesting to look at how much external support various the partisan groups were able to obtain, and how directly that affected their relative effectiveness as a military force. Especially since you see everything from irregular or raiding units from a main army, all the way down to barely-armed untrained civilians.

It can also be difficult to assess that effectiveness, as an occupying force will often be unclear or deny the effect that partisan activity is having, so calculating exactly how many additional military units the occupying armies had to devote for anti-partisan activity (and thus how effective the partisans were) can be a tough question! This is, in my opinion, the main purpose of partisans when they are a smaller part of a larger war, and are thus an adjunct to the regular army. This is the situation we tend to see in the Russian Civil War because it is a larger conflict, even though it had a relatively high number of under-supplied and under-trained troops, as well as many irregular units, and even semi-independent warlord factions.

However in situations where the ENTIRE war is a war of occupation against guerrillas, the math is more about the cost of that occupation to the occupier, though even in that case, the effectiveness of the guerrillas will still depend very heavily on how much outside support they can obtain.
Title: Re: 28mm scenery for Russian Civil War
Post by: Mark Plant on January 21, 2022, 08:47:55 PM
Most of the partisans in the RCW were motivated by a desire for everyone else to leave them alone. Generally they weren't a major problem to an occupying force if they didn't cause trouble. That's not the same as no problem, but resistant peasants who didn't go looking for trouble could usually be ignored.

The Whites didn't spend any effort fighting most of the large "Green" areas as they headed towards Moscow in 1919. They did take some food and fodder, but they didn't attempt to tax or conscript. That meant the villages didn't explode into open revolt. They weren't safe places for isolated soldiers though.

Makhno was different, and it is why he is famous -- and Zelenyi, who controlled an enormous area, is not. Being politically motivated, Makhno didn't just want to be left alone. He actively went looking to attack White power. He actually had an army, not just some partisans, and was prepared to fight in the open.

The Reds had the same issues, with reverse politics. Zelenyi was also mostly ignored by the Soviets as they fought the AFSR and Poles, because he wasn't an active threat. But the Cossack revolts in the Soviet zones were politically motivated, and quickly became significant military problems as well. Cossack partisans quickly became Cossack armies.