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Miniatures Adventure => Future Wars => Topic started by: Verderer on November 23, 2022, 11:48:19 AM

Title: Epic thoughts...
Post by: Verderer on November 23, 2022, 11:48:19 AM
So I got a bit of hankering to get back in Epic 40k... used to have largish Blood Angels army and Tyranid army with titans and all, but I was young (well, younger) and foolishly sold them to get a bit of cash. Kinda miss them... I do have a couple of plastic bits and the rulebooks left.

So now I gather there is the "new" Adeptus Titanicus in 8mm (?) and very little else available from GW. So I checked what I could find in the wonderful world of 3D printing, and it seems you can get lots of epic stuff, either for free or for a little money. I think it's a safe bet GW won't ever be returning to Epic outside of those Titans? I mean, it would make a lot of sense, be more economical for the collector, warmachines work better in smaller scale, the rules are great, and I wager it would be popular too, so of course they want nothing to do with it, probably? :D

I might then take a stab at printing some armies, might go 8mm this time, since it would make them combatible with AT, and just in case they do decide to rerelease EPIC? Any thoughts, I assume there are people on this forum who play EPIC.

In fact I already purchased some Varus Miniatures files for Galactic Bros or whatever they call, look pretty nice beaky marines.
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: fred on November 23, 2022, 12:37:02 PM
I’m a big fan of the Epic range of figures and have 3 armies (Squats, Tyranids and Space Marines) and across the group I game with we have most of the armies.

Figure wise we have a mix of GW figures (from various eras) and from other manufacturers, Onslaught and Vanguard probably being the main two. We’ve not added that much 3D printed stuff - but mainly due to lack of need as armies are already big!

I’d have a look at the Vanguard stuff to see if you like that before deciding to go 6mm or 8mm. If you go 8mm you are pretty much limited to 3d printing. Using the 8mm AT titans with 6mm epic stuff isn’t going to be a problem, the titans are meant to be big after all!

Terrain also plays into this, but you can probably use the same for 6mm or 8mm. But there will be much more available pre-made in 6mm.

Rules wise, we moved away from Epic rules a while ago. The various different versions and therefore different army lists just became over complex. We have a very stripped down home brew set we use now, but have tried some different rules as well - the figures tend to port between rule sets pretty easily.

Struggling to find a game photo - so will leave you with a parade of Nids! Most of the infantry are onslaught, with GW for most of the ‘armour’ but other ranges used too.

(https://i.imgur.com/VRrRJo1.jpeg)
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: Brummie on November 23, 2022, 12:57:25 PM
Personally I wouldn't worry too much regarding scale. It strikes me that Epic suffered from a similar problem GW has always suffered from, with nothing actually being to the same scale.

Just have to look at the original Rhinos and there is no way they could fit ten dudes in them.

I also get the impression original epic scaled down the aircraft. Aeronauticas aircraft are huge by comparison and might not even be scale to the new Titans, but since its sci fi its hard to tell.
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: zemjw on November 23, 2022, 12:59:17 PM
I'd stick with 6mm as well, for the reasons fred gives. Scenery especially is going to be easier to find in 6mm (as the pile of unpainted stuff in my loft will attest to :()

Also, if you decide to step outside the GW universe, companies like GZG and Brigade have loads of 6mm SF
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: Verderer on November 23, 2022, 01:48:15 PM
oh nice, I wasn't aware of the Vanguard and Onslaught ranges... ok 6mm seems better option then. Thanks for the tips gents.
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: YPU on November 23, 2022, 02:02:29 PM
Hey another one returns! I'm slowly recruiting people to epic at my local club as well! All 3d printer armies really.

So, this is a hotly debated point, but my 2 cents on the 8mm thing. The new titans are larger than the old ones, this is absolutely true. From my understanding they are very close to 1/4th the size of the 28mm ones... but we have very little hard numbers of what size a titan is even supposed to be! so the actual scale is impossible to pin down. It is generally agreed upon though that the classic titans for epic were smaller than they should be, just for practical purposes.
Either way, the new titans do not come with any human figures, so its hard to tell how many mm tall they should be... but there  are some doors, and they are maybe 7 ish mm tall in many cases, plenty for a 6mm figure, low for a 8mm. but again those buildings are sculpted with production in mind before scale one imagines.
All in all, I'd say 8mm is a myth, its more "properly" sized titans for sure, but that only works if you don't then also scale up the infantry otherwise they are too small again!

Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: Daeothar on November 23, 2022, 02:16:37 PM
Good call. I've always found my Epic Imperator titan (the original plastic one) to be way too small, especially when compared to the artwork and fluff. no way a regiment of Guard could be deployed from those tiny little doors, let alone transporting them in there (just imagine having to sit in one of those legs while the titan is moving. Every step is a guaranteed concussion. By the time it's time to decant, you'd be longing for an Ork choppa to the helmet)

I love the silly thing though...  lol
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: YPU on November 23, 2022, 02:47:02 PM
Its all very silly and I love it dearly.

BTW, @fred I love what you've done with the oval bases on the tyranids! I went with round to give them the most swarm organic feel but those ovals work so well!

(https://i.imgur.com/6ypqNM9.jpg)
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: fred on November 23, 2022, 06:33:16 PM
Indeed the scale of the original stuff is all over the place, especially the various titans.

BTW, @fred I love what you've done with the oval bases on the tyranids! I went with round to give them the most swarm organic feel but those ovals work so well!

Cheers YPU - I saw it on a nid army online, and liked the look, feel it works well for them.

I do like the look of your figures too - are those the original gene stealer figures, I do like them?
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: YPU on November 23, 2022, 06:40:43 PM
Cheers YPU - I saw it on a nid army online, and liked the look, feel it works well for them.

I do like the look of your figures too - are those the original gene stealer figures, I do like them?

Thanks! No 3d printed ones, all of them.
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: fred on November 23, 2022, 06:42:03 PM
That would explain why I’ve not seen them (I couldn’t recall if anyone in our gaming group had the original GW infantry figures for the nids).

Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: Overrevdsquat on November 23, 2022, 10:00:17 PM
You might want to check these guys out ... https://www.rokminis.com/shop (https://www.rokminis.com/shop).

(No connection to me, but I saw them at Warfare last weekend and was impressed by some of their stuff).
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: Gibby on November 25, 2022, 08:09:19 AM
The AT Titans will work great for 6mm. I think the whole 8mm idea comes from a designer saying that a Space Marine would be approximately 8mm in the AT scale, but they're meant to be bigger than a regular human anyway, who would remain 6mm. Therefore, I reckon AT is still aimed at 6mm but would (theoretically) have taller marines than the older Epic.
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: YPU on November 25, 2022, 09:39:19 AM
The AT Titans will work great for 6mm. I think the whole 8mm idea comes from a designer saying that a Space Marine would be approximately 8mm in the AT scale, but they're meant to be bigger than a regular human anyway, who would remain 6mm. Therefore, I reckon AT is still aimed at 6mm but would (theoretically) have taller marines than the older Epic.

Right yes, I missed that tidbit in my summary! The number wasn't pulled from thin air by the community, but this was exactly the era where GW was introducing its primaries marines, which are "correctly sized" compared to regular humans... maybe. You just cant trust GW when it comes to scale.  ::)
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: SJWi on November 25, 2022, 09:57:39 AM
By the way I have a painted Epic Eldar army if anyone is interested. Dates back to circa 2002. Probably only of interest to someone in UK.
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: Major_Gilbear on November 26, 2022, 11:09:58 AM
Epic "scale" has changed a lot over the years, not least because when it started the 40k models were themselves smaller. The "6mm" really just relates to the overall notional height of the infantry figures and not much more. Each broad category of infantry, vehicles, super-heavy vehicles, titans, and terrain (mainly the various buildings GW made over the years) all had their own scale that differed. The titans were the most reduced in size from what they "should" be, followed by the super-heavies. I don't really know about the buildings, as these seemed to vary a fair bit. Then, as various editions wound on over the years and models got re-sculpted, the sizes of each figure relative to the others in the game changed some more!  lol
At the very end of Epic scale figures being made, when FW were making things for E:A, the main sculptor for the range assumed that current 40k figures were 30mm high, and Epic ones were officially 6mm high, leaving them in a 40k-to-Epic conversion of 1:5 or 20%. Thus when FW made their Epic figures, they were always 1:5 scale copies of their 40k counterparts, which resulted in some of the FW stuff having wildly different sizes from earlier equivalent Epic models...  o_o

When the re-boot for the recent/current Adeptus Titanicus came about, they apparently printed some test models using the 40k-scale FW models (since they had the digital model files for those already), and did these at a variety of sizes. The official reason that "8mm" was chosen from among the different sizes they tried was because at that size the titans were big enough to see all details including weapons fairly clearly from the other side of the table, whilst still being small enough that having 6-8 models on the table wouldn't make weapon ranges feel too short. That this scale (and model size) would also be incompatible with the older 6mm stuff was probably seen as an added sales-boosting bonus. Finally, I think the drive to a slightly bigger size may also have related to the long-shot hope that these might get made in plastic; in the end, they did get them approved for plastic production (but FW weren't sure about that when they started).

