Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: Jjonas on July 30, 2022, 07:23:28 PM
-
Seleucus I vs Chandragupta Maurya
The west clashes with the east.
More to come.
Was it a real war, or was it fake news?
@WSSMagazine
@Relic miniatures
@Aventine miniatures
@old glory miniatures
@thistle & Rose
@1st Corps
@Newline Designs
-
An era that doesn't get the attention it should. Keep posting.
-
Yes- Indian armies are under represented. Part of this is because they mostly fought among themselves. Also the historical record is sketchy for the Western battles and campaigns.
-
Have you tried any of the 3d printed Indian's yet Jeff?
Jim
-
“Have you tried any of the 3d printed Indian's yet Jeff?”
No.
This project began last year by finishing off older figures in my "to do" box.
I still have some chariots, maiden guards, and at least one spear/bow unit to finish.
The 3D printed models came out just a few weeks ago. I investigated them online and decided that postage costs and timeframes made them impractical since I still have other metal figures to finish. Also I cannot get a bead on sizes compared to my current figures. Most of my collection range from Old Glory and 1st Corps and Newline older smaller figures to some Vendel and newer larger scale Newline figures.
I’m impressed with a few of the 3D sculpt poses. But I’m not going to add any until I see how compatible they are.
-
Who is the 3-D printed Indian?
-
I'm assuming he is referring to these (below). At least that is what my response was based on:
https://www.blitzkriegminiatures.com/tanks/Ancient-Indians-c130557756
-
Nice looking figures but with chariots at £18 each and elephants at £20+ not one I will be starting soon. Back to the metal mountain!
-
I find 1st Corps chariots to be some of their best offerings:
https://1stcorps.co.uk/product/heavy-chariot-cmnd/
Currently my favorite Indian crewed elephant in 28mm is by Aventine:
https://aventineminiatures.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/53_33_155/products_id/729
-
Jonas, agreed. The Aventine Indians are lovely. Before the Blitzkrieg 3D figures were released I enquired if Aventine planned a bigger range. Unfortunately the answer is "no".
-
Jonas, agreed. The Aventine Indians are lovely. Before the Blitzkrieg 3D figures were released I enquired if Aventine planned a bigger range. Unfortunately the answer is "no".
The thirteen people in the world that would support Aventine and build an Indian army would be very happy. I understand their hesitancy when there are money making projects that cover the opportunity costs. Plus maintaining the inventory must be incredible at a certain point. I watched a documentary about how Hinchcliffe figures went from sculpt to cast to boxes packed by hand from a huge selection of periods. Before computers tracked all that!
Sorry, I'm digressing from the teaser posts. Will get back on track tomorrow.
-
Very good.
I am watching this with great interest, as I always find the construction of an Indian army for the tabletop to be mystifying. They do not seem to use a traditional "Western" approach to units and soldier formations.
I think you previously linked me the designer's notes to Chandragupta hex and chit game, and I also found someone who has it in their collection. I look forward to trying it sometime.
-
The ChandraGupta game notes by Stephen Welch have some of the best and most detailed descriptions of Indian armies available. It is something I refer to now as source, and helped with the design of this scenario. I include this source here, since I will be adding this to ancient battles.com to support the article, since the article does not have the room to explore all these ideas.
Chandragupta board game. This includes a detailed large battle version of Seleucus vs. Chandragupta:
https://www.gmtgames.com/p-40-chandragupta.aspx
The rules have lots of interesting ideas:
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/gmtwebsiteassets/gbchand/Chandragupta_Living_Rulebook.pdf
Boardgame geek reviews:
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/26458/chandragupta
Gandara Scenario:
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/323362/notes-designer-22-scenarios-gandhara
An excellent bibliography from designer Stephen Welch:
Stephen R. Welch
Designer
@SRWelch00
Sep 24, 2008 (edited)
An Annotated Bibliography … and some parting words
For this last installment we’ll return to the beginning of “Notes from the Designer.” As you will recall back in Notes #2, one of the initial challenges in researching Chandragupta was finding sources of research on ancient Indian military history and in particular the Mauryan Empire.
