Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Pikes, Muskets and Flouncy Shirts => Topic started by: Captain Blood on March 23, 2010, 11:32:23 PM
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Feast your eyes on these boys... :-*
(http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/15980973/sn/1758028417/name/Doppelsoldier+1.jpg)
(http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/15980973/sn/1513236401/name/Doppelsoldier+2.jpg)
Sooooooooooo gorgeous...
I'm resisting manfully, but may have to yield...
I've actually no use for them, but I just want to paint them o_o
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Wow, those look nice.
Please don't stone me to death, I'm just wondering, why not use GW's version?
Just wondering why Artizan chose to make this line, specifically.
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Is that a halberd in your pocket or are you just pleased to see me? Now they just need a complementary range of Spanish with large genitors.
Very nice sculpts but I've always seen landsknechts as an army I would want to paint somewhere after circus clowns and samba schools.
I take it these would match the TAG Spanish?
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Please don't stone me to death, I'm just wondering, why not use GW's version?
Just wondering why Artizan chose to make this line, specifically.
Presumably these are based on historical illustrations whereas the GW Empire stuff is a bit more fanciful / fantastical?
I take it these would match the TAG Spanish?
I doubt it. Mike Owen's stuff is often towards the tall end of '28mm'.
Nick Collier's Renaissance stuff for TAG is deliberately at the small end of '28mm' (he used to do great big 28s for Bicorne and Renegade - which I like cos they're bloody easy to paint - but he / TAG decided the scale creep had gone far enough, and so he recalibrated all his work for TAG down by a few mm... )
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I'm not being funny but Captain Blood, please don't resist.. I would love to see you paint some of these.
Especially after seeing what you did with those new Perry Plastics!
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... Please don't stone me to death, I'm just wondering, why not use GW's version? ...
Maybe because GW Plastics are more expensive than Artizan’s metal figures? ;D
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So it's a range of Landsknechts with no obvious candidates as opposition then? Brilliant.
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So it's a range of Landsknechts with no obvious candidates as opposition then? Brilliant.
Not exactly uncommon, unfortunately. Still, seeing as the range is still new, give them a chance. If nothing else, you can still fight a 'Bad War'!
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They are indeed beautiful.
The Landskencht have always appealed to me.
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So it's a range of Landsknechts with no obvious candidates as opposition then? Brilliant.
They'll work very nicely as conquistadors against my Incas, I reckon. These are bloody fantastic!
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They'll work very nicely as conquistadors against my Incas, I reckon. These are bloody fantastic!
You could certainly mix the odd one in but I wouldnt do a whole force of them to fight the Inca :)
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Nice. :)
So it's a range of Landsknechts with no obvious candidates as opposition then? Brilliant.
I think the plan is to create opponents too, but I might be wrong.
I bought some of the Pikemen when they first came out. My only concern is...and I love Artizan figures...the cleaning up process. I was surprised that brand new castings, ie brand new moulds would take so much cleaning up. Or is it just me?
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Love this range. :-* Bihänder are a very nice - if not too useful - addition. The resting chap is my favorite, so far.
Although I'd wished for more variation than the typical slashing pose. Those greatswords were actually used more like spears with one hand gripping the blade. The possible poses are quite numerous if you look at contemporary illustrations, e.g. in books teaching swordplay.
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So it's a range of Landsknechts with no obvious candidates as opposition then? Brilliant.
One thing at a time. I'm sure their opponents are in the works.
Though it would make sense to release them and opponents simultaneously, wouldn't it?
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Please don't stone me to death, I'm just wondering, why not use GW's version?
GW's current empire plastic state troops don't look like historical landsknechts anymore, unlike the previous edition. They are also considered bad sculpts, even among the empire players on the Warhammer Empire forum.
Their greatswords are better (though still somewhat more stylised than their historical counterparts) though are known as goldswords due to being one of the most expensive sets.
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You could certainly mix the odd one in but I wouldnt do a whole force of them to fight the Inca :)
That's what I was thinking - a couple of personalities. Mind you, I'd have to buy the whole set, just to be sure...
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wow ! they are cool
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They look nice, but not very historical accurate. They look like giants with big trees in their hands and the clothes are a bit too large... :(
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That's what I was thinking - a couple of personalities. Mind you, I'd have to buy the whole set, just to be sure...
lol A man after my own heart
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GW's current empire plastic state troops don't look like historical landsknechts anymore, unlike the previous edition. They are also considered bad sculpts, even among the empire players on the Warhammer Empire forum.
Their greatswords are better (though still somewhat more stylised than their historical counterparts) though are known as goldswords due to being one of the most expensive sets.
