Lead Adventure Forum

Other Stuff => General Wargames and Hobby Discussion => Topic started by: WorkShy on April 27, 2022, 03:07:30 PM

Title: Too high expectations for metal mini manufacturers?
Post by: WorkShy on April 27, 2022, 03:07:30 PM
Hi

Ok so I'm back painting minis after 15-20 years out of the game. Overall bit disappointed with the metal minis in terms of detail but mainly quality control and service really. By comparison, impressed by the progress of plastic minis. Prefer them hugely over metal but unfortunately in my preferred era, late Antiquity and early Medieval, metal is still the way to go. At least until Victrix release those late Romans.

The worst example is Footsore. I really like what they produce and they paint very well. Nonetheless, many of the minis are are unusable. Multiple holes in the pewter, unbelievable amount of flash, broken legs on horses, mold lines you can't easily remove (over faces for example). If I buy a pack of 4 minis, nearly always 1 has major issue but in some cases it's been as bad as 3. Plus delivery times are daft. I've been waiting almost four weeks to get a small £100 order.

Do you complain if you get poor quality minis and service? I have been but I wonder if I'm being unreasonable. Is the correct MO here that you just buy 2-3x what you need and weed out the good ones, using the rest for modding other minis. Just accept the QC is poor and delivery times from some companies are terrible. 

My feeling is that wargaming/mini painting as a hobby is dirt cheap compared to pretty much anything else I do. For example, if I buy a gaming PC it's £2-3k for the PC and another £1-2k for the monitors etc. I'm really not price sensitive. I just want high quality, delivered quickly but that seems hard to achieve.



Title: Re: Too high expectations for metal mini manufacturers?
Post by: Tym on April 27, 2022, 03:39:48 PM
Never had that issue with Footsore but have with other manufacturers.  Do feel that some times I just order at the wrong time just before the mold dies!
Title: Re: Too high expectations for metal mini manufacturers?
Post by: Inkpaduta on April 27, 2022, 05:09:26 PM
I can't say I agree about quality of metal figures.
All my figures are metal and I have encountered the
problems that you have. I think the quality is getting
better (IMHO).
Title: Re: Too high expectations for metal mini manufacturers?
Post by: Elbows on April 27, 2022, 05:26:49 PM
I've had bad products in most materials.  Probably more with resin figures than any other material.

I have a hobby blog that no one reads, but I don't post negative content generally speaking - some of the resin "disasters" I've received have pushed me to post about them, they're that bad.

I do find a vast array of metals can vary immensely in simple quality from botht he sculpting side and the production side.  Some recent metal miniatures are simply sublime, namely those who take the time to digital sculpt and get a quality master done up.  Knuckleduster Miniatures for instances are some of the cleanest, nicest metal miniatures I've ever seen.

I will add a caveat though; as a hobby...I find (as with most hobbies) that wargamers are pretty generous and supportive when it comes to small manufacturers, even if their quality or sculpting is not on par with a lot of other companies.
Title: Re: Too high expectations for metal mini manufacturers?
Post by: armchairgeneral on April 27, 2022, 06:00:10 PM
Can’t say I have had many problems with metals. The only recent one I can think of was with Footsore. Their Richard Lionheart figure was missing the separate arm it comes with. Once I emailed them a photo they soon had another one in the post to me.

As for plastic late Romans, don’t you like GB?

https://www.grippingbeast.co.uk/GBP24_Plastic_Roman_SAGA_Starter_4_point--product--5916.html
Title: Re: Too high expectations for metal mini manufacturers?
Post by: fred on April 27, 2022, 06:14:19 PM
I’ve seen the odd miscast figure - but at much much lower frequency than you are seeing.

At that frequency I’d certainly be going back to let the manufacturer know and be asking for replacements.

As too speed of delivery a few weeks can be common where manufacturers are casting to order.
Title: Re: Too high expectations for metal mini manufacturers?
Post by: tikitang on April 27, 2022, 06:19:58 PM
I'm not a wide collector of miniatures, but of all the ones I've bought in my brief time in this hobby, the only metal ones I've had any problems with at all have been Newline Designs, where they all came on wonky bases, which were good for nothing except to be cut/sawed off, which took an extraordinary amount of effort.