Aaaaanyway. I love Epic - always have. My favourite rules are probably E40k, followed very closely by SM2/TL. I sadly never played AT1 nor SM1. I did play the last incarnation E:A, but I really didn't like it for some reason - the rules felt "wrong" for the size of the game, and I didn't like the unit size restrictions much (which were themselves a bit limited by the nature of the game mechanics).

If you're thinking of getting into Epic via 3D printed armies, I might also have another oddball suggestion for you to consider; WH40k Apocalypse. The rules are actually quite streamlined and well thought-out (and surprisingly scale-abstract), but using actual 40k models for the game is crazy. Instead, I would play the rules using 10mm or 15mm 3D printed figures, with squads having 3-5 models on one base for their make-up. I think you need this slightly bigger miniature size over 6mm because there are some modest elements of the game that are still related to individual figures (like heroes) where it's helpful to see them on the table more clearly, and there exists lots of good-value third-party terrain in these scales already which saves you needing to reinvent the wheel there.


@ fred and YPU:

Gents, those are some stunning 'Nid armies! well done indeed!  :-*
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: Macunaima on November 26, 2022, 03:25:42 PM
I have gone with Vanguard’s 3mm stuff. It’s superdetailed and it allows you to field as many titans as you want, cheaply.
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: fred on November 26, 2022, 03:38:44 PM
@ fred and YPU:
Gents, those are some stunning 'Nid armies! well done indeed!  :-*

Thanks! They don’t got on the table enough. Games with ‘Nids often seem rather one sided - either the ‘Nids get in and rip the opponent to shreds. Or the opponent manages to stand-off and shoot the nids to shreds! Either way its not much of a game.

WH40k Apocalypse is a good shout rules wise. We have played this with our Epic figures gives a pretty good game - its easy enough to ignore the individual figure level detail and just treat each squad as the same. The resolution of hits at the end of the turn really tempers the whole alpha strike meta that can very much dictate Epic (and 40k) games
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: Major_Gilbear on November 26, 2022, 03:49:53 PM
Yeah, whereas previous versions of Apocalypse were a giant boring pain in the ass to play, this latest version is actually a great game... Which is hardly surprising, since it cribs a lot from SM2/E40k!  lol

My advice (which I hope doesn't break forum rules...!  :-X ) would be to look around online for, erm, a pdf scan of the rules... Then, if you like what you read, buy the official game set that has the book and all the other paraphernalia you'll need. I only suggest this as it's a bit expensive to buy speculatively if you don't like it, but is excellent value to buy if you know that you do (and the tokens etc. in the set are very good quality).
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: Verderer on November 28, 2022, 09:22:08 AM
I guess the other thing to consider is basing, I see there's lots of variations used, the classic square base, round ones, ellipses, and the rectangle one. Does it matter a lot rules-wise, depending on the version of ruleset?

I've been trying to scout a bit 3d printable stuff, both for Epic and Warmaster, and the upshot seems to be that there are loads of great designs, but they're really scattered around various channels, like the Excellent minis / gumroad thingy, and various patreon channels etc. That can be frustrating...

I dont mind ordering physical minis, but with the Brexit and all, it's getting way too expensive to order from the UK, what with raising postage costs & taxes, customs etc. So 3D printing seems more and more the way to go.
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: YPU on November 28, 2022, 09:55:03 AM
With epic Armageddon they accounted for the fact that previously there had been round, square and rectangular bases provided with the miniatures. The rules there are:
Quote
A stand may be no more than 40mm and no less than 5mm across in any direction.
A stand must be at least 20mm across in one direction (i.e., a 5mm by 5mm stand is not allowed, but a 5mm by 20mm stand would be okay).
Stands representing infantry units must have at least three infantry models and may not have more than seven. Infantry mounted on bikes or horses must have between two and four models mounted on each base.
Stands representing artillery must have between one and two artillery pieces and up to six crew models.

