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Other Stuff => General Wargames and Hobby Discussion => Topic started by: Yarkshire Gamer on December 04, 2022, 02:57:47 PM
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https://yarkshiregamer.blogspot.com/2022/12/wargames-shows-do-we-still-want-them.html (https://yarkshiregamer.blogspot.com/2022/12/wargames-shows-do-we-still-want-them.html)
I've put together a blog post following my display at the Recon show in Pudsey yesterday, there are 20 or so pictures on the link above.
I'd done a full post on the Siege of Forli (What If) game not that long ago so I've taken the opportunity to discuss the future of Wargames Shows in the UK.
I would love to hear your thoughts. Me I'm hearing rumblings and it's not my stomach after a bacon butty. It's not like there hasn't been a perceived "crisis" in the hobby before just look back at old copies of your Wargames Magazines for the previous portents of doom, even a few years ago the cheery "Your all dying, Wargaming is F@*#×d" video from Little Wars TV asked a similar question.
Give it a read and tell me what you think.
Regards Ken
The Yarkshire Gamer
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As you say: an age old problem. The post pandemic issues, energy costs and rampant inflation do make the current period one of the worst in recent memory. Businesses will vote with their wallets and will do so quickly once the numbers don't add up.
Having said all that, when I was running a small wargames business I was always asked "why don't you do shows?". My answer, as a retailer of imported goods, was two fold:
- For large shows, I would have to sell all my UK stock (and I do mean al) to make enough profit to cover the costs of attending the show (= break even, at best).
- For any other shows, I was unlikely to sell enough to cover the cash I'd have to pay to run the stand; Never mind the sold stock. In plain terms: I'd make a loss and still have to spend more to replace stock.
Now if you sculpt and cast your own stuff, or sell second hand goods bought for buttons, your margins are better so some shows may be profitable. Plus any loss could be written off as "advertising".
Sadly, the latter is a spurious benefit at best. But for out & out retailers shows are near certain way to lose money.
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As soon as you wrote Nottingham Mafia I was out mate.
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As soon as you wrote Nottingham Mafia I was out mate.
Why Nick, haven't you got a sense of humour ? It's a joke. You have really lost me with your comment, is that really offensive ? Surely it's better to be in the hub of the Wargaming World
I've just read the comment again (it's right at the end of the piece) and you really have totally and completely lost me with what I've said wrong :-[ I am clearly commenting on the lack of press for anything Norrh of Nottingham, seriously mate let me know cause I look like Mr Puzzled doing the world's most difficult puzzle at the moment !
Regards Ken
The Yarkshire Gamer
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Thanks for your thoughts. I recently was considering something similar on my way home from Warfare in Reading (sort of).
I am a punter. Until having to move in 2019, I lived in the southeast, just outside the M25. It was a great place to get to shows from, so I could enjoy lots each year, from Salute, to the joy of 1/2 a dozen stalls and a cuppa at the Blackwolf scout hut in Hitchen.
I go to shows to buy, mostly. At shows I can get either little bits I need without having to pay postage; or I can get great bargains off bring and buys or very often, off retailers who are remaindering stock, or selling slight seconds. Filling stalls with the latest big company sets at 15% off does little for me. Seeing a new producer with a new niche is a bonus. If the show entrance fee and parking/fuel/ etc is more than maybe 3 lots of postage, its a disincentive.
I also, then, go to see new stuff that hasn't crossed my online radar. It does seem to be getting harder to keep across all the news, now that forums are old hat and I don't want to be signed on to hundreds of social media groups just for the odd snippet.
I do play games too. We played a fun aliens game at Warfare. I enjoy looking at the eye candy games too, but there is so much mdf etc out there now that the creativity and inspiration feels really diluted. Dislike games put on by manufacturers with the sole intention of selling me stuff. Leave the sales pitch at home - pique my interest and make it fun.
