Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Railway Wargaming => Topic started by: Vanvlak on September 19, 2022, 06:18:22 PM
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For my railway side of my modelling hobbies I had invested in a short length of O gauge track and a couple of locomotives, plus four or five wagons. The problem is they are a little too large for 28 mm, although admittedly scale creep has (at least in the case of sci fi stuff) drawn closer or reached this size. I haven't managed to find a working chassis without a body which I can happily modify - although I admit I a more familiar with H0 and N gauge models.
Any pointers? This will be part of a sort of railway setting, besides serving as scenery.
I would also be interested in broken down old wagons, to be modified and used as scenery. I did find the Sarissa ones, but have fallen into the proper flanged steel wheel pit and am buying wheels to modify these on the Sarissa wagons I have (which I do not wish to modify). I guess going down this route is the easiest option, but would like to see if one can find train wrecks for sale.
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I was told 'S' gauge was a better fit, but as that seems to be
easier to get on the US side of the pond I haven't seen any myself.
I have had better luck with toy trains off e-bay. Buy very cheap
& even slightly wrong scale can be used as scenery.
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For my railway side of my modelling hobbies I had invested in a short length of O gauge track and a couple of locomotives, plus four or five wagons. The problem is they are a little too large for 28 mm, although admittedly scale creep has (at least in the case of sci fi stuff) drawn closer or reached this size. I haven't managed to find a working chassis without a body which I can happily modify - although I admit I a more familiar with H0 and N gauge models.
Any pointers? This will be part of a sort of railway setting, besides serving as scenery.
I would also be interested in broken down old wagons, to be modified and used as scenery. I did find the Sarissa ones, but have fallen into the proper flanged steel wheel pit and am buying wheels to modify these on the Sarissa wagons I have (which I do not wish to modify). I guess going down this route is the easiest option, but would like to see if one can find train wrecks for sale.
What kind of Locos and rolling stock have you purchased? That is to say are we talking full scale European O-scale which I think is actually 1:43 (35-37mm) or US which is 1:48 (32-33mm)? If it's expensive full-scale O Gauge stuff of either variety it will not only be huge, but will possibly be so large it dominates the table.
Alternatively, the the US down-scaled (is there a similar product for european?) sort of Toy Train O made to run on 0-27 track, is probably right on for size though the trucks might still be oversized and of course width of the rails (Gauge) will still be too wide. 0-27 sort of stuff actually comes in several different sizes. Some almost as tall as full-scale and just shorter in length, some so small they look like S "Scale" stuff on larger wheels and then there are some some fairly well proportioned being halfway between 1:48 and 1/56 in height and width and sometimes even shorter in length. Your best bet then is probably to decide how high you want your rolling stock to be and then specifically ask dealers.
As for S scale, it's the most accurate option, but can be fairly expensive I assume moreso over the pond. However, deals can be had if you look for non-functioning lots and train sets missing box and some parts.
Here's a battle we had with some Lionel 0-27 equipment. Note that the FA-1 locomotive still looks suitably huge, but it's still at least 40% less in length compared to one accurately sized for the 28-32 miniatures and so it actually looks better on the tabletop.
https://www.chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/2017/12/the-scenic-route-a-walking-dead-campaign-chapter-3-runaway-train/
(https://www.chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/PC074826.jpg)
(https://www.chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/PC074812.jpg)
Note that the autos are a mix of 1/43, 1/48 and others.
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First of all - thanks for the help Eilif and has.been, very much appreciated.
S gauge would have been nice, but (i) I already had the O gauge before coming up with this plan and (ii) shipping from US to here is incredibly expensive, and anything on the bay seems to come from the US with similarly prohibitive shipping costs.
