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Miniatures Adventure => Colonial Adventures => Topic started by: Will Bailie on October 22, 2009, 10:04:41 AM
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Greetings, gentlemen and ladies,
I have acquired some Russian troops ca 1880 to expand my NWF gaming potential - specifically to allow alternate history Anglo-Russian Great Game conflicts! I like the idea of Russians with white gymnastica and green trousers, unfortunately, I have only seen this look on painted wargames figures. Can anyone provide some other sources that I can check out to confirm (or counter) this uniform? I would prefer on-line sources as I am hundreds of miles from the nearest library, and if I order books by mail they will likely take more than one month (maybe two) before they get here.
Thanks!
Will
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I remember to have seen this uniform in "Turkish Gambit", that is set 1877.
the Cossacks had blue Kuban dress
however it is only a movie
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Greetings, gentlemen and ladies,
I have acquired some Russian troops ca 1880 to expand my NWF gaming potential - specifically to allow alternate history Anglo-Russian Great Game conflicts! I like the idea of Russians with white gymnastica and green trousers, unfortunately, I have only seen this look on painted wargames figures. Can anyone provide some other sources that I can check out to confirm (or counter) this uniform? I would prefer on-line sources as I am hundreds of miles from the nearest library, and if I order books by mail they will likely take more than one month (maybe two) before they get here.
Thanks!
Will
I could have given you full details, but I have misplaced my Blandford "Uniforms Of Imperial Russia". Cost a small fortune, too >:(
If I recall correctly, they wore white tunics, red trousers and standard jackboots, cap etc in Persia, but my memory is shocking lately ::)
If I find it I'll PM you a full description.
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Askari miniatures has a painting guide for them:
http://www.askari-minis.com/webstore/product_info.php?cPath=44&products_id=114
to follow up what Gluteus Maximus wrote:
The cap is a kepi covered in white (also neckcover in white) and black belts.
Askari miniatures in their website have painted examples, good for start
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damn!
even more russian cavalry...
how do Askari miniatures go with Copplestone, Empress and Brigade??
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Thanks for the comments. White shirts and RED trousers? Any clues where the green trousers would have come from, as shown here:
http://www.oldgloryuk.com/disp_item.php?c=27&oc=30
Or did they change their uniforms between 1877 and 1900? See, this is why I want a better justification than, "well, this other guy painted them like that!"
Also, the figures I have are wearing the peaked cap (forgot the Russian name), rather than the Havelock-looking kepi, are these guys legit for 1880-ish?
Askari miniatures fit in ok with other figures, maybe a touch on the small side but not enough to bother me. I'm more concerned with the stiff, "toy soldier" poses. I only have French figures, can't comment on the Russians.
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x96/WillBailie/Miniatures/DSCN2620.jpg)
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x96/WillBailie/Miniatures/DSCN2619.jpg)
As always, thanks for the advice
W
The Askari figures are the Zouave and the Legionaire. I quite like the Zouaves, they are a key part of my WWI French army, but I'm not so keen on the Legion.
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thx for the pics
yep, they look a bit undernourished, but the proportions are right, so never mind I have more Russian Cavalry to choose from...
about the differing caps and the pants -
I could imagine a difference between standing army and conscripts/reservists ?
... or different regimental/arms uniform?
I know 3 movies about that period where the difference exists
I know for instance that at that time in Romania this difference existed.
But this is not knowledge, just guess
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Thanks for the comments. White shirts and RED trousers? Any clues where the green trousers would have come from, as shown here:
http://www.oldgloryuk.com/disp_item.php?c=27&oc=30
Or did they change their uniforms between 1877 and 1900? See, this is why I want a better justification than, "well, this other guy painted them like that!"
Also, the figures I have are wearing the peaked cap (forgot the Russian name), rather than the Havelock-looking kepi, are these guys legit for 1880-ish?
Possibly the red trousers were intended for a specific campaign, as was British practice with the various campaign-specific uniforms prior to the general adoption of standardised khaki? Ditto the cap and havelock, although they wore both peaked cap and kepi in the Russo-Turkish war, so maybe a mixture was possible. Maybe the white tunic and green trousers combo was the usual hot weather dress within the Russian territory?
I'm hoping someone more knowledgable can give us a definitive answer as I'm also intrigued by this question now :)
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OK guys!
Blandford Colour series book by Boris Mollo (published 1979) on Imperial Russian Uniforms says that red trousers-white shirt (gimnasterka) and kepi (shapka) with flaps was the tropical uniform for the units stationed in Turkestan. They had to adopt a new uniform, appropriate for the tropical climate.