Metal is my favourite miniature medium; I'm extremely reluctant to use anything else, and all the newer ones I've had the pleasure to work with (such as Bob Murch's Pulp Figures, for example) are absolutely top-notch in terms of casting quality.
Title: Re: Too high expectations for metal mini manufacturers?
Post by: WorkShy on April 28, 2022, 07:35:40 AM
Never had that issue with Footsore but have with other manufacturers.  Do feel that some times I just order at the wrong time just before the mold dies!
I do get a feeling with some of the Footsore late romans I've ordered this is exactly the problem. My timing is immaculate as normal!

As for plastic late Romans, don’t you like GB?
https://www.grippingbeast.co.uk/GBP24_Plastic_Roman_SAGA_Starter_4_point--product--5916.html

I don't mind their late roman cavalry and find it useful to mix parts from different sprues. I've bashed out some quite tolerable armoured horse archers from mixing the light cav with heavy cav. The infantry though seem really quite poor. I've bought a few Victrix sprues (clearly not late Roman) and the difference in quality is huge. To be fair to GB though, the Victrix stuff was produced almost a decade later.

The issue with Footsore is they don't seem at all responsive. I had to ask more than once for poor quality minis to be replaced. They gave excuses like they are a small business. How is that my problem? Plus they blame slow orders on some Kickstarter. Again not my issue. I'm going to end up spending a fe hundred month on minis for the next few years to build up my collection, I want the suppliers to actually provide a high quality product and good service. I don't want to have to send packs back, write emails etc. Perhaps my order sizes are just too small for them to care.

By comparison, I don't like the Warlord minis as much as Footsore but when I deal with them they are hugely responsive even on a tiny £100 order. They happily customize the order and it gets sent out next day.
 
Title: Re: Too high expectations for metal mini manufacturers?
Post by: fred on April 28, 2022, 11:55:15 AM
I don’t think your expectations are unreasonable - nor is a £100 order small.
Title: Re: Too high expectations for metal mini manufacturers?
Post by: NotifyGrout on April 28, 2022, 02:44:04 PM
I can think of three issues with metal models I've had:

1) Malifaux 1st Edition. Got a Crooked Man whose face was a blobby mess. Took a pic, sent it to Wyrd, and they sent me a replacement with no issues.

2) Taban Miniatures. Got a metal version of this model (http://www.taban-miniatures.com/shop2/product_info.php?cPath=25_41_31&products_id=34&osCsid=f10b8d55943dca1a14b96a0dc84fbdd8) back when Game Kastle was FRP Games. I got two left arms. Taban quickly (well, as quickly as overseas shipping will go) sent me a pair of replacements to ensure I had one of each.

3) Zenit Miniatures. This one is a bummer, because the sculpts are nice (the undead samurai and bushi are really cool), but the ones I got as part of a Kickstarter were a nightmare to assemble, with several tiny parts that didn't fit into their intended spaces clearly. I'd still like to revisit their Kensei rulebook in the future, but it will be with someone else's models.

Title: Re: Too high expectations for metal mini manufacturers?
Post by: eilif on April 28, 2022, 02:54:55 PM
I don’t think your expectations are unreasonable - nor is a £100 order small.
Agree completely. With the issues Workshy experienced, I'd expect replacements from the company shipped at no charge.

We're participating in a hobby where goods are often produced, packed and sold by the same crew.  Every company has duds slip through, but if it's happening repeatedly, then you can be fairly sure someone is seeing junk figures and making the conscious decision to pack them anyway and that's not cool.  Even if it's an outside company doing the casting, the owner has the responsibility to not sell faulty figs.
Title: Re: Too high expectations for metal mini manufacturers?
Post by: Ockius on April 29, 2022, 05:02:20 PM
Personally, I don’t mind a little cleaning up of metal figures, as time wise it doesn’t take any longer than cutting and assembling plastic figures does. It definitely depends on the make and even on the exact run of figures and the mould they are from.
For me I would say:
- Exceptionally good metal figures with hardly any cleanup and sharp detail:
- Ral Partha’s Demonworld 15mm (barely a mould line to be seen. Better than any plastic 15mm figure)
- AB Figures Napoleonics
- Xan Miniatures Napoleonics
- Khurasan 15mm

More disappointing (at times) have been-
- Alternative Armies’ 15mm Renaissance stuff. A couple of dodgy throwaway models from that, but other ranges of theirs have been fine.
- Old Glory 15mm Renaissance - pretty nice models really but some ugly chunks of blurry metal in places.


I much prefer metals on the whole, and don’t like digital sculpting at all! I like the handcrafted touch as I think it has more character.
Title: Re: Too high expectations for metal mini manufacturers?
Post by: Gribb on April 30, 2022, 10:45:59 AM
My experience with various companies:

Perry Miniatures. Exceptional sculpting but unfortunately the casting can be a bit underwhelming. That said when I have received miscasts beyond repair I have sent them an email with photos. They are usually very responsive and owe up to it by offering replacements. Not every company does that.

Empress Miniatures. Love the sculpting and casting by Griffin is usually solid. A lot of the ranges are colonial and post 1945 moderns which are not my cup of tea. Love the WW1 range, though. Only once have I received a pack of figures which were poorly casted. So I sent them an email with photos and they agreed to send a replacement. Which I would receive the next time I placed an order.. That was rather disappointing.

Eagles of Empire Miniatures. Excellent sculpting by Ebob. The sculpting is unusual for historical miniatures in a good way. Slender and natural looking anatomy. Superb casting by Griffin. Great communication by the company. Received a couple of figures with broken rifles. Sent an email with photos and the owner immediately sent replacements.
Title: Re: Too high expectations for metal mini manufacturers?
Post by: Cubs on April 30, 2022, 11:20:03 AM
My own thoughts are -

1) If you get the odd nasty cast in an otherwise decent lot, well ... that's the hobby and I'd just clean it up as best I could. If there's a lot of poorly cast models I'd return them and expect a refund (plus my return postage cost) or replacement. A lot of companies won't even bother asking for the return. I think most manufacturers would welcome the feedback that their casters aren't producing an acceptable quality and that they've missed it in their own quality control. It happens.

2) Communication is key. I expect an answer within 24-48hrs if I've emailed or messaged the company in question, even if it's just an acknowledgement of the receipt of my communication and they will be dealing with it as soon as possible. Yes, spring is always a very busy time for companies with new ranges and shows, so I expect delays, but a quick courtesy reply to let me know they're on it is expected and appreciated.

3) There's a lot of choice and the market will often force a company to either provide good service or go out of business. The customer dictates success for any business and the days of being able to run a hobby business like a hobby are over. So long as you are courteous and reasonable in your expectations, you shouldn't feel guilty for insisting on getting a good product for your money. Any business that wants or deserves to keep getting your money will listen to your concerns.
Title: Re: Too high expectations for metal mini manufacturers?
Post by: eilif on April 30, 2022, 11:24:14 AM
Was just havering a similar discussion on another forum and this....
My experience with various companies:

They are usually very responsive and owe up to it by offering replacements. Not every company does that....

...they agreed to send a replacement. Which I would receive the next time I placed an order.. That was rather disappointing.
... seems to be the big division between many companies' customer service. Boiled down, the fundamental difference is often simply that:

-Some make it right.
-Others wait for you to make another order before making it right.

One method benefits the customer, one benefits the dealer.  I'd rather support the company that doesn't dump the costs of their own mistakes back on their customers.

Title: Re: Too high expectations for metal mini manufacturers?
Post by: Codsticker on May 10, 2022, 03:58:32 AM
... I don't post negative content generally speaking - some of the resin "disasters" I've received have pushed me to post about them, they're that bad.
Same. Generally though, I am quite happy with figures and terrain that I get even if there is the occasional issue.
Title: Re: Too high expectations for metal mini manufacturers?
Post by: WorkShy on May 10, 2022, 10:02:20 AM
Just an update. Got my most recent order from Footsore last week. The mini sculpts are lovely as before. This order was better in that there was nothing broken or totally unusable (big holes in the casting etc).