My O gauge stuff is European, so yes, it is a bit on the large size. it is not the horribly expensive stuff - the two locos are both Italian Lima models, one a French diesel and the other a British steam locomotive which the previous owner had painted. Links to similar models from retailers:
https://thestationmastersrooms.co.uk/catalogue/product-details.aspx?id=J35827&t=Lima+O+Gauge+SNCF+Blue+Diesel+Loco+RN+67001+Electric+3+Rail+Boxed+Spares (https://thestationmastersrooms.co.uk/catalogue/product-details.aspx?id=J35827&t=Lima+O+Gauge+SNCF+Blue+Diesel+Loco+RN+67001+Electric+3+Rail+Boxed+Spares)
and
https://www.hampshiremodels.co.uk/products/lima-216534-o-gauge-fowler-class-4f-4683-lms-maroon (https://www.hampshiremodels.co.uk/products/lima-216534-o-gauge-fowler-class-4f-4683-lms-maroon)
My wagons are a small, eclectic mix of Lima, Hornby and Sarissa laser cut mdf (with replacement metal wheels).
Thanks for the pics - my locos seem smaller than the FA-1 (!), so maybe it's not that bad.
What I'd really like is a motorised O gauge chassis to scratchbuild a loco on (I would not want to dismantle the two working ones I have), as I prefer having a model which can be operated electrically (for no reason, as it wouldn't really contribute to the gaming aspect, just a fancy I guess).
I think I should set up a mock up to see how they look with scenery and models...
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First of all - thanks for the help Eilif and has.been, very much appreciated.
S gauge would have been nice, but (i) I already had the O gauge before coming up with this plan and (ii) shipping from US to here is incredibly expensive, and anything on the bay seems to come from the US with similarly prohibitive shipping costs.
My O gauge stuff is European, so yes, it is a bit on the large size. it is not the horribly expensive stuff - the two locos are both Italian Lima models, one a French diesel and the other a British steam locomotive which the previous owner had painted. Links to similar models from retailers:
https://thestationmastersrooms.co.uk/catalogue/product-details.aspx?id=J35827&t=Lima+O+Gauge+SNCF+Blue+Diesel+Loco+RN+67001+Electric+3+Rail+Boxed+Spares (https://thestationmastersrooms.co.uk/catalogue/product-details.aspx?id=J35827&t=Lima+O+Gauge+SNCF+Blue+Diesel+Loco+RN+67001+Electric+3+Rail+Boxed+Spares)
and
https://www.hampshiremodels.co.uk/products/lima-216534-o-gauge-fowler-class-4f-4683-lms-maroon (https://www.hampshiremodels.co.uk/products/lima-216534-o-gauge-fowler-class-4f-4683-lms-maroon)
My wagons are a small, eclectic mix of Lima, Hornby and Sarissa laser cut mdf (with replacement metal wheels).
Thanks for the pics - my locos seem smaller than the FA-1 (!), so maybe it's not that bad.
What I'd really like is a motorised O gauge chassis to scratchbuild a loco on (I would not want to dismantle the two working ones I have), as I prefer having a model which can be operated electrically (for no reason, as it wouldn't really contribute to the gaming aspect, just a fancy I guess).
I think I should set up a mock up to see how they look with scenery and models...
You're very welcome. Two very cool looking locos you've got, especially that French Diesel. What class! I think it's great that you're going with powered. I'm currently acquiring some HO gear to do a budget narrow gauge 1/56'ish railroad for PostApoc and Sci-fi and unlike my Sci-fi O-Gauge train (though I have plans to power it someday...), this one will be powered.
You're probably right that your stuff is 1/43'ish and yet it is possible they are smaller than mine for two reasons. First, American locos are huge compared to European, even when scaled down a bit. Secondly, yours might also be down-sized a bit for the classic toy train market. Setting up some scenery is a good idea to figure whether you might already have what you want. I do suspect though that a 1/43 loco might tower over your current 28mm wargaming scenery.
