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Miniatures Adventure => The Second World War => Topic started by: Dubar on January 28, 2023, 11:34:40 PM

Title: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Dubar on January 28, 2023, 11:34:40 PM
Anybody using these rules?

I bought and downloaded them today to try and use with a box of 1/35 stuff I found the other day, must have had these since 1990, except for the Dragon Sdkfz 250 which was offered in 2000.  I also have a Schwimmwagen, a MKIV Ausf G Panzer, a Sdkfz 222, a PAK40, a M8 GMC and a jeep.  Mainly I'll be using just the soldiers, but it never hurts to have some "props" on the battlefield!  Probably going to get together a squad of Brits and a squad of Russians just to switch off now and then.

My interest lays in squad-level, skirmish rules and have always wanted to try using 1/35 scale soldiers doing it.  Reading the rules I think they were meant for 28mm and smaller, but I see no problem going up the scale either.  I'm going to try using the rules just as they are instead of changing distances for the larger scale.
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Gunner Dunbar on January 29, 2023, 03:02:54 AM
Sounds like fun, I have a box of 1/35 figures in storage somewhere, must be 300-400 figs, 95 WWII, but I need to start another scale/genre like I need another hole in the head, there’s also Nuts, haven’t played either.
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: bluewillow on January 29, 2023, 07:34:45 AM
Yes, I gave a friend in Sydney who skirmishes at this scale. I built him a lot of buildings for his games.

Cheers
Matt
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Dubar on January 29, 2023, 11:37:28 AM
I read over the rules last night.  Really like the way the troops and equipment are generated, might incorporate them in my homemade modified rules.

I only found 2 Youtube videos but both showed how the game is played very well.
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Dubar on January 29, 2023, 11:43:12 AM
It also sounds like the "5 Men In Kursk" has more in-depth rules, 1 of the videos mentioned some things that I didn't notice in the Normandy ruleset, or the guy in the video was using another name for the section of rules he mentioned.

Not sure why the author didn't simply call them out as different versions, he was playing Germans and Americans in the Kursk game so it isn't theater specific.
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Dubar on January 29, 2023, 11:54:12 AM
Sounds like fun, I have a box of 1/35 figures in storage somewhere, must be 300-400 figs, 95 WWII, but I need to start another scale/genre like I need another hole in the head, there’s also Nuts, haven’t played either.

WOW!!!  I may have 40 figures total.

I didn't want to spend a lot on something I may not enjoy (who am I kidding?), I just want to see how it is using 1/35 scale figures on my 4'x6' battlefield.  I think I can use the trees I presently use for 28mm gaming, but need to build a couple of buildings in 1/35 to give them something to explore.  I've made decent buildings (for my O-scale railroad) before using Strathmore board. Easy to cut and glue and it accepts paint well, although a laser cutter would be nice for making buildings out of MDF (or even use it on the Strathmore).

Speaking of figures...anyone modify their figures by heating and bending?  I've done it in the past by holding the piece over a candle flame until it's soft enough to bend, but it usually distorts the details.  Can a heat gun be used?
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: rimfire86 on January 29, 2023, 08:30:59 PM
I’ve been playing 5 men at Kursk in 1/32 scale for many years, this has allowed me to get some use of my old Airfix figures. My group has simply tripled the ranges and movement, everything else is done as per the written rules. The larger figure’s really make a game up close and personal
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Dubar on January 30, 2023, 12:31:33 PM
I'm going to play a game or 2 using my 28mm figs, then move up to the big boys.  With a 4x6 ft table tripling ranges/movement may be too much, but doubling them sounds doable.  Other than moving, throwing grenades, and shooting pistols, I can't think of anything else that would require changes to the range.  Rifles, SMGs, LMGs, etc should be able to fire as long as the target can be seen.  I'll know more once I get into it.

I recently got a 1/32 New Ray jeep.  I was going to buy a 1/35 jeep but at half the price I figured why not, plus it's a nice looking, diecast model already put together and painted/decaled.  It does look a tad big next to a 1/35 Marder III Ausf H but the 1/35 figures seem OK by it.

I would start with using my 1/35 figs but I want to paint them all first.
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Gunner Dunbar on January 30, 2023, 01:34:30 PM
WOW!!!  I may have 40 figures total.

I didn't want to spend a lot on something I may not enjoy (who am I kidding?), I just want to see how it is using 1/35 scale figures on my 4'x6' battlefield.  I think I can use the trees I presently use for 28mm gaming, but need to build a couple of buildings in 1/35 to give them something to explore.  I've made decent buildings (for my O-scale railroad) before using Strathmore board. Easy to cut and glue and it accepts paint well, although a laser cutter would be nice for making buildings out of MDF (or even use it on the Strathmore).