Which allows a lot of options. I've based most of my humanoid troops on strips, while swarms like Tyranids go on round bases.
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: fred on November 28, 2022, 12:19:24 PM
I’ve used a variety of basing across my Epic armies

Space marines - 40x12mm plastic bases for infantry
Tyranids - ovals, as seen above - don’t recall the size of these, but around the size of the above
Squats - 25mm circles

Across my gaming group 25mm circles are probably the most popular as they allow a squad to be deployed on the base. But the classic 20mm squares are in use on some armies too.

Rules wise - I think the rectangular basis have some potential to be the best. As you can deploy them wide to control space, or narrow to fit into gaps! I hadn’t realised 5mm was the smallest base size allowed in the EA rules. If someone turned up with 40x5mm based infantry I would want to know why, as this isn’t a standard sized base that came with the figures at any point, and seems quite extreme.
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: YPU on November 28, 2022, 12:22:00 PM
I was wondering about that as well! I think it might be a case of them basically wanting to say "use any base you want" then realize that no, people will abuse that, so lets put some limits on that. anything smaller than 5mm would indeed get silly.
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: fred on November 28, 2022, 12:41:12 PM
I can’t recall which version of the Epic rules we played - I do recall there were similar broad definitions of bases as you have quoted, but I don’t recall the recommendation on number of figures.

5mm bases would be very odd - with the original plastic figures you want some extra size on the base to protect the figures!
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: Verderer on November 29, 2022, 11:04:11 AM
Dang, I dug up some of my old marines and did some test prints on what's available in the net... it's interesting. There's some scale-creep or something going on. Here's my old GW Landraider and a printed proxy side by side.

(https://i.imgur.com/H6epy38.jpg)


I guess this print is 8mm, rather than adjusted for 'proper' size. I printed the file as a found it, so it's easy enough to scale down.

(https://i.imgur.com/ZhlxBnw.jpg)

The second on the right is imperial guard proxy plunked in the middle of old marines... It's a bit closer to size, and not properly set in its place, but I think it's still a little bigger than these old GW SM?




(https://i.imgur.com/vHGcOkf.jpg)

And this 'evil galactic warrior' or whatever really drives home the size difference... Ok, so it's a little dislocated, but still, I measured it up, and from the bottom of its feet (so no base) to the top of its head (horns excluded), its around 9mm. Which would make it large human in 8mm scale... more or less.


(https://i.imgur.com/sN7XQPK.jpg)

Like I said, scaling down or up is easy enough in 3D printing, but of course it's easier to get better prints out of larger models. These were mostly a bit miscast, since I am trying to finetune my printer for ABS like resin, it seems a bit more finicky than the regular types.

Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: YPU on November 29, 2022, 02:11:01 PM
Looking at that land raider that one is in "8mm" indeed, I made the same mistake last week, the thing is nearly the size of my guards baneblades  lol
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: Verderer on December 03, 2022, 02:47:56 PM
Yesh, I am liking this 8mm more and more, as I print the little dudes... there's just a little bit more to paint in details, and these free models are quite nice in quality as well. I did purchase a couple of commercial STLs beaky galactic dudes which are very nice as well, but I will save them for my Blood Angels when I eventually get there... plus you do pretty much every army in 8mm (and of course you can scale 6mm up too).

For now I am printing chaos marines, I am thinking these would be maybe Black Legion, Night Lords.... or maybe Emperor's Children? I want some nice color scheme which would be in nice contrast with BA, orks and Imp guards too. Anyhow:

(https://i.imgur.com/u5BnURt.jpg)
Some tanks to move the marines around and add some firepower. Couldnt resist printing the one with multiple bolters in side sponsons and the gatlings on top. :D Rhinos and Vindicators with suitable chaos emblems and spikez (didn't find any for Emperors Children though, maybe add some afterwards?)

(https://i.imgur.com/TjpQq7y.jpg)
Bikers and a dreadnought, although I am not sure if the dread is some specialist? It was named brute, so I hope it's not a khornate thingy? If it is, I will replace it with a regular one. Need more bikers too.

(https://i.imgur.com/NTfSxWU.jpg)
Regular marines, one with a psyker and a horned dude... don't know what the latter one is, maybe should place on separate stand on its own? One has the commander with the big-ass sword. Need a couple more autocannons.

(https://i.imgur.com/EI5ynhA.jpg)
And last but not least, some terminators. the other stand has a psyker/librarian (and another horny dude), and the other has the commander raised sword next to the banner bearer. It's getting kind of crowded on those bases.

Well, it's a start anyways.
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: YPU on December 03, 2022, 07:39:36 PM
My you have been productive!

I think the dreadnought is modelled on a helbrute, a more recently introduced dreadnought variation that is all mutated looking. I don't think any of the main epic lists have rules for it, but it would do fine as a dreadnought, or maybe even dreadnought+character upgrade.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-NL/Helbrute (https://www.games-workshop.com/en-NL/Helbrute)
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: Verderer on December 04, 2022, 01:02:00 AM
Good call Ypu, that looks indeed to be the case. Looks like most spiky marine chapter may have them, so it's alright. I am digging up my epic rulebooks, and I should still have those dice and blast markers in a box someplace...

Have to order some more resin though, even if these don't use it much. I got lost of pots on the boil, as usual... lol

Oh yeah, apparently the horned guy (horns on his head, not helmet, mind) is an 'apostle'. Dunno if they exist in any of the EPIC rule versions?
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: YPU on December 04, 2022, 09:06:54 AM
In epic Armageddon there are a couple of character types that could be represented by that i think. Worth noting that most 40k figures are uploaded under pseudonyms  to avoid GWs ire. So most names are more of a hint at their use.
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: Verderer on December 04, 2022, 04:29:44 PM
Yes, I've noticed. It can take a moment to figure out what they refer to sometimes. :D

I think the apostle guy is primarily for World Bearers, although the 40k fandom wiki hints they may exist in other traitor chapters too... basically a chaplain chappy with torchers on his backpack.

I am also printing some bases with 4 slots in them, maybe they work better for terminators?
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: YPU on December 04, 2022, 08:23:34 PM
They should be out there, but if you can't find any i could whip some up for you.
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: Verderer on December 04, 2022, 09:23:17 PM
Thanks, i found a couple of stl packs with all sorts of Epic bases, round, square, rectangles and with various number of slots.
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: Verderer on December 05, 2022, 01:52:35 PM
Oops, a local game shop had the Adeptus Titanicus starter set and AT Sector Industrialis (or whatsit) on discount, so naturally I purchased them. I guess I will have at least SOME use for them. :D

By the way, what is this lark about 'primaris' marines, they're supposed to be even larger than regular old ones? Are all the new marines GW now produces of this big ilk? I have completely missed this, are all the new 40k releases of this big variety?

So it's basically a reboot of the SM ranges, so they can sell them again (at higher price)? Or is all the Horus heresy stuff smaller? Not that I care too much, other that potential effect on the sizes of not-marines in 6mm to 8mm.

Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: YPU on December 05, 2022, 02:42:31 PM
That should set you up with pretty much a titan legion on its own I think! And the scenery is quite nice as well.

Yeah you got it in one, they are upgraded marines (in lore and out) they are larger, which is good as the old marines were quite consistent in size with guard and the like slowly overtaking them for height!  o_o  I'm not sure about the heresy stuff but I do believe its more in line with the old figures, except for the characters which end up pretty big at times I believe.

Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: Daeothar on December 05, 2022, 04:06:49 PM
Yes; Primaris marines were conceived along the munchkin pattern of bigger is better. They are also better ruleswise, so every 40K player is nigh obligated to redo their Space Marine armies with the bigger, newer, better variety.

The switch is not 100% done, as it takes time to revamp an entire line, especially one as big as the Space Marine one. but they're slowly getting there, and more and more of the old stuff is being phased out.

The Horus Heresy marines are somewhere in the middle between the 3rd/4th/5th/6th edition marines and the newer Primaris ones when it comes to size. An interesting decision, since they've also pushed the lore of marines declining in stature since the Horus Heresy because the Primarchs were no longer available to provide fresh DNA (or something along those lines).

The end result is that the tried and true Space Marines are now basically reduced to being Squats (hey; there they were all this time! ;D ), and you either get the bigger before or the bigger after versions now.