As for building a new body and an old chassis, it might be worthwhile to get the parts diagrams for your currently locos and see if there is a possibility of easily removing the existing shells. Most model trains are made to be opened for maintenance and you might find that it's just a few screws. I knew a fellow who had one powered frame with DCC control and he would swap different bodies onto it depending on what the days consist was! If it's screw attachments for yours it'd be especially easy to attach a new scratchbuilt body and if you have the original boxes, you've already got the best solution for safely storing the original bodies.
If you do decide to acquire another, I recommend looking for a working loco with body damage. It's counter-intuitive, but I often see that a powered frame is more expensive than the same frame with a damaged shell on it. Plus, the damaged shell might provide you with a base to work from in creating your own body.
Whatever you decide, best of luck to you. Sounds like a really cool project, but beware, tinkering with trains can prove addictive! ;)
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I was fortunate enough to find a great deal of S-Gauge track quite cheap a couple years ago, so that sorted that (and also locked me in to S-Gauge).
Probably going to go with the Company B trains eventually as their wheels can be fitted to many track widths, which is really the smartest solution for wargaming offerings.
The chief appeal to me of using true S over using HO (especially larger ones like H0 ON-30, which better fit 32mm minis) and calling it "Narrow gauge" is that the base of one figure can sit very comfortably between the two rails with S-gauge track. A little thing, but I anticipate using the rails as scenery at times with no train at all, so I feel like it's even more important that the rails themselves "look right" than the train.
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Beating able to comfortably set the minis in between rails is a fair consideration. Even Code 100 HO track is so short that it doesn't bother me, but you can't beat S for realism. Around here you can find rusty S Gauge track for pennies, but it's the toy train style. Realistic S with sleepers/ties is more expensive.
My plan is just to clip out every other rail of some cheap HO sectional track to make narrow Gauge track.
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Not a bad idea!
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Out of interest, what actual scale are the Lima models?
Are they 7mm to the foot (1/43 - O gauge) or 1/45? I am not sure if Quarter scale is a general railway modelling scale in Europe.
Some European models are 1/45 scale.
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They seem to be closer to 1:43 - I have to take some measurements to be certain.
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Out of interest, what actual scale are the Lima models?
Are they 7mm to the foot (1/43 - O gauge) or 1/45? I am not sure if Quarter scale is a general railway modelling scale in Europe.
Some European models are 1/45 scale.
Wow, I had no idea that 1/45 is a railrway scale. I thought most euro O was 1/43 (technically 1/43.5), hence HO being "Half O" and being 1/87.
AFAIK, 1/48 scale is not a common European railway scale, but I could be wrong.
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Lenz Spur O is the main producer of O Gauge for the German market and is 1/45 scale.
32mm at 1/45 is 1440mm, pretty close to 1435mm.
You are right about the origin of Half O.
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I have a couple of long lengths (about 5 feet) of S-scale flex track; my various rolling stock are from different gaming (not model railroading) companies, in 28mm "scale". The only actual S-scale rolling stock I own is a 1920s heavyweight Pullman car. And yes, S-scale rolling stock is expensive, and there's almost nothing made for railways outside of North America. So far, though, everything can be made to fit!
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Michael
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What company are those carriages and loco by? Are they Company B prints?
Regardless of game company, did you mount them on S-gauge wheels sourced from railroad suppliers or did they come with wheels which could be placed as needed? (Company B's train prints are track scale-agnostic, I know, not sure about others).
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The carriages and flatcar are definitely from Company B; the loco too, if I recall. These were all purchased in 2012-2018. I think they've remastered their railway equipment a couple of times since then -- they were resin bodies with metal detail parts buffers, undercarriage parts, axles, wheels, and couple of other small bits). I definitely used the wheelsets that came with the kits; it wasn't too hard to assemble them to fit S-scale track.
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Michael B.
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Wow, I had no idea that 1/45 is a railrway scale. I thought most euro O was 1/43 (technically 1/43.5), hence HO being "Half O" and being 1/87.
AFAIK, 1/48 scale is not a common European railway scale, but I could be wrong.