Speaking of figures...anyone modify their figures by heating and bending?  I've done it in the past by holding the piece over a candle flame until it's soft enough to bend, but it usually distorts the details.  Can a heat gun be used?
Plastics are fairly easy to convert without risk ruin with candle flame, just cut and glue, use a little GS to add folds in the cloth at the joints, yeah I sometimes go overboard in collecting things.
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Billchuck on January 30, 2023, 02:04:48 PM


Not sure why the author didn't simply call them out as different versions, he was playing Germans and Americans in the Kursk game so it isn't theater specific.

They are (slightly) different games. Normandy is intended for about 5 figures per side. Kursk is squad vs squad, with maybe a vehicle to spice things up. There are some changes in the mechanics to accommodate the difference in scope.
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Kikuchiyo on January 30, 2023, 08:40:50 PM
This sounds like just the thing for a small travel game
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Sarmor on February 04, 2023, 08:54:59 PM
Haven't tried Normandy, but I played a single test game of Five Men at Kursk a couple of years ago and oh boy, it was weird… Shooting turned out to be pretty ineffective, but at one point one of the US paras charged a poor German grenadier and, thanks to some really good dice rolls, eliminated 1/4 or maybe even 1/3 of the enemy squad in a single activation (since IIRC after winning close combat you can charge at another enemy if they're close enough).  lol
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Dubar on February 05, 2023, 12:13:24 PM
Haven't tried Normandy, but I played a single test game of Five Men at Kursk a couple of years ago and oh boy, it was weird… Shooting turned out to be pretty ineffective, but at one point one of the US paras charged a poor German grenadier and, thanks to some really good dice rolls, eliminated 1/4 or maybe even 1/3 of the enemy squad in a single activation (since IIRC after winning close combat you can charge at another enemy if they're close enough).  lol

I agree.  I played a couple of games using my 28mm figs and had mainly misses.  Might try to incorporate percentage dice and distance rules instead of rolling for 1's and 6's.  Like most rules, it all depends on the roll of the dice.

Having played using what I would call the basic move/fire rules, the 100 pages (rules and companion) can be whittled down to 4 pages or less for a quick game.
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Freddy on February 05, 2023, 02:33:44 PM
Do not try to bend plastics imho, use cuts and green stuff.

I am also gonna try these rules with my 1/35 models (see other thread), glad to hear that I am not the only one who finds these "something worthwhile only happens at 6" rules of FiveCore weird, I will replace the basic combat mechanics with my own. But the rest is cool, I really like the activation system.
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Dubar on February 05, 2023, 03:47:11 PM
I was even thinking about simply using the distance to a target and roll percentage dice.  In order to "Score" the roll has to be equal to or greater than the distance.  So if you can see a target 45" away then you have to roll (I'm using 2 ten-sided dice) a 45 or higher in order to "Score".  If you're 9" away a 9 or higher.  I have a 48"x72" table so I could possibly have a target 72" away and would have to roll a 72 or higher to Score.

If you "Score", roll the KILL die to see if the target is temporarily Down or Out of Action.
If it's a "Miss", roll the SHOCK die to see if the target Flinches or Bails.

Might need some tweaking but sounds playable.
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: MaleGriffin on February 05, 2023, 04:58:19 PM
I like Dubar's idea and will try it out in my next WWII skirmish game.
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Freddy on February 05, 2023, 05:22:18 PM
I was even thinking about simply using the distance to a target and roll percentage dice.  In order to "Score" the roll has to be equal to or greater than the distance.  So if you can see a target 45" away then you have to roll (I'm using 2 ten-sided dice) a 45 or higher in order to "Score".  If you're 9" away a 9 or higher.  I have a 48"x72" table so I could possibly have a target 72" away and would have to roll a 72 or higher to Score.

If you "Score", roll the KILL die to see if the target is temporarily Down or Out of Action.
If it's a "Miss", roll the SHOCK die to see if the target Flinches or Bails.

Might need some tweaking but sounds playable.
But how many Kill or Shock dice do you roll? With 1-2 it is even less likely to have effect than with the base rules.
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Dubar on February 06, 2023, 09:52:59 AM
But how many Kill or Shock dice do you roll? With 1-2 it is even less likely to have effect than with the base rules.

