Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Interwar => Topic started by: Doc Twilight on March 24, 2010, 01:24:42 AM
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Just thought I'd mention this. I did mention it on the ACW2 forum over at yahoogroups, but sort of neglected to mention it here, as it slipped my mind with things like, oh... hospital visits, and such...
At any rate, thanks kindly to the gents behind A Very British Civil War at Solway, Black Army will be doing an American book, along the same rough idea, this year. The book will not be an "American copy" of a BCW, rather, it will be another, hypothetical civil war, based in the same time frame as the BCW (actually beginning a few years before). Black Army will support the book with miniatures and miniature deals (some of our pre-existing stuff will work just fine with it, actually), although you certainly will NOT be required to use our stuff. (I hope you'll consider it, though.) There is, as yet, no officlal ruleset, though we've done test games with T&T and a variant of Brother Against Brother so far. Both have worked very well.
The book will cover the first period of the war, major factions, scenarios, etc. We are gratuitously borrowing the format of the BCW book as much as we can because, quite frankly, the guys at Solway did a bang up job. Can't promise it'll be as good, but we'll sure try.
Our first public scenario for the book will be at Kublacon, 2010, in Burlingame California, using the Triumph and Tragedy rules. It will involve the Ohio River Valley Offensive, where Nationalist forces under George Patton attempted to quickly cut the heart of the Constitutionalist movement by cutting off the Midwest, with the ultimate goal of the capture of the Constitutionalist Capital at St. Louis, Missouri. The plan is to depict one of the battles fought along the Kentucky/Indiana Border, as the Nationalist forces attempt to capture the capital of the supposedly neutral Kentucky Free State and remove one of several obstacles along the way.
Yes, most of this is all very provisional, but I thought I'd let you in on the secret. Comments, questions, thoughts, etc. are most welcome.
We have a couple other "secret projects" in the works, and I think you'll also be pleased with them, but this is definitely the one that's getting the most attention with my plans at the moment.
-Doc
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Interesting. That sounds very cool.
Real personalities (Patton for example) are just for that demo game., or are they actually in the supplement?
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So your telling me i need to really get on the ball with my mormans spertest turning Utah into deseret then.
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Interesting. That sounds very cool.
Real personalities (Patton for example) are just for that demo game., or are they actually in the supplement?
There will be actual personalities where possible. We have to be careful with them. Some historical personalities are fair game - Lindbergh was a Fascist sympathizer, that's an historical fact. But others, particularly Hollywood Icons, are a different kettle of fish, as I told a few other people, while I like the idea of Gable flying with a squadron of Constitutionalist bombers, I don't know we could get away with it, no matter how heroic he looked. That said, proxies aren't out of the question.
-Doc
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Sounds kind of like the background for Crimson Skies.
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During the inter-war period there was a lot of social unrest going on in the USA. Labor disputes, orginized crime, prohibition, potential regional seperatizm. Factions: Crime gangs, bootleggers, revenuers, cops, government agents, private detectives(pinkertons etc.), labor unions, WWW, KKK, Texas free staters, new confederacy, California and/or southwest seperatists, Northwest seperatists. All in all a lot going on in the USA that could spill over into open conflict and some that did.
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Sounds like a fascinating project and I wish you all the best with it. I was thoroughly absorbed into Turtledove's 'America' series of books and it will be good to see an alternate take on this :D
Proxy characters are the way to go for the most part, especially in the litigious culture we live in today.
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Thanks for the support, everyone. It's what keeps me going.
As a general rough idea, the timeline begins with the assassination attempt on President-Elect FDR in 1933; except that, in my version, it actually succeeds. The country had a tendency toward panic at that time (some could argue it still does, but that is neither here nor there), reactionary events follow, and thus the split.
Thus far, there are two "main" factions forming - the Nationalists, and the Constitutionalists. They contain elements of all three major American political parties of the time (The Democrats, Republicans, and Socialists), and are split more along ideological, regional, and class bases rather than simple party lines. In other words - not all Democrats are necessary aligning themselves with the Constitutionalists, and a fair amount of Republicans find the Nationalist cause less than appealing.
In addition, there are are several smaller factions popping up. The most developed of these is the Kentucky Free State, an Anarcho-Socialist Commonwealth which is trying desperately to stay neutral. We've also got Nativists, Black Nativists, Native American movements, Communists, and all sorts of interesting bits coming in, which we're working on developing further. My wife is working on a very interesting take on the Silver Shirts, and their role in the newly forming American Nationalist Party. The Musketeer BUF work beautifully for this. I'm hoping to have some "Lindbergh Youth" in our own range, eventually, with other interesting surprises.
As with VBCW, the early years of the war are about consolidation rather than massive regional blocks aligning one way or another - though that will come, in time. The US Army of the age, as many of you know, was tiny, so that plays an interesting, and complicating factor.
