Lead Adventure Forum
Other Stuff => General Wargames and Hobby Discussion => Topic started by: tin shed gamer on January 17, 2022, 05:29:14 PM
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I've been slowly plodding through my lead pile and painting up some fantasy miniatures at snails rate. Simply because I've spent years painting ww1 and ww2.
Finally had enough painted to play a game.( okay I had to supplement in some Citadel Norman's to make up the numbers).
Why 3rd edition?
Because that's one of the two fantasy rule sets I have( not including LOTR). Plus I've enough of a castle built for a siege game, and I've the siege supplement. So it seemed the logical option.
Our original plan was to familiarise our selves with an hour long run through and move on to a quick siege run through.
But.. The first game led to a stalemate and a serious head scratching.
So I figured I'd ask for musing on an Alternative system.
I've (and still to paint) Elves, Dwarves, Chaos and Orcs.
( possibly a small force of slann)
Plus dragons and giants.An Empire/human force ( already halfway through painting)
Each race is around 150-200 miniatures. I've no real plans to expand beyond this size as storage will become an issue.
So is there anything out there that'll accommodate these size forces and siege games?
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Stick with it.
3rd ed was "my" era Warhammer (some of my stuff resides among those pages) and was the last rank and flank iteration of the rules. Units are important and good battlefield tactics will win out. It is a well balanced game (especially using the 2nd ed Ravening Hordes army lists) with no obviously super armies. Although that said I played Dwarves back then and never managed to beat Wood Elves so I am suspicious of them.
After 3rd ed you get into the Herohammer editions where finding killer weapon/magic combos to use on ultra expensive character models wins games, not tactics.
The siege expansion was sadly not well tested and takes a bit of user input to make it work. Sieges are actually pretty dull affairs, it is an escalade or a breach assault that you want to look at gaming with castles.
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I mean, if you have the miniatures...no point in "sticking" with anything, unless it's more or less directing what you buy and paint.
The new Kings of War gets some good reviews. There are far simpler games like Lion and Dragon Rampant which could use all of those miniatures. My buddy has been running some games based on Warwick Kinrade's Soldiers of God/Soldiers of Rome...but we simply use it for light fantasy, etc.
Who do you game with? Have you considered writing/adjusting the rules to make you genuinely happy? Converting or editing rules is pretty simple. I think it would depend on what your friends play (or what they're willing to play - if you're the one hosting games with all the miniatures, etc.). If you're going to be hosting the games, then you can relax your rules, modify them, write your own, or find the ones you think are the most fun for your players, etc.
While I don't follow the genre super closely, I don't think there are any major "huge" super popular fantasy rank-n-flank games that come to mind.
I don't know of any system with a heavily developed siege system, but that's pretty easy to fix yourself.
Once you have a big fantasy army, those miniatures can also (obviously) be put into any kind of fantasy skirmish. Your castle can be a terrain center piece for skirmish games vs. a full on siege battle.
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I've always had more of a preference for The Rules According To Ral with pencilled in fantasy and magic units (free online), and the later Chaos Wars with fantasy and magic officially written in (and currently available through Ral Partha Legacy) over Warhammer 3rd (which was enjoyable enough).
I've never come across rules for a tabletop siege that were actually fun to play. I don't recall the WH Siege rules to be any worse than others. It does make for a pretty game at least.
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Stick with it,I’ve still got first edition you modernist :)
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I’ve been playing Age of Fantasy by Onepagerules and they’ve been great fun so far, providing balanced and quick games so I can get through a few battles in one evening.
They have a system called Age of Fantasy: Regiments that might be down your alley, it’s their rank and flank system.
Sieges might be slightly tricky but I’m going to be playtesting a rule where units scaling the walls count make a dangerous terrain check whenever they lose against a unit defending the walls that they are attempting to sieze. If the defending unit loses the melee they are pushed back so that the attacking unit can now place some of its models upon the walls.
Hope this helps :)
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Cheers Chaps,
The main reason for looking for pastures new. Is curiosity. As there's a lot of content on,and love for later editions. I was just wondering if they'd be an easier option To pick up and play.Rather than read through and scratch?