Hehe...That's the "Might need some tweaking" part, haven't thought that far ahead yet  o_o
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Freddy on February 06, 2023, 06:04:13 PM
Hehe...That's the "Might need some tweaking" part, haven't thought that far ahead yet  o_o

Distance is an important factor, if not the most important for hitting a target. But in my house rules the weapons have range bands (usually 3, close-regular-far), this way you can determine the target number by a short look in most cases, using the precise distance value itself bogs down the game with the constant need of measurements.

I am also not a great fan of the Shock mechanics of 5Core, yes, psychological effect is important but we are dealing here with live ammunition, a shot unable to kill is just weird. Bolt Action and similar games usually get the criticism of being unrealistically bloody, but close range firefights (what they simulate) usually are pretty bloody, just not every battle is fought from that close.
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Dubar on February 07, 2023, 01:01:59 AM
Distance is an important factor, if not the most important for hitting a target. But in my house rules the weapons have range bands (usually 3, close-regular-far), this way you can determine the target number by a short look in most cases, using the precise distance value itself bogs down the game with the constant need of measurements.

I am also not a great fan of the Shock mechanics of 5Core, yes, psychological effect is important but we are dealing here with live ammunition, a shot unable to kill is just weird. Bolt Action and similar games usually get the criticism of being unrealistically bloody, but close range firefights (what they simulate) usually are pretty bloody, just not every battle is fought from that close.

Agree.  I have a collection of WW2 bolt-action rifles and laugh every time I look at the marking on the sights.  To me a target at 100yds is small, I can't imagine trying to hit anything at 1000yds.

I have Bolt Action and have re-written the rules to suit my style of play, now I've done the same thing with 5 Men In Normandy, the Shock mechanics have been dropped also.

I'm currently playing a game using my vastly modified 5MiN rules (no roll-playing fluff) and so far I managed to kill a German NCO 1st turn, and wounded 2 other Germans while taking hits on 2 of my G.I.s.  I have 8 Germans (1 medic) and 9 Americans (1 medic).  I'm finding I have to use a lot of markers to keep track of what each soldier is doing and also what the consequences of being shot are.  It's time consuming so I'm trying to whittle things down to a manageable level.  There's a bit of Bolt Action and 5MiN that you can detect in my home rules, but just barely.

I use range bands in my modified Bolt Action rules, but it bothers me that 1" of difference put you in another range band.  So far using percentage dice tied to actual distance (plus modifiers: running, shooting while wounded, soft cover, hard cover) seems to be working well.
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Freddy on February 07, 2023, 08:53:32 PM
Agree.  I have a collection of WW2 bolt-action rifles and laugh every time I look at the marking on the sights.  To me a target at 100yds is small, I can't imagine trying to hit anything at 1000yds.
My experience comes from hunting, but yes, we usually do not shoot for above 200 meters even with a scoped rifle. It is not the technical capability of course, but the shot has to be "sure", also the animal has to be clearly identifiable.
Quote
I use range bands in my modified Bolt Action rules, but it bothers me that 1" of difference put you in another range band.
For larger teams half the guys within half out of the range border makes justice in the end. In my rules the target numbers are usually 9/10/13 for the three ranges, so no big diff at least for the short an the regular. (d10 based system where you hit by BS+d10 being over the target number)

One more thought about the "shock" dice: it indeed does make sense for squad based games, where one model/base represents more soldiers, 1-2 casualities not changing the effectiveness of the unit too much, but having a great psychological effect on the lucky survivors. For 1 on 1 systems it does not make sense in my opinion.
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Pattus Magnus on February 07, 2023, 09:17:36 PM
For the sights on the old bolt action combat rifles, I wonder if their usefulness is more for achieving fire density when a section is firing as a unit. The section leader has his folks set the range on the sights for the distance where the enemy is, designates a target and has the section execute 10-rounds-rapid. With a ten man section, that’s similar fire density to an mg firing half a belt (or a Bren firing 3 magazines). At longer distances the sights help ensure the rounds are at least on the correct trajectory to be close to the enemy, but the main point is to achieve suppression. To put it another way, the marked sights on an old military rifle are primarily a tool to improve unit-level fire coordination rather than for individual marksmanship (although some shooters with excellent eyesight probably could use them for that as well).
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Dubar on February 08, 2023, 01:26:01 AM
For the sights on the old bolt action combat rifles, I wonder if their usefulness is more for achieving fire density when a section is firing as a unit. The section leader has his folks set the range on the sights for the distance where the enemy is, designates a target and has the section execute 10-rounds-rapid. With a ten man section, that’s similar fire density to an mg firing half a belt (or a Bren firing 3 magazines). At longer distances the sights help ensure the rounds are at least on the correct trajectory to be close to the enemy, but the main point is to achieve suppression. To put it another way, the marked sights on an old military rifle are primarily a tool to improve unit-level fire coordination rather than for individual marksmanship (although some shooters with excellent eyesight probably could use them for that as well).

