Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: Ethelred the Almost Ready on April 21, 2022, 07:48:19 AM
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I have been reading Christian Cameron’s Chivalry series of books (1350s and 60s set in France and Italy, but also cover the Alexandrian Crusade and the Savoyard Crusade in the Balkans). As often happens when I read historical novels, I start to think about how to base a wargame around them. It is a period about which I have only very basic knowledge.
I was thinking about a game with a low number of figures – possibly as low as 3 or 4 a side up to 20 or 30 per side. Are there any rules that will manage this range in figures? I would quite like to have distinct characters for the leaders. In other words, I need something that allows for individuals and small units/groups to be managed as well as having some individualisation of my “heroes and villains”.
In the books the typical organisation is a lance of 3 or 4 men – a man-at-arms, a squire and/or an archer and a page. These are mostly figures that are easy to find, but finding a page seems difficult. Would they have worn armour at all? Are there any miniatures ranges that do pages or proxy figures? I would want most figures to have a mounted and unmounted version.
In the books the main characters seem to mainly use long swords and so, presumably don’t use shields. Most figure ranges only have a few long swords for this period and mostly have knights with shields and an arming sword. For the period covered by the books (1350s and 60s) what would have been usual? Or was there a good mix of weapons?
Would the routiers and mercenary bands have caparisoned horses and/or barding? To my mind mostly unbarded horses seem suitable for this level of combat.
The figure ranges I have found that seem appropriate (in 28mm) are: Crusader, Front Line, Claymore Castings, Foundry/Casting Room Miniatures, 1st Corps, V&V, Mirliton . Would the Stradiots from Perry Miniatures be OK for this earlier period? Are there any other miniature lines? I would also like to have some civilians and even some knights not in armour if possible (in their city clothes). These do not seem easy to find – earlier medieval or later Renaissance civilians are easy to find.
If I were to eventually try to cover the Bulkans, Egypt and Turkey, are there any manufacturers who make figures for these nationalities during this period?
Any help is appreciated.
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Given the size and organisation as well as need for historical feel I would strongly suggest Retinue by Tabletop Games - it is an old set of rules but are worth giving a try.
See: https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/24824/retinue-medieval-skirmish-rules/ratings?rated=1
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I was thinking about a game with a low number of figures – possibly as low as 3 or 4 a side up to 20 or 30 per side. Are there any rules that will manage this range in figures? I would quite like to have distinct characters for the leaders.
Reading this, I was going to suggest Ravenfeast, which is Viking-themed, but can easily be repurposed for any pre-gunpowder setting.
However...
I need something that allows for individuals and small units/groups to be managed as well as having some individualisation of my “heroes and villains”.
If you're wanting units to move in groups, rather than individually, I'd actually be tempted to go with Warhammer Fantasy Battle 2nd Edition. It's well suited for managing small units, as well as heroic individuals, and is completely free-form in terms of equipment selection for your units.
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Look at the Fist Full of Lead range (Wiley Games in USA & Oshiro, LAFer, UK)
You can start skirmish level, a few figures a player, which you can easily
customize, then (if you want) move on to more figures use their 'Big Battles'
rules.
The rules are:-
nice & simple, easy to pick up & play, able to be detailed with your view of
what the 'troops' should be like.
The PDF versions are cheap, though I prefer paper.
Here on LAF are quite a few Medieval games that use the rules. Have a look.
https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=121380.msg1521605#msg1521605
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I was going to suggest FFoL too - it is more Hollywood than hard historical - but it gives a great game.
To me a long sword is still single handed. Shields were very much in use in the period you are looking at.
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You could also use brutal quest - Designed for between 1 and 10 minis in a warband BUT you can scale it up by reusing a generic character for your troops/footmen etc.
I was on a bit of an Arthurian romance bender when I wrote it so it has a bit of that baked in.
https://www.wargamevault.com/product/352626/Brutal-Quest--Narrative-skirmish-rules-based-on-the-planet-28-engine
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Lion Rampant using Dragon Rampants unit size rules?
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You can try the Lords & Servants Medieval Skirmish rules.
Described as having "all the information that you need to create your games, from simple clashes involving a few men per side to bigger encounters with 60-80 miniatures per side, ideal for multiplayer games. The book includes 10 generic scenarios"
http://www.dadiepiombo.it/english-lordsandservants.html
If you like the Lord Of The Rings skirmish rules, then I will suggest the Age of the Trebuchet mod rules. http://xoth.de/_sweetwater/Farnworth%20%20Age%20of%20Treb%20LOTR.pdf
And I also love those books, crunched thru all of them and the Thomas Swan series as well. His fantasy novels are not bad ether, but I preferer his historical fictions.
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As usual I could suggest Argad, if playing with a RPG mind and not competitive at all. :D
the typical organisation is a lance of 3 or 4 men – a man-at-arms, a squire and/or an archer and a page. These are mostly figures that are easy to find, but finding a page seems difficult. Would they have worn armour at all?
A page could probably wear a chainmail, or some gambeson, or light clothes.
Not sure you need one... An armed servant would be present with the knight to help him for everyday life at camp, but this role can be taken by the squire or by the archer, or by an additional mounted sergeant (gros valet or hobelar) armed with a spear or some other staff weapon.
Depending on the nation you could have a crossbowman too, or replacing the archer.
the main characters seem to mainly use long swords and so, presumably don’t use shields. Most figure ranges only have a few long swords for this period and mostly have knights with shields and an arming sword. For the period covered by the books (1350s and 60s) what would have been usual? Or was there a good mix of weapons?