It's taken me a long while to tidy them up given a very large amount of flash. Also some of the Late Roman castings are disappointing in terms of where the mold lines actually are. I'm finding is damned hard to remove big mold lines over an eye or over mail armour without damaging detail. It feels like the Late Roman moulds may be at the end of their lifespan.

Must admit my reentry into historical wargaming may be rather brief since the quality I want (even at a higher price) really isn't there for my historical period. I feel Footsore is probably still as good as it gets. Problem is, in the time it takes to clean up the minis, prime them, paint, base etc, I can mod loads of 3dsMax files for Total War and have a whole new roster of legions in 4K with no compromises. Perhaps I come back when I can 3d print those 3dsMax models!
Title: Re: Too high expectations for metal mini manufacturers?
Post by: FramFramson on May 10, 2022, 03:01:11 PM
Mould lines running directly across faces ought to be banned by Imperial Decree.

I mean, honestly!
Title: Re: Too high expectations for metal mini manufacturers?
Post by: majorsmith on May 10, 2022, 06:44:12 PM
I work full time as a caster of figures, I always check the casting prior to putting them in trays ready for bagging, they are checked again for orders then again during the bagging and blistering process, if somethings not up to par it’s put immediately on to a remake, usually the turnaround is quick, but there’s no excuse to cast figures using a crappy old mould really, any castings with mould lines on faces are instantly rejected and melted down, your always going to get figures that a need a bit of a clean up I think that’s part of the fun of model making, but hard flash, rips etc are not acceptable at all
Title: Re: Too high expectations for metal mini manufacturers?
Post by: Diablo Jon on May 11, 2022, 11:15:20 AM
I've been on a major retro kick buying up quite a lot on 1980s lead recently. While I absolutely love these old miniatures becuase of the retro charm, the character and nostalgia for my youth. It's pretty clear modern metal stuff is way ahead in terms of quality things have certainly improved as far as casting, alloy used and design, though I'd say sometimes at the loss of character and charm, compared to 1980s minis.

I kind of feel the same about 3d printed stuff. I took a punt a couple of times on printed plastic stuff and wasn't impressed,though I hear better things about printed resin, which just put me of the whole idea.
Title: Re: Too high expectations for metal mini manufacturers?
Post by: LeadAsbestos on May 11, 2022, 01:17:37 PM
Just an update. Got my most recent order from Footsore last week. The mini sculpts are lovely as before. This order was better in that there was nothing broken or totally unusable (big holes in the casting etc).

Must admit my reentry into historical wargaming may be rather brief since the quality I want (even at a higher price) really isn't there for my historical period. I feel Footsore is probably still as good as it gets.

Dont let Footsore ruin historicals for you! They have pretty major issues for the boutique prices they charge. I'm crazy for the Gangs of Rome range, but it is a complete crap-shoot if you get a bunch of poorly cast minis with holes, etc, if you get a response to an email, some of their sculpts are gorgeous and some are complete crap, etc.

I understand they are a small operation, but a simple response goes a long way. Plenty of great companies out there. I'll also keep going to Footsore, love what they are doing and want to support, but they could certainly benefit from dedicated attention to customer service.
Title: Re: Too high expectations for metal mini manufacturers?
Post by: WorkShy on May 11, 2022, 01:37:16 PM
Thanks for the replies.

I've bought 2 packs of some of the minis and, in each pack, the same minis have the same mould line over the eye. I asked for a new pack in one case but I can't be bothered for every order. I'm only paying £6 for a pack of 4 minis. I don't feel that is at all expensive. I'd just prefer to pay more and get minis where poor castings have been rejected. Yes, in a unit of 24 infantry, you are going to have to look closely to notice (especially given my poor painting skills!), but I know it's there. 

It's not just Footsore though. I've bought some Romano-British cavalry from Warlord (Colin Patten scuplts). One of the horses only had tack on one side. It was blank on the other side! Yet an identical horse in the same pack was fine. Same issues with some Gripping Beast.  I just think someone should actually check the castings before sending.