That would all be well and good, were it not that they've now started releasing loads bigger Imperial Guard Astra Militarum miniatures, which brings those as close to Primaris marines in stature as the old Cadians were to old Space Marines...  ::)
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: Verderer on December 06, 2022, 04:10:00 AM
You gotta hand it to GW, they really know how 're-invent' their main games, time and time again. There no comparison in the industry really. It's a great pity that they deserted their specialist games so fast, I mean their best games are Blood Bowl (which they have rebooted a couple of times to be fair), Necromunda, Mordheim, Epic & its cousins, Adeptus Titanicus, not to forget Warmaster & Bofa and others to be sure.
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: fred on December 06, 2022, 07:31:58 AM
There is talk of a reboot of Epic - not really hear much - other than it might be to add to the Titans.
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: Verderer on December 07, 2022, 08:12:00 AM
Oh really, interesting? Although I just read a forum thread from 2018 speculating the imminent release of tanks and infantry for AT... lol

Some progress, I printed bases with 4 slots, so the termies can live there a bit more comfy. I can take a fes shots later.

I've also agonized about scaling some Imperial and cultist infantry, they seem so tiny that I think I wll upscale them a bit so they fit with the apparently 8mm evil marines I showed earlier.

The same with tanks, some are so obviously true 6mm that they need a bit editing too. The trick is to find some points of reference, like the same model from two different sculptors and then comparing & scaling them.
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: Cypher226 on December 07, 2022, 09:45:00 AM
You gotta hand it to GW, they really know how 're-invent' their main games, time and time again. There no comparison in the industry really. It's a great pity that they deserted their specialist games so fast, I mean their best games are Blood Bowl (which they have rebooted a couple of times to be fair), Necromunda, Mordheim, Epic & its cousins, Adeptus Titanicus, not to forget Warmaster & Bofa and others to be sure.

It's been reported in assorted interviews over the years that the dumpster fire that was Gorkamorka was responsible for the previous death of Specialist Games.  The foreign language editions were massively over-produced and didn't sell, almost bankrupting GW as a whole.
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: Daeothar on December 07, 2022, 12:12:57 PM
It's been reported in assorted interviews over the years that the dumpster fire that was Gorkamorka was responsible for the previous death of Specialist Games.  The foreign language editions were massively over-produced and didn't sell, almost bankrupting GW as a whole.

That's a sales/marketing foul-up rather than it being a bad game though...
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: Major_Gilbear on December 07, 2022, 12:55:41 PM
Eh, the people who like GorkaMorka all seem(ed) to love it though, which I think masks how well received the game really was; I honestly don't think it did anywhere near as well as Necromunda or Mordheim, despite needing much less "stuff" (including terrain) to get into. That's probably why the foreign-language editions really failed to sell, and not so much because they "over-ordered".

What's more interesting (and sadder) to me, is the lumping of Epic in with the other "Specialist Games". It was originally one of the core three games (together with 40k and WHFB), and was a consistently-selling game with a good following. However, the senior management at GW apparently decided that if they took on the LotR license from New Line Cinema, they'd have to drop one of the core games to make room for its promotion and marketing - that meant Epic got dropped. In fact, if memory serves, the early LotR coverage in White Dwarf was printed in the back of the magazine, and upside-down, so that it wouldn't get "mixed-in" with GW's other games... How much of this was done in to strengthen their bid for the license or to convince NLC that they'd give it due effort, I'm not sure.

Anyway, despite the re-launch of Epic with Epic 40k (and a range of largely excellent new models), it never really recovered from being dropped. Whilst some of this was (apparently, based on player feedback) due to the streamlined E40k rules, I think the bigger reason was really a lack of promotion and availability of models in stores. I know Epic Armageddon is often regarded as the best version of the rules, but I would have much preferred a second edition of E40k personally. Oh well!  o_o
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: Daeothar on December 07, 2022, 01:36:29 PM
If I recall correctly, Gorkamorka was not even supported through Specialist Games, even though most of the other games were (and then; some more than others).

I remember the upside-down White Dwarfs, but I always assumed that New Line forced GW to make absolutely sure that 'their' miniatures wouldn't be mixed with the existing lines. Hence the different scaling and also the separation in the magazine and the ban on using LotR miniatures and parts in Golden Daemon entries, etc.

Also, I didn't know that Epic got dropped because of LotR; to be honest, I can't even quite place when Specialist Games became a thing. What I do recall is that Epic 40K (which Jervis Johnson called his best game) was not as well received as was hoped. But how much of that was due to the shifting focus of GW, I couldn't say. Seems plausible enough though.

I have all Epic scale games bar the original Titanicus (which I will add to my collection some day!), but I am ashamed to admit; I've never even played a single game of Epic. Or Space Marine, or Titan Legions... I do want to though...  ::)
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: Major_Gilbear on December 07, 2022, 05:06:02 PM
If I recall correctly, Gorkamorka was not even supported through Specialist Games, even though most of the other games were (and then; some more than others).
It... Um, got a free PDF rules release online, and there were a few (4? 5?) little magazines for it in the Citadel Journal/Fanatic style, followed by these collected into 2-3 journals called Gubbinz. That was it.

I remember the upside-down White Dwarfs, but I always assumed that New Line forced GW to make absolutely sure that 'their' miniatures wouldn't be mixed with the existing lines. Hence the different scaling and also the separation in the magazine and the ban on using LotR miniatures and parts in Golden Daemon entries, etc.
I was never quite sure which party insisted on the very deliberate separation, but I always assumed that neither would want their IPs mixed with the other's for obvious legal reasons.

Also, I didn't know that Epic got dropped because of LotR; to be honest, I can't even quite place when Specialist Games became a thing. What I do recall is that Epic 40K (which Jervis Johnson called his best game) was not as well received as was hoped. But how much of that was due to the shifting focus of GW, I couldn't say. Seems plausible enough though.
It was in an interview with Rick Preistly I read online some time back... Lots of those interviews have since been removed over the years (sadly), but it struck a chord with me as it was something that I had always wondered about at the time. If I somehow have misremembered this though, I'd be gladly corrected!

I have all Epic scale games bar the original Titanicus (which I will add to my collection some day!), but I am ashamed to admit; I've never even played a single game of Epic. Or Space Marine, or Titan Legions... I do want to though...  ::)
I have all of them, except Space Marine 1, and only the PDFs of Epic: Armageddon. I've not played AT1, SM1 (obviously!), or the new Titanicus (embarrassingly...). You should definitely give SM2/TL a go, and I'd try Epic40k too (so easy to play!).
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: YPU on December 07, 2022, 06:18:59 PM
Anyway, despite the re-launch of Epic with Epic 40k (and a range of largely excellent new models), it never really recovered from being dropped. Whilst some of this was (apparently, based on player feedback) due to the streamlined E40k rules, I think the bigger reason was really a lack of promotion and availability of models in stores. I know Epic Armageddon is often regarded as the best version of the rules, but I would have much preferred a second edition of E40k personally. Oh well!  o_o

So what I've heard in interviews (I'd link it but cant seem to find it now)  Epic Armageddon (EA) is considered one of his biggest failures by Jervis Johnson. Not because its a bad game, in fact it was way ahead of its time including many things that are quite current today, which might be why there is a minor revival of the game ongoing currently it seems. No it was too different from what came before. It might have been the best game to play 6mm 40k, it was not at all the best version of the traditional epic rules. And as mentioned it did not get huge levels of support, so the old player base was not biting, and new people weren't onboarded.


I have all Epic scale games bar the original Titanicus (which I will add to my collection some day!), but I am ashamed to admit; I've never even played a single game of Epic. Or Space Marine, or Titan Legions... I do want to though...  ::)


Im game for a game! I've been playing armageddon a fair bit of late but I'm curious to other editions as well!
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: Major_Gilbear on December 07, 2022, 07:21:56 PM
@ YPU:

I agree! That said, it's fair to admit that E40k does have some moderate issues... To use the author's own terminology, I think he failed to slay his darlings in several key areas.  lol  Nothing that stops the game being fast, fun, and flexible, but they are things that probably would have helped the game quite a bit if they'd been caught earlier IMO.

If as a new player you can get the books for it, I would always recommend it - you can make detachments for each army out of almost any mix of units, so it's great if you're starting out with a bit of a small/eclectic mix of figures. There was also a very decent Citadel Journal / Specialist Games army list for the Squats too.

@ Verderer:

Er, sorry! I didn't mean to hijack your thread...  :-X
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: Verderer on December 08, 2022, 03:35:14 AM
No worries, all this is interesting to read, I never knew exactly why Epic was dropped, or that Lotr might have something to do with it.