At any rate, I'll keep you all informed. And please, feel free to keep the questions and/or discussion going. I'll tell you what I can, keeping in mind that some things must be kept quiet until we have a release date.
-Alex
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Doc,
Sounds great. Too early to sign up for the game at Kublacon?
You might also look at "Great War" as a set of rules to use.
Among other factions to consider are the Klu klux klan, which had over a million members in 1922 and then fell apart after the Indiana scandel. It would not be hard to imagine the group reforming to sizeable numbers.
The Socialists could come in both Urban and Rural types, and be seperate but overlaping with both Urban and Rural Labor Unions.
There could be a split between the various National guard units, which were still supposed to be loyal to the various Governors and the Army and or Marine Corp, which could have their own loyalties.
The FBI was still in its early stages and so there was no single unified Law enforcement front. You could have groups like the Texas Rangers linked to a political faction. Which might be opposed to a group like the Secret service or the Pinkertons. Many States and some cities had anti communist police organizations. There was a lot of overlapping jurisdiction. California for example had both the Department of Justice special agents reporting to the Attorney General (still do) and the State Police which reported to the Governor, as well as the Highway Patrol.
In terms of Gangsters, there are both the Urban organized crime Factions (Al Capone, the 5 New York familes, the Purple gang of Detroit, etc.), and the more Rural Motor Bandits (John, Dillinger, Bonnie and Clyde, etc.) The latter were never a large number in any one place, but if they could have organize around a political idea, then they might have been a real force. They could certainly have ties to Moonshiners and the like.
By the way there is much thought that the real target of the assignination attempt on FDR, was the Mayor of Chicago, who in fact was killed. Two of Al Capones henchman, were in the crowd when the shots were fired. Most evidence points to the shooter (who's name escapes me) only firing 3 times and yet 6 shots were reported.
All in ALL a great idea, I am really looking forward to it.
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There will be actual personalities where possible. We have to be careful with them. Some historical personalities are fair game - Lindbergh was a Fascist sympathizer, that's an historical fact. But others, particularly Hollywood Icons, are a different kettle of fish, as I told a few other people, while I like the idea of Gable flying with a squadron of Constitutionalist bombers, I don't know we could get away with it, no matter how heroic he looked. That said, proxies aren't out of the question.
-Doc
Allegedly Clark Gable suffered from halitosis. Consider employing it as a primitive death ray.
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Proxy characters are the way to go for the most part, especially in the litigious culture we live in today.
Strangely this may be more of a problem in Britain - our libel laws are pretty arcane and *I've been told* (so, allegedly) that the families of certain people around in the '30s will sue you to the hilt if you suggest that their uncles/grandfathers had fascist sympathies.
But I agree, proxy characters, yum. In my own developing take on VBCW, I won't even be using Mosely and the BUF. My reasoning is that Yorkshire and Lancashire will go their own way - "Union? Southern. British League of Fascists!" and the League, led by a Yorkshire butcher (like, a proper trader in cut meat) called Marmaduke Arkwright, will take the place of the BUF.
Still, sounds like a very interesting project Doc, I wish you every success, and look forward to reading more about how it develops!
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There will be actual personalities where possible. We have to be careful with them. Some historical personalities are fair game - Lindbergh was a Fascist sympathizer, that's an historical fact. But others, particularly Hollywood Icons, are a different kettle of fish, as I told a few other people, while I like the idea of Gable flying with a squadron of Constitutionalist bombers, I don't know we could get away with it, no matter how heroic he looked. That said, proxies aren't out of the question.
-Doc
If you have not read Philip Roth's 'The Plot Against America' is a very good source for a somewhat realistic American civil war in the 1930:s.
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Great idea Doc.I can foresee a Woodie Guthrie figure............
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First, before I comment, a dear friend has informed me that I should get my facts right. I seem to have made a guffaw that I -always- get annoyed about when I hear it from my students, and others. Lindbergh, was in fact, a National Socialist sympathizer, not just a Fascist sympathizer (he was, in fact both). Different political movements sprouting from the same tree. (And believe me, if the choice had to be made, you'd much rather have to live under a Fascist).
Leadfool - Too early for Kublacon signup, I believe, but we are trying to have eight player slots. Should be interesting. The assassin you're thinking of is Giuseppe Zangara. I'll also look at Great War, certainly. Might be useful for the larger fights.
Red Orc - You've got an interesting point. The fellows with the VBCW books are having to tread on thin water there, when dealing with historical personalities, and urged me to be very careful, which I shall endeavor to do. In the Untied States, there is a little more leeway if a personality is a recognized public figure, no matter how well connected. Thus the reason that claims can be made for example about JFK having multiple affairs, and the Kennedy's can't do much about it.
Hammers - I'll have a look!