My thoughts after Warfare were mixed. It was the first time I had been on a Sunday, and it felt dead in comparison to the Saturdays I used to enjoy. It was a good venue, but the show felt a bit squeezed considering the huge empty hanger the competition games took a small part of. It did make me wonder if 2 day shows are too much for traders and volunteers alike - by Sunday they are jaded. I noted the mix of stalls too. My son has recently moved out and wanted to get some bits to replace my easily borrowed ones - simple stugg like a modelling saw and some x-acto blades, oh, and a cube of d6. We found the saw in the end. Blades were unfindable, and so was that sort of box of dice he was after. Where has all the creativity gone out of wargaming where we no longer have a selection of modeling tools at a show??? As for not having someone with a box of dice, I was staggered. So many stalls seemed to be just another couple of guys with a laser cutter making the same sort of stuff as other people with a laser cutter.
I do wonder if some clubs are downsizing - like Blackwolf, and Penkridge, maybe others. Going back to cheaper church and school hall like venues with just a few stalls or big bring and buy.
I used to love the Pudsey show when I was in Yorkshire. Really friendly. Was massively underwhelmed by Fiasco last time I went. I really enjoyed it when it was in the ground floor of the museum, but in the dark hall over the square it was horrible. Even meeting up with some old friends barely lifted it.
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…….As for not having someone with a box of dice, I was staggered…….
I’m surprised as well. Obviously, I retired to soon ;)
Doug
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Thanks for your thoughts Overrecdsquat,
Sadly with the Leeds Show we no longer can rely on the exhibition hall inside the museum, we nearly didn't run the show one year because we got booted out as some guy called James Bond turned up with his cars.
We repeatedly ask the Museum for better lighting in the current hall but we are largely ignored it's been designed as a night time Concert and Party Venue, our once a year show doesn't even register on their radar.
We have searched for years for alternative venues but the Internationally renowned Museum is the best we can come up with.
The lighting is definitely not our choice.
Regards Ken
The Yarkshire Gamer
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Interesting post.
I’ve never been a big show attendee typically 1 or 2 a year (and being based in the NW of the UK none are that close). And as I mainly game in 10mm much of what I want to buy isn’t available for ad hoc purchase at shows, so a ‘small carrier bag’ is often what I come away with.
But I do like a wander around, to see games, and to see what is on offer to purchase. Especially the smaller bits and pieces that are a pain to buy online.
I noticed in the comments that Battleground in the NE was mentioned as getting better than pre-pandemic numbers though the door, and this is what Leon from Pendraken has shared as official numbers. You also mention about manufacturers taking over shows, and this certainly seems to have worked for Battleground - so perhaps a chat to Leon on the podcast would be good?
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Salute and Warfare seemed dead last year - but in the case of Warfare it could have been the horrible venue. Hopefully it will grow into Farnborough. I think after a year fallow, Salute will bounce back.
The main 'sleeping' crisis for our club is that it is top-heavy age-wise and there are no members under 35. In a few years time we may not have enough members to afford the venue we've been in for 40 years.
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Some context: I have in my time been a show organiser(WMMS); a Demo gamer (WMMS, Partizans, Midland Militate); helped on Trade stands (Duncan's); and been a Punter (back in the day up to 20 shows a year from Salute in the south to Claymore and Carronade in Scotland). As a geriatric-in-waiting wargamer I'm now a mere punter at shows, but I missed them badly during the Plague and was so pleased to get back to them this year. Undoubtedly there will be issues ahead centred on the cost of living issue alone for some punters and traders but I'm convinced that shows will not only survive but will prosper, for in tight situations hobbies become more, not less, important and spending rises not falls as it represents better value for money than a pint in the pub, which is just gone when the glass is empty after all. This year I've been to both Partizans, Hammerhead and Penkridge TT Sale and enjoyed each one. Why? I saw great games and many traders, I bought stuff I didn't know I wanted as well as what was on my List! I got a bargain or three. I met friends old and new to chew the hobby fat. All of which rejuvenated my sadly aging hobby mojo and brought me great joy. I'm convinced for these reasons shows have a future and will go on from strength to strength, riding out this storm as others before.
