Lead Adventure Forum
Other Stuff => Workbench => Topic started by: Mick_in_Switzerland on January 14, 2023, 09:11:40 AM
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There is a lot of buzz in the hobby media (e.g. YouTube) about contrast paints etc
There is even a new name for this "Slap Chop".
This starts with black undercoat then overbrush mid grey then drybrush white.
I have done this in the past using Citadel Washes and inks and liked the results.
These are 3D resin prints from the Aliens Versus Humans Kickstarter.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51696017205_a36467cab0_k.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51695401713_da679e8d44_k.jpg)
Are the new paints significantly better than using Citadel Washes?
If yes, which is best - Citadel Contrast, Vallejo Xpress & Army Painter Speed Paints?
Thanks in advance
Mick
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I have stocked up GW contrast paints-quite pricy, but I have used the same technique as you usng washes and inks over preshaded models and with contrast paints you get excellent new effects and they cover better.
The Army Painter stuff I avoided after reading from several users that the paints activate again if touched by water/another color.
Vellejo might be a good middle ground, but my local shop didn’t have them yet.
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I’ve only used GW Contrast paints - and I’m impressed with them. I’ve slowly built up my stock of colours, generally going for more muted natural ones. They give great coverage - which is probably the biggest difference to a wash. They also go on very quickly and easily due to being very thin, but not drippy. And then you get decent shading from a single coat.
The only one I’ve been disappointed in is the dark grey - its probably too dark.
I have played with mixing the colours and this works well.
Varying the shade / tone of the base coat gives slightly different final colours too.
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Thank-you both
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I use the citadel contrast also, mainly over a like coloured basecoat or if I want some contrasting effect with a different base colour etc. However I do have speedpaints and I use them for extra colour depth especially the red, blue and yellow.
And as mentioned you do need to seal-it so it doesn't bleed through >:( again, for this I use matt-acrylic varnish (un-thinned).
Happy painting :D
Glen
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The Army Painter stuff I avoided after reading from several users that the paints activate again if touched by water/another color.
We have a few Citadel contrast paints, haven't tried the new Valejhos yet, but we do have the AP speed paints.
We heard about the possible reactivation, so followed the simple precaution of getting some cheap plastic art palettes, the ones with dimples round the outside to put paint in. We used a permanent felt tip pen to write the colour names next to each dimple, and now when we use them we put a few drops into the dimple on the palette. If old paint in the dimple reactivates, none gets wasted, so that's a plus in our book.
Does it reactivate? To a limited extent. In the dimple some colours do, but not completely.
On the figures we have painted? Not that we've really noticed. We try to do one careful coat and don't stray over the edges (happens a bit, always does, but who doesn't occasionally go over the edge?) and provided you allow the different coats to dry it doesn't cause any real problems. This week we've done 60 C17th 28mm in 2 2-hour painting sessions. Not quite finished, but another 2 hours might get us there. (there are 2 of us batch painting together).
We will spray varnish when they are done (allowing a good week to fully dry before we spray).
The "Hardened leather" colour really suits us for fast paint jobs on cavalry units, no messing with black-grey-white base, just rattle them into white primer before we start. I have no issues fielding lots of brown horses, especially when I'm putting them out in units of 12 (just keeping the command distinctive).
If you repeatedly go over some of them with a brush it might be more of an issue, but I think they were designed/intended for mass batch-painting, not "triad" painting (base, highlight, drybrush etc)
Just an opinion.
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> There is a lot of buzz in the hobby media (e.g. YouTube) about contrast paints etc
There's always buzz -- and then it fades away. Except the hundred bucks you spent for the paints is gone.
Anyone remember Scale 75? Was supposed to be another must-have paint brand. Big deal on a Dakka thread during the KS. Now, nobody talks about it.