Greywolf - Never say never;) You can, at least, expect a Harry Truman in his WW1 uniform from us, at some point.
-Doc
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Red Orc - You've got an interesting point. The fellows with the VBCW books are having to tread on thin water there, when dealing with historical personalities, and urged me to be very careful, which I shall endeavor to do. In the Untied States, there is a little more leeway if a personality is a recognized public figure, no matter how well connected. Thus the reason that claims can be made for example about JFK having multiple affairs, and the Kennedy's can't do much about it.
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I think there's two things in your favour here - American has more liberal freedom of information laws than the UK, so there's a lot of stuff that's a matter of public record and once the genie's out of the bottle it's hard to stuff it back in again.
Secondly, we have some of the stupidest libel laws on the planet. If I named the families of those who would sue if acusations about Nazi-sympathising grandfathers came out, then, if the 'alleged libel' were accessable in the UK (eg, if someone in the UK could read the content of the accusations over the internet) then I could be sued, even though the alleged libel was actually published in Germany (because that's where LAF is hosted). What's more, Prof Wicheimer could also be sued, at which point, he would have to prove that the accusations I made were true.
In other words; if I said the Old Albert Scoggins of Scumborough on Sea, the famous All-England Champion Batter-Pudding Hurler, had been a Nazi sympathiser, his grandchildren could threaten the Prof with a libel trial; if the Prof calculated he couldn't afford to defend the claim at the High Court, he'd have to settle, which could include shutting down the LAF.
Lots of companies and sometimes families use the libel laws to stifle criticism here all the time. I'm probably not allowed to tell you who. Journalists frequently fall foul of this, luckily newspapers tend to have a lot of money. But bloggers and forums don't, so they're being threatened all the time. Bah! Humbug! Stupid British libel laws and government secrecy!
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If you have not read Philip Roth's 'The Plot Against America' is a very good source for a somewhat realistic American civil war in the 1930:s.
Make sure you get the right work by the author. Basing your game on Portnoy's Complaint, whilst an interesting take might cause funny looks if staged at a convention. :D
If you haven't already you should try googling Smedley Butler and coup. I have an excellent biography of Butler that devotes some space to the putative coup.
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Make sure you get the right work by the author. Basing your game on Portnoy's Complaint, whilst an interesting take might cause funny looks if staged at a convention. :D
Ewwww! lol Just make sure they don't confuse milk bottles and Molotov cocktails... o_o
Although some kosher Mafia characters could be quite fun.
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Make sure you get the right work by the author. Basing your game on Portnoy's Complaint, whilst an interesting take might cause funny looks if staged at a convention. :D
If you haven't already you should try googling Smedley Butler and coup. I have an excellent biography of Butler that devotes some space to the putative coup.
Very familiar with Smedley Butler and the coup, and elements have been incorporated. However, after extensive research on the matter, I find other situations more plausible for the historical attitudes of the time. If for example, the coup had taken place while the nation was in a state of panic...
-Doc
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Untied States
-Doc
Doc, I think you just stumbled over the perfect title for your setting :D.
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Doc, I think you just stumbled over the perfect title for your setting :D.
:D
I think you may be on to something..
-Doc
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Untied States
-Doc
Doc, I think you just stumbled over the perfect title for your setting Cheesy. :D
I think you may be on to something..
-Doc
If only that pesky music group hadn't been there first! ;)
Rather interested in that, though. I'm curious to see how it will differ from the Crimson Skies approach. :)
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How about
States of Panic or The Panic State
as the title.
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Great to read all of this. As a travelling Irishman who first learned wargaming during my adolesence in Wisconsin, I find all this fascinating. I have a real interest in the American Left in this period, and people like John Reed, Woody Guthrie et al. America had some of the most radical left-wingers in the western world at that time. I might just have to introduce a Sacco and Vanzetti battalion into my VBCW games. I already have a unit of rabidly right-wing Catholics, (including nuns with machine guns), who are armed by ex-pats from Boston. The thought of the Hatfields coming out on whichever side the McCoys WEREN'T on, the Shiners settling a few scores against the State Troopers, and guys in their old football helmets setting up roadblocks on country roads... You might even get the IRA running guns BACK into America!
When does that next flight leave?
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California at the time was not yet a center of Leftist activities, strongest in Hollywood perhaps, but Socialists by no means dominated the State. Which way does the Bear Republic jump?
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I've not read it, but you might also want to look up a copy of "It Can't Happen Here" by Sinclair Lewis
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So explain this to us lesser beings who fail to see your version of alt. history.
The 2 main factions are the contitutionalists and the Nationalist. So what is their difference.
If FDR got killed by G. Zangara in Feb 1933, does not John Vance Garner, the VP elect and former speaker of the house get become pres? Then no New Deal etc. The 20th amