Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Back of Beyond => Topic started by: Siaba on December 10, 2009, 12:02:32 PM
-
I intend to build Makhno's army using 25/28mm figures.
I thought about using partisan and soldiers in greatcoat and fur hat for infantry...
(http://fotoforum.fr/photos/2009/12/10.67.jpg) (http://fotoforum.fr)
(http://fotoforum.fr/photos/2009/12/10.68.jpg) (http://fotoforum.fr)
....and cavalrymen in greatcoat and fur hat
(http://fotoforum.fr/photos/2009/12/10.69.jpg) (http://fotoforum.fr)
to suggest peasants and civilians.
On the other hand, caption of this picture speak about Makhno's guard.
(http://fotoforum.fr/photos/2009/12/10.70.jpg) (http://fotoforum.fr)
These soldiers seems to be wearing an uniform. Was this limited to Makhno's guard or could I use uniformed soldiers in the army ?
-
You'd be more than able to use soldiers for Makhnos forces.
They may have a slightly less-then-uniform appearance but they'd fit right in especially if you're using figs from the same manufacturer, Copplestone as already mentioned for example.
Many partizan groups included deserters and troops generaly disenchanted with the way things were going. Not only that, alot of looted, or liberated depending on who's side you were on, equipment ended up eing utilised by all parties concerned.
Great idea for a force btw :D
-
The banner says something like " Death to anyone who stands in the way of the Working People", or so I'm told. There are people who say the Makhnovichina didn't use skull/bones symbols and therefore these aren't from Makhno's forces. I wouldn't know, I'd use it anyway.
With the release of Nestor himself by Brigade Games I tend to look at that range only, as Copplestone figs are notably larger. I wouldn't mix them in a unit (-but I'm really fussy about that).
Brigade has some wonderful sets of Red, White and sailor command sets. Put together in one unit they would make a nice core unit of Makhnovichina, while normal soldiers with fur hats could be troops. The odd German fig with a headswap to represent looted/ found/traded gear. Perhaps sculpt a ladies dress under a uniform jacket, or a fancy fur coat.
Artizan designs did some Pulp Cossacks too that make good characters.
If you go for Copplestone also the Ragged White Russians would work well, if you file the shoulderboards off.
-
gorgeous
had the same idea myself, but shelved it for the time being.
The question is not if You use russian soldiers and not only fur/felt hats, but if You want them to look differently than reds or whites.
As such I still think it is a good idea to stick to the traditional Ukrainian peasant's fur/felt hat as a signature, allthough especially Makhnovists appear to not have been uniformed much.
-
Thank you for your ideas and suggestions. :)
It's not something I'll start before spring. To distinguish anarchist from whites or red, I thought about using figures with epaulettes for the whites and some figures in budeniovka for the reds.
Fyodir Schus is often seen with his sailor hat. Do you think it would be correct to have sailors in Makhno's army ? Or people wearing pieces of sailor garb ?
-
Loose cut cut blouses were popular items of peasant dress so you could modify and paint the military blouses of some of the figures as peasant costume. Artizan designs do so nice partisans in their second world war range that you can use for extra variety:
http://www.artizandesigns.com/list.php?man=15&cat=128&page=1
If you want to add a sailor or two I'd recommend getting the Bolt Action Soviet Naval Infantry, they come swathed in ammo belts and are sold in fours so no need to buy an excess.
http://shop.warlordgames.co.uk/soviet-naval-infantry-rifles-1217-p.asp
For the record, the Copplestones aren't that much larger than Brigade Games. I have both and mix them quite happily.
-
Loose cut blouses with a belt were more than popular. From what I can tell, they were what basically every Russian peasant wore. The military version was basically taken from the peasant one except shorter.
I know former user likes to have all his Makhnovists in fur cap for reasons of continuity, but peasants wore peaked caps too. Soft ones, not the military version with stiffeners. But a quick file and that's sorted.
So far so good using Summer military figures as Makhnovists.
But Russian peasant greatcoats look nothing like military ones. They were rougher, shorter and thicker and stuck out at the bottom. They have a look all their own really. Of course at the time the Makhnovists would have had plenty of ex-WWI greatcoats, but if you are trying to make them look like Ukrainian peasants, military greatcoats won't do it.
If I was determined to make figures actually look like peasants, I would start mostly with Summer issue riflemen.