The castle isn't a one trick pony. As it's modular and has both breached sections and wall end supports. Plus a multi level keep that can free stand on the table. It'll end up in both Pulp games and fantasy. It'll work for Frostgrave scenery as well.
The reason I mentioned siege games is because I've both a castle and the siege rules. So it makes sense that If I'm going to try a new system. Then it needs to at least have similar options to use all my terrain. ( No point switching to a set of rules that only uses wide barron battlefields. When you've invested time in hills and forest scenery. )
I think some where in the work shop I've several armies books from later additions. I've no idea when or why I ended up with them.I know I've the army book for 3rd edition.
Which is why I'm slightly hesitating on rooting through the myriad of rules out there. As I've no real point of reference since it's been decades since I gamed fantasy.
The only thing I do know is I've absolutely no interest in play games in 'the Age of Sigmar.'
I'll be popping over to the York show ( if it's still on and if any of the relevant retailers actually show up. (( the last Partizan was understandably short on traders.))So I was hoping for some insight from the hive mind rather than be stood listening to an opinion that's naturally driven by the desire for a sale.
I've enough of an issue trying to figure out which set of ww2 rules will represent the Homefront game I'm still building and sculpting miniatures for.With out adding Fantasy rules to the mix. lol
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I would highly recommend Lion/Dragon Rampant. I was an old time WFB 3rd edition (plus siege!) player from back in the day. After the early 1990's the minis got stuck in the loft and forgotten about until I had kids and decided to give them something to do so rescued said figures. I quickly realised that WFB was basically brilliant but rubbish at the same time. The ideas, settings, figures, etc all screamed fun but the game itself was way too long and convoluted. There is no way to finish a game in an evening unless it is tiny. I didn't need an all day game, I needed one that could be played in a couple of hours.
Enter Lead Adventure and the buzz at the time was about Lion Rampant. For £12 I thought what's to lose? Bought it and haven't looked back. I was a collecting magpie back in the day so have Feudals, Empire, Undead, Orc, Goblins, Dwarves and Chaos all with about 60-100 figures. Lion Rampant is perfect for this size of force, you can play it in 2 hours and it was fun.
The system is incredibly adaptable to your figures and also rule adaptations. It doesn't have a siege system so I made one up for it. If you are interested I can share it somehow I'm sure (can you post Word docs to the forum?)
So yeah I'd recommend getting a copy of Lion or Dragon Rampant and give it a go.
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Have you tried an Oldhammer forum or Oldhammer FB to get input from other players? May even be a 3rd ed specific one around?
If you haven't played it for 30+ years unless you've that help then some white dwarfs from that era with batreps and scenarios and features on the rules/characters that may help for some scenario design.
If not then I'd suggest a current popular game such as Kings of War, new Fantastic Battles maybe worth a look, or Oathmark which seems to be getting a lot of traction and one of the few Fantasy Rulesets getting some wargaming magazine love outside of Workshop, Dragon Rampant is too but they maybe a bit smaller size game than you mentioned but maybe worth a look.
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I quickly realised that WFB was basically brilliant but rubbish at the same time. The ideas, settings, figures, etc all screamed fun but the game itself was way too long and convoluted. There is no way to finish a game in an evening unless it is tiny.
Very much my experience back in the day! When we started playing Hordes of the Things, we never played Warhammer again. I remember that as a real 'scales from the eyes' moment - "So this is what a good massed-battle wargame's like".
Lion/Dragon Rampant is great; the one caveat might be that it's very much small bands of troops (6 or 12 per unit, with a 1:1 figure scale) and not rank'n'flank. My experience is that it plays best at 4-6 units a player. But it's terrific fun.
My son and I played a few "square-based games" last year; we thought Warhammer third compared poorly with Oathmark and Chainmail, both of which give you much more action for your dice roll (and thus play much more quickly). I find the hit/wound/save succession of rolls clunky and antiquated, especially for a big game.