Me, I use colored primers then a wash, followed by hobby paints for details. Sometimes I'll use craft paint as an undercoat (and for zenithal "priming", followed by a dark wash), and I use craft paints in the lid as wet palettes. Colored primers and craft paints are less expensive per ounce than hobby paints, especially when USA Air Supply has a sale on colored primers. Best part is that you can ease into this slowly (you probably already have brown craft paints for basing and terrain, now use it when you paint wood) so aren't making major purchases. I suspect that with speedpaint, I'll still take awhile since I paint to advanced tabletop and paint eyes, highlights, details, etc.
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Thank-you everybody.
@Cedric - I don't minding spending money on new paints if It allows me to get better results.
At the moment, I am not convinced that Contrast paints will make a big difference over using Citadel Shade Washes.
I think I will have to buy a few and try.
Please continue to to give your opinions and tips on this style of paint and its use.
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As someone who has only been back in the hobby for 9 months or so, I've found Contrast paints really useful to help speed up painting my dark age minis. For items such as leather, cloaks, tunics etc, I just find a single coat of a Contrast paint can get the job done. It's probably helped me get from 30 mins per mini down to sub 20 mins per mini. I don't care about the price. Time is more important than money. I've found that a combination of Pro acryl paints + Vallejo Air (both brushed on straigtht out of the dropper since they don't need thinning) plus Contrast paints is a time saver.
What contrast paints are not is "one thick coat and done" as Citadel seem to advertise. They just can't do everything. Contrast paints don't really help me with mail armour and hemets. They can be too bright and a bit too shiny for historical stuff.
They also fall into three clear categories. The ones which are really just washes. The ones that are quite opaque and just heavily pigmented paints / inks. It's only the third set that are really contrast paints. I've bought about 20 different colours but only a handful I really find essential and I use on every mini.
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What contrast paints are not is "one thick coat and done" as Citadel seem to advertise. They just can't do everything. Contrast paints don't really help me with mail armour and hemets. They can be too bright and a bit too shiny for historical stuff.
They also fall into three clear categories. The ones which are really just washes. The ones that are quite opaque and just heavily pigmented paints / inks. It's only the third set that are really contrast paints. I've bought about 20 different colours but only a handful I really find essential and I use on every mini.
Interesting, as that's pretty much been my own observation too. Out of curiosity, which 20 or so paints make your "essential" list please? :)
On costs... Contrast is actually quite competitive if you mostly do one layer and then pick out details. This is because one or two coats plus a few extreme highlights uses and wastes much less paint than more traditional methods, which offsets it higher starting cost. Plus, potentially, the time saved too. However, as soon as Contrast is essentially reduced in function to a basecoat, and then you shade/wash/highlight/etc as normal afterwards, you've not really gained all that much over just using the normal paints you already have.
Speedpaint does reactivate, and more than many care to admit. I experienced this with certain paints many years ago; it was a tedious and frustrating, and I have no desire whatsoever to ever use acrylic paints or inks that reactivate (even slightly) ever again. I know plenty of people get on with it just fine, but I don't think they are for everyone. I would certainly ensure people are aware of this too, as it's not fun to find out after you've bought and used them...
I have no experience of the Vallejo offerings, so will wait for general release to see.
Anyone remember Scale 75? Was supposed to be another must-have paint brand. Big deal on a Dakka thread during the KS. Now, nobody talks about it.
Well, past a certain point, everything to say has been said, and those who are interested enough have bought some and tried them out. After that, anybody new who's curious can still read the earlier reviews and/or buy some themselves. So really, I'd be more surprised if a particular paint range carried on provoking discussion many years later! For what it's worth, I have owned and used a few Scale 75 paints for a while now, and bought some more a few months ago - they do a lot of great "neutral" colours, and their bright colours (blues especially) are particularly vibrant.
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I use Contrast paints since they came out and used them steadily since then on preshaded miniatures. I combine this technique with the layering technique and like the rersults . I haven#t used the xpress from Vallejo, I tried the speed paints but got rid of them again as they activate each other and with water again.
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I've been using contrast paints mainly for fantasy minis, and I've been happy with the results.
It's not quite "one and done", but close enough. Painting large monsters with what are essentially washes is so much quicker, and looks just as good (tabletop standard, let's not get carried away).
As noted, they do vary in opacity and brightness, but the good ones are well worth the time saved. It has let me paint several groups (pink horrors, beastmen) that I have avoided for years due to the pain of painting them in a more traditional fashion.
I've stayed away from speedpaints, due to the reactivation reputation.
I haven't seen the Vallejo ones, but I will be trying them when I find them
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Anyone remember Scale 75? Was supposed to be another must-have paint brand. Big deal on a Dakka thread during the KS. Now, nobody talks about it.
Much the same as any paint line - once the community figures out which colours have the most useful formulation, they're the ones that crop up over and over again. At the moment Proacryl bold titanium white is the new hotness, but Scale75 still get mentioned a lot for the metallics.
to answer OP though - I've only used contrast but some colours are definitely better than others. The new Black Legion is better than Black Templar as well. They're another tool in the box and can save considerable time, but not a be-all and end-all.
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I have only used the Citadel Contrast paints, and I would say they're very hit and miss.
Increasingly I'm repainting (or adding to) a lot of minis I initially speed painted with contrast.
Where I do use them, its either as an ink wash or a base layer for modern/sci fi camo uniforms.
That said a few of the contrasts are very good. The Blood Angels Red is fantastic for instance and is a perfect base.
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I have been using Contrast and am now using Vallejo Xpress. I very much prefer the latter to the former: I find them consistent through the whole line, which can't be said of Contrast, and are much better at levelling so that if you apply them properly you won't have the odd staining that quite often Contrast leave on flat surfaces. They only cost about half... This about using them "as intended", ie with a single coat over the primer or the undercoat. I don't do drybrushing if possible, but I do a zenithal and over this a b/w sketch. I love that they have a consistency that allows you to go both ways, adding a second layer to increase saturation or diluting them up to the thinnest of glazes. They also work beautifully as a glaze through the airbrush for filtering or postshading. They are a staple in my workflow now.
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Me, I've only used Armypainter's Speedpaints at this point. I was lucky(?) enough to snag a Mega Set off an auction site for quite a bit less than a completely new set and it was probably only used for some testing, as nearly all pots were still completely full and only a few were probably a couple of squirts shy of being full.
This was before I was aware of the reactivation issue though. And had I known about this, I would probably not have bothered at all. As it is though, I now have a full 24 colours of them, a lot of which I can already tell I will probably never use ::)
I have worked with several of the colours by now, and even though the results were quite good, the reactivation is both an irritation (I encountered it several times while painting on/next to Speed Paints) and a deterrent (I don't want to encounter this again).
My first run in was a mild anoyance, and a lesson learned for the next time. The second time I did an entire unit instead of a single model, and the initial temporal gains are significant. But then I needed to spray varnish, and additionally, I needed to add some more highlights.
Yesterday I painted a test figure for a larger project. I used the 'slapchop' method, with a black undercoat, medium grey overall drybrush and a thin white zenithal drybrush, and then a single coat of black Speedpaint.
Which turned out way too dark for my purpose, but finishing the mini afterwards, I skipped the varnishing step and had no particular issues with reactivation. Mind; I did not overpaint any speedpainted surfaces this time, so that probably helps. Also; the colours next to it were also really dark (and pure black), so it might have done so, without me noticing...
All in all; I would not have bought this set, had I known the particular challenges of Speedpaints beforehand, but as I am learning to work with it, I do appreciate the results of this type of product and I might branch out into other brands eventually...
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@Vanth
I am very interested by your comments that the Vallejo Xpress are better and more consistent. I tend to prefer Vallejo paints over everything else anyway.
There is a stockist in Zurich, so next time I am in the city I will have a look at the colours and buy a few.