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As background, I don't drive anymore so show visits are dependent on public transport which has been somewhat erratic recently. Also, if I bought not a single figure more (As if!!) at current rate of painting my lead mountain would last me a millennium, at least! I have two figures bought in 1978 that are based and undercoated but not yet painted.
I made it to Claymore (local show) and Joy of Six this year. Both excellent. Plans for Carronade, Battleground and Fiasco were scuppered by rail disruption or illness.
Purchases from traders and Bring & Buy are largely things I don’t need, bought with money I don’t have for projects I’ll never finish. 🙂 I’m on my own, I have the cash (more or less) and the space (for now) so f*** it, why not?
Biggest draw, for me, of shows is a chance to meet the people I only see at shows – traders and punters alike.
Next is the chance to see things in the flesh (well, in the lead, plastic, mdf or resin) and plan online purchases for the future.
Finally, I photograph every game, or at least intend to, which I rummage through from time to time if I’m looking for inspiration for figure colours or a piece of terrain or whatever.
Downside of shows for me is that there seems to be an emphasis on 28mm and I am drawn to ever smaller stuff as my eyesight and hand/ eye coordination get worse. Doh!
Next year I hope to do better in attending shows than I managed this year.
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As soon as you wrote Nottingham Mafia I was out mate.
Sure we'll meet at a show next year, we'll have a chat about it then, it's too long to go into here.
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Sure we'll meet at a show next year, we'll have a chat about it then, it's too long to go into here.
Will do Nick, I have no idea how or why it's caused offence and it certainly wasn't meant in any other manner than the joking way I write and Podcast.
Regards Ken
The Yarkshire Gamer
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If I look back to why I go to shows I guess the answer has changed over time. Back in the '80s before the Internet, apart from odd ads in the wargames press going to a show was about the only place you could see many traders or their shiny new products . Many/most companies now have decent websites, so that rationale has largely disappeared. Yes you save on postage and packing by buying at a show but you can get a lot of P&P for the sometimes £10 entry fee plus transport etc etc. So there must be more to a show than a shopping expedition. Probably my main motivation for attending a show nowadays is seeing a good demo game of a period that I haven't thought of before, or which uses a set of rules that may be of interest. Being able to talk to the authors is something I particularly value. This year I have only managed to get to Warfare at Farnborough and was less than overwhelmed. I've seen a thread in the "Medieval Adventures" section regarding the recent Reveille show in Bristol. What I saw there ticked most of my boxes. Big doesn't make it beautiful!
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I've long realized that things are wildly different in the UK as opposed to the Mainland when it comes to shows. And stores for that matter.
In my experience, the wargaming landscape in the Netherlands has always been a very bleak desert indeed. I saw my first gaming table at a show called Ducosim back in the early nineties. It's when I bought my very first copy of White Dwarf too, and those two combined were my first glimpse of a much larger wargaming world than I could ever have imagined.
Now mind; Ducosim was a twice-a-year event, by and large focussing on boardgames. I went there with some mates to see if there would be any more roleplaying books and maybe some expansions for Hero Quest, as that was about the extent of my exposure to miniature gaming at the time. And then there was this single large table full of scratchbuilt terrain and miniatures that drew my eye.
The game in progress was probably Rogue Trader, and I was gobsmacked. The guy I talked to there, who built the table, has never known how much he actually changed my life by staging that demo game then and there. Thanks, man!
But at future iterations of the show, no more tabletop gaming took place, much to my disappointment. My contact with the gaming world at large was through my very well read copy of White Dwarf and the very occasional visit to Antwerp with my parents, where there was a dedicated wargaming store called The Lonely Mountain (which I was allowed to drop in for a few minutes while the rest of the family waited outside).
It was not for over a decade later that I finally managed to go to a dedicated wargames show, coincidentally also in Antwerp, called Crisis. The venue was still at the Metropolis at the time and it was JAM-PACKED! Again, it felt like I had arrived at Valhalla, and my funds were well and truly depleted afterwards.