Many would have a two-handed sword or a two-handed axe, to use in big melees against other armoured knights, and their arming sword of course, and they would pass their shield on their back or leave it behind when using the longer weapon. Others, only the arming sword. Too many two-handed weapons would not be practical as they would lack room to use them effectively, also shields were very often needed, they would bring one in any case.
Would the routiers and mercenary bands have caparisoned horses and/or barding?
Probably not... But some large "routes" were led by renowned knights, so you may have exceptions.
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About miniatures you can check Front Rank HYW range. Very nice figures. And you can pick individual figures both mounted and dismounted to have the 2 versions.
And as an idea why dont you check Bertrand Du Guesclin and the war for the possession of the duchy of Brittany. The bigest period of activity was around 1360s and you can pick Du Guesclin and one of the english captains as the 2 forces.
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Thanks for the feedback.
Mammoth Miniatures made me think whether the high medieval version of A Song of Arthur and Merlin might work. I will also take a look at Brutal Quest.
Fistful of Lead has some similarities to Outremer: Faith and Blood. Wrong period but possibly adaptable?????
Lords and Servants looks interesting.
Has anyone used Feudal Patrol or Chevauche? I am unsure whether the card mechanism for the former may become a bit of a nuisance in a big game.
Thanks Patrice for the advice on horses, armour and weapons.
And thanks to all the rest of you for taking time to reply.
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Also, mid-14th century French "lances" were not standardized at all (much less than the English ones which had to cross the sea). The man-at-arms would come with a few men available in his manor, could be 5-6 armed with spears or crossbows. And there were many very poor nobility, who would come with bad equipment, or serve as squire under their local knight.
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Though a little earlier in history have a look at Outremer: Faith and Blood from Osprey (here (https://ospreypublishing.com/store/osprey-games/osprey-wargames/outremer-faith-and-blood))
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Barons War might fit the bill. Has characters and groups of plebs. It's set 100 years before but probably not too difficult to port to a slightly later date.
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Look at the Fist Full of Lead range (Wiley Games in USA & Oshiro, LAFer, UK)
You can start skirmish level, a few figures a player, which you can easily
customize, then (if you want) move on to more figures use their 'Big Battles'
rules.
The rules are:-
nice & simple, easy to pick up & play, able to be detailed with your view of
what the 'troops' should be like.
The PDF versions are cheap, though I prefer paper.
Here on LAF are quite a few Medieval games that use the rules. Have a look.
https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=121380.msg1521605#msg1521605 (https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=121380.msg1521605#msg1521605)
Remember a knights game with FFoL some years ago with Captain Blood, Malamute & the Oshiro at BLAM. A wonderful game. It was a small skirmish, you can expand the the game now with FFoL:Big Battle for a bit bigger skirmish. This fact makes the rules very variable and offers new ideas in my view. (The sieg and the follow storm in the castle i.e.)
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As regards figures, I would have thought that, at a squeeze, you could use the Perry Agincourt plastics for the French infantry at the later end of your time period, and some of the FireForge range at the earlier end. FireForge also make a lot of Eastern European stuff for this period as well, plus Templars. Both FireForge and Perry look ok together, too.
Yours,
Ethelred The I'm Nearly Done, Stop Badgering Me Or I'm Going To Forget Something
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Claymore, Antediluvian or old Glory would be my first choices. Perry figures are predominantly post 1400.
For rules, I agree look at Raven Feast.
Cheers
Matt
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Thanks again, everyone.
Fistful of Lead looks like it may do the job. I have the older rules for this but will look at getting the Fantasy set. There seems to be a lot of similarity between FFoL and Outremer: Faith and Blood (I have these rules too). Any preferences for one over the other?
I see the Fantasy version on FFoL has solo rules. Do these work well?
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I only read the outremer-rules. They sounded very interesting, but after reading they were too small for me. The advantage of FFoL is the option of up to ten figures and bigger games with the FFoL:Big Battle. I never used the Solo-rules, but I also expect them to work fine
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I would also suggest looking at Fistful of Lead, but also check out One Hour Skirmish Wargames and Pulp Alley. FfOL is a great game, but does bog down when you get to more than 5 or 6 figures per side.
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Some time ago I played a few rounds of combat using FFoL and did find there was potential to bog down. This may or may not be an issue when I play solo. I have the time to get bogged down, but as a game goes on I usually want to start cutting corners. Playing against one of my friends, getting bogged might depend on who I'm playing against.
I think the mechanisms of FFoL feel better for me than Outremer although I like the character progression of these rules and in that respect potentially more interesting than FFoL.
I will give both sets a try this weekend and perhaps download a few more games.
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Some time ago I played a few rounds of combat using FFoL and did find there was potential to bog down. This may or may not be an issue when I play solo. I have the time to get bogged down, but as a game goes on I usually want to start cutting corners. Playing against one of my friends, getting bogged might depend on who I'm playing against.
I think the mechanisms of FFoL feel better for me than Outremer although I like the character progression of these rules and in that respect potentially more interesting than FFoL.
I will give both sets a try this weekend and perhaps download a few more games.
Maybe the use of the character elements from Outremer in FFoL means you are doing a crusader/midieval-supplement for FFoL and this would be a big thing. Write it down, send it to Jaye and in the end the audience will get a wonderful book for this exciting centuries. I would buy it.
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Hello,
I wrote a free set of rules based around the Lances Fournies (equipped lance). They are called “Retinue”, no relation to the old game (I didn’t know it existed at the time, I just love the word retinue). They are a pickup and play type game, I wanted it to be good for “beer-and-pretzels” with non-wargamers but able to expand for campaign play. 3-8 medieval figures per side, with roles for each character.
It may not be what you’re looking for, but it’s free, and may give you ideas to make your own rules! :)
https://brushandbattle.blogspot.com/p/retinue-game.html?m=1