Fortunately, the sources were there. Many of them are the products of Indian academics; others, while authored by Westerners, have been fortuitously kept in print by Indian printing houses. Though some come more recommended than others, all were a fascinating read and provided a piece of information or a viewpoint that proved helpful in some way to the development of the game. I offer an annotated version of the bibliography (the non-annotated version appears in the game’s Playbook) for those of you who are interested.
So at last, on the “eve” of GMT’s publication of the game, I bring these “Notes from the Designer” to a close. I’ve enjoyed writing them and receiving your feedback. But most importantly, I am truly indebted to all of you whose unflagging enthusiasm and interest has made Chandragupta a reality. To you I give my heartfelt thanks.
This is not the last that the Great Battles of History will see of ancient India … and beyond … so stay tuned. In the meantime, enjoy the game! I’ll see you soon back here on ConsimWorld.
Steve Welch
Chandragupta: An Annotated Bibliography:
Bhargava, P.L. Chandragupta Maurya : A Gem of Indian History (New Delhi: DK Printworld, 1996). This monograph, originally Bhargava’s doctoral dissertation, traces Chandragupta’s origins and his rise to power. Bhargava relates Hindu, Jain, Buddhist and Greek legends and folklore to knit together his narrative.
Chakravarti, P.C. The Art of War in Ancient India (New Delhi: Low Price Publications, 1993). Despite the “low price” publication, Chakravarti’s work is the seminal modern study of ancient Indian warfare, first published in 1941. Providing excellent descriptions of the elements of the four-fold Indian army, Indian encampments, fortification and siegecraft, and arms and armor, the work also contains an excellent bibliography of period sources. Highly recommended. This and Majumdar’s work formed the basis of research for the game Chandragupta.
Das, H.C., Military History of Kalinga (Calcutta: Punthi Pustak, 1986). A good treatment of military history focused on Orissa and southern India, from ancient times to Kalinga’s conquest by the Muslims in 1586.
Dikshitar, V.R. Ramachandra. War in Ancient India (Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass, 1987). Dikshitar opens his work with a long discourse on the psychological factors of war in ancient India and ends with a history of Indian diplomacy. Though there are relatively good sections on weaponry, the laws of war (“Dharmayuddha”), and interesting appendices on war music, flags, and manuscripts of the era, Dikshitar’s work is tarnished by an uncritical acceptance of the claims of religious texts – including magical weapons and “aerial chariots.”
Kautilya, Arthashastra. Translated by S. Sastri, Mysore, 1923. The Arthashastra (meaning, “the science of polity”) is the period source on Mauryan-era military organization, tactics, encampments, espionage, as well as a general treatise on statecraft and economic policy. Though named as Kautilya and/or Vishnugupta, the author is traditionally identified as Chanakya (ca 350-283 BCE), the Takshashila scholar who became Chandragupta’s Prime Minister. Several decent translations are available on the web.
Majumdar, Bimal Kanti. The Military System in Ancient India (Calcutta: Firma K.L. Mukhopadhyay, 1960). This work traces the evolution military ideas and practices in ancient India, from the earliest times to the conquest of the Turks. Treated chronologically, Majumdar also appends a critical analysis of the breakdown of the Indian military system. Highly recommended.
Marshall, Sir John Hubert. A Guide to Taxila (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1960). Marshall provides a topographical and historical background for the three cities that over time were all incarnations of the famous Takshashila. The highly detailed fold-out topographical map was used for the Khashas and Takshashila map in the game Chandragupta.
McCrindle, John W. Ancient India as Described by Megasthenes and Arrian (New Delhi: Munshiram Manoharlal Publishers, 2000). Another good period resource, McCrindle’s translation of the original works provides a fascinating window into ancient India as perceived by contemporary Greeks.