- paint many blouses white, or nearabouts, with dark belt. Others grey and brown.
- make all the hats either fur types or soften up the military ones, and paint most dark.
- fill in some of the boots to make trousers with shoes/barefeet, and rough up the other boots and not paint black
- limit the amount of ex-military gear
- limit the number of guys in nice coats or jackets
- limit the number of "partisan" figures, as most look like townies
This is what I would be aiming at:
http://www.powerofunknown.com/images/people/peasants.jpg
http://people.emich.edu/wmoss/publications/peasanp.jpg
http://www.heritage-history.com/books/bergen/russia/zpage022.gif
-
we come in pairs, Mark ;) :D
Mark is surely right
the soft peak cap was the everyday hat not only in Russia, and there are many pictures of peasants with them and of workers too. It hardly matters that the fur/felt hat is more traditional in the Ukraine.
One should not forget that the Makhnovists were the most successfull and thus most remembered of the peasant independence movements and not the only Anarchists. But their success certainly attracted many to side with them, so the appearance should have been pretty much "diluted"
Problem is how You want to design Your army. Using budenovkas alone for reds would be the fur hat in reverse.
Basically for the start of the RCW, You could take a bunch of figures, whichever are released, and simply have removable chevrons, armbands and red stars.
Only by 1919 things get different, with the red army and the regulation uniform and the whites with their british uniforms.
I personally like the musketeer VBCW workers, but these would be more something for the reds actually. There are also some of the Pulp merchant sailors with the soft peaked caps that could go as russians.
In times of need, as was most of RCW, people would wear anything they get.
I read somewehere that at a time someone started to collect civilian greatcoats, because there were no army issues.
Unfortunately, the Brigand look said to have been favoured by the Makhnovist Brass is not available as miniatures, unless You want to convert 18th century Ukrainain cossacks with modern weapons.
As so often, it is a matter of personal choice, but that's the fun of it ;)
-
Thank you very much for your help :)
Here is a song, with french lyrics, I found. There are interesting pictures of anarchists leaders and flags in the video.
[flash=200,200][<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/bB4MFiHH1qw&hl=fr_FR&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed ></object>/flash]
-
very nice
thx for sharing
now I understand how one can have the idea with the fur hats ;)
I wonder if the pictures were really all of Makhnovists - can't judge that...
-
Whites had British uniform? Didn't know that!
Brilliant, one could even throw in some british officers as White deserters then?!
Most pics of above video are here:
http://www.nestormakhno.info/images.htm
-
I think it would be unlikely that the Makhnovists Army would be picking up British-clad deserting White officers. Being Anarchists they were pretty opposed to officers. I think it more likely that any deserting officers would have gone over to the Reds, who were by 1919 if not earlier enticing former Tsarist officers back into the army, re-establishing the command structure, getting rid of the soldiers' soviets, introducing military discipline etc. Though there's no reason to suppose that soldiers supplied by the British might have gone over to Makhno.
The idea of using SCW (or maybe IRA?) figures for urban workers is interesting I think. In theory at least, the Makhnovists were connected to the Nabat ('Alarm') Confederation, a federation of Anarchist groups all over Ukraine, including all the major cities. So I think it's quite likely that some at least of the Makhnovists would generally resemble other European workers.
Though I'd expect that the longer they served, the more chance they'd have of providing themselves with fur hat and greatcoats, after all a flatcap (did they wear such things in Ukranian cities?) and a jacket isn't going to keep you warm for long in a Ukranian winter. There could, of course, be the odd Anarchist from the USA or France, for instance, that went out to fight for 'the Social Revloution' as it was called.
-
I agree, Red Orc. But nonetheless a makhnovist soldier might have looted a british jacket after a raid. :)
I should tell that the idea for a Makhnovist army is something I've been thinking about for years. Scarce information on the actual appearance gives a lot of liberty.
I'm attracted to the highly romantic image of the movement, similar to highwaymen or pirates! Actual historical facts come second for me.
-
Oh absolutely, I agree that would probably be some looted British kit in there - also probably German or Austrian as well as both armies were active in Ukraine at the end of WWI and then the early days of the Civil War; also I think there were French round Odessa, and I think Greeks and Romanians also, so many different things might find their way into a Makhnovista unit's kit. It's just the idea of officers defecting I find difficult to swallow.