Could be, a volley of lead from multiple rifles at distance could have an effect.  Spray and pray!!!

I just concluded the game I mentioned earlier (it took me longer than necessary) and in the end I had 1 rifleman and the medic left on each side!!!  The G.I. did managed to "capture the bridge" only because the German did not move onto the bridge but remained stationary at the foot of the bridge.  The last turn had him stationary (aiming) at a target instead of moving.  One thing I learned was to use as much cover as often as possible, don't get caught out in the open.

During the course of action I was constantly making changes to my rules, when I saw that something wasn't working like I thought it should.  Plus solo play seems to double the amount of time it takes to activate both sides by myself.
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Freddy on February 08, 2023, 08:39:55 PM
For the sights on the old bolt action combat rifles, I wonder if their usefulness is more for achieving fire density when a section is firing as a unit. The section leader has his folks set the range on the sights for the distance where the enemy is, designates a target and has the section execute 10-rounds-rapid. With a ten man section, that’s similar fire density to an mg firing half a belt (or a Bren firing 3 magazines). At longer distances the sights help ensure the rounds are at least on the correct trajectory to be close to the enemy, but the main point is to achieve suppression. To put it another way, the marked sights on an old military rifle are primarily a tool to improve unit-level fire coordination rather than for individual marksmanship (although some shooters with excellent eyesight probably could use them for that as well).
Yes, on unit level they usually shot to the advancing enemy line. But 1vs1 use was the norm, also non-military rifles had the same type of sights. I have the user manual of an old Mosin-Nagant, it has clear instructions against each target type, from planes to attacking cavalry.
+soldiers of pre-ww1 armies had much better shooting training than the 20th century standard, too bad these soldiers were massacred in the first days of ww1 by open assaults against machine guns.
Quote
During the course of action I was constantly making changes to my rules, when I saw that something wasn't working like I thought it should.  Plus solo play seems to double the amount of time it takes to activate both sides by myself.
Changing rules mid-game is normal, just do not forget taking notes :)
Btw I find solo gaming faster, the only slower part is the setup.
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Dubar on February 09, 2023, 10:52:28 AM
"Changing rules mid-game is normal, just do not forget taking notes :)
Btw I find solo gaming faster, the only slower part is the setup."

Freddy...LOL, Years ago I invited 2 friends over to play a WW2 game with me as the "referee".  4 hours later there had not been a shot fired!!!  These "Generals" were too afraid to lose any of their assets.  o_o  My motto has always been, Do something, even if it's wrong.

Being the 5 Men In Normandy rules have morphed into homemade rules I have them on my computer.  I generally write down on the copy in front of me what I feel needs changing and make the change between turns (that's why a game is taking so long).  Right now my actual step-by-step rules are only 2 pages long, 1st page is movement and terrain and 2nd page is shooting with a small blurb on brawling.

The one area of my rules I'm contemplating changes to are what to do once a figure is hit.  As of now I have them bleeding out unless a medic can get to them, but it involves keeping track (writing down) their status each turn.  Depending on the roll of the dice they cannot move, or shoot, or both until tended to or they're KIA.  Poor medic is scurrying around the battlefield like a cat in a thunderstorm!!!  I may change them to simply roll to see if they are incapacitated (and removed from play) or still in the fight, just to speed things up.  I wonder how many actual soldiers stayed in the fight with a bullet in the leg, arm, or torso.  I expect very few, Hollywood has us believing otherwise.

I've also realized my gaming has turn more into just that, a game, instead of recreating a specific historical event.  I may at some point incorporate the campaign system from 5MiN, give my troops a bit of character, and see how long they last from one skirmish to the next.
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Harry Faversham on February 09, 2023, 11:19:10 AM
For the sights on the old bolt action combat rifles, I wonder if their usefulness is more for achieving fire density when a section is firing as a unit.

Spot on, in my 'umble opinion. WW 1 British SMLE rifles were fitted with volley sights for just that reason. About a foot back from the foresight was a dial, marked out to a thousand yards, a post on the dial rotated to the range ordered. At the back of the bolt was a bead on a post that flipped up. Line up bead and post then lob volley fire, (just like .303 mortar bombs!) out to biff the Hun for six!