Kings of War, in my very limited experience of playing it, is a well-designed game - fast and clean and elegant. I think the current edition doesn't (yet) have siege rules, but the past two did, I think (and you can get a bundle of the first-edition rules and supplements for a tenner). One advantage of Kings of War is that it's ported over all the Warhammer base sizes, so that orcs and lizard men ("salamanders") are on 25s while humans, dwarfs, etc., are on 20s. Oathmark assumes that all troops are on 25s; many other games work on the assumption that all infantry will be on 20s. Kings of War also works in a Warhammer-ish way when it comes to heroes and magic items, but - I gather - with much more careful balance so that these things don't become overpowering. I recall that when we played Warhammer 3rd as kids, we agreed to ban all magicians above first level and all magic items!
You can also get a cheaper Kings of War rulebook that cuts all the background stuff and just gives you the rules and army lists.
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As mentioned by others, if you have the armies collected and painted, then you basically have the "hard part done", and can choose to try out whatever rules you fancy.
My own "youth era" of WHFB is 4th/5th, and it has to be said that 5th was a fair clean-up and improvement of that generation of rules all-round. I do know that many people didn't like the "Battle Magic" which replaced the previous "Colour Magic", but (1) you can just use Colour if you prefer since it's still 100% compatible, and (2) Battle was designed to be a bit more balanced and make it harder for some armies to consistently get the exact game-winning spell they needed every game. 5th Edition also had a full Siege supplement, although like all the other siege supplements that GW have ever put out it is pretty stodgy and drawn-out to actually play... Finally, a note on the "Herohammer" epithet; whilst broadly accurate, the game doesn't *need* heroes tooled-up to the nines to be playable, and either players can agree to exercise a bit of self-restraint (ask yourself: "would I want to play against this?"), or have a Magic Item draft instead (preferred). The main downside of this edition is probably tracking down all the army books, as well as the myriad cards and templates.
After that, you have 6th edition. Looking back, this is probably (IMO) the most widely-liked edition of the game across all the editions. Heroes are pretty restricted, units are king, the game is streamlined enough that you can get a game done in an afternoon, and there's no real need for lots of paraphernalia to play the game with. In fact, the big rulebook has rules for sieges and skirmish games in it too. Since this is one of the rare occasions where every supported army got an army book release during the same edition, there was quite a lot of material released for this edition. The only things I would say are "must-haves" are Ravening Hordes (regarded by many as the fairest army lists the game ever had), the latest edition of the army books for your forces (they often had themed variant lists in them, and were rather fun), and the latest Warhammer Chronicles (2004) which included the latest errata, FAQ, missing units, etc in it. Given how cheaply you can get a hardcopy of the rulebook on ebay, and the relative ease with which you can find a copy of Ravening Hordes online, I would suggest this could be worth a go without much outlay/effort needed, and you can always acquire the army books you want later if you like the game.
Honourable mention goes to 7th edition, which as a ruleset was probably the most refined WHFB ever got, only to be broken as an edition by increasingly unbalanced army books. I know there are a fair few who espouse playing 7th but with forces chosen via 6th edition army books (or even Ravening Hordes!), and this seems to me like a fair suggestion if you either have those books already, or play in a "competitive" group.
Finally, to mention a few other rulesets that you could try out with your existing forces, some of which have been mentioned already:
Kings of War 3rd Edition - Designed by Alessio Cavatore, who assisted on WHFB6E and wrote WHFB7E. Very streamlined, easy to get into, and polished to the point that there are no real "grey areas" that hold up a game in progress. Most/all WHFB armies have a KoW equivalent.
Oathmark - More of a "Dark Ages" than a "High Medieval" fantasy setting, but the rules are pretty streamlined and easy to get into. The way forces are constructed is quite different to other games too, which makes for some interesting possibilities in terms of what units can be in your army.
One Page Rules Fantasy Regiments. These, and the army lists, are all free. There's a more elaborate version available for a small fee, but the free version is enough to get a few games in and see what you think of it first. This is clearly aimed at WHFB players too, so every unit made for that game has a home in the forces lists.
None of these alternatives has any Siege rules, although I think earlier versions of KoW did (via supplement). I would expect the previous KoW Siege supplements are still compatible though, since the game is more polished than re-written for each edition.