I know as a newbie I'm not meant to moan. When I complain, the companies all say they are small hobby businesses and they don't have the staff etc. I've already spent about £1k on minis in 3 months over a few companies, willing to do that over and over. Late 40s, loads of disposable income, not price sensitive (but time sensitive). Potentially an ideal customer but they need to deliver a quality product and not give excuses. The companies seem to lack ambition to be more successful.
Title: Re: Too high expectations for metal mini manufacturers?
Post by: zemjw on May 11, 2022, 03:07:55 PM
I've bought 2 packs of some of the minis and, in each pack, the same minis have the same mould line over the eye. I asked for a new pack in one case but I can't be bothered for every order. I'm only paying £6 for a pack of 4 minis. I don't feel that is at all expensive. I'd just prefer to pay more and get minis where poor castings have been rejected. Yes, in a unit of 24 infantry, you are going to have to look closely to notice (especially given my poor painting skills!), but I know it's there. 

One of the worst mold slippage castings I have ever received was from Reaper, made worse by the fact that the mold line cut across the face. That was probably £5.00 for the single figure. I did eventually file and cut it back to the point where it was usable. However, it cooled me on buying their figures for quite a while.

I recently received a resin armoured vehicle that has so many problems with it I'll either have to cover it with tarps or paint it up as a wreck. I won't be buying from that company again any time soon.

You'd think companies would realise that sloppy qa is going to cost them, but some of them just don't :(
Title: Re: Too high expectations for metal mini manufacturers?
Post by: Daeothar on May 12, 2022, 07:32:45 AM
One of the worst ones I ever had was a GW Space Marine metal scout, from a box that had been a birthday gift from my mother. I discovered just how bad it was after priming them. I had cleaned them, obviously, but only when the metal sheen was gone, did I find out that the face had been completely distorted!

Now, normally, one would go to a GW store, and demand a replacement. But this one was bought about a year before I started working on them at the FLGS, the receipt was long gone and I was under a deadline.

So I took it in stride and repurposed the hideous mouldline as a hideous scar lol

I must have done something right though, as I entered the squad in the UKGD that year and they became a finalist entry...
Title: Re: Too high expectations for metal mini manufacturers?
Post by: Codsticker on May 15, 2022, 04:14:23 PM
Mould lines running directly across faces ought to be banned by Imperial Decree.

I mean, honestly!
That is , actually, a pretty common thing (though not as much lately it seems).
Title: Re: Too high expectations for metal mini manufacturers?
Post by: WorkShy on May 16, 2022, 01:43:18 PM
Dont let Footsore ruin historicals for you! They have pretty major issues for the boutique prices they charge. I'm crazy for the Gangs of Rome range, but it is a complete crap-shoot if you get a bunch of poorly cast minis with holes, etc, if you get a response to an email, some of their sculpts are gorgeous and some are complete crap, etc.
I understand they are a small operation, but a simple response goes a long way. Plenty of great companies out there. I'll also keep going to Footsore, love what they are doing and want to support, but they could certainly benefit from dedicated attention to customer service.
Yes, I just think Footsore don't really have the staff to support their large product range. Compared to Warlord Games, say, the customer service is polite but very slow. They seem totally bogged down in the last few months by some Kickstarter for Medieval Welsh minis. It does seem that Barons War products (which I have precisely zero interest in) is their main interest now.

I'll just have to put up with it. Hopefully the eventual release of the Victrix Late Roman plastic range makes this issue obsolete.
Title: Re: Too high expectations for metal mini manufacturers?
Post by: Kommando_J on May 20, 2022, 08:33:38 PM
Mould lines running directly across faces ought to be banned by Imperial Decree.

I mean, honestly!

Indeed, or ones going right down a bit of detailing that cant be filed!

But for real, ive had footsore problems, their anglican league command, both smg's barrels were woeful but that was a while, lately ive had problems with warlord, I just ask for a replacement and out it down tot heir staff being probably overworked.