 :o
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Dubar on February 09, 2023, 02:19:34 PM
Spot on, in my 'umble opinion. WW 1 British SMLE rifles were fitted with volley sights for just that reason. About a foot back from the foresight was a dial, marked out to a thousand yards, a post on the dial rotated to the range ordered. At the back of the bolt was a bead on a post that flipped up. Line up bead and post then lob volley fire, (just like .303 mortar bombs!) out to biff the Hun for six!

 :o

Dang, my MkIII doesn't have one:

Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Freddy on February 09, 2023, 09:39:22 PM
"Changing rules mid-game is normal, just do not forget taking notes :)
Btw I find solo gaming faster, the only slower part is the setup."

Freddy...LOL, Years ago I invited 2 friends over to play a WW2 game with me as the "referee".  4 hours later there had not been a shot fired!!!  These "Generals" were too afraid to lose any of their assets.  o_o  My motto has always been, Do something, even if it's wrong.

Being the 5 Men In Normandy rules have morphed into homemade rules I have them on my computer.  I generally write down on the copy in front of me what I feel needs changing and make the change between turns (that's why a game is taking so long).  Right now my actual step-by-step rules are only 2 pages long, 1st page is movement and terrain and 2nd page is shooting with a small blurb on brawling.

The one area of my rules I'm contemplating changes to are what to do once a figure is hit.  As of now I have them bleeding out unless a medic can get to them, but it involves keeping track (writing down) their status each turn.  Depending on the roll of the dice they cannot move, or shoot, or both until tended to or they're KIA.  Poor medic is scurrying around the battlefield like a cat in a thunderstorm!!!  I may change them to simply roll to see if they are incapacitated (and removed from play) or still in the fight, just to speed things up.  I wonder how many actual soldiers stayed in the fight with a bullet in the leg, arm, or torso.  I expect very few, Hollywood has us believing otherwise.

I've also realized my gaming has turn more into just that, a game, instead of recreating a specific historical event.  I may at some point incorporate the campaign system from 5MiN, give my troops a bit of character, and see how long they last from one skirmish to the next.

I have my own rules for basic combat, often I just squeeze it into whatever game I play, keeping the morale, activation, etc parts from the original. I have a hit roll and a wound roll like in 40k (armor just adds to the toughness), when hit, a soldier is shocked, when wounded, it is out-of-actin.

First aid is used mostly in campaign mode, it determines if the guys survive for the next battle, also gives one to wound reroll per turn in a given range. Resurrecting "dead" people might work in scifi or fantasy, but pretty weird in a world war setting imho.
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Dubar on February 11, 2023, 12:21:24 PM
Question...Figures that are "Knocked Down", can they still be shot at?  So far I've found nothing in the 5MiN rules.

I'm leaning towards YES, reason is they may recover to fight again so don't give them the chance.
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Harry Faversham on February 11, 2023, 01:39:17 PM
Dang, my MkIII doesn't have one:

Done away with by the time they got to the Smelly Mk. III. Here's a Mk. II.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/Short_Magazine_Lee-Enfield_Mk_1_%281903%29_-_UK_-_cal_303_British_-_Arm%C3%A9museum.jpg)

 :)
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Dubar on February 11, 2023, 06:07:38 PM
Nice!!!  I'd like to shoot mine more, but ammo is $1.20 and higher per round these days.  Not as bad as what the Arisaka ammo is going for, when I can find it.
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Dubar on February 16, 2023, 01:29:43 AM
I'm thinking about inserting some 1/35 armor into my gaming.  Nothing extravagant, just a couple of pieces to give the foot soldiers something to worry about.  ;D

The largeness of the scale probably doesn't lend itself well to wargaming, unless you have a football field sized table, but that doesn't mean it can't be done.  A well laid out small town or a number of wooded areas can negate longer distances quickly.

Only issue is coming up with some rules for it.

I've almost finalized my homemade rules for 1/35 infantry.  They're simple but if anyone wants to see them and give them a try I could post them here, it's only 3 pages long.  No fluff, just basic movements and shooting with what to do with the wounded and how to toss a grenade.
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Kikuchiyo on February 16, 2023, 06:40:51 AM
I'm always interested in new rule sets particularly small scale action
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Dubar on February 16, 2023, 12:18:05 PM
Then here ya go!!!  I'm using a variety of markers (picked up 2 sets off Amazon, 9 colors in each set).  I'll send each page in a different post so the post isn't too long.  Hopefully the indentations and such come out right when I hit the Post button!

PAGE 1

1/35 (54mm) SCALE WW2 RULES

1) Select forces for each side prior to start of game.

2) Each side roll 1D6, lowest roll activates first, then each side takes turn

   OR
     
Roll each turn to see which side activates first.

3) Side activating:
   All figures may move.
   May activate up to all your available figures or you may activate the same or different figures each turn.  You can carry out all the
        actions of 1 figure before picking the next figure.
   When activated, a figure may move a normal 6” move and fire at any visible target, or may fire then move, but can’t run and fire.

MOVEMENT AND TERRAIN

NORMAL MOVE – A normal move (not running) is up to 6 inches in any direction.
         Figures carrying a heavy load can only move 4” (no running).
         Unless in Hand-to-Hand Combat, figures should not come within 1” of enemy figures.

RUNNING –  Use BLUE marker to indicate figure ran
         A figure may RUN at the end of their normal move, rather than firing a weapon.  Pick destination/direction and roll
                        1D6 and move up to that amount in inches.
         Must be in the open to RUN, but may end the move in cover.
         Figure may cross an easy obstacle during a RUN but cannot enter or be in rough ground at the beginning of the RUN.
         Exiting rough ground during the NORMAL MOVE does not affect the ability to RUN.
         Medics roll 2D6 to RUN if running to treat a wounded figure, otherwise roll 1D6.

ROUGH GROUND
         Figures may enter, move inside, or exit rough ground without difficulty but cannot both enter and exit in a single
                        move.
         Figures having enough movement to reach the other side of rough ground must halt at the edge before leaving rough
                        ground.
         A figure beginning its movement inside rough ground may move out without any limitation.

OBSTACLES   (Easy and Difficult)

         EASY – Obstacles are waist high or lower.  Designate what each obstacle is prior to the start of the game. 
                                             Crossing an EASY obstacle will end the current move.

         DIFFICULT – Obstacles (woods, streams, plowed fields, hedgerows, walls) requires a 3 moves to cross.  The
                                                     figure stops at contact on the 1st move. A 2nd move is required to cross and must halt at the
                                                     edge.  On the 3rd move the figure is able to move away.  Cannot run while in a DIFFICULT
                                                     obstacle.
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Dubar on February 16, 2023, 12:20:33 PM
PAGE 2

WEAPONS FIRE

NOTE: Generally, if a target can be seen it can be fired at.  Cannot fire into or thru wooded area, except for the 1” perimeter of the half of the wooded area the shooter is facing, unless shooter and target are within the same wooded area.

WEAPONS:
Pistols –    Revolvers   12” range   Rate of Fire – 1
      Semi-Auto   12” range   Rate of Fire – 2
Rifles -    Bolt Action   LOS      Rate of Fire – 1
      Semi-Auto   LOS      Rate of Fire – 2
SMG -          36”      Rate of Fire – 3 all targets within a 2” circle are subject to fire
LMG -          LOS      Rate of Fire – 3 all targets within a 3” circle are subject to fire
HMG -          LOS      Rate of Fire – 4 all targets within a 3” circle are subject to fire

Measure distance to target and roll percentage dice, apply necessary modifiers.  If roll is equal to or greater than distance = HIT.  USE GREEN marker to indicate figure fired his weapon

NOTE: Number of rolls = Rate of Fire for that weapon (example-tripod mounted MG42 rolls 4 times)

MODIFIERS TO ROLL:
Target is in soft cover      = -10
(Soft cover would be bushes, edge of wooded area, picket fences, etc)

Target ran            = -15

Shooter Wounded      = -20

Target is in hard cover    = -30
(Hard cover would be stone walls, buildings, sandbags, etc)

Aimed (did not move)      = +10

I’M HIT!!!

If HIT, place a temporary BLOOD RED marker to indicate figure has been hit.

At end of turn roll 1D6:
1 = Flesh wound (nothing to worry about), remove BLOOD RED marker
2, 4, = Figure cannot move, but may fire (Change to WHITE marker to indicate figure can’t move).
3, 5 = Figure cannot fire but may move (not run) (Change to BLACK marker to indicate figure can’t shoot)
6 = KIA (remove from battlefield)

If medic is NOT present at end of each turn, figure rolls 1D6 (roll for each wound)
If roll is 1       = figure patches himself up
If roll is 6       = figure dies

If medic IS present (within 3”) at end of each turn, medic rolls 1D6 (roll for each wound)
If roll is 2, 3, 4, or 5    = heals that figure.
If roll is 1 or 6    =fails to heal, may try next turn.
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Dubar on February 16, 2023, 12:30:43 PM
PAGE 3

GRENADES

Grenades can be thrown 9”

Indicate Point of Impact and Roll percentage dice, if roll is 33 or less – DOES NOT explode on Point of Impact.  If roll is 34 or greater than grenade explodes on Point of Impact

NOTE: To throw thru an OPENING (window, door) roll percentage dice, if roll is 90 or higher then the throw is a success. Subtract 1 from roll for each 1” thrower is away from opening.
If not a success, roll 1D3 (D6/2) to see how far grenade bounced in inches, then roll 1D6 for direction (use only the 90 to 270 degree half of a circle back towards thrower) it bounced back (not forward) in inches.

