Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: MaleGriffin on June 09, 2022, 01:20:07 AM
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I'm collecting both sides for the WOTR and I need to choose which Noble retinues to paint.
I'd like to use decals for livery badges (my eyes and the steadiness of my hands are shot) but Dom seems to be out of business and although Citadel Six has fantastic variety, the price is rather dear for what I have in mind. I could go with one from each faction, but where's the fun in that.
I want to field a variety of livery colors including murrey and tenné.
I tried looking at the most active nobles, one of whom was Sir John Conyers of Hornby, who participated in seven battles (First St Albans (Y). Blore Heath (Y). Northampton (Y). Towton (Y). Edgecote (L). Barnet (L). Bosworth (Y)) and even though he participated in more battles than virtually anyone else, unless I missed something, he isn't represented by Citadel Six.
I'm not a WOTR scholar, so I am unfamiliar with the personal rivalries or other factors that might make for interesting matchups.
So who do you think are the best five nobles from the Lancastrians and five from the Yorkists to collect?
Any advice is appreciated,
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Everyone always wants to see the Percies and the Nevilles on the field.
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The Stanleys, but that is just me sitting on the fence. lol lol lol
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OK, my advice for a beginner would be to go to the Lance and Longbow Society shop and buy all of these booklets:
Battles Section:
Pub-019- The Battle of Barnet 1471 38.00
Pub-020- The Battle of Bosworth 1485 £6.50
Pub-022- The Battle of Towton 1461 £6.00
Pub-029- The Battle of Tewkesbury 1471£8.50
Next go to the Heraldry section and buy all of these booklets:
Pub-001 Heraldic Banners of the Wars of the Roses Vol.1 A-H £10.00
Pub-002 Heraldic Banners of the Wars of the Roses Vol.2 H-R £10.00
Pub-003 Heraldic Banners of the Wars of the Roses Vol.3 S-Y £10.00
Pub-004 Standards, Badges & Livery Colours of the Wars of the Roses. £10.00
Pub-005 From Knights to Squires - The Gentry & Peerage of Towton Vol.1 £8.00
Pub-042 From Knights to Squires - The Gentry & Peerage of Towton Vol.2 £8.00
The Lance and Longbow Society Shop:
https://lanceandlongbow.com/shopPublications.php (https://lanceandlongbow.com/shopPublications.php)
This is going to form the beginning of your research. You can then branch out into more detailed work.
As you can imagine, there is a great deal of literature on the subject. The secret is, like any project, to nail down the basics first.
Hope that helps?
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Little Big Men do some nice livery badges...
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Little Big Men do some nice livery badges...
Ha! Good point Simon! I'd quite forgotten about those!
Citadel Six do livery badges too though I can't speak to their quality as I have never owned any.
Little Big Man Livery Badges:
https://www.littlebigmenstudios.com/product-category/28mm-transfers/wars-of-the-roses/ (https://www.littlebigmenstudios.com/product-category/28mm-transfers/wars-of-the-roses/)
Citadel Six Livery Badges "Lancastrian":
http://www.citadelsix.co.uk/lancs%20livery%20badges.html (http://www.citadelsix.co.uk/lancs%20livery%20badges.html)
Citadel Six Livery Badges "Yorkist":
http://www.citadelsix.co.uk/Yorkist%20Livery%20Badges.html (http://www.citadelsix.co.uk/Yorkist%20Livery%20Badges.html)
I would still advise buying all the Freezywater publications from the Lance and Longbow Society as they will give you an excellent overview of who was at which battle, what their personal Heraldic arms were, their personal Standard (if they have one) and their Livery Banners too.
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For the Lancastrians, there are a few families who were pretty staunch in their loyalties whose livery colours would be useful for a number of battles; the Beauforts, Cliffords and Tudors spring to mind. The Percies too as they can be used for Bosworth.
On the Yorkist side the main ones would probably be Edward IV and the Nevilles (Fauconberg, Salisbury, Warwick). Gloucester/Richard III would also be a good one and you could use white Yorkist roses as livery badges for more mileage. In terms of other nobles, the Howards and Herberts were Yorkist and would do service for multiple battles, as would Lord Hastings
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Thank you all for your responses!
OK, my advice for a beginner would be to go to the Lance and Longbow Society shop and buy all of these booklets:
I was unfamiliar with the Lance and Longbow Society so thank you very much for the suggestions and links.
For the Lancastrians, there are a few families who were pretty staunch in their loyalties whose livery colours would be useful for a number of battles; the Beauforts, Cliffords and Tudors spring to mind. The Percies too as they can be used for Bosworth.
On the Yorkist side the main ones would probably be Edward IV and the Nevilles (Fauconberg, Salisbury, Warwick). Gloucester/Richard III would also be a good one and you could use white Yorkist roses as livery badges for more mileage. In terms of other nobles, the Howards and Herberts were Yorkist and would do service for multiple battles, as would Lord Hastings
Thank you rivers3162! This is exactly the kind of information I'm looking for!Ha! Good point Simon! I'd quite forgotten about those!
