Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: Pattus Magnus on January 18, 2023, 09:38:02 PM
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I’m curious about what models to use for these folks. They have associated with the Asian Greeks for at least several hundred years at that point (and Herodotus claims they invented some military kit the Greeks use), so would the models just be Greek hoplites? Is there any evidence for them using distinguishing features or modified hoplite equipment?
Any advice would be great!
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Given the location of Caria and the heavy Greek influence the region had been under for several centuries, I would stick with standard hoplite equipment. You could include more Asian aspects of dress as it was heavily exposed to eastern trade, but otherwise go with standard Greek equipment.
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I’ve used these from Gripping Beast.
Very nice too.
‘Carian’ and Lykian appear somewhat interchangeable?
I’ve used the other figures as Phyrigian troops,
Victrix Persian body
Dacian head
Gallic cloak
Numidian shield and javelins.
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Thanks both for the responses!
David H, that is pretty well what I was thinking, too. Unless someone chimes in to tell me that Carians definitely had some features that would distinguish them from hoplites, I’ll carry on along those lines.
Tim Haslam, thanks for pointing out the Lycians, I don’t think I have seen those. I think you’re right, and they could fit right in. I would probably use the Lycians as ‘light’ or city militia, because the Carian mercenaries who went abroad (and probably were higher class full time warriors) were usually noted for heavy armour. I might use some plastic hoplites for the ‘professionals’ and try using some helmeted heads from Persian sets to bring in the eastern influence.
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Pattus, the only references and illustrations I can find are in the Osprey "The Persian Army" and the Montvert title of almost the same name. Both are quite old now so I don't know if they are still viewed as "accurate". Osprey shows a Lykian "sickle man" equipped like a hoplite with bronze greaves, bronze corselet and a plumed helmet, plus a an embossed bronze shield that looks smaller than a hoplon. He is armed with a bronze "sickle" or one-handed falx. Unfortunately not much clue to the sources. The Montvert has plate showing a Lykian infantryman exactly as per the Gripping Beast figures in the photo, plus a comment in the text that many Lydians would have looked like Greek hoplites but some may have worn "Persian" trousers.
Regards.
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The main difference between Caria and Lykia is that the former was colonised by Greeks and the latter populated by Persians, and fought for them.
The western coast of Anatolia would have been heavily Hellenised due to all the trade contact with Greece, just look at the architecture, but you have to assume local culture would impact daily attire. I think you have it right by mixing in some Persian heads, and maybe a few trousered legs?
Your choice, and there is no one to prove you wrong ;)
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I think regular Mercenary Hoplite models will do the job. They strike me as following the "normal" Greek Hoplite tradition.
However, a few Persian helmets and trousers sounds like a capital idea!
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Apologies, the second group of figures are meant to be Kappadokians.
Got mixed up with all these subject races!
lol
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as suggested, I'd probably just use regular hoplites mixed with some lighter skirmish type troops. I always picture those in revolt having access to lots of stones to hurl at military forces. Seems to be the case from ancient times right into the modern day.
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The key difference maybe head gear. Otherwise Karians/Carians are reputed to have originated some hoplite gear.
Duncan Head’s Montvert shows a hoplite style with an unusual helmet style which may be a rarity or speculative. Other speculations about Karian marines and troops would be the conical Persian helmet with Drepana sickle sword or a soft tiara.
Anyway it’s all on this page for your perusal:
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Thanks for all the follow up information and suggestions. The plates for the Lykians are probably a good place for me to start from. As far as the Persian influence in Caria goes, it was there, but later than the Greeks and probably not as extensive- both the Carians and Ionian Greeks became Persian subjects at around the same time. During the Ionian revolt the Carians seem to have fought on both sides at different points. Late in the war they fought two pitched battles against the Persians near the city of Mylasa (and lost), then the survivors fell back into the highlands on the Halicarnassus peninsula (part of the Carian heartland) and wiped out Persian force in an ambush. THEN, the Carians are rewarded by the Persian satrap with a land grant after the siege of Miletus, presumably for good service. Later, some of the Persian naval leaders at Artemesion and Salamis were Carians.