I have seen somewhere that this uniform did not survive for long.
As for red trousers: Seems to be of local manufacture. Book says
"the trousers are of buffalo-skin dyed red known by Turkomen name chamari "
Since Mollos are authorities on the subject I take their word for those infos.
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OK, that sounds pretty authorative. Thanks, Argsilverson!
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thx @A
now red leather pants are surely the first thing I shall put on next time when I'm in Sudan....
seems the obvious choice
thousands of Russians can't be wrong right? (-;
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leather pants in Sudan? I am afraid hey will be ripped off immediately!
I believe they chose the leather pants just for extra protection (thorns, sharp rocks, low temperature at nigh etc)
But, I don't believe that the supplying corps of the time, was very effective on its choices! It seems that they were left without any supplies and they had to do something. They bought locally available materials. What they found: leather/buffalo-skin, so they immediately arrange for a good contract with some local suppliers to dye them red and make pants.
Another reason for the red colours at least in Turkestan. Traditional colour of the Russian uniforms was dark green. Turkestan had a majority of muslim population and green is a sacred colour for muslims. Maybe they wanted to change the colour, because muslims claimed that infidels should not wear green.
However, there is some similar uniform used in Russian-Turkish war . I doubt if the pants were of leather.
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"for extra protection (thorns, sharp rocks, low temperature at nigh etc)"
wouldn't be different in Sudan, but bloody warm
I was trying to joke ;)
actually leather is not that bad a choice, since pants are the first thing going to rags on campaign..
wouldn't go so far about the green and the infidels though
nobody murdered me in Sudan when I wore green and they have sharia there...
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The Russians did change the uniforms in the later 1890s at least in Siberia. Green tunics with green trousers, white tunics for summer wear. A white non-peaked white cap was the head gear. Line & rifle units were distinguished by the color of their shoulder bars. This was the uniform in the far east in use at the time of the boxer rebellion. For the 1880s in the near east they still wore the kepi with a white over cloth white tunics with red trousers.
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I've got a picture about russian in central asia in fall XIXth century:
(http://storage.canalblog.com/39/76/436629/37435124.gif)
Stéphane
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That's a great pic, Stephane. Thanks fo posting it :D
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Second that, great picture.
Osprey 241 Russian Army of the Crimean War has a picture of of a sergeant of the 33rd Moskovski Regiment in red pants. The text says that the pants were obtained in the Caucasus and worn by both the Moscow and Butyrski regiments.
Seems to confirm what was remarked before that the red pants were locally made and purchased.
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Here are some great paintings of the period by a Russian called Karazin:
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee247/sterlingmoose/Colonial%20Russian/Karazinfallofsamarkand.jpg)
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee247/sterlingmoose/Colonial%20Russian/KarazinKiva.jpg)
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee247/sterlingmoose/Colonial%20Russian/KarazinCrossingDesert.jpg)
Google search images 'Karazin' and it will give the Russian Wikipedia page as a link. you can zoom right in on the Wiki versions - the level of detail is exceptional.
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Here are some pics from various sources:
1869
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee247/sterlingmoose/Colonial%20Russian/russ1869a.jpg)
1869
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee247/sterlingmoose/Colonial%20Russian/rus1869b.jpg)
1873
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee247/sterlingmoose/Colonial%20Russian/russ1873a.jpg)
1873
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee247/sterlingmoose/Colonial%20Russian/russ1873.jpg)
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee247/sterlingmoose/Colonial%20Russian/5mangroup.jpg)
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Wow, Stephane and Sterling, thanks for the great artwork. Now I am going to have to re-direct my figure collecting! (that's the problem with learning things, you can't just let your preconceived ideas continue once you find out how wrong they were)
Looks like I'll be contacting Askari and/or Outpost for appropriate figures now.
Cheers!
W
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Yes, thanks to you also, Mr Moose.
These are wonderful Colonial resources on an obscure subject :D
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Possibly the red trousers were intended for a specific campaign, as was British practice with the various campaign-specific uniforms prior to the general adoption of standardised khaki? Ditto the cap and havelock, although they wore both peaked cap and kepi in the Russo-Turkish war, so maybe a mixture was possible. Maybe the white tunic and green trousers combo was the usual hot weather dress within the Russian territory?
I'm hoping someone more knowledgable can give us a definitive answer as I'm also intrigued by this question now :)
Sorry that I'm just catching up on this thread. Yes, the kepi was in the process of being replaced by the furashka (a Pan-Slavic effort!) during the Russo-Turkish War, and was completely replaced after the end of the war. But the kepi with havelock remained in use in Turkestan for some years. For example, the 1882 edition of "The Armed Strength of Russia" indicates that the furashka was the common undress headgear, but notes the special uniforms for Turkestan on page 118:
http://books.google.com/books?id=HqABAAAAQAAJ&dq=armed+strength+of+russia&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=06xXFB4FCB&sig=Udlx_Ef4so8wVz_bUQM8ci5qmfA&hl=en&ei=ueALS4r8JYH8tQPf4sSiAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false
I would have to go through the filing cabinet and all my copies of later copies of "The Armed Strength of Russia" to be sure, but if I recall correctly, the kepi drops out of use in about 1885. That was the year I had targeted for a fictional campaign; I remember painting up some Frontier Boxer Rebellion Russian troops in furashka, giving them red chambars!
Allen
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The uppermost Karazin picture is of the Fall of Samarkand. Wiki gives the date of this event as being 1868. The other pictures do however indicate that the uniform was retained into the 1880's.
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Sorry that I'm just catching up on this thread. Yes, the kepi was in the process of being replaced by the furashka (a Pan-Slavic effort!) during the Russo-Turkish War, and was completely replaced after the end of the war. But the kepi with havelock remained in use in Turkestan for some years. For example, the 1882 edition of "The Armed Strength of Russia" indicates that the furashka was the common undress headgear, but notes the special uniforms for Turkestan on page 118:
http://books.google.com/books?id=HqABAAAAQAAJ&dq=armed+strength+of+russia&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=06xXFB4FCB&sig=Udlx_Ef4so8wVz_bUQM8ci5qmfA&hl=en&ei=ueALS4r8JYH8tQPf4sSiAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false
I would have to go through the filing cabinet and all my copies of later copies of "The Armed Strength of Russia" to be sure, but if I recall correctly, the kepi drops out of use in about 1885. That was the year I had targeted for a fictional campaign; I remember painting up some Frontier Boxer Rebellion Russian troops in furashka, giving them red chambars!
Allen
Thanks, Allen! That's a great help.
"Furashka" - that's the name of the cap that I was trying remember :D
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I received my 1877 Russkis on Tuesday, and here is the first test figure, along with a Redoubt Russki for size comparison. It was easy enough to fit the havelock onto the kepi. The Outpost fellows are noticeably shorter than Redoubt's, but then so are many figures. (and it doesn't help that the Outpost fellow is leaning forward) They are also smaller than the Perrys, but it don't bother me as they will be in searate units. Outpost paint up very easily - I will enjoy getting these guys ready for table and will definitely be ordering more. Jeff is great to do business with!
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x96/WillBailie/Miniatures/Kandahar036.jpg)
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x96/WillBailie/Miniatures/Kandahar034.jpg)
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The look fine together as far as I'm concerned. The heads and rifles are approx the same size, which always helps figures look "in scale". I'd agree probably keep in separate units, but I'd have no problems using them in the same game :D
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Cheers, Gluteus. It's not so obvious in these photos, but the two figures have different equipment on their backs. That will show up more than the size difference. At any rate, it should be obvious that the ones with white coats are the Russians (as the British and Indians wear khaki, the Afghan regulars are in brown and the Pathans are, well, everyone else).
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A source with no authority but a wonderful film is Akira Kurosawa's Dersu Uzala. The officer is an army surveyor and the film is set in the early 1900s in Siberia.
It's a truly great film with no pulp or wargaming potential. And that, sometimes, is a good thing.
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If you like a slightly earlier look consider the expanding range from Outpost Wargames Service of Russians for the 1877-1878 Russo Turkish war, check out their own listing or for information about forthcoming releases check out the Greens photo file on the Yahoo Russo Turkish wars group.
Caucasian cossack foot, Ural cossack foot and Russian artillery crews are all due for release between Jan/Feb 2010 also coming out are Guard conversions of the existing line.
Regards,
Geoff
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Just received shipments from Eureka and Askari, and here is a comparison with Outpost. All figures are Russians from RTW Era (ca 1877)
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x96/WillBailie/Miniatures/DSCN0266.jpg)
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x96/WillBailie/Miniatures/DSCN0267.jpg)
From left to right, the figures are Eureka, Askari and Outpost, plus a Perry British infantryman for comparison. All figures are close enough for me to use them together. Personally, I like the Eureka models the best. Askari figures are definitely improving from their first offerings, and I'm looking forward to painting these. Askari uses a brittle metal, however - I have a couple of rifles that broke when I tried to straighten them out.
I'll eventually get around to painting these and will post the results then.