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I have the following
Army Painter Speedpaint Starter Set
Green Stuff World Intensity Inks (set 2)
Vallejo Game Colour Ink set
As you can see it appears I have more money than sense.
What do I think? In general I don't like the effect (apart from the Vallejo Inks but we'll get to them later) and figures I have slapped or white primed just look dirty or anaemic respectively.
Army Painter are very annoying as they bleed easily and all time time for me although the colours are stronger and I normally brush varnish so that's out of course. A deterrent? Definitely. Quicker - hell, no. I spend twice as long trying to make them look decent.
Green Stuff World - don't bleed, run or reactivate however I still don't like them as the paint job for a model. Great for heavy washes over over some colours though.
Have not tried Citadel - too expensive to be disappointed again.
Vallejo Inks I do like - they are like great flowing vibrant paint and on a white primer they do give darker recesses and lighter high points. They're great for beefing up the vibrancy of regular paint too.
But end of the day I still prefer a traditional base coat and wash (sometimes) followed by highlight as I paint to play not paint for painting's sake (and heretical as it may be I find painting a bit of a chore although it's nice to look at your little men at the end and think I did that).
I do yearn for a multi coloured paint that you just dip the model in though, perhaps I was just born 50 years too early :)
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Pauld: Indeed wouldn't that be nice ;) :D
One of my favorite GW contrast paints is the apothecary white, as someone who has never, ever got the hang of painting lots of white on a miniature, this for me is a game changer.
My Deathwing are now ready to stride across the table resplendent (YMMV) in something looking a lot more respectable than any of my previous attempts.
Glen
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Interesting, as that's pretty much been my own observation too. Out of curiosity, which 20 or so paints make your "essential" list please? :)
My most used Contrast is Snakebite Leather for any leatherwork and also for some clothes/cloaks. Aggaros Dunes is useful as a lighter version. Guilliman Flesh and Gore Gruntha Fur are also handy (though I don't really use them as Flesh or Fur tbh). Add in Black Templar and I can do all my horses fairly quickly. Militarium Green is useful for clothes/cloaks.
By contrast (excuse the pun), I've found Ultramarine Blue and Leviadon Purple fairly useless. In fact none of the Blues, Purple and Yellow really seem to work for me. The reds like Flesh Tearer and Blood Angels are nice colours but don't really seem to provide much Contrast. Basilicanum Grey has been difficult. It's really dark and when I try to lighten it with Contrast Medium, sometimes it's work perfectly and the next time appalling with no clear reason why.
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I use a few of GW's contrast paints; I bought them for use on terrain but have ended up using them on minis in certain situations (some of them definitely do a better job than others). I actually quite like Basilicum Grey or Black Templar over silver for a great dark armour/metal effect.
One of my favorite GW contrast paints is the apothecary white, as someone who has never, ever got the hang of painting lots of white on a miniature, this for me is a game changer.
I agree, I think this one works very well. It does produce the perfect shading for white. I usually put a little extra white highlight afterwards.
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Is there a conversion chart from contrast paints to vallejo xpress ones?
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That would certainly be helpful, even though the two lines are not 1:1, so there will be discrepancies.
But I would be even more interested in a conversion chart putting the current/old Vallejo Game Color line versus their new one, because I read they're cutting a significant amount of colours and washes and slightly changing a bunch more.
Now I can work with consistencies changing etc, but some of those colours will be gone soon and several of those I use on a very regular basis (Green Wash and Heavy Orange; I'm looking at you!)...
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It is really not difficult to make your own. Acrylic medium and water are your friends.
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It is really not difficult to make your own. Acrylic medium and water are your friends.
I've used thinned matte medium and diluted Flow Aid to get the effect. The medium works the best, but still not exactly like contrast paints; very close though.
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I've been using GW Contrast paints since they came out. Some I use frequently, some I don't , but all have been used at some point.