1/48 is mostly used in Europe by aircraft, dollhouse and military modellers. The only reason it is even O in the US is, according to legend, due to an error back in the early 20th century when toymakers were sharing technology under the impression that being compatible with other makers items may send some sales your way. An American engineer is said to have interpreted a 5 printed right across a crease as an 8...
1/43.5 is used mostly as British O, for the same reasons as most British scales are puffed up.
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The carriages and flatcar are definitely from Company B; the loco too, if I recall. These were all purchased in 2012-2018. I think they've remastered their railway equipment a couple of times since then -- they were resin bodies with metal detail parts buffers, undercarriage parts, axles, wheels, and couple of other small bits). I definitely used the wheelsets that came with the kits; it wasn't too hard to assemble them to fit S-scale track.
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Michael B.
Thanks!
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1/48 is mostly used in Europe by aircraft, dollhouse and military modellers. The only reason it is even O in the US is, according to legend, due to an error back in the early 20th century when toymakers were sharing technology under the impression that being compatible with other makers items may send some sales your way. An American engineer is said to have interpreted a 5 printed right across a crease as an 8...
1/43.5 is used mostly as British O, for the same reasons as most British scales are puffed up.
That might be true (though I am doubtful), but 1/48 is a very practical scale, both in simple math terms and because of the large size of American railway equipment for which even the small downsize to 1/48 does have some notable size savings.
Looking back over my earlier posts, I may have implied that S scale is 1/56. It is not. S is 1/64 (traditional old-school 25mm scale), a fact I was reminded of last weekend at Trainfest. 1/64 still often looks quite good next to 1/56 wargaming models, especially alongside the compressed scenery wargamers tend to use. If I had a bottomless wallet, it would probably be my choice as well.
However, this also explains why the toy-train "0-27" scale sometimes looks best next to 1/56. As a compressed version of 1/48 O, it often is functionally the closest thing to 1/56 (28mm).
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yep, those are the older loco and carriage models. Though they are all still compatible with the new 3D printed ones. We have all new wheel sets in metal, but they all still work on S gauge track, with the ability to fit to other scale.
The new locomotives have 3D printed trucks. By default those are scaled to S Gauge. But they can be rescaled to any size by request.
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1/64 is so tough to find, and very little is made for it, but is far and away my favourite scale for planes, trains, and vehicles of all sorts to go with modern 28/32mm minis. Large enough to not look too small, doors/windows/hatches etc. generally look fine at a glance, but they don't take up an unplayable amount of table space the way a 1/48 train or plane does.
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1/64 is an odd scale, but it's fairly common in the states for die-cast. ERTL has alot of things to offer if you're looking for relatively modern farm buildings and farm and construction equipment.
Personally I find the vehicles too small for my taste, but the buildings (which go in and out of production) and scenic items look great for 1/56 wargaming and scale up well next to Plasticville. I'm not sure how true it is, but I've heard that Plasticville "O" structures were originally deliberately made smaller than scale for affordability and to appeal both to those who had American Flyer S-Gauge trains and Lionel 0-27 (compressed O Gauge equipment) trains.
By way of comparison, this is my Christmas Lionel layout from a couple years ago.
https://chicagovalleyrailroad.blogspot.com/2020/12/o-27-christmas-layout-tour.html
It's mostly Plasticville which generally has footprints like S, but doors like O. By way of comparison, it also has a proper full-size Lionel O-scale station (red one), 0-27 train Diner, and the last two pictures have a green-roofed ERTL farmhouse that was sold as 1:64. The people are mostly 1:48 and the cars are mostly a mix of 1:43 and 1:48 with a few oddballs thrown in.
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I've used a mix of 1/56 and smaller cars for my tabletop, with a very small number of larger scales in there as well. The scales on the Lledo and Matchbox cars are shaky at best, and several times what I did was take nominally "1/64" Lledo cars and replaced the undersized wheels with very slightly oversized ones to produce the desired effect. The main thing is that I ended up with a fleet which all looked like they could plausibly be on the road together.