Narain, A.K., The Indo-Greeks (Delhi: B.R. Publishing Corporation, 2003). Narain’s “revisited and supplemented” work is thorough and fairly comprehensive, and marked by an erudition that equals that of Tarn. Narain benefits from newer research, including numismatic and archeological evidence that was not available to the British scholar.
Sastrik, K.A. Nilakanta, The Age of the Nandas and Mauryas (Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass Publishers, 1988). Very good history of the two dynasties, including polity, religion, and trade.
Scullard, Elephant in Greek and Roman World (Ithaca: Cornell University Press, 1974). An in-depth and definitive study of the pachyderm and its use in the classical world by the prolific and respected Scullard.
Tarn, W.W., The Greeks in Bactria and India (Edinburgh: Munshiram Manoharlal Publishers, 1980). Originally published in 1938, Tarn’s history of the Euthydemids and Hellenism in eastern Iran and northern India provides the Greek point of view for this otherwise neglected area of history. Though long noted for his erudition, Tarn has been criticized for his idealistic treatment (some would say “hero-worship”) of Alexander the Great and Demetrius II. Some Indian scholars, notably A.K. Narain, have challenged a number of Tarn’s assumptions.
Thaplyal, Kiran Kumar and Shive Nandan Misra eds, Select Battles in Indian History (Delhi: AgamKala Prakashan, 2002). 2 vols. An excellent starting point for any game designer interested in India, the two volumes describe battles from Vedic times to 2000 CE, each battle given a chapter with its own bibliography. One flaw, however, is that the editors do not attribute the chapters to their respective authors. Otherwise, very useful.
Waddell, L.A., Report on the Excavations at Pataliputra (Patna) (New Delhi: Asian Educational Services, 1996). A reprint of the original 1903 report on the excavations of the ruins of the ancient city, previously thought to have been swept away by the Ganges. Many interesting plates, including a handy fold-out map.
Designer Stephen Welch writes in very precise detail about the classes and hierarchy of the Indian army:
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/146003/notes-designer-9-indian-military-grades
-
I'm assuming he is referring to these (below). At least that is what my response was based on:
https://www.blitzkriegminiatures.com/tanks/Ancient-Indians-c130557756
Yes, those were the ones I was talking about. I haven't checked in a couple weeks but I hadn't seen them hit their US distributor's web site. The prices do seem high.
Jim
-
SJXi
I received exactly the same answer after asking the same question. That is really an artist decision, not a commercial one. And I think this is just plain absurd, with all the great respect I feel for the very gifted gentleman who is behind the very nice Aventine miniatures. Why having two Indian elephant crews, absolutely superb, and not wanting a complete range that would be a tremendous add to many of their ranges, from Seleucids to Sassanids, Huns and Turks, and even offer Kushans with some of their references ! I just do not understand. Maybe we could try again both of us? What do you think?
-
They are a small business and recently one of the owners suffered a personal loss. Maybe if this important to you, you would offer to help fund the development. Maybe set up a kickstarter with their permission.
Some miniature companies are using those methods to fund projects.
Or even a go fund me.
Good luck. I hope Aventine does at some time find the time and space for more Indians in their catalog.
-
Pollard, I won't be asking again. The feedback I got was t GG shat the sculptor hated doing them. I also doubt the commercial viability of Indians in 28mm as they are a very £££ expensive army with all those elephants and chariots. My big gripe is the lack of "earl" Arabs who are allies/opponents of both the Byzantines and Sassanids. I was told a few packs were planned but that idea seems to have gone.
Having had exchanges with Keith at Aventine I know that have a pretty full list of things to do including refurbishing older ranges. This latter point is to be applauded it means top-notch figures.
IMHO Aventine produce some of the best quality, beautiful sculpts at reasonable prices on the market.
-
SJWi and Jjonas
You are both right. I would not try to fund the range as there would be more important ones to my mind if I considered this ( and I don't have the money for that anyway). This would be indeed an expensive army. I would rather second the early Arabs point. And yes I do think that Aventine miniatures are absolutely first rate and available for their quality! By the way, what would you like as the basic light horse figure, a javelin man or an archer? The sources mention both if I remember right, and that in any equipment they were most feared by their neighbours.