Citadel Six do livery badges too though I can't speak to their quality as I have never owned any.
Little Big Man Livery Badges:
https://www.littlebigmenstudios.com/product-category/28mm-transfers/wars-of-the-roses/ (https://www.littlebigmenstudios.com/product-category/28mm-transfers/wars-of-the-roses/)
Citadel Six Livery Badges "Lancastrian":
http://www.citadelsix.co.uk/lancs%20livery%20badges.html (http://www.citadelsix.co.uk/lancs%20livery%20badges.html)
Citadel Six Livery Badges "Yorkist":
http://www.citadelsix.co.uk/Yorkist%20Livery%20Badges.html (http://www.citadelsix.co.uk/Yorkist%20Livery%20Badges.html)
I would still advise buying all the Freezywater publications from the Lance and Longbow Society as they will give you an excellent overview of who was at which battle, what their personal Heraldic arms were, their personal Standard (if they have one) and their Livery Banners too.
Are these decals or paper banners? If the badges are decals, do the standards/banners work like decals and stick to themselves or like traditional paper flags that you cut out and glue together?
Once again I appreciate the advice!
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Thank you all for your responses!
I was unfamiliar with the Lance and Longbow Society so thank you very much for the suggestions and links.
Thank you rivers3162! This is exactly the kind of information I'm looking for!
Are these decals or paper banners? If the badges are decals, do the standards/banners work like decals and stick to themselves or like traditional paper flags that you cut out and glue together?
Little Big Men are rub on decals. I'm not familiar with the Citadel Six but they are definitely decals too.
Once again I appreciate the advice!
No probs. Happy to help :)
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Pete’s Flags are outstanding - only for sale via eBay - but he has a good selection of flag sheets for assorted WOTR nobles. Might not be a bad place to start, if you want your armies to look great under gaily streaming banners and fluttering flags. Pick the lords with the best looking banners! ;)
I also had a wonderful pdf which gave all the known main participants, their active dates and which battles they fought in, and their livery colours. Extremely useful. Except I can’t find it now on my tablet… ::)
But I’m sure someone will know what I’m talking about and furnish the link :)
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Another useful source is the Towton Battlefield website.
https://www.towton.org.uk/research/
There are two lists under the research page, one for all known combatants, and the battles they fought at, and one for the participants at Towton.
The second one is useful as it identifies who fought in which great nobles retinue, so you could theme your knightly choices around a particular nobleman, like Somerset or Northumberland.
If you wanted to include Conyers for example, he was a follower of Warwick, so it might make sense to paint Warwick, and choose another three of his most colourful followers.
I think Warwick is a good choice for the Yorkists. Scrope of Bolton is another pro Warwick survivor who is very active across the decades.
The Percy family is my favoured Lancastrian family, but I would suggest one to consider is Exeter. He survived a surprisingly long time, considering how much everyone seems to have disliked him, and he actually fought on the same side as Warwick at Barnet, if you wanted to combine your forces for a larger game.
Good luck with you research and collecting! It's a great period with lots of interesting characters.
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As well as Lance & Longbow, the Richard III Society website has lots of information about livery and the personalities of the era in free downloadable pdfs. For what it's worth, my 15mm armies are of the Bosworth era, which allows the Cat, the Rat, Lovell our dog and the Hog himself (livery being Sir William Catesby - white; Sir Richard Ratcliffe - white/black; Viscount Lovell - blue/yellow; Richard III - murrey/blue). The later era permits fielding a number of continental mercenary units, including Scots, French, Flemings and early Landsknechts, though the appearance of the pike-armed German mercenaries at Bosworth is a can of worms often debated by wargamers over the years. The advantage of 15mm miniatures, of course, is that the small details of heraldry (badges on the surcoat, for instance) are unnecessary for overall appeal.
Good luck with your WOTR project. I am a staunch Ricardian and so picked units who opposed the despicable, murderous Tudors. It's as good a reason as any.
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PS. Have a look ar 'murreyandblue@wordpress.com' for a very good list of livery colours for many of the bloody participants.
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PS. Have a look ar 'murreyandblue@wordpress.com' for a very good list of livery colours for many of the bloody participants.
Seriously, nearly all the major and minor nobility are listed in the Freezywater books for *all* of the battles. Their Standards, Heraldic Banners and Livery Banners are available. It is s truly invaluable resource if you're into the Wars of the Roses. What's more, they're cheap.
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I’ve used the citadel six livery badges, and they are small decals. They work pretty well, but can be a bit fragile.
I found I used far less then I was expecting, as on my mainly Perry plastics, I found that on lots of figures the spot to but the badge was obscured or blocked. I’d have to have a look at the figures to see what sort of ratio it was, but it was far from 1 front and 1 back per figure.
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For the Lancastrians, there are a few families who were pretty staunch in their loyalties whose livery colours would be useful for a number of battles; the Beauforts, Cliffords and Tudors spring to mind. The Percies too as they can be used for Bosworth.