I feel less guilty when its a big company im getting replacements off lol.
Title: Re: Too high expectations for metal mini manufacturers?
Post by: Duncan McDane on June 06, 2022, 11:11:30 AM
It might be that Footsore has grown significantly the last 2-3 years, so they might struggle to keep up. The models I got from them ( or bought 2nd hands ) are good quality sculpts, no pits in metal ( which fill in easily with wall filler btw ) or miscasts.
I prefer metal 1 piece castings btw over plastic - I really hate the cleaning and building/posing of it because unless you're a good converter they still look like constructs - apart from the obvious limitations of the stuff. Resin I'm ok with but slid mold halves can be a pain in the ass to fix. But I came in the hobby when metal was almost the only medium there was so I might be prejudiced ;-).
Cleaning can be done with a small file, that works best with the leadfree stuff imho. But yes, the tendency of getting movement in figs will get moldlines in the most nasty places. To me, if possible, the frontal view must be moldline free, at least with human/humanid figs. I accept it's impossible with horses but by cleaning those up you're less likely to ruin any detail.
Bad castings happen, double moldlines, slid mold halves, miscasts etc but with a bit of practice it usually can be fixed. It all depends on the model; a 15 UKpounds fig should ne flawless. a 2 pounds mass produces fig, yeah, I accept it when the mold used isn't the newest of the new anymore. But quality control, I know, it is extra overhead for the manufacturer but it sometimes could be done a bit better. Nothing as frustrating as sending out the wrong figures, that's just a question of sorting and checking. Even it my order is the 50th that day.
Ah well, we all have our preferences.
Title: Re: Too high expectations for metal mini manufacturers?
Post by: SJWi on June 06, 2022, 11:21:09 AM
I must admit it is some years since I bought from Footsore and I didn't have a problem with mould lines etc etc . My big gripe were "solid" hands which needed drilling out to take a spear, but ironically proved to be a more robust gaming model. On this topic I will give a big shout-out for Aventine Miniatures . Not only are they beautiful figures, but are reasonably priced and the mould quality excellent. Customer service is second-to-none, with Keith the owner even answering a query I had on a Sunday morning. Companies like this deserve our full support.
Title: Re: Too high expectations for metal mini manufacturers?
Post by: eilif on June 06, 2022, 11:57:12 AM
Just an update. Got my most recent order from Footsore last week. The mini sculpts are lovely as before. This order was better in that there was nothing broken or totally unusable (big holes in the casting etc).

It's taken me a long while to tidy them up given a very large amount of flash. Also some of the Late Roman castings are disappointing in terms of where the mold lines actually are. I'm finding is damned hard to remove big mold lines over an eye or over mail armour without damaging detail. It feels like the Late Roman moulds may be at the end of their lifespan.

Must admit my reentry into historical wargaming may be rather brief since the quality I want (even at a higher price) really isn't there for my historical period. I feel Footsore is probably still as good as it gets. Problem is, in the time it takes to clean up the minis, prime them, paint, base etc, I can mod loads of 3dsMax files for Total War and have a whole new roster of legions in 4K with no compromises. Perhaps I come back when I can 3d print those 3dsMax models!
First of all, it's rightfully disappointing that you're paying a premium for figures and still getting figures that "arent' totally unuseable" and with "mold line over an eye".  No need to convince yourself otherwise.

Secondly, I think you've really got your finger on the crux of the current status of miniatures.  There seem to be some companies that believe that if they are one of the few producers of a specific subject a particular scale/quality/etc, they can carry on with business as usual producing figures with flaws that might have been acceptable a decade or so ago, but really are not acceptable today.
If indeed the molds are nearing the end of their life, one wonders if the sculpts will be abandoned or if there will be an attempt to make new molds without the line-over-eye issue and similar problems.

Unfortunately for these sorts of companies (though fortunately for players) plastics are becoming much cheaper and more common and your point about 3d printing is right on.   Resin printing is dropping in cost fast as entrepreneurs setup printing farms and if designed right resing figures can avoid many of the casting issues of metal figures.   Many of these metal companies may find soon their customers turning to resin prints to get a superior figure for a lower price.

Best of luck whatever you decide to do for figure sourcing in the future.

Title: Re: Too high expectations for metal mini manufacturers?
Post by: Duncan McDane on June 06, 2022, 12:23:50 PM
About the "premium"-part. I just checked on Footsore and a rank and file model is 2 UKP, a character on foot 4 UKP.
Let's be honest, that isn't premium pricing ( no, I'm not affiliated with them nor am I in the business, just an avid collector ), not even for historicals which tend to be a lot cheaper than their fantasy/sci fi counterparts. The guys should be able to make a living too, yes?
Title: Re: Too high expectations for metal mini manufacturers?
Post by: N.C.S.E on June 06, 2022, 01:02:39 PM
All this stuff about the slow decline of metals makes for grim reading.

In my strictly personal opinion I honestly cannot stomach plastics and find them miserable and dissatisfying to paint. A lot of the stuff offered for 3D printing (with a few remarkable exceptions) meanwhile I find soulless with every pose obviously hacked out in an afternoon from a single T-posed original. A very few 3d sculpted figures manage to pull off what the hand sculpted ones continue to do effortlessly. I understand why we're moving away from metals but still - it'll be a sad day when metals are left behind.  :'(
Title: Re: Too high expectations for metal mini manufacturers?
Post by: Elbows on June 06, 2022, 04:47:16 PM
I think that's kind of sugar-coating it though.  There are plenty of excellent metals which are 3D designs now, simply printed and then put into metal.

There are heaps of awful metal miniatures out there.  Some people write it off as "character", but there are numerous metal companies that I can't believe stay in business.  I'd argue there are just as many awful metal designs/sculpts as there are 3D, digital, or plastic.

I use everything, as I enjoy buying one-piece metal minis for fantasy gaming, etc.  I use plastics, and plenty of 3D printed stuff as well.  I even use resin...my least favourite gaming material.

The issue here though, seems to be a crappy final product.  That's inexcusable, regardless of the material, short of buying a bag of 50 toy soldiers at the dollar-store, or some such.
Title: Re: Too high expectations for metal mini manufacturers?
Post by: Ray Rivers on June 06, 2022, 11:53:05 PM
A lot of the stuff offered for 3D printing (with a few remarkable exceptions) meanwhile I find soulless with every pose obviously hacked out in an afternoon from a single T-posed original.

I dunno...

Have you seen Berndi's "Predator - Start of a long term project?"

https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=136951.msg1741398#msg1741398

Those are some smashing minis. I also googled up STLs by Papsikel and there are some tremendous sculpts.

3D printing still has a long way to evolve, but I think one day you will be able to print minis with a metal medium of that is what you want.
Title: Re: Too high expectations for metal mini manufacturers?
Post by: Fighting15s on June 07, 2022, 02:01:21 PM
It's pretty clear modern metal stuff is way ahead in terms of quality things have certainly improved as far as casting, alloy used and design, though I'd say sometimes at the loss of character and charm, compared to 1980s minis.

Casting technology has improved surprisingly little since the 1980s. Many miniatures businesses use what are quite ancient machines, yet produce exceptionally good results. There are operators who are interested in how their machines work and will get the best out of them; there are others who just pour metal and hope. Compressor machines have done a lot to simplify the process for operators, but in themselves they are not the means to better castings. I'd like to think the push-button technology promised by the Siocast plastic injection moulding process eliminated operator error, but judging from every Siocast casting I have seen, mould lines can be an issue.

Moulds have changed, but black rubber still has attractions over silicone because it's half the price for a pair of blanks. While I feel that silicone offers better dimensional stability and makes it much easier to lay out a mould, the allure of traditional black rubber means that you're getting figures produced the same way as they have been since the 1980s and earlier. Some of the worst black rubber moulds in my collection come from quite well known casting operations.

Alloys haven't changed. I did metallurgy and materials technology as a degree in the early 1980s. Tin-lead alloys were all pretty much worked out as to what combinations were viable way back then. There are minor changes to compositions to improve flow or other characteristics, but it's not ground-breaking stuff. What is an issue is businesses that use any old metal they get rather than a tried and tested alloy: poor metal mixes result in sinks and voids, or poor surface finish. It's why in general businesses don't accept scrap figures to remelt, because the results are not reliable. Do some of today's manufacturers still use any old metal they can? Yes.

As for design, there are still sculptors who use too thin a wire for spears, make weak connections for bayonets, design masters that crack under pressure and leave tiny gaps for rubber to get into, creating a weakness in the casting, and so on.

