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Miniatures Adventure => Age of the Big Battalions => Topic started by: vodkafan on June 30, 2022, 12:16:51 AM
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Anybody got any opinions on Soldiers Of Napoleon rules? I only read about them for the first time today in the July WI, have read all the reviews I can find online, they have piqued my interest.
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Vodkafan, as I only found them myself on the Gripping Beast website yesterday the strict answer to your question is "no". However having looked at the various reviews and U-Tubes online I'm going to give them a punt as (a) Warwick Kinrade has a good reputation as a rule-writer and (b) with the card activation system they are a bit "different". I have several sets of more traditional rules but my gaming group quite like sets that add some "friction" or "fog of war". As one review pointed out people will either love or hate this concept.
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James, keep me informed as to how this goes.
If it gives our Anglo-Portuguese-Spanish a chance
against Digits French Juggernaut I am in. lol
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I too, being a Piquet player of long standing, and a fan of GMT card games to boot, like the look of this.
I have some reservations about the level of play as regards to unit scaling and how it might effect the game if 'battalions' were all the same size. If someone could tell me that starting all units at 'four stands' could work, frankly I'm in.
My difficulty lies in the fact that I game one level above. That is to say I use divisions not brigades and I decide my division strength in units by simply dividing the numbers therein by 1,000. E.g. 4,500 - 5,499 men is five units - no big units no small units, just five the same size units. (cavalry by 500, BTW).
Normally, rules work pretty well regardless of the scale the designer envisaged and I think this might be the case here. With a little imagination, would this work using this set of rules? E.g. Divisions for brigades and one size of 'tactical' unit; or would the game lose something very valuable in not having different sized units.
Advice appreciated.
I play Peninsular.
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Olicana, these are good questions; I did think of your armies when I first read about these rules yesterday.
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...My difficulty lies in the fact that I game one level above. That is to say I use divisions not brigades and I decide my division strength in units by simply dividing the numbers therein by 1,000. E.g. 4,500 - 5,499 men is five units - no big units no small units, just five the same size units. (cavalry by 500, BTW).
Normally, rules work pretty well regardless of the scale the designer envisaged and I think this might be the case here. With a little imagination, would this work using this set of rules? E.g. Divisions for brigades and one size of 'tactical' unit; or would the game lose something very valuable in not having different sized units.
Advice appreciated.
I play Peninsular.
Don't have these rules but think a set that allows different strength units would also work with identical size units. Deciding all your batallions are 1,000 strong, cavalry regiments 500 strong doesn't sound like a huge leap. Interested myself but my crew might rebel at yet another set of rules. I await an AAR.
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Don't have these rules but think a set that allows different strength units would also work with identical size units.
I'm sure they will 'work' with all same size units, why wouldn't they, but would the game lose something of its flavour. I've seen a couple of reviews, and an interview with the author, and variable unit size seems to be a big thing - my question might be better phrased like this:
Would the combats become very samey if all of the units in the game are the same starting strength, or is there enough other variation in the rule system to still make things interesting?
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Those wanting an early AAR can find it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rsnyz9pSLRk
I am very tempted by these rules though, like others, I know my full game group will NOT appreciate a new rule set (having converted them to General d'Armee!)
In both board and the rare tabletop rule set, having to make hard decisions instead of merely advancing is a good feature of this kind of card system. We'll see what kind of "legs" this one has - a bit concerning that the earlier 2 Soldiers of.... systems came and went fairly quickly in terms of availability.
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Hmm. Been following this, and read some reviews, I'm tempted. My group so far plays Black Powder for Napoleonics, but I may have us give this a spin. We'll see...
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Gorillacrab, my mates have also all bought General D'Armee and indeed I bought the rules and token set only 1 month ago. However I see these as something a bit "different" from traditional rules. I think some will love and others hate the card-driven activation. I can see us using both rules for slightly different types of games . As for his other two rulesets, I didn't look at Soldiers of Rome but did have a quick look at the Crusades set .From memory they required a specific basing system that made them a no-no for me, plus they had no big commercial backer. Yes Northstar sold them but no advertising and they were never seen on the Show circuit etc. I think the tie-up with Gripping Beast will make them more widely known.....plus they claim to be "basing agnostic". I've got them on order.
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Wargames Illustrated magazine did a video about the game a month or so ago and the latest magazine issue (July No 415) has an article on the system.
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We've played it a couple of times now. Allowing for us getting used to rules, both games were really fun.
If you've played Sam Mustafa's Maurice or Longstreet or boardgames like Paths of Glory or Combat Commander, then you will be familiar with card driven games, with multiple options on cards. SoN has 3 options on the cards, 'pips', and event or a rally option. A nice mechanism is that if you choose a rally option you give victory points to the opposition.
The 'pip' mechanism takes a bit of getting used to as a player can only do one thing; e.g. shoot or move, but not both.
Most other games allow activated units to do more than one thing, such as move and shoot. So there's a learning curve there, on how best to work the pips.
If you've played Maurice or Longstreet, then you know the power (and sheer joy) of a first fire card, and there's something similar or some card events here. And as a French player in one game, I really enjoyed getting off-table artillery support. Much hilarity for both sides ensues from playing these cards.
A really nice idea to always make the player a division commander and perhaps in the middle of a battle, so that the player can receive support from off-board artillery or a visit from a corps of army commander and perhaps reinforcements.
The game set up was good with players choosing a deployment stance and combat option for their division; i.e. whether to attack, probe or defend (I forget the exact terms now). We really liked this aspect and the limited divisional focus in the middle of a bigger battle.
So I'd say it's a good fun game on a club night. We will play it again, though I don't think it will replace rules like Black Powder that allow a full battle to be played.
If you can afford it and want a fun game, I say give it a try.
Hope this helps,
cheers,
Tom
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The 'pip' mechanism takes a bit of getting used to as a player can only do one thing; e.g. shoot or move, but not both.
Most other games allow activated units to do more than one thing, such as move and shoot. So there's a learning curve there, on how best to work the pips.
We play a lot of Piquet so this will not be a problem for us, and we also play a lot of other card driven games on the table-top - most notably Commands and Colors.
I've decided to take the plunge before all the reviews are in - ordered my copy this morning, before GB sell out (I have a feeling they might, given the hype and buzz).
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SJWi, all the talk about hype and first-edition sellout has roused me to place my order - it will be interesting to follow progress in the weeks that it ships over here to the Dominion...
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TomMcC, thanks for the feedback. Although I haven't got my copy what you have said completely resonates with me having read all the reviews and watched a couple of U-Tubes. With my little gaming group I see these rules as a fun, almost "beer and pretzels" game leaving something like "General D'Armee" for bigger more involved games.
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Just to correct/clarify Tom McC's statement about 'pips': when an Action Card is played on a brigade commander for 'Orders', under a single Order to a unit, an infantry battalion with deployed skirmishers can be given a 'Cautious Advance' Order, which enables it to make a half move and still issue Skirmisher Fire. More importantly, more than one Action Card can be played for Orders on a unit consecutively within the same game turn, albeit at the 'cost' of incurring +1 Disruption . . . so it's all about command decision trade-offs, rather than 'constraints'.
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Thanks, Greystreak.
These rules keep sounding better and better. Can't wait for my set to arrive.
The group of 'Lads' I play with on a weekly basis (The Ilkley Lads) love games where it's the 'in turn decision points' that decide the issue, rather than games that are simply resolved by a series of combat tables, measurement and dice rolling. Indeed, outside of the decision points in a game most things are merely deemed as a necessary evil.
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Got my copy and spent most of yesterday reading it. I've just done a first thoughts review on my blog. Much is about the concerns I had before I read them, concerns now much relieved.
http://olicanalad.blogspot.com/2022/07/soldiers-of-napoleon-first-read-through.html (http://olicanalad.blogspot.com/2022/07/soldiers-of-napoleon-first-read-through.html)
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http://olicanalad.blogspot.com/2022/07/soldiers-of-napoleon-first-read-through.html
Thanks for that. I look forward to you AAR.
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These rules sound interesting as I enjoy playing both Longstreet and Command & Colours (Maurice card use I’d class differently as they don’t ‘drive’ actions) so checked Gripping Beasts site but at £25 shipping to Australia it’s a no go, must be a VERY heavy book (‘banded’ shipping rates by value rather than weight are an easy way to gouge buyers)…look forward to hearing how they play and getting a second hand copy in the future!
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Got my copy and spent most of yesterday reading it. I've just done a first thoughts review on my blog. Much is about the concerns I had before I read them, concerns now much relieved.
http://olicanalad.blogspot.com/2022/07/soldiers-of-napoleon-first-read-through.html (http://olicanalad.blogspot.com/2022/07/soldiers-of-napoleon-first-read-through.html)
Thanks indeed, and I like the way you write your reviews. Longstreet is exactly the thing this reminds me of. While I greatly enjoy that on a theoretical level, I find that in terms of playing it puts this barrier of the hands of card between me and the game. I'm a-okay with card activation, but I'm not hugely into holding a hand of cards in miniature wargaming. I love the C&C games as much as the next guy, but they keep it very simple and indeed it's not a miniatures game.
How would you say does the importance of studying the cards in your hand / making decisions soley based on how/when/why to play a certain card vs. doing stuff on the table compare to Longstreet? In Longstreet the hand of cards is the central thing since basically all your options (activation, events, losses, etc.) are based on these cards, and I find that this might be a bit too much for me.
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Captain Darling, I ordered the rules through North Star and the shipping was somewhat cheaper. Perhaps you can find an alternative supplier - shipping costs really are becoming a bane for gamers and everyone else.
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Thanks for the tip Gorillacrab, £10 vs £25 big saving 🙂….
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Thanks for comments and clarifications, Greystreak.
I forgot about the skirmish ability with cautious advance when I posted my first quick response. It's one tactic to keep in mind and use.
In our first couple of games, we were shy of playing consecutive order cards on the one brigade in one turn. That might change as we play some more, but the extra cost of disruption made us cautious.
We've not played recently, as too many other games to play and real life stuff happening, but we're looking forward to returning to the game.
cheers,
Tom
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In a typical three brigade game (with five Action Cards) units of one brigade can still act (fire/ move/ charge) three times in a turn without disruption, providing you alternate by ordering one or both of the other brigades in between and the alternately played cards are not used as rally or event. I also noted that it's only ordered units that suffer disruption for consecutive card play, not every unit in the brigade.
I had to read that section several times before I got it. The rule is very subtle, elegantly complex, and I like it. If it's anything like games of Piquet, opening different combat zones by playing some of your cards there to distract the enemy from where he wants to play his cards will probably be the key to good game play: This set of rules is definitely about playing a game.
The main thing I'm presently worried about is the move rate. Infantry moving 4" line /6" att. col / 8" column doesn't sound like a lot. Moving something 4" hardly seems worth the effort: in most of the games we play here, line usually moves 9", att. col. 12", so 4" and 6" will feel like snail's pace. The table here is a 12 x 6 - not what the author had in mind! However, simply changing the length of a pace will mean ridiculously long musketry and canister ranges - I bet it comes down to the D6 charge reach bonus in the end.
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Olicana, as for your concern about movement rates for troops in line. I always treat Rule Books as Recipe Books, in that you can tweak recipes for your own taste once you have tried them. In other words sensible variants for your own games should be encouraged.
There are some players who treat rule books like a bible and never change a thing, but I love to make changes where they make sense for our preferences and I encourages others to do the same.
Finally, it will be interesting to read what you decide to do.
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You really don't know who you are talking to. LOL.
Players here insist on a Specials Board clearly defining what rules have changed day to day (sometimes mid session!).
Players in my house never refer to rules. It's more like a buffet or S'moregas board. Sometimes things are available, new things appear, or sold out! Sometimes things get really spicy.
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Players here insist on a Specials Board clearly defining what rules have changed day to day (sometimes mid session!).
Players in my house never refer to rules. It's more like a buffet or S'moregas board. Sometimes things are available, new things appear, or sold out! Sometimes things get really spicy.
I'm reminded of Pirates of the Caribbean.
'Theyze not rules...more like guidelines' lol
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It should remind players of Maurice... as it was introducing Woz to Maurice that started his brain going and the 'Soldiers of...' series.
I'm just playtesting the Peninsular War lists at the moment. He is working on earlier coalition lists at present.
Its all distracting me from working on Soldiers of Agincourt.
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I'm just playtesting the Peninsular War lists at the moment.
Oooh goody goody! I look forward to those. 8)
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Picked up the rules and played a couple of solo games and with an opponent today. I would say the advice that three brigades a side will take about 3 hours (an hour per brigade) is a good guide . The cards and turn sequence keep both sides involved - and you can't guarantee anything :-).
A couple of things seem a little odd from what I've understood so far- but are more observations that could be house ruled than serious concerns. eg Heavy Cavalry intimidation seems to have the same effect on a square as troops in other formations. Also a unit that is disordered and with more disruption than stands that is due to break in the end phase can still launch effective charges eg 6 strong professional cuirassier regiment in column of attack gets 6 die (6 bases +2 shock -1 column of attack, -2 disorder, +1 superior quality) hitting on 3's.
I get the feeling large units tend to do better.
Overall I've enjoyed playing so far, and importantly the non napoleonic opposition enjoyed them too.
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Nice bit of teasing there Gregor.
Any more about the battles?