And that show became a fixed feature on my calendar. In fact, bar Poldercon, which is a completely different beast (sign up for 4 participation games and have fun, as opposed to gawking and punting), it's been the only show I've ever attended (also I'm not counting GW Games Days here).
Crisis was the way I could buy cheap 2nd hand minis and pick up all the new goodies I'd been craving. It was my yearly spending fest, and I looked forward to it each year. That, and the fact that thre were always amazing displays and games to admire and even a few friends to run into.
But then the combination of Brexit and Covid killed the show. It's been cancelled two years in a row now, and I fear it will never come back again.
True enough, the last few years I didn't spend nearly as much as I did back when I first started going, but it was still sort of the highlight of the wargaming year for me.
The closest show now is Tactica in Hamburg, and that will require a lot more in terms of logistics, as it's literally 10 times farther away from where I live. But I will probably go there at least once, simply because of the lack of alternatives.
So you UK guys should rejoice, really, as there at least still are shows over there, no matter how meagre they've become ;)
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We usually go to a lot of shows, have done for decades.
Sheffield Triples, Northern Militaire, Derby, Partizan, Hammerhead, Fiasco, Recon, Vapnatrak, Phalanx, Battleground, Claymore, and others that I can't remember the name of. Only managed Salute once.
We tend to spend most of the day at a show, usually just chatting to folks, but we try to get in a game at every show (if possible).
We don't spend a fortune, usually just picking up odd bits and pieces.
But the one thing that is generally the same for most venues is poor catering.
There have been some appalling shows for food - Donnington was poor and very expensive, Partizan (in the showground venue) usually has long queues for food & drink.
But the little show at Retford was one that we used to go to because they served really good cakes.
Vapnartak used to have better catering at the Merchant Venturers Hall than it does at the Racecourse. Not as good as the Retford cakes, but better than a lot of others.
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Daeothar, I truly feel your pain. "Crisis" was something special .My mates and I visited back in 2018 and thought it truly excellent. As you say we are rather spoiled in the UK. This year we held a "Crisis Memorial" game in our local bricks-and-mortar shop to "showcase" the hobby to a group of Pokemon players. In some way for me this went back to the start of my show experience. Local club shows trying to drum up support and showcase the hobby to an incredulous public. Hence my comment earlier in the thread about being inspired by the recent Reveille show in Bristol.
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Yeah, if the show scene is very different on the continent, there are even bigger differences between the UK and the states!
However, I am not an expert as I very rarely go to shows. The travel is too expensive and time consuming for me. However, it is one of my Hobby goals to eventually get to a gaming convention.
I am somewhat envious of all the shows in the UK that seem much easier to access.
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We usually go to a lot of shows, have done for decades.
Sheffield Triples, Northern Militaire, Derby, Partizan, Hammerhead, Fiasco, Recon, Vapnatrak, Phalanx, Battleground, Claymore, and others that I can't remember the name of. Only managed Salute once.
We tend to spend most of the day at a show, usually just chatting to folks, but we try to get in a game at every show (if possible).
We don't spend a fortune, usually just picking up odd bits and pieces.
But the one thing that is generally the same for most venues is poor catering.
There have been some appalling shows for food - Donnington was poor and very expensive, Partizan (in the showground venue) usually has long queues for food & drink.
But the little show at Retford was one that we used to go to because they served really good cakes.
Vapnartak used to have better catering at the Merchant Venturers Hall than it does at the Racecourse. Not as good as the Retford cakes, but better than a lot of others.
I feel you are spoiled in the Midlands/North! We only have SELWG, Salute, Warfare, and Cavalier down here in the bleak South-East. I'm sure it's nothing to do with the proximity of the city that shan't be named...
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Derby?
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Derby?
Alas the Derby show is no more. You can read the whole sorry tale here
https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=109783.0
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Writing as a Northerner who has lived in the South for 40 years people need to check their geography. The area covered by the "Northern/Midlands" shows is pretty big and I doubt many people go to them all. By contrast the South-East is relatively small even if you do need to go round the M25. Also, I can recall several SE shows such as Bedford and Ilford and Dunstable that that have bitten the dust.
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Wargames shows demise? You'd have to go a long way to top the debacle/shambles, that ended Sheffield Triples. Saddest bit, the fookwit who orchestrated it, bragged about his efforts, in my vey own Emporium!
>:(
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Wargames shows demise? You'd have to go a long way to top the debacle/shambles, that ended Sheffield Triples. Saddest bit, the fookwit who orchestrated it, bragged about his efforts, in my vey own Emporium!
>:(
I know I shouldn't ask but what happened?
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When I lived in the UK (Bournemouth and Chester) I went to a lot of conventions/shows but it was usually to do some shopping and a quick glance at the games being put on before leaving.
Having lived in Canada for the best part of 25 years, going to North American is a pleasant experience as I get to game and shop at the same time.
Most of the conventions I go to are an 8 hour drive from Montreal but it is always worth it.
I was just in the UK and visited Fiasco, nothing had changed. Just a quick shop, look around and leave.
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I've long realized that things are wildly different in the UK as opposed to the Mainland when it comes to shows. And stores for that matter.
In my experience, the wargaming landscape in the Netherlands has always been a very bleak desert indeed. I saw my first gaming table at a show called Ducosim back in the early nineties. It's when I bought my very first copy of White Dwarf too, and those two combined were my first glimpse of a much larger wargaming world than I could ever have imagined.
Now mind; Ducosim was a twice-a-year event, by and large focussing on boardgames. I went there with some mates to see if there would be any more roleplaying books and maybe some expansions for Hero Quest, as that was about the extent of my exposure to miniature gaming at the time. And then there was this single large table full of scratchbuilt terrain and miniatures that drew my eye.
The game in progress was probably Rogue Trader, and I was gobsmacked. The guy I talked to there, who built the table, has never known how much he actually changed my life by staging that demo game then and there. Thanks, man!
But at future iterations of the show, no more tabletop gaming took place, much to my disappointment. My contact with the gaming world at large was through my very well read copy of White Dwarf and the very occasional visit to Antwerp with my parents, where there was a dedicated wargaming store called The Lonely Mountain (which I was allowed to drop in for a few minutes while the rest of the family waited outside).
It was not for over a decade later that I finally managed to go to a dedicated wargames show, coincidentally also in Antwerp, called Crisis. The venue was still at the Metropolis at the time and it was JAM-PACKED! Again, it felt like I had arrived at Valhalla, and my funds were well and truly depleted afterwards.
And that show became a fixed feature on my calendar. In fact, bar Poldercon, which is a completely different beast (sign up for 4 participation games and have fun, as opposed to gawking and punting), it's been the only show I've ever attended (also I'm not counting GW Games Days here).
Crisis was the way I could buy cheap 2nd hand minis and pick up all the new goodies I'd been craving. It was my yearly spending fest, and I looked forward to it each year. That, and the fact that thre were always amazing displays and games to admire and even a few friends to run into.
But then the combination of Brexit and Covid killed the show. It's been cancelled two years in a row now, and I fear it will never come back again.
True enough, the last few years I didn't spend nearly as much as I did back when I first started going, but it was still sort of the highlight of the wargaming year for me.
The closest show now is Tactica in Hamburg, and that will require a lot more in terms of logistics, as it's literally 10 times farther away from where I live. But I will probably go there at least once, simply because of the lack of alternatives.
So you UK guys should rejoice, really, as there at least still are shows over there, no matter how meagre they've become ;)
Absolutely. Whenever I read about such shows I'm actually jealous because there aren't any around here that I'm aware of. I can however imagine that shows are suffering from a combination of factors but given how conventions are doing I do think that they have a future.
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Some interesting points there Ken! I love doing shows as a gamer for the social aspect, but things have changed hugely from a trade point of view in the last twenty years. I think that we need to reevaluate what shows are about; now the internet has provided a shop window for everyone, is a smaller, participation gaming-based approach the way forwards for shows?