What might be argued is that 40 years on, some people producing figures have become more experienced at knowing what works and just have better practices. There are also people with decades of experience who have learned nothing.
Title: Re: Too high expectations for metal mini manufacturers?
Post by: WorkShy on June 07, 2022, 04:52:17 PM
On this topic I will give a big shout-out for Aventine Miniatures . Not only are they beautiful figures, but are reasonably priced and the mould quality excellent. Customer service is second-to-none, with Keith the owner even answering a query I had on a Sunday morning. Companies like this deserve our full support.
I'd agree with that. Aventine have been an exception. It's a shame that much of their Byzantine range is too late in period to be used as Late Romans.

About the "premium"-part. I just checked on Footsore and a rank and file model is 2 UKP, a character on foot 4 UKP.
Let's be honest, that isn't premium pricing ( no, I'm not affiliated with them nor am I in the business, just an avid collector ), not even for historicals which tend to be a lot cheaper than their fantasy/sci fi counterparts. The guys should be able to make a living too, yes?
As I said earlier in the thread, I'd happily pay 2-3x the cost for a miniature in perfect condition. That option simply doesn't exist. Hence my initial view that do I just need to order everything twice and dump 50% of the minis in the bin!

With Footsore, I'm typically buying via their Warband bundle (effective 25% discount) and also getting another 20% discount on top of that for ordering over £100 on each order. I'm effectively buying rank-and-file infantry for £1.20 and cavalry for £2. Characters and other specials are £2-£4/mini. At this point, I've spent around £500 on minis in the last 3 months. That has got me around 125 infantry and 75 cavalry. Treating cavalry as 2 infantry, I'm paying an average of less than £1.8/mini. Total amount spent is around £1200, including all paints/primers, brushes, magnets, decals/bases/tufts etc. So the minis are only 40% of the cost anyway. Double the price of the minis, I wouldn't care at all.

The issue for me is time not money. I've tracked my painting and it takes me about 30mins/infantry and 60mins/cavalry when done on a production line basis. If it takes me 30mins/mini to fill in the pock marks, file down globs of pewter and get rid of mould lines, that's just halved my productivity. I'm trying to get a decent amount of minis on the table. After 3 months, I've only got 120 infantry and 60 cavalry actually done. I have a full time job.

It's sort of obvious. The better the mini quality is, the less time it takes me to complete, the more I will buy. More profit for the manufacturer. This is also why it's barmy they takes 4 weeks to deliver a £100 order. Effectively, they are just reducing the amount I will spend with them. Their excuse was a £42k kickstarter that had to be delivered. If your business is bottlenecked for a month by a trivial order of £42k, you really need to look at your business model. Honestly, I've looked at the accounts of the some of these historical mini manufacturers on CH and I really don't know where they think they are going. They are hobby businesses in more ways that one.
Title: Re: Too high expectations for metal mini manufacturers?
Post by: Duncan McDane on June 08, 2022, 11:03:22 AM
So you are buying them in bulk or on offer ( so they are even cheaper , so more people do the same so even more wear on the molds) and still are expecting them to deliver fully to your expectations?
Come on, they cannot run a business model simply on your expectations or your painting speed alone.
Really...
Title: Re: Too high expectations for metal mini manufacturers?
Post by: WorkShy on June 08, 2022, 12:47:51 PM
I'm buying 40-50 minis per order (so 1 order each month for £80 with their 20% discount). That's hardly bulk buying. I have to assume most orders are far far larger than that. I'm wondering if the reason it takes so long is because the order is too small for them to care.

Their pricing hasn't changed in all those months, so this is not some special deal. That's their pricing model. End of.

I don't expect them to run any business based on my expectations. I do expect the product not to be broken, pitted, with mould lines over the eyes and globs of pewter all over the place. I don't expect to have to fix their production issues on 25% of the order. It shouldn't take days to get hold of them. They shouldn't then excuse the problem by whining they are a small business and too busy. Not my problem. If they can whine so can I. Their sculpts are excellent but, frankly, their production, delivery and attitude is shoddy.
Title: Re: Too high expectations for metal mini manufacturers?
Post by: Westfalia Chris on June 08, 2022, 08:47:10 PM
I guess that sums up your grievances, and I'm afraid there won't be a ready solution for the issue(s) at hand. In order not to escalate this to really unpleasant levels, it is probably best to lock the thread at this juncture.