I avoided the Army Painter Speed Paints at first, but it seems the reactivation issues have been resolved and I've added Holy White, Grim Black, Runic Grey and Gravelord Grey to my palette.
I'd recommend them all.
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Only used contrast by gw, not keen to be honest, maybe I’m too stuck in my ways how I paint but I find I’m constantly tidying up using contrast, I tried yellow over white, whilst it was an easy quick paint job as soon as I started painting darker colors and accidentally put darker paint onto the yellow I found it hard to match the same finish again….. I tend to use the black mist as it’s good over gunmetal colors for a darker shade or lining in, same with brown….
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Only used contrast by gw, not keen to be honest, maybe I’m too stuck in my ways how I paint but I find I’m constantly tidying up using contrast, I tried yellow over white, whilst it was an easy quick paint job as soon as I started painting darker colors and accidentally put darker paint onto the yellow I found it hard to match the same finish again…..
For me that is a big downside; you have to be super tight with your painting to get the best result (and I am not that tidy :D). I think the other thing to keep in mind is that GW's Contrast range is designed to go over resin and plastic. Like using washes and inks, you get a 'dirty' effect over metal as there is usually some pitting in metal casts (especially from older moulds).
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For me that is a big downside; you have to be super tight with your painting to get the best result (and I am not that tidy :D). I think the other thing to keep in mind is that GW's Contrast range is designed to go over resin and plastic. Like using washes and inks, you get a 'dirty' effect over metal as there is usually some pitting in metal casts (especially from older moulds).
I had this, too, when I started and then borke off. Since then I have talked with others and experimented and now am using a lot of contrast paints with some normal colors for highlights plus glazes and washes and love it very much.
You can skip 99% of these effects with a good preshading (what is now called „slapchop“). The quickest way is white + brown wash. The wash will dosome lining and smoothe the transitions.
I’ve tested black + drybrushes of gray and white, white + brown wash + yellow/green drybrushing, yesterday even with pink!
You can achieve very nice effects with that and dont have those white spots on the model.
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You can skip 99% of these effects with a good preshading (what is now called „slapchop“). The quickest way is white + brown wash. The wash will dosome lining and smoothe the transitions.
Interesting....so a white primer and then some Agrax Earthshade or Aly's Brown Liquid Mix or something similar diluted?
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Interesting....so a white primer and then some Agrax Earthshade or Aly's Brown Liquid Mix or something similar diluted?
In my experience that’s the easiest solution. And then you can add highlights by drybrushing with the colors you want. My Nurgle stuff was basecoated white (with a normal brush), Agrax Earthshade, a light green drybrush and a white drybrush:
https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=108985.90
Then everything is just one layer of Contrast paint and some highlights. I have about 20-30 min time to paint at the moment. Max. So I’m really happy with those Contrast stuff.
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I went in hard when Contrast was released and I loved it straight from the start. Great coverage, nice saturated colours, good depth in the colours and the initial range already had a lot of excellent colours.
Since using them I have sped up my painting a lot and I am very happy with the results.
For most of my miniatures they are my main starting point. For most I do:
1. Prime black
2. Zenithal prime with white ink
3. Dunk all surfaces with Contrast
4. Apply 1-2 highlights
Done. Goes very fast and I just like the effect a lot. I use it for bright finishes, but also for darker looks. Here some examples:
Bloodborne
(https://paintoholic.nl/____impro/1/images/bbhunter1.jpg)
HeroQuest
(https://paintoholic.nl/____impro/1/images/hq_orc5.jpg)
Kingdom Death: Monster
(https://paintoholic.nl/____impro/1/images/kdm_manhunter1.jpg)
Cyberpunk
(https://paintoholic.nl/____impro/1/images/cybercivvie11.jpg)
Deadzone
(https://paintoholic.nl/____impro/1/images/psychotroid.jpg)
Chronicle X
(https://paintoholic.nl/____impro/1/images/hayden1.jpg)
Walking Dead
(https://paintoholic.nl/____impro/1/images/dale.jpg)
Warhammer Troll
(https://paintoholic.nl/____impro/1/images/square/hq_troll1.jpg)
All follow the same procedure.