If you're going for a not-perhaps entirely accurate look, almost any mix and match late WWI or early 1920s figs would work - just give them some banner bearer with a big black flag with the words 'Freedom or Death' or 'Land and Liberty' or some such on it. In Ukranian, of course, though I did hear that Makhno didn't speak Ukranian. I don't know what he did speak. Polish? Russian? Lettish? I dunno...
-
Ah, the old "Makhno didn't speak Ukrainian" gambit. I'm not getting at you Red Orc, only the source of this particular argument.
Makhno grew up in the Ukraine, of a not particularly wealthy (and certainly not Russian) family. He spoke the local dialect of Ukrainian. Problem is that "official" Ukrainian, was decided by intellectuals in Kiev mostly. My understanding is that it was the dialect of that part of the Ukraine and Shevchenko, was much more formal and a bit more Russian. Makhno did not know that version, just as in 1915 the French peasants in the provinces did not necessarily speak "French" as spoken in Paris. Since Ukrainian as a written language was basically forbidden by the Tsars, of course he did not know that.
My objection to equipping Makhnovists in old uniforms is that most of the time Makhno's rule was very thin. He was an important military force, but he had no system of rule (being an anarchist) so lost his control as soon as he left an area. Peasants had to go back to being farmers when the Germans, Whites and Soviets were in coming through. Having too much military kit would be dangerous.
-
Ah, the old "Makhno didn't speak Ukrainian" gambit. I'm not getting at you Red Orc, only the source of this particular argument.
Makhno grew up in the Ukraine, of a not particularly wealthy (and certainly not Russian) family. He spoke the local dialect of Ukrainian. Problem is that "official" Ukrainian, was decided by intellectuals in Kiev mostly...
That seems reasonable enough. Most countries have pretty wide differences in regional dialect and before the introduction of universal education and a standardised writing system that would be even more pronounced (pun intended).
Maybe a black flag with a slogan like 'Liberty or Death' in very badly spelled Ukrainian would be better.
-
Maybe a black flag with a slogan like 'Liberty or Death' in very badly spelled Ukrainian would be better.
lol
He did have a few hinterlectuals with him. I'm sure they would have spelled things correctly.
My main problem with reproducing that original flag for a wargames unit is that it isn't a flag. It's a parade banner, and quite unsuitable for a unit to fly. It's obviously meant to hang vertically and is way too big.
Page 87 of the Osprey Essential History has the Red's view of the Makhnovists. I notice that they seem to think large amounts of khaki are appropriate. The picture on page 88 is pretty cool too.
-
hmmm
apart from civilain clothes, what else than Khaki?
The Ukrainian Army had this frenchy blue, so being different might have been an issue.
Wasn't there a report about the brass dressing quite fancy and colourful?
Maybe some conversion of "Hussar - style with fur hat" miniatures could be useful?
-
There is a picture of anarchist leaders at 00:20 in the video I posted ;)
Here is a picture of leaders I have found:
(http://fotoforum.fr/photos/2009/12/14.51.jpg) (http://fotoforum.fr)
and this one....perhaps from a movie ?
(http://fotoforum.fr/photos/2009/12/14.52.jpg) (http://fotoforum.fr)
This one is very interesting as it shows anarchists and reds when Malkhno's army was part of the red army. Difficult to distinguish anarchist from reds, isn't it ? ;)
(http://fotoforum.fr/photos/2009/12/14.53.jpg) (http://fotoforum.fr)
Any hints about black army organisation ?
I read about a "black sotnia" or "hell sotnia" and the picture showing two soldiers with a black flag (page 1 of this topic) is legended "soldiers from the second regiment"..... ::)
-
Any hints about black army organisation ?
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=12626.30
-
I have a copy of a book about the Mahknovists written by Mahkno's ADC, but unfortunately (and uselessly) it's in my parents' loft!! Arrgh!
I do know that it goes into quite considerable detail about the Black Army so if I get the chance I'll dig it up and see what I can find - it should be of use.
-
Thank you for your help! :)
Here is another video I found. Lot of pictures of Makhno's army.
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/CZqOhz5JtdU&hl=fr_FR&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always></object>
-
Loose cut cut blouses were popular items of peasant dress
That's because they're comfy and easy to make. I shit you not, as I am wearing a black one right now. Coincidentally, I might add.
Nice to see this topic showing up again.