I must admit I don't really like the new Empire figures at all, they just seem to over the top (especially the mechanical horse thing).
All I do now is look on bring and buys and the second hand traders for any that are going relatively cheap, I've found quite a few so far but these new Artizan are very tempting and look like they would fit in nicely with the older GW Empire figs.
cheers
James
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I have the complete Foundry range and all the GW models from the previous two editions, including 5 or 6 sets of the previous edition plastics, which should cover my needs. I also bought some of the newer sets cheap, but will likely use spare heads and arms from the previous edition to make them fit in. These artizan ones are on the want list too, though I must admit that on some of them the clothes do look a bit exagerrated.
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So it's a range of Landsknechts with no obvious candidates as opposition then? Brilliant.
Well,that's not true.The Landsknechts modeled themselves after the Swiss in both tactics and appearance(some minor differences) except perhaps the Landsknechts were even more flamboyant then the Swiss.The Swiss didn't like this one bit and thus ensued a bitter rivalry with the two sides often fighting each other on different sides.
In effect,you can collect by yourself or with a friend a host of Artizan Landsknechtes with one side representing the Swiss and the other the Landsknechtes.So actually,Artizan gave you an opposition all in the same line. ;)
Cheers
Christopher
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These are very nice sculpts and I will definately need a set for my Valois army :-*, but the swords are really too simple and I would have liked more variation... ornate hilts, ricasso flamberge.
Those greatswords were actually used more like spears with one hand gripping the blade.
Well half right, they were designed for the Doppelsoeldner to leap forward out of the pike block just before impact and by cutting downward in a scything blow, lop off opposing pike shafts and disrupt the enemy block allowing their own pikes to break into the enemy formation and splinter it. ;D
Very dangerous, so they got double pay (hence the name) Of course they were then sandwiched between blocks and would then resort to moving the left hand beyond the hilt to grasp the blade, (to enable stabbing thrusts) This part of the blade was usually covered by a leather sleeve, called a 'ricasso', further protection for the hand was afforded by a second smaller hilt, to stop other swords sliding up the blade and removing thumbs and fingers :o Ouch!
Blade length could be as much as 5 feet! Wavy bladed swords were quite common 'flamberge' The Styrian state armoury at Graz has racks of them (I'll try and find some photos), presumably the effect being something like a giant steak-knife!
Although this tactic fell from favour around 1510-1515, the Swiss particularly rejecting the Bi-haender in order to have more pikes.
My theory is all the old nutter soldiers died out and replacements willing to risk all were harder to find. lol
CG
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Well half right, they were designed for the Doppelsoeldner to leap forward out of the pike block just before impact and by cutting downward in a scything blow, lop off opposing pike shafts and disrupt the enemy block allowing their own pikes to break into the enemy formation and splinter it. Very dangerous, so they got double pay (hence the name)
Don't want to be pedantic (okay, I am obviously :D ), but I have to disagree here. What you describe stems from 19th century interpretations. There's been some debate over actual tactical use of doppelsöldner in the meantime. However, numbers of greatswords among them (there were others with different equipment) apparently weren't high at all, most of them deployed around the flags in the centre of a pike block. Not the best position to start a surprise attack from. ;) And at least, chopping off a swinging wooden shaft with a sword's blade is nearly impossible.
By now it is believed, that greatswords were only used after the pike blocks clashed (like halberds), so against disordered or withdrawing enemies and as a last ressort to protect the flags of a routed unit.
Maybe a bit over the top here. I like the figures as I like the image of doppelsöldner wielding greatswords, anyway! ;D
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My theory is all the old nutter soldiers died out and replacements willing to risk all were harder to find. lol
Sounds about right lol
cheers
James
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What a wonderful, erudite discussion! :)
Thank you gentlemen
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GW's current empire plastic state troops don't look like historical landsknechts anymore...
Sorry, White Knight, nothing personal but it never fails to amuse me when people who are playing a fantasy game get upset because their minis aren't historical enough!
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No offence taken. This being said, I like the historical landsknecht look and I also like the fantasy models that generally stick to that look, even though fantasy elements are added to it. What I meant is that the current state troops really abandoned the look altogether (as opposed to the previous edition). They are closer to fantasy WOTR than to fantasy landsknechts. Therefore (and that was the point of the post after someone asked why not use GW models instead of the artizan range) they can't be considered alternatives to the artizan landsknechts.
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Fair enough. The State Troops do, however, remind me of some of the Swiss Landsknechts, who sometimes dressed much more 'conservatively', shall we say, than their German counterparts. I'm thinking of a few of my old Ral Partha minis that were dressed in what almost looked like a bodysuit or leotard, topped with a floppy hat.