On the Yorkist side the main ones would probably be Edward IV and the Nevilles (Fauconberg, Salisbury, Warwick). Gloucester/Richard III would also be a good one and you could use white Yorkist roses as livery badges for more mileage. In terms of other nobles, the Howards and Herberts were Yorkist and would do service for multiple battles, as would Lord Hastings
Forgot about the Scrope family too, who were pretty ardent Yorkists, supporting Richard II at Bosworth and even Lincoln in 1487.
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I’ve used the citadel six livery badges, and they are small decals. They work pretty well, but can be a bit fragile.
Do you mind if I ask, are Citadel Six waterslide or rub on Fred?
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Waterslide (I’m pretty sure - its been a while since I used them)
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@Atheling
'Free' beats 'cheap,' mate - particularly when someone is starting out in the era.
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@Atheling
PS. 'Seriously....'
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Once again, thanks for all the advice.
Pete’s Flags are outstanding - only for sale via eBay - but he has a good selection of flag sheets for assorted WOTR nobles. Might not be a bad place to start, if you want your armies to look great under gaily streaming banners and fluttering flags. Pick the lords with the best looking banners! ;)
I also had a wonderful pdf which gave all the known main participants, their active dates and which battles they fought in, and their livery colours. Extremely useful. Except I can’t find it now on my tablet… ::)
I agree about Pete's Flags, but I'm also looking into Little Big Men, Freezywater, CitadelSix because I'd like to do the badges too. I'm even looking into designing and printing my own livery badges.
I'm pretty sure I have the pdf you are talking about and I put it into a spreadsheet so I could manipulate the data i.e. dividing them into Yorkist and Lancastrians or listed by which battles or active at the same period etc.
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I think that the Tawny and Vert (orange and green) looks fantastic on the figures.
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@Atheling
'Free' beats 'cheap,' mate - particularly when someone is starting out in the era.
@Atheling
PS. 'Seriously....'
George, I was merely trying to answer with the best quality response I could manage and make no apology for it.
I stand by my suggestions; I suppose it all depends on how much research one wants to do at the end of the day.
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@Atheling
Given that apart from about 40 of the major participants, livery is unknown, my remark was intended as a quip not a jibe. I am sure we can all think of companies with a product to sell who seek to establish an 'orthodoxy' in a particular area of our great hobby. I am not suggesting that Freezywater do this, but others have and do. I will give the example of Sir Robert Brackenbury, among Richard III's most loyal supporters: by Bosworth he was a captain in the militias of Kent, Gloucestershire and Northamptonshire; he was a body-servant of the King and Constable of the Tower; almost certainly he was also a captain in the City militia as well being entitled to the livery of his family and possibly that of the company of Calais, having served there in his youth. At Bosworth, he might have worn the livery of the lord lieutenant of any of three counties, or royal livery, or the pre-Beefeater livery of the Tower guards, or of whichever City livery company he belonged to; or personal livery or that of Calais (the least likely). Brackenbury was not a knight-banneret and so certainly fought under the royal banner; but what colour to paint his miniature is a field of speculation. I suspect that the lower down the social scale you go, the range of possible liveries increases rather than reduces, since that is the nature of 'bastard feudalism.'
So personal research is really the best way to go, I think, given that your own 'best guess' is more convincing to you than someone else's 'best guess.' I didn't like your 'seriously...' response but I haven't come here for a ruck. No hard feelings, I hope.
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@Atheling
Given that apart from about 40 of the major participants, livery is unknown, my remark was intended as a quip not a jibe. I am sure we can all think of companies with a product to sell who seek to establish an 'orthodoxy' in a particular area of our great hobby. I am not suggesting that Freezywater do this, but others have and do. I will give the example of Sir Robert Brackenbury, among Richard III's most loyal supporters: by Bosworth he was a captain in the militias of Kent, Gloucestershire and Northamptonshire; he was a body-servant of the King and Constable of the Tower; almost certainly he was also a captain in the City militia as well being entitled to the livery of his family and possibly that of the company of Calais, having served there in his youth. At Bosworth, he might have worn the livery of the lord lieutenant of any of three counties, or royal livery, or the pre-Beefeater livery of the Tower guards, or of whichever City livery company he belonged to; or personal livery or that of Calais (the least likely). Brackenbury was not a knight-banneret and so certainly fought under the royal banner; but what colour to paint his miniature is a field of speculation. I suspect that the lower down the social scale you go, the range of possible liveries increases rather than reduces, since that is the nature of 'bastard feudalism.'
Not just Bastard Feudalism but across most of the spectrum of what we think we know about the Late Middle Ages. It's all very much guess work except where we have very clear solid evidence, which is seldom.
So personal research is really the best way to go, I think, given that your own 'best guess' is more convincing to you than someone else's 'best guess.' I didn't like your 'seriously...' response but I haven't come here for a ruck. No hard feelings, I hope.
No none at all. We're all adults here :)
BTW, I would say that personal research, hopefully stretching beyond just the internet, is always the best way to go and certainly the most satisfying. But, going back to Malegriffin's original question, the Freezywater books are the most accessible sources to be starting out with ergo my suggestion :)