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I’ll throw my views into the ring despite not being a fantasy gamer….and hence totally unbiased! I know my mates who used to play WFB mainly moved onto KoW and view it as a good system. I have been persuaded to try Oathmark and found it OK, but nothing special. More akin to a historical ruleset with magic bolted on.I have agreed to try KoW this Sunday so will have a better view then.
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KoW is an interesting game. I agree with all the above about it being a cleanly written system with wide ranging army lists.
But it is a very different style of game to most wargames. Charges are the only way to cause damage in melee. The defender doesn’t fight back. Positioning of units feels far more chess like - i.e. what can you use to take your unit next term. Not building a traditional battle line.
I’ve had fun games of KoW - but it can be very marmite - several of our gaming group don’t like it at all.
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I am one of those persons who doesn’t like KoW. While I respect the rules as a game - and as others have remarked, it’s a very polished game, it’s just too gamey for my taste. No fog of war, few uncertainty and no morale system iirc.
Dragon Rampant is fun and I definitely want to give HotT a try (Hobgoblin is a big fan of them).
Two new rulesets that might work are Fantastic Battles and the new mass battle set by Ganesha - I forgot the name (Of Armies and Hordes?)
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Some really.good suggestions here. I wholeheartedly agree with what everyone says about KoW- very clean system, it's great having all the army lists in the main book (well and the Uncharted Empires supplement) and it let's you have pretty big games in a pretty reasonable length of time BUT it is quite gamey, it's clearly devised with tournament play in mind.
If you like rulebooks the 3rd edition Hardback book is also quite lovely. Great maps.
If you can hunt down a copy (as I believe it is out of print) the Jake Thornton ruleset he did for Foundry 'God of Battles' had some great ideas.
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I still haven't played Kings of War 3rd, but I know 1st and 2nd, and it's a fast-playing, simple-but-tactical game. The one thing that confuses a lot of people is the chess-like nature of movement; flank and rear attacks get double or triple the normal dice.
A friend of mine wants to get Oathmark on the table badly. I have heard good things but haven't gotten to try it yet.
If you want something really different, Saga: Age of Magic might be worth a look. The only downside is that you'll have to either buy special dice or have conversion tables handy (they are provided in the books). Warlords of Erehwon is another one I want to try but haven't gotten to yet- it has a similar activation mechanic to Bolt Action.
I was also looking at Three Plains (https://printandplayfantasy.com/three-plains-rulebooks/), but it seems like it's really detailed, and I don't know if I have the patience for something that complex. 4 hours for a normal-sized game is way too long for me; considering that I once participated in a 6 players per side Kings of War mega-battle that took that amount of time, I was really turned off by that statement.
I've recently been informed of Warhammer Renaissance (https://www.facebook.com/groups/229862157776959/files/), if you want to see what a community-balanced take on 5th Edition Warhammer looks like. They have a Facebook group.
There's also The Ninth Age, which started as a continuation of 8th Edition but from what little I've seen of it, it's turned into its own game.
Lastly, Order on the BoardGameGeek website has a pretty comprehensive list of mass battle fantasy games that he has reviewed. Not sure if your tastes will line up with his, but I think it's worth a read: https://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/275890/fantasy-mass-battle-miniature-wargames
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You might give good old-fashioned Chainmail a try. The rules lack modern sensibilities, with a decidedly primitive layout and organization, and minimalist artwork. However, there are a number of good videos on YouTube that will walk you through, and help you learn as you go.
Good evening includes a fairly comprehensive engine for running sieges. That engine is complete with points cost for various elements of a castle under siege. I have not yet worked up to trying it myself, but I can tell you the game flows really well once you piece it all together. I'm around rules can be a bit clunky, being fairly math heavy.
And if you poke around you should be able to find a PDF of them online for cheap.
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You might give good old-fashioned Chainmail a try.
Good evening includes a fairly comprehensive engine for running sieges. That engine is complete with points cost for various elements of a castle under siege. I have not yet worked up to trying it myself, but I can tell you the game flows really well once you piece it all together. I'm around rules can be a bit clunky, being fairly math heavy.
Ah, I forgot that included siege rules (never used them); for a field battle, it was certainly less clunky than WRG 6th Edition!
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Cheers everyone, that's a lot more to look into than I bargained for. lol
I've still a couple of weeks to mull over everyone's Ideas before Vapnartak. As I mentioned at the start I think I've a second set of rules floating about the workshop. It's bugging the life out of me what they are. So while the heater warms the place up enough to start work .I'm going to find the damned things.Im under no illusions if I've forgotten what they are and where they are. I'm definitely not going to have a eureka moment and think these are the rules for me. ::)
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Some really.good suggestions here. I wholeheartedly agree with what everyone says about KoW- very clean system, it's great having all the army lists in the main book (well and the Uncharted Empires supplement) and it let's you have pretty big games in a pretty reasonable length of time BUT it is quite gamey, it's clearly devised with tournament play in mind.
If you like rulebooks the 3rd edition Hardback book is also quite lovely. Great maps.
If you can hunt down a copy (as I believe it is out of print) the Jake Thornton ruleset he did for Foundry 'God of Battles' had some great ideas.
Correction to my post. God of Battles is still available on Casting Room miniatures pages on the Foundry website. Its currently on sale.
https://www.castingroomminiatures.com/collections/god-of-battles/products/god-of-battles-by-jake-thornton
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Cheers Theo,
If Foundry are at York I'll have a word.
Slightly embarrassing.
Turns out the reason it was bugging me some much. Was because they were in plain sight. The compressor has been sat on them for years .Right next to the plug socket for the heater!
Does anyone remember them ? As turns out I've had them thirty year's. I don't think I ever gave them more than a glance .
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Lovely! never played them unfortunately.
Love me some Gary Chalk art, pure nostalgia after too many hours playing Hero quest and reading the Lone Wolf books as a kid.
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I think I probably bought them for the same reason. It turns out I own a copy of Saga too.Its still in it's bag and propping up the compressor as well. I'll have to get round to making a proper stand otherwise I'll get back into a project and prop the thing up again.
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Also on the list of consider not seen mentioned.
Warlords of Erewhon also seems to be a successful range it seems to be the love child of WFB and Bolt Action.
I remember having bought those cheap Gary Chalk rules, and selling them again some years ago.
Seeing that old Wargame I did a google, it makes use of D100 and auto casualties, simultaneous order system, so pretty heavy compared to a igo-ugo buckets of d6 and reviews seem to be a nice idea badly done. I probably switched off with the D100 mechanic didn't engage me. Reminds me of some very stodgy mid 80s medieval wargames in my mid teens, I wasn't keen on repeating that experience.
Also tripped over a game called Fantasy Warriors when googling, although that also seems a lacklustre version of WFB.
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Yeah, the Gary Chalk Warlord book is:
1) A stone-cold classic that's worth it for it's own sake
and
2) Far denser to play than WHFB3E! o_o
I would also point out that there's not too many square-based rank-n-flank games on the market for fantasy, and several of the games suggested here are more like AoS in terms of model movement/placement (i.e., "blobs" of models rather than neat rectangles).
The more I look at your opening post, and the more I think about it, the more I think WHFB6E is what you're looking for. It's biggest advantages for you are:
1) It is still "detailed" in that GW way where most units have a special rule or ability beyond their basic statline and equipment.
2) You still have customisable heroes with cool magic items.
3) You can do big games, small games, skirmish, or sieges with it.
4) It is a traditional rank-n-flank game.
5) It is both recent and popular enough that many people not only still play it, but even still hold 6E tournaments too. This also many of the books are still available second-hand in large numbers for reasonably cheap.
6) It's Warhammer, so all your models are a perfect fit, even down to basing size. There's also a working familiarity in terms of what you expect units to do and how they will perform.
7) Despite all the above, it is a hugely cleaned up and streamlined set of rules compared to 3E, without losing the elements that make the game feel like Warhammer. That means a decent-sized game takes an afternoon to play, and not a whole weekend.
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Fantasy Warriors had some pretty neat ideas. It’s available as a free pdf I think from Mirliton who have the old Grenadier sculpts. The crux of the game is the order system: units are ordered to hold, attack or manouver. The general has to order a unit to do anything different. It has a brutal cascading morale system as well so battles aren’t too long as one side will generally run away relatively quickly!
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Fantasy Warriors had some pretty neat ideas. It’s available as a free pdf I think from Mirliton who have the old Grenadier sculpts.
Is it? Hmm, good to know, thank you - I'll have to investigate this evening. :)
It has a brutal cascading morale system as well so battles aren’t too long as one side will generally run away relatively quickly!
Ah, old game design! 8)
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Ah, old game design! 8)
Also it could be argued a better model for medieval and ancient style battles. Generally they weren't fought until one side had killed most of the other but one side would generally up sticks and leg it long before half of them had been murdered. In fact most of the slaughter would then occur after that break as troops give chase against fleeing men.
Early Warhammer had a tendency to degenerate into last man standing. I remember one notable battle where we simply fielded every single model we owned. it ended with two halfings facing a single orc!
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Fantasy Warriors was my first tabletop love. I still consider it a pretty good game. The order and morale system make it stand out drom the mass of other games.
It had also very original rules for undead.
I didn’t like how they treated large models (saving throws!) and you could definitely cause overkill the system with cheesy combinations of heroes, priests amd giant monsters.
If a new edition somehow reformed the saving throws (giants had 3+ on 2d6 meant that such a model might die first turn or plow theough your enemy‘s whole army) and polished some other mechanisms (i don’t like individual casualty removal for instance), it could be a very good alternative on the market.
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I have so many different rule books from the many Years of being in the hobby and only played the one Fantasy,which was the Lord of the Rings rules that GW did after the films release.Not played it since either.
Now started on Conquest the last argument of Kings by Para Bellum.The game has two versions.The mass battle one with figures on square stands (four infantry to a stand,cavalry/brutes and monsters one to a stand. First Blood skirmish one where figures are loose (all miniatures in the game come with round bases then Stands to play the larger scale game). The game uses character and unit cards for playing which you build a deck out of and place upside down on the table and draw from the top.So you have to plan on what you want to do first.An interesting idea which i think works well.Also the game starts with no models on the table.Both players have to roll to see if thier units come on the board.Starting with light units,next turn you can try to bring on the other light units which did not make it and also to see if you can get any medium units.Turn three you get the chance to bring on heavy units.This also adds another good element to the game.Makes you plan your force a bit better with a good mix of unit types(light,medium and heavy).
Had three games of the First Blood version and liked how it played.Nords was the faction i was playing which are Viking/Norse types.The Ice Jotnar is a fantastic model.There is even an army builder on the Para Bellum site.There are five factions out now with another due in March.Undead Roman types which look pretty good.Then there are two other factions which have been mentioned.
The early plastic figures are not the best sculpting wise but the newer releases are getting better all of the time.Leader and character types are mostly in resin and is very well detailed and clean.
You can check-out the rules for free on the link :- https://www.para-bellum.com/rules-and-faq/
Warlord Games also have the Slaine game due out this Year.Always loved the comic stories and the miniatures that Fantasy Forge did many Years ago and Northstar now have.
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Big thanks to everyone. You've given me plenty food for thought. I have to admit I'm still non the wiser. So it's going to be my mission at Vapnartak on Sunday to spend time rooting rule books to see what I can find from the list of your suggestions.
As it's on the list of suggestions I've already picked up a copy of 6th edition WHFB. I payed the exorbitant ebay price of £7. lol
I still don't get The Warhammer crowd. They were all scraping over issues with battered corners and broken spines. Well into the high twenties. This copy had a minor crease/ fold on the rear cover. No one else even had it in watch. ::)
Even if in the end it's becomes a one read shelf sitter. I think it's not going to break the bank. :D
So once again thanks Chaps, I will be rooting for around for other systems to read through.
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Look, why not give me a 3rd Edition rulebook as a gift and I can look through it for you to come up with suggestions?
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Hi, I was reminded yesterday that James Morris is working on a set of rules called Midgard. From what I can see it is aimed at historical gaming but with more “characters” plus some “magic”. He demo-ed them at Newark last October and I think may be at Hammerhead in early March. He may be at Vapnartak this weekend.