NOTE:    Roll 50 = bobbled - explodes at figure throwing the grenade plus any figure within a 3” circle
              Roll 00 = dud - does not explode


*****IF POINT of IMPACT IS HIT

Roll 1D3 (D6/2 rounded up, 3 wounds per figure max) for number of hits each figure takes that’s within a 3” circle.  If grenade explodes outside soft or hard cover that the target may be in (throw did not succeed going thru the opening), subtract 2 from dice roll for number of wounds.


*****IF POINT of IMPACT IS MISSED

Roll 1D6 for impact point from target (in inches) it missed.

Roll 1D6 for direction it missed.
1 = 0 deg, 2 =60 deg, 3=120 deg, 4=180 deg, 5=240 deg, 6=300 deg



HAND TO HAND COMBAT

Any figure that moves into base to base contact with an enemy figure is results in H-t-H Combat.

A figure cannot fire then enter H-t-H Combat in the same turn.

Each figure rolls 1D6, figure that started the encounter adds +1 to their roll.  Low score loses and is removed from play.

Winner moves off 2” in any direction or may shoot a pistol if another enemy figure is within 12 inches and in line of sight.

If results of the roll are equal, the attacker will back off 2” and turn ends.  If the defender has a pistol, he may fire (12”) at the retreating attacker.

If the result is that both are winners, both are removed from play.


That's all, feel free to use/modify/trash them as you like.  Feel free to comment or make suggestions, I'm still learning as I go and may have overlooked a number of things.

I've played about half dozen battles so far and the rules seem to be doing what I want so.....
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Dubar on February 16, 2023, 12:39:18 PM
Here's the markers I purchased off Amazon:

Shapenty 3/4Inch / 19mm Small Plastic Learning Counters Disks Chip Counting Discs Markers for Math Practice and Poker Chips Game Tokens with Storage Box, 9 Colors, 135PCS

They remind me of Tiddly Winks!!!  2 boxes gives you 30 of each color.
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Kikuchiyo on February 16, 2023, 01:15:47 PM
thanks I'll take a look at that this weekend
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Dubar on February 16, 2023, 09:16:23 PM
Maybe I should have started this in a new thread or at least changed the name of this one, cause it ain't 5 Men In Normandy anymore  o_o
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Dubar on March 03, 2023, 12:55:06 PM
I have re-tweaked my homemade rules a bit and cleaned them up to make them easier to read, and with a few things added they're now 6 pages long.  Anyone wanting a copy my email is in my profile.

Here's a game I just started today, in 1/35 scale.  A 13-man squad (1 medic) of G.I.s is attempting to eliminate an 9-man squad (1 medic) of Germans, with a MG42, hold up in a bunker and in the area north of the road.  G.I.s are aided by some smoke rounds from a mortar in their effort to close the gap so an assault can be made on the stronghold.  In this photo the MG42 has found a target thru the gap between the smoke and the edge of a wooded area, 1 soldier was hit but managed to stem the flow of blood and keep moving.

The mat is a Cigar Box battle mat, the trees came from Amazon and are usually located on my O-scale railroad.  Buildings are simple boxes made from cardboard and the pillbox and bridge were made from green insulation board found at a local Lowes hardware.  I designated the entire hex a tree is in, as all wooded areas, with the 1" perimeter being light cover and any figure within the 1" area can be targeted:

Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Dubar on March 03, 2023, 03:49:10 PM
Thru some bad rolls of the dice, both sides took a beating with the Germans having to retreat across the bridge after about 10 turns.  The medics came in handy, they saved a couple of soldiers who were able to continue the fight (only to die on a later turn).  I felt it necessary to add some Morale rules into the mix, but I need to play them a few more games to make sure they work like I want.