-
Yeah, leave Aventine be, they do a brilliant job, top quality sculpts at a decent price.
Indians would have been nice, but we’ve got the Blitzkrieg ones to go off plus all the older ranges.
I’ve seen the Blitzkrieg versions in the flesh, they are really nice.
If I was to start an Indian project today from fresh, this is the route I’d choose.
-
I have been reading all the comments above and can state that the issue is our lack of interest in the Classical Indians, we are asked repeatedly why we don't do them and I reply that Adam has no love for them and couldn't get motivated to start them let alone finish them. As a very small setup(just Adm and myself both in our 60's) we have to do what we can rather than what some wish for. The Indian crews came about as a small addition to the elephants rather that the start of a range. As a small insight as to how long a range takes us to complete, the byzantines took over 2 years to do and involved a huge amount of mounts. Indians would be another huge undertaking and expense. It would be feasible to do infantry and cavalry but chariots and more elephants would be a big one and I just cannot get Adam interested.
We had to take the older ranges down for improvement and remoulding, they need to re-appear now and that is what we are working on.
Thanks for the support and kind words.
Keith
Aventine Miniatures
-
Hi Keith-
Sorry this topic turned from praising Indian armies to bashing Aventine (well sort of :)
All I can say is your 28mm resin elephant with metal crew will be seen in the article in WSS 121. I hope to do a more robust review here shortly and then post the results here and on the website.
It is fairly clear that interest does not match return on investment for both models of Indians and gaming them- especially in the realm of “gods own scale” 25-28mm. The other thing is the lack of interesting diversity among Indian troops, except for weaponry and silly shield shapes (from surf boards to bells and weird drink coasters).
One thing I can say with no reservations is the Aventine resin elephants are superior. The Indian crew and equipment are superior.
So thanks for that.
-
I guess everybody will choose their own favorites. Here is the Aventine. Start at the best, and then the rest.
-
Jonas, excellent work. by the way I hope nobody interpreted my commentary about Aventine and an Indian range as implying any criticism of them. Personally I couldn't see any commercial rationale for anyone producing Indians, as they have to be one of the most expensive armies to buy in 28mm. For my favourite ruleset TTS I reckon a small army would set me back well over £300.
I have always found them an excellent company to do business with producing some of the best figures around at very reasonable prices.
'Nuff said.....
-
Here's something for sculptors who might wish some variety in their Indian offerings.
Few look at the early sources. They stick to Sanchi stupas and that's about it.
Duncan Head delves into reconstructing some of Porus' infantry look in:
Ancient Warfare Magazine Vol XII.2 - Wild Allies and Enemies
- Duncan Head, 'Infantry archers at the Hydaspes - Coined Indians'.
He uses the Alexander Medallions as a source, and others, for reconstructions of the cross belt harness* and the different hair bag covering, as well as a proto turban. Plus this reconstruction makes the super long double handed sword a less likely encumberment for an archer. *Some sculpts make the sword strap the cross belt.
https://media.biddr.com/media/img/auction_lots/533/542667.jpg
-
Neither did I mean to bash anybody, the least being the two gentlemen at Aventine. I have been a customer on a modest but regular basis with them, and I shall be clear: their service is first class, they are very nice people to deal with, they make their best to satisfy customers,and I just love their figures. Can I be less bashing?
Philippe
-
All good here! On with the battle :)
(Other scales are available... in 15mm we are blessed with very good figs from Xyston, Museum and a few smaller ranges and related figs from e.g. Khurasan. Between Xyston and Museum there is everything you could wish for and look great together. The old Museum range even has a warwagon. If you want later Indian troop types then in the old Essex and Donnington catalogues there are naptha throwers and the like. Really, all the Xyston and the best codes of the Museum Z Indians are stunning figs in the right hands;) )
-
Seleucus not liking what he is seeing...
Foundry, Relic, and even a Vendel miniature.