By the way I played KoW two weeks ago. Very simple rules which did little for me. Buckets of dice much in evidence. At one stage my opponent rolled I think 38 dice in one attack!
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There is a youtube channel called 'Black Dragoon miniatures they often feature Warhammer Fantasy 6th Edition battle reports. I think both 6/7th edition were decent editions and gave a good game. I think you now have two types of ebay warhammer sellers, the ones who play the game which is where the bargains are, and that small minority who try to rake the prices to fund a second house!
I tried KOW and found the non active player turn just boring, sitting there and watching your opponents do countless rolls is just tedious. I suspect the reason why the defender doesn't fight/ roll back, is just to reduce the dice rolls !
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I suspect the reason why the [KOW] defender doesn't fight/ roll back, is just to reduce the dice rolls !
Yep, pretty much! It's actually a deliberate design choice partly to streamline the game, and partly to make the game better for competitive tournament play which allows for chess clocks to measure how long each player has to play. Making saving throws in your opponent's turn (or doing anything in your opponent's turn) could give unscrupulous players a way to "slow play" and rob their opponent of useful time. That said, through extreme streamlining, at least player turns are fairly quick so you don't have too long to wait.
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By the way I played KoW two weeks ago. Very simple rules which did little for me. Buckets of dice much in evidence. At one stage my opponent rolled I think 38 dice in one attack!
A Horde of Werewolves will roll 36 dice if it flanks an enemy, which is common because that's their main job.
Maybe you can get through to me on this, but why does everyone hate large amounts of dice? IIRC, there were two reasons for the large numbers of dice in Kings of War:
1) to appeal to Warhammer players, and 2) (more importantly) to allow for a lot of granularity in unit types while sticking with just d6s.
Is separating out the hits just not a big deal to me or something? No snark here; I legitimately don't understand, barring mobility issues that make it harder to roll lots of dice at once.
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I won’t argue about “buckets of dice”. I guess it is a personal thing. My opponent who I play regularly for various games didn’t have an issue with 36 dice.
As a non-regular fantasy player my big issue was having no idea what the attributes of the enemy was. My problem not KoW’s!
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My understanding is that KoW was designed as a game that you could play competitively in an hour and a half (using chess clocks) which is why in a game turn one player does everything. If you are playing under time pressures your opponents turn shouldn't be too long otherwise the danger is that the other player could lose interest.
As someone who grew up with GW games I'm perfectly comfortable with buckets of dice but equally I cam see whynit won't be for everyone- it's not particularly elegant!
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I appreciate your replies. I honestly just don't understand the buckets o' dice hate. I do know one player of DBx that didn't like it because he was just that accustomed to a single die, but even he said it was personal preference.
I asked because I've seen borderline disgust at using lots of dice elsewhere, as if it's bad design rather than just one of many options.
While I encourage everyone to try Kings of War at least once, I can completely understand if it's not one's cup of tea. In my case it was a mental block-breaker; didn't think I had the attention span for a rank-and-flank game before I tried it. I like the minis range, too.
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I'm a total buckets of dice-lover.
I'd like to add that at this point i play both -
- Warhammer Renaissance - mentioned earlier, a 4th/5th ed. WHFB spinoff available for free on the facebook page, and
https://www.facebook.com/groups/229862157776959
- Warhammer Armies project, based on 8th but well modified into an edition that reeks of 3rd., free on:
https://warhammerarmiesproject.blogspot.com/
- I like Oathmark.
- Dragon Rampant is nice but, as said by others, much smeller in scope.
If anything: always use Warhammer basing: 2x2, 2.5x2.5, 2.5x5.0 square/rectangular. Then you can always use them for any geme, with or without the use of sabots.
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Paul,
That's a very kind offer. However I COULD NOT in good conscience.
Force a Welsh man to read English on my behalf .
I'm at Vapnartak at the weekend so I'll see if James is floating around.
Most definitely not a fan of buckets of dice.. Pre Covid a mate convinced me to come a 40k game at club in City centre.