For brighter miniatures I go with a pure white primer to get maximum OOMPH. This works so well on ranges like Masters of the Universe, where you want the bright saturated look. Example:
Masters of the Universe: Battlegrounds
(https://paintoholic.nl/____impro/1/images/motumanatarms1.jpg)
Deadzone
(https://paintoholic.nl/____impro/1/images/aberration1.jpg)
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Wow - they look good :-*
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Malebolgia is truly a master of Conrast painting :- Those MotU got me into trying Contrast paints for serious and invest into the MotU: Battleground set.
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They do look great! Part of the take-home message for me is that to get really good results with those paints it is not just a matter of slopping it on - the primer/ undercoat matters and some strategic highlights add a lot.
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They do look great! Part of the take-home message for me is that to get really good results with those paints it is not just a matter of slopping it on - the primer/ undercoat matters and some strategic highlights add a lot.
Yes, that does really a lot! At first I was also disappointed. It’s not just paint one layer and be ready…however, as Malebolgia has shown, you can do a lot with one *really thick*coat of Contrast + highlights or you preshade and then use contrast. Both methods work and give pretty good results. My MotU aren’t by far as good as Malebolgia‘s but I did them while taking a day off and playing with my sick 3year old daughter…it can really quicken painting a lot!
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In case anyone was wondering: these are by far master pieces, but for me they are okay. And they were basecoated by spray, one thick layer of contrast paint (really thick), then a few details like Merman’s amulet. No zenithal priming, nothing. And all with a 3 year Old accompanying me and getting very excited about Daddy’s toys.
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Cheers lads! And yes, excactly what DivisMal says...a zenithal primer*, thick layers of Contrast and 1-2 highlights give great results and is fast to do. The main drawback is you need to be tidy, because otherwise you get stains where you don't want them. And it often helps to do at least two miniatures at the same time. This way you can block in the Contrast on number 2 while the paint dries on number 1. Because the Contrast needs to be dry before applying the next colour, otherwise they often mix and give odd results. A hair dryer also helps a lot!
* You can also do this with other colours for different funky effects! Like with a dark purple from underneath and ice yellow or ivory from the top, instead of black and white. This gives a totally different effect and works well.
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Here is an interesting YouTube video from Keir at Broadsword Wargaming comparing four types of speed paints.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8VwiBV-oJY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8VwiBV-oJY)
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I watched the vid already Mick and she doesn't say much of anything....depends on the color....not much help....and her advice of 'buy them all' even done in jest isn't really helpful. Overall, even her opinion was to stick with Citadel/GW paints.
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That about sums it up. Granted though: it was kind of helpful to see the application and colour- and effect differences.
Also: good move to let her be in front of the camera instead of her partner :D
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bit of a bewildering range of techniques discussed above (def. going to try Divismal's alt. preshade tech. tho').
But all the examples look fantastic.
And I would say that Mick's first ones, using the 'old' paints, are right up there.
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At the end of the day it all boils down to what one likes. If it looks good & you like it, then it is ok. Whichever method or medium one uses.
I feel that the hobby has became a technical/chemistry exercise. Not saying that this is a bad thing.
I have been painting minis for the past 45 years or so, started with Humbrol & Hales Pactra enamels & oil colour..
and still one of my favourite mediums is humbrol acrylic paint & windsor & newton shellac based inks.
Having said that, Contrast does have a plus for being a fast effective, bright colours, way to paint.
As a side note, if you want to make your own shades/washes use Limestone acrylic clear sealer, matte medium, flow improver & inks.Mix measures up to one's choice.
Z
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Thank-you all for your comments.
I have bought some of the Vallejo Xpress paints and am experimenting with them.
Still not sure but definitely worth a few experiments.