One thing I’d like to mention is that proximity to Nottingham is not necessarily a recipe for success or trader attendance. The Robin show in Nottingham (2017-18) didn’t have the gamut of traders that Partizan or Hammerhead has, nor did the Lead Belt show (early noughties, I think) and neither are still in existence.
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Hammerhead is a great one for participation games, and at the last one the catering was quite good too (but in the other hall that doesn't get used for Partizan if that makes a difference).
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An interesting discussion. My 2p is that I have only been to one wargaming show and that was a small affair held in a local school sports hall and which seems to now be defunct. A friend and I took our boys along out of curiosity not long after we started the hobby about 5 years ago, and we all really enjoyed it. The entry fee was nominal and I bought a few bits and bobs (such as a ships wheel for a pirate ship I was scratch building) and we tried a few games including Wild West Exodus (which my friend ended up buying) and Black Ops (which was presented by a very friendly relaxed local group who let me and my son drop in and command a unit for a few turns). I remember there was an impressive looking Boer War display game, but display games do not generally hold the attention of 6 year olds (or me to be honest) for more than a few minutes. Overall it was enjoyable place to spend a few hours, but not for the whole family and I would not travel a long way for it.
The next closest thing to a Wargames Show I have been to is the UK Games Expo at the NEC which we tend to go to every year with some friends. This is good because of all the board and card games to try it is fun for wives and daughters who are not miniature wargamers. Although I did inevitably pick up a few new figures to paint, including from a stall selling 3d prints that had a cheap "lucky dip" random mini offer which was fun, the main point of this show is to try out games with a view to deciding whether they are worth buying.
One other stand at the Expo that was interesting was one that had a painting area and offered a free Reaper Bones miniature to paint and take home to finish, with a view to encouraging sales. Our boys and I spent a bit of time on this stand and it made a change from browsing and playing. I noticed Games Workshop at the Expos also offered something similar, but I am not sure whether it is common at traditional wargames shows. I appreciate no one is likely to get their best results in a busy hall using someone else's cheap brushes, but I found it quite relaxing to drop the bags, have a sit down and paint up a little memento of the day before moving on to something else.
I supose my conclusions are that from my perspective as some one with youngish children is that if I am going to spend most of a Saturday at a show I am probably going to have to take children along and possibly a wife. To keep them (and me) entertained there needs to be stuff to do, not just look at or buy.
On the buying front it is also true that I am unlikely to spend a lot of money on hobby stuff at a show because:
A) the internet, as James Morris says, means that I can find and buy pretty much anything I want using my phone; and
B) I live in a city with a few decent independent hobby shops so it is not difficult to pick up stuff that is hard or expensive to get by post (e.g. spray cans of paint/varnish); and
C) I suspect I have been in the hobby for much less time than most of the other posters on here, but I already feel as though I have a painting backlog that will take decades to shift! Apart from replenishing paint and brushes every so often I already have more figures and stuff to paint than I can really justify. I do still treat my self to a little something here or there but I cannot see myself spending £100s on figures for some time to come.
Just my thoughts of course, and my fellow forumers with different family situation/commitments (and possibly faster painting speeds!) may well have different perspectives.
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The maim wargame show I've attended over the last 20 years is MKWS, Campaign. My local area. Free entry. A few traders, participation games, competition games, show games, books, rules. There is also a bring and buy. The aim is to showcase the hobby to the general public. I'm not sure of the cost to put on or the cost for traders. It's where I choose terrain in the main and the odd figure.
Recently I've been to Salute and the old feeling of attending a big show came back. A lovely warm feeling!
My main reason for attending shows is looking for useful or unusual terrain. There are many manufacturers who you might never see advertisements for online.
It used to be that clubs put on shows to make a profit to buy terrain/ figures or subsidise monthly costs but I think those days are numbered if not dead. The advent of 3d printing may see shows closing in the future as manufacturers become scarce or none-existent.
A shame for future prospective gamers