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Good discussion I agree :-*
What you describe stems from 19th century interpretations. There's been some debate over actual tactical use of doppelsöldner in the meantime.
Thats great information can you steer me to the research? I'd love to read it.
I agree the Bihaender probably fulfilled all the functions you describe and they were certainly posted in the rank behind the heavily armoured front ranks (also doppelsoeldner)as well as the colour guard.
This doesn't detract from the argument that they were used to cut into enemy formations. Here are a couple of early woodcuts from the Wiesskunig showing swords right at the front slashing to cut into the enemy block..(you can just make them out bottom centre in each pic.)
(http://spiritoftheages.com/WK%20218%20(250).jpg) (http://spiritoftheages.com/WK%20169%20(250).jpg)
And at least, chopping off a swinging wooden shaft with a sword's blade is nearly impossible.
Who says? Why invent a giant sword and then only use it for thusting? Just get yourself a spear! the downward force of an overhead swing with a steel blade of 5 feet must be colossal, even if it doesn't cut clean through it will cause serious disruption and certainly drive several pike shafts into the ground rather than them striking the opposing pikemen.
The theory is that the serrated blades help in this regard because as they strike a pike shaft the blade will always be at an angle to the shaft as opposed to 90 degrees on thus enhancing the cutting power.(think saw tooth - we cut on an angle for a reason..)
They are difficult to forge, why bother if it adds no extra advantage?
What we need of course is someone with an actual weapon to test this out :o
Any takers? ???
CG
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I just want some cav for this period. Other than Foundry crazy expensive Gendarmes and Old Glory's terrible sculpts, nobody does cavalry for this period. I don't need any more Landskenchts (even though I preordered these) what I need is everybody else. I glad to see TAG's Italians and Neopolitans. Now, give me some horsies.
-J
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One of the better discussions on the net: LINK (http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=96502).
As said above, it's anything but clear how greatswords were actually used. For example, I wouldn't suggest that you couldn't break a wooden shaft, that you couldn't wield it as every other sword etc. But one has to ask, if it was practical. Wielding an oversized blade is a dangerous affair - both for enemy and friend among dense formations; and the swordsman himself can only hope that he's fast enough to get behind the full length of dozens of nasty pikes pointing at him. Sounds like a job for madmen not a tactical issue for well-paid specialists.
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I thought we were having one of the better discussions on the web lol
I was intrigued with your link and have enjoyed reading it all the way through.
it's anything but clear how greatswords were actually used.
I reckon you are spot on with that...so you pays your money and chooses your mercenary...
In taking a longer view it seems that the increasing size of the sword was an attempt to overcome the increasing effectiveness of armour, it seems to have found an extension of purpose in the Swiss - Landsknecht conflicts but although these wars were to continue the big swords fell from use, being replaced by a greater emphasis on pikes first amongst the Swiss soon to be followed by the Landsknechts, being relegated to body guards and increasingly ceremonial uses.
Most likely because they weren't particularly effective (maybe as pikes learned to keep their nerve in the face of the onslaught)...
It may well be that the level of training required meant that the relative ease of training to fire an arquebus (for the same pay) spelt its doom, much like the longbow?
My guess is the increasing availability and power of handguns to damage and disrupt pikes spelt the deathknell of the two handed sword which had reached the end of its evolution.
CG
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Now, give me some horsies.
I presume you mean the lighter variety Herr Baron?
Have a look at the TAG russian boyars, those in quilted coats are very similar to Stradiots and the ones in mail are only a hop skip and jump from genitors....add the appropriate shields and maybe change the stradiot headgear to tall felt hats?
(http://www.theassaultgroup.co.uk/store/files/detailed_images/d_956.jpg)
CG
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I believe actual TAG stradiots are on the horizon. The TAG website exhibited the dolls a couple of weeks ago.
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What we need of course is someone with an actual weapon to test this out :o
Any takers? ???
CG
I believe Grimm is a Landsknecht reenactor. However, the re-enactment swords I have seen look rather flimsy.
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I just want some cav for this period. Other than Foundry crazy expensive Gendarmes and Old Glory's terrible sculpts, nobody does cavalry for this period. I don't need any more Landskenchts (even though I preordered these) what I need is everybody else. I glad to see TAG's Italians and Neopolitans. Now, give me some horsies.
-J
Tag have some cavalry on their workbench very nice too
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Forgive my impatience. I have a huge Italian Wars army painted and sitting boxes waiting over five years to see the tabletop. "On the workbench" doesn't cut it. I want my horsies now!
-J
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Forgive my impatience. I have a huge Italian Wars army painted and sitting boxes waiting over five years to see the tabletop. "On the workbench" doesn't cut it. I want my horsies now!
-J
TAG are pretty quick with thier releases so I would think by end of next month
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Don't know, if they are exactly what you're looking for, but Eureka do some nice Italian Wars Gendarms:
EDIT: Pictures don't work... so here are the links:
http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?products_id=10727 (http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?products_id=10727)
http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?products_id=10728 (http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?products_id=10728)
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What we need of course is someone with an actual weapon to test this out :o
Any takers? ???
CG
Well, actually I do have a sword - but only for exhibition bouts. I can easily go thoguh paper, styrofoam, cardboard, but I think it is impossible to go through a block of wood. Maybe I'll test it later that day :)
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I get the feeling these are MEANT to be used as GW Greatswords.
Would be a smart way to market them...
Rob
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I get the feeling these are MEANT to be used as GW Greatswords.
Ah Rob, only if you were brought up in a GW-centred universe ;)
Mike Owen has sculpted lots of other Renaissance era figures down the years, and always promised he would come back to the period with Artizan. It may have crossed his mind that these are usable in Warhammer armies - but I'm certain that was not his objective in producing this range. I find it weird that when a designer like Mike sculpts superb historical figures like these, some people (not getting at you Rob, because I've seen several comments along the same lines) 'ah, look, he's trying to make stuff that looks like Warhammer'.
The reality of course is totally the other way round >:(
GW's 'Empire' is styled on a kind of fairytale Renaissance Europe, and borrows heavily from C16th fashion - particularly from the flamboyant landsknechts. It's not really surprising then, that when someone produces a range of historical landsknechts, there's a resemblance.
How mortally depressing that some people think GW's schlocky 'Empire' is the real deal, and appear to know nothing of actual, real, colourful, historical subjects like the landsknechts. :(
Reminds me why, deep down, I hate GW so much. Purveyors of puerlie puff. Deniers of history. Destroyers of knowledge.
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How mortally depressing that some people think GW's schlocky 'Empire' is the real deal, and appear to know nothing of actual, real, colourful, historical subjects like the landsknechts. :(
Reminds me why, deep down, I hate GW so much. Purveyors of puerlie puff. Deniers of history. Destroyers of knowledge.
Lighten up. ;)
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Lighten up. ;)
For Captain Blood on a sunny Sunday afternoon that's quite light enough :~}
Cracking looking figures whatever anyone chooses to use them for.
Looking forward to some reiters appearing.
Be nice to see some millers for the French Wars of Religion too.
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Reminds me why, deep down, I hate GW so much. Purveyors of puerlie puff. Deniers of history. Destroyers of knowledge.
lol lol I quite like GW and some of their stuff but I find that really funny lol lol
cheers
James
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Lighten up. ;)
It always has to boil down to an 'I hate GW' argument...
What I meant by my statement is that, yes they are meant to be historical, but perhaps they have been done to also fit into the fantasy purpose based on the popularity of the army. Nothing wrong with that.
I was also basing my comments on what others here have said; that the miniatures are wielding large weapons, way beyond what would be historically accurate.
However, I REALLY don't want this to become an I hate GW message/topic.
Cool minis, they *COULD* be used for GW's Warhammer Fantasy Battles (as they have rather large swords), but *more likely* as historical Landschneckts.
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I was also basing my comments on what others here have said; that the miniatures are wielding large weapons, way beyond what would be historically accurate.
Having seen some landsknecht swords in museums, I'd say these would match the biggest. From memory there were plenty of 4' - 5' blades, if these figures scale out at about 6' tall, the swords would seem just about right.
On the thoughts of fantasy, how about using them for RSF ? (Renaissance Science Fiction). I notice that there is a new action film in the offing from Warners with Leonardo (da Vinci rather than di Caprio) as a sort of James Bond/Indiana Jones cross.
Thinking back, there was that Rutger Hauer film, Flesh and Blood, that had some good fight scenes including some da Vinci-esque siege equipment.
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...However, I REALLY don't want this to become an I hate GW message/topic...
AMEN!
Whatever your feelings are about Citadel/GW, there is no doubt that, 20 years ago, they busted the minis field wide open. Is there anybody on this forum that can truly say they never looked at a single one of their figures and didn't say 'That's neat'? You don't like 'em, don't buy 'em. Simple. I happen to like a lot of their work.
Just for the record, I also like the new Artizans, 100% accurate or not.
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..chant it with me, "CAV-VAL-REE!, CAV-VAL-REE!, CAV-VAL-REE!"
-J
p.s. Oh and some crossbow. Most of those Renaissance battles, had a ton of them.