I had a chat with one 3d sculptor who makes and edits them, and he gave the opinion that the marines I am using are actually scaled for true 6mm, if you use the scale where a 6mm guy is 6 feet tall, and an 8mm marine is 8 feet tall. I guess that makes sense.

Oh yeah, and he was also of the opinion that the original vehicles were way too small, more like 3mm, so they ought to be bigger really... but the main thing is get what you like and use it.
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: Daeothar on December 08, 2022, 08:06:06 AM
Im game for a game! I've been playing armageddon a fair bit of late but I'm curious to other editions as well!

Cool; let's set something up then  :)

Like I said; I have (almost) all of the big boxes. I also have a 6x4 table and everything required to play. Of course you can bring your own armies, as mine are obviously still bare plastic and very basic...
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: Verderer on December 28, 2022, 04:58:10 PM
Been printing some real estate recently. I have some some from WargameForge, a sample on the left; then I have printed some Sacrus Mundus pieces - the triumphal arc and the big building in the centre, these are originally in 30mm but scale pretty well to 6 or 8mm, in this case scaled down to 33%. Then on the right is a free factorium building from Cults3D. I am planing to print some more from the same ranges.

(https://i.imgur.com/kwtjTDd.jpg)

Speaking of terrain, I know Grimdark Terrain seems to be popular with AT players, I've seen some forts, trains etc. but I am uncertain if they make any regular housing at all? It seems very special stuff, but cool nonetheless. Their catalogue is a bit painful to slog through, and it looks like a Patron account is the way to go?

And speaking of Adeptus Titanicus, the game seems to concentrate on Horus Heresy times primarily? What about using Titans in actual 40k, I assume they're still around? And how does one move Titans around off-planet? They must have some landing pods or something surely? Has this been covered anywhere?
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: fred on December 28, 2022, 05:03:15 PM
Looking good - I’d suggest you could print the buildings a bit bigger if you want them to be more imposing! Certainly against the land raider they don’t look too big at all.

Titans are a thing in 40k - but I’ve never worried about how they move around between planets - actually I’ve never really been too bothered about the space travel bit in 40k at all. The whole Tech level seems so bizarre that its as easy just to accept the units you are given!
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: YPU on December 28, 2022, 06:08:35 PM
It's mentioned that the adaptus mechanicus have giant even by 40k standard space craft for the purpose of transporting titans. The first gaunts ghosts novels has them transported on one as a "reward" for liberating a forge world.

Epic Armageddon which definitely deals with 40k era rather than 30k definitely uses titans a plenty. "You can field your titans against my puny infantry" is always a strong argument for converting titanicus players to epic.

I agree on the buildings, it's interesting considering the first epic games came with cardboard highrises.
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: Verderer on December 29, 2022, 02:24:24 PM
Oh yeah, those, from Space Marine I think? I might actually have them stashed someplace...I've certainly seen the plastic roof sections pretty recently. I remember the original AT had some buildings too but they were some kind of pressed foam material?
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: Verderer on December 31, 2022, 12:32:29 PM
One more building, this is a hab tower made by Bits Blitz Designs, downloaded it from Cults.

(https://i.imgur.com/JTNe5jt.jpg)

I actaulla scaled it up to 130% in size, as it looked a little small in comparison with my other buildings. Maybe it's true 6mm, but in any case now the floors height and door sized are pretty close to the building on the left. Not that it's that important. The little dudes on the balconies I estimate are about 7 or 8mm tall.

This is blue tacked together, it's a multipart model.
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: fred on December 31, 2022, 12:45:10 PM
I like that nice and imposing! Should block LoS even for a Titan.

Not entirely sure about the balconies - they seem very large for what they are - but adds a bit of detail to the building.
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: Verderer on December 31, 2022, 03:00:19 PM
True, I am kinda undecided on them too; but there are nicely options for all sides: without balconies (so just windows), one balcony per level with windows on both sides, or two balconies per level without any windows...and an optional roof with less features.

The balconies are separate pieces, so you could replace with with, say, walkways to connect two or more towers to create a mega tower... o_o
Title: Re: Epic thoughts...
Post by: fred on December 31, 2022, 03:49:27 PM
Walkways - you need some of those, and obviously another tower or two to walk between!

I think aerial walkways give that extra Sci-fi feel - even if in a battle zone they would be the first things to come crashing down!