One of the things which is easy to forget is how widely the size of cars used to vary. So my main scale concern tends to be fairly arbitrary: 1) do the doors look like they could sort of plausibly accommodate an average-sized figure? 2) does it look like figures can converse or shoot over the hood/bonnet (i.e waist height to mid-chest height)? My figures have thin metal bases which only adds about 1.5mm, so I also don't base my cars (which I prefer anyway), but if they were on plastic bases, I might theoretically have to use larger cars. Having cars where the hood was up to most figures' chins or higher (trucks can be different of course) always stood out as annoyingly absurd to me and something I could never unsee.
It's all so fiddly, but the end result will always be the hyper-scientific measure of "Does it look alright at a glance?" lol ;)
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Continuing the scale discussion regarding 1/64, I might have found a reasonable source for 1/64 semi trucks for those in the states. Lionel traditional sized Semi trucks and trailers seen to be very close to 1/64 and out of style with railroaders. Thus fairly affordable on the used market.
I've got some of their "Shipping containers" (which are actually van boxes ) and some semis are on the way now. I may have to eat some of my words against these smaller scale vehicles. The "Containers" look pretty good next to 28 figures. Better I think than my 1/48 semi Tractor and trailer trucks which look HUGE on a gaming table.
Will take photographs and measurements when they arrive
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Late to the party, I somehow missed it - but maybe you have missed this entry of mine: https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=73712.msg899323#msg899323
There is still On30 narrow gauge in 1/48th scale on HO gauge tracks. This is a diner made from a Bachmann coach with a 28mm Shadowforge and 1/64th scale die cast cars in front of it. These are the usual mix of scales on my table...
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-RdxF0Guv0mA/UsH08z_1AcI/AAAAAAAAG2w/Qa8YFF6Jw4w/s1600/Diner+043+-+Kopie.JPG)
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Nice work.
On30 is a great option for wargaming. If you don't mind repainting, you can often find deals on Bachmann On30 locos trains on ebay that are made for the "Bradford Exchange" in really cheesy fan paint schemes that have no relation to reality.
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I forgot to post pics of the Lionel 1/64 semi trucks. I really think they are the perfect compromise for 1/56 gaming. The Figure in the picture is probably between 30 and 32mm though.
The Lionel Semi Trucks are widely available on Ebay and quite affordable.
The Blue Tractor is a Kinsmart Kenworth and is cheap on Amazon. You do have to slightly enlarge the trailer hitch hole to make it work with the Lionel trailers though.
If folks are interested, I have some other pics comparing different size containers and trucks that I can share as well.
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I forgot to post pics of the Lionel 1/64 semi trucks. I really think they are the perfect compromise for 1/56 gaming. The Figure in the picture is probably between 30 and 32mm though.
The Lionel Semi Trucks are widely available on Ebay and quite affordable.
The red tractor you mention being from Lionel looks exactly like those from Shinsei. Maybe those die casts were supplied from them to Lionel (who is actually a model railway manufacturer). I use them as well:
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6OpnvoPLpes/XMK-c5Gq7pI/AAAAAAAAKhU/c_UaxWn-WaAKRSwhozfSc5ttndUafuprwCLcBGAs/s1600/TIFT0054.JPG)
They are also good for (Gaslands) conversions, because they are much cheaper than scale trucks for collectors (of which I've got several too of course).
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bjgR0nxnBic/XMK-OABxKWI/AAAAAAAAKew/RsVRTE696IIjq3zTaLnhLwLcSe2Gl4M-QCLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_0247.JPG)
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I bet your right about the tractors. The bodies look identical. It appears that the Lionel trailer frame with swapable bodies may be unique to them though.
Ironically, on Ebay it looks like the Lionel examples are cheaper than the Shinsei! Still, I might have to pickup one of the Shinsei Freightliner COE tractors. I've got a soft spot for those suicide cabs.
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This might help:
http://www.55ng.co.uk/