So far I've found it doesn't pay to bunch your figures up, stay in 1 place, and run out in the open.  I had 3 G.I.s mowed down in quick succession by a fellow with a MP40...rolled 3 sixes in a row on their wounds, ending up with 3 KIAs! :o

The smoke provided ample protection from the MG42, it was able to only get in a couple of shots before the smoke covered their line of sight and the G.I.s maneuvered out of their field of fire.

Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: DS615 on March 03, 2023, 05:17:45 PM
I was even thinking about simply using the distance to a target and roll percentage dice.  In order to "Score" the roll has to be equal to or greater than the distance.  So if you can see a target 45" away then you have to roll (I'm using 2 ten-sided dice) a 45 or higher in order to "Score".  If you're 9" away a 9 or higher.  I have a 48"x72" table so I could possibly have a target 72" away and would have to roll a 72 or higher to Score.

I've done that in rules before.  The distance is essentially the "chance you miss" in that case.
It works, but there's a few caveats.  One, anything close (like less than 30" away) is going to be hit most of the time. Almost always.
Two, you have to be okay with assuming that every figure is the exact same as far as skill and training. Modifiers get difficult to implement.  How does cover affect things? 
I found that while it certainly functioned, it didn't really work, if you know what I mean.
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Dubar on March 03, 2023, 06:24:22 PM
I've done that in rules before.  The distance is essentially the "chance you miss" in that case.
It works, but there's a few caveats.  One, anything close (like less than 30" away) is going to be hit most of the time. Almost always.
Two, you have to be okay with assuming that every figure is the exact same as far as skill and training. Modifiers get difficult to implement.  How does cover affect things? 
I found that while it certainly functioned, it didn't really work, if you know what I mean.

True, but I do have Modifiers to the roll that, so far, seem to work:

MODIFIERS TO ROLL:

Shooter Aimed (did not move)   = +10
Target is in soft cover              = -15 (Bushes, edge of wooded area, fences, etc)
Shooter Wounded         = -20 (EACH WOUND)
Target ran                    = -20
Target is in soft-skinned vehicle   = -25 (jeep, kubelwagen, schwimmwagen, truck, etc)
Target is in hard cover       = -30 (Stone walls, buildings, sandbags, behind a berm, etc)
Target is in armored or fortified   = -50 (halftrack, tank, bunker, etc)

I haven't done much in the way of using armor so that 50% modifier may have to be changed for small arms fire depending on the target.

So a target 30" away that's running now has to have a 50 or better rolled on it to hit, if there's bushes, trees, etc (if line of fire crosses the 1" perimeter of a wooded area) then tack on another 15, for a roll of 65 or better to hit.  Even if the target is hit it may turn out to be a flesh wound (1) or could be KIA (6) depending on a 1D6 die roll.

I usually only have 2 six-sided dice and 2 ten-sided dice on the table, a tape measure, 6 colors of tokens to indicate a figures actions/results, and little else.  For some reason I detest using cards, guess they take up too much room on a table for my taste.  lol
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Freddy on March 04, 2023, 05:21:38 PM
I am not sure what is the best way to handle running. From target shooting point of view, a running target is harder to hit, that is true. But on a battlefield it also means that it does not  care about cover as much as a more slowly (cautiously) moving soldier would.
Title: Re: 5 Men In Normandy???
Post by: Dubar on March 04, 2023, 06:14:48 PM
Definitely!

I added another modifier just to see how it would work plus revised some of the numbers of others:

MODIFIERS TO ROLL:

Shooter Aimed (did not move)   = +10

Target is partially obscured by   = -10 (soft cover) or -20 (hard cover)
                  (partially obscured by cover that’s in between shooter and target                      such as edge of woods or edge of building)


Target is in soft cover              = -15 (Bushes, edge of wooded area, fences, etc)

Shooter Wounded         = -20 (EACH WOUND)

Target ran                    = -25

Target is in soft-skinned vehicle   = -30 (jeep, kubelwagen, schwimmwagen, truck, etc)

Target is in hard cover       = -35 (Stone walls, buildings, sandbags, behind a berm, etc)

Target is in armored or fortified   = -75 (tank, bunker, etc)

The reason I added the partially obscured modifier is I had a G.I. on the move that could be seen approximately 75%, the edge of 2 different wooded areas partially obscured the target.  That added another 20 pts (10pts for each wooded area) to the German's die roll, in this case it happened to be a bipod-mounted MG42 shooting from a window ledge.  The target was 40 inches away so the roll required was 60 or better.  The bipod-mounted MG42 gets 4 rolls (rate of fire) and 1 of the 4 found it's mark.

If I get into using vehicles I may add modifiers for soft skinned, lightly armored, heavily armored but that'll take some research.