I think it’s actually fairly easy to reconcile that - the Carians were noted as mercenaries and showed up in a lot of foreign wars. They would have been vicious, but not necessarily well organized in defense of their homeland. Once an agreement was reached with the new ‘big power’ in the region, they signed up again to fight elsewhere. If a client had the money for the fee, Carians weren’t very bothered about ‘sides’, since they didn’t see themselves as Greek or Persian (even with places like Halicarnassus and Miletus, where they lived alongside Greeks for centuries they don’t seem to have been really assimilated, more like parallel communities exploiting different niches).
In any case, they may make an interesting force for conflicts in the late 6th-early 5th C period!
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MiniFigs still do the Lykian Marine figure
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Khusru2, thank you for pointing out the Minifigs Lycians, I didn’t know about those. The website says those are 25mm - would I be correct in assuming they are quite a bit smaller than modern 28mm figures? Most of my Greek and Persian wars collection are 28mm sized :?
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Pattus, unless I am mistaken these Minifigs date back to the 1970s/80s so are very definitely "small 25mm" plus are in a very different sculpting style to modern 28s. I wouldn't even mix them in the same army.
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Thanks for clarifying, that’s what I was worried about. I’ll need to stick with 28mm figures.
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Essex make a Lydian Hoplite, almost identical to the one JJ posted above.
Essex are old figures, but can still mix due to their size, nice and chunky!
I’m using the newer Lydian Hoplite supplied by Blitzkrieg Models in resin.
Nice.
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Excellent, thanks for pointing those out!
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Essex make a Lydian Hoplite, almost identical to the one JJ posted above.
Essex are old figures, but can still mix due to their size, nice and chunky!
I’m using the newer Lydian Hoplite supplied by Blitzkrieg Models in resin.
Nice.
I couldn't find these on their site. Do you have a link.
Are your Lydian's going to be tattooed?
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Minifigs figures are great! So many varieties. They did everything in Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars. However, they are small compared to 28mm plus pushing 30mm figures of today.
However I’m still brazen enough to use Minifigs as levies on thick bases. They still fight or run as well the others. If somebody could scan and scale them as resin figures what a wonderful addition that would make.
I forgot ESsex they too have some nice variants and aren’t as small as Minifigs.
Persians get the shaft. Companies now make immortals regulars and cavalry and then they are done. None of the myriads of nations.
Vendel (now Thistle & Rose) have some varieties of different looking Persians in big chunky 28’s. Their Lycians are well done and with guess swaps could be Carians. But the heads are big a thick and the metal is quite a chop. Good luck.
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Jjonas, you almost make me nostalgic for Minifigs! As you say their range was excellent, based on the illustrations in the various WRG books. Very consistent in scale ( unlike Hinchliffe), and they didn't have Garrison's telegraph pole sized weapons. However mine went to various bring-and-buys many years ago.
I guess the problem with the "myriad of nations" is the commercial return on sculpting and producing such figures.
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I'd quite like a unit of Egyptian Marines from Vendel miniatures, Thistle and Rose.
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I'd quite like a unit of Egyptian Marines from Vendel miniatures, Thistle and Rose.
Me too as a matter of fact!
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I still have different types from MiniFigs G&P & M&Punic Wars ranges. I did sell a couple of spear & shield types from the Persian range.
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This website is brilliant for comparing old and newer miniatures in the same Persian units. I think it gives a fair impression of the differences.
https://bucellarii.blogspot.com/2020/02/early-and-late-achaemenid-persians.html
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Jjonas, Thanks. Quite a nostalgia trip for me. I don't think I've seen those Greenwood and Ball Immortals or Hinchliffe Cardaces since my local bricks and mortar shop closed in Liverpool back in the late 1970s. They had display cabinets with examples of all the Hinchliffe and G&B figures. The Minifigs range was too big so you had to make do with a paper copy of their catalogue before ordering!
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Like Bucellari I was lucky enough to snaffle a unit of the (then) Vendel Egyptian marines. Apart from T&R, Footsore has a threesome in their Mortal Gods range - https://footsoreminiatures.co.uk/products/egyptian-marines. Eureka also make a similar figure (2 options).
Footsore are expensive but if you wait until a sale they become quite competitive - I bought some of their Immortals in a 3 pack for 2 deal awhile ago.
Very much enjoying this thread as I have my early Achaemenids in a (longish) painting queue..........
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Very much enjoying this thread as I have my early Achaemenids in a (longish) painting queue..........
Persians are a long term relationship. Just when you are done with them, they lure you back. New models help, but the box of old miniatures in the closet will continuously beckon.