I last left after ten minutes ( It sound a bit pompous and rude.) It was huge game with twelve player's the first ork unit had 58 yes 58 D6 left to roll to wound.
It took me nanosecond to realise they had every intention of playing through the night if need be. I'm married there's not a cat in Hells chance I could ring her in doors and say I was staying out all night to play toy soldiers. More to the point I'd no intention of staying out all night playing with toys.
So I said it was unfair of me to start a game I simply couldn't see through to it's finish. Wished them all the best and we went for a pint, Then I was in trouble for being late home with a perfectly traditional stagger.Followed by a perfectly traditional hang over.
Besides it gave me horrific flash backs to working for Games Workshop. I was a round peg in a square hole.They were of the opinion that having made toys all day I should the spend my evenings playing games with same people I'd been stuck in a room with for ten hours. Where I was happier with the lads from the factory floor who's opinion was Rocky City Alcohol and the search for the opportunity to have breasts involved in your evening and hopefully the early morning too.
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Paul,
That's a very kind offer. However I COULD NOT in good conscience.
Force a Welsh man to read English on my behalf .
(https://www.memesmonkey.com/images/memesmonkey/3e/3e0e2ac9e153ba3f522f0dff7c0f793e.jpeg)
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lol
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Well, I find making my own rules up to be quite fun! That way, you are always playing something you want to play! lol
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The issue I have with buckets of dice is that it is slow. You have to count out the correct number of dice, roll them, retrieve the ones that went on the floor because the player didn’t roll them in a box. Then count the hits, then probably roll saves. It is slow compared to an opposed dice roll
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Buckets if dice can be OK as long as it doesn’t get too big. Dragon Rampant is good because it is always 12 or 6 dice for combat and is resolved with no other rolls
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Easy E,
It's a lovely notion to be able to make my own rules. However Mrs TSG's is a Yorkshire Lass and an East Riding one at that. I've more chances of winning the lottery. Than running such a notion past here.That having put a 14 hour day in making toys for other people. I'm now going to ignore her and put pen to paper to write about how to play them. When I've just bought a set of rules and have been mumbling through as bed time reading. :o
I've absolutely no doubt it would result in my photo on the side of milk cartons .
I have limited myself to one old coffee jar of D6. Even then I'd have cold sweats if someone poured them all out and said that should just about do. lol
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Here is a challenge you probably don't want... but I would love to see a system where everything that is resolved by die rolls, whether it be Morale, Commands/Orders, shooting, Melee is resolved on 2 dice added together (2D6 or 2D10, doesn't matter), or possibly 3 dice to get that lovely bell curve. Mersey's LR/PL/R&P comes close except for combat. Could even be opposed rolls.
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Here is a challenge you probably don't want... but I would love to see a system where everything that is resolved by die rolls, whether it be Morale, Commands/Orders, shooting, Melee is resolved on 2 dice added together (2D6 or 2D10, doesn't matter), or possibly 3 dice to get that lovely bell curve. Mersey's LR/PL/R&P comes close except for combat. Could even be opposed rolls.
I've always found it interesting that a lot of smaller model/stand/element/unit/whatever else count games love to use 2 or 3 dice to generate results, but rank and flank almost always avoid doing it that way. I guess having too wide a range of values slows things down.
As for the work of counting out hits, re-rolling them, and counting out wounds, I am surprised that no company has made dice that combine color coding with the pips to make them easier to sort. Something like the 1 is red, 2 is orange, 3 is yellow, 4 is green, 5 is blue, and 6 is violet or pink or silver or something. I'm sure alternatives could be developed for color-blind players, too. I know some people have an easier time sorting by color than by number, and "remove the reds and oranges" might be easier than "remove the 1s and 2s."
One thing that often happens in the Kings of War community is that if a particularly nasty charge is made that would result in rolling enough dice to potentially remove a unit from the table, players will often agree to simplify things. I know when I once goofed and left a unit open to a 48-die rear charge from a unit that hit on 4+, I did the mental math and realized the only way I'd survive is with a roll of 2 on the nerve check. I told my opponent they could just skip to that since the odds were astronomically small of my unit surviving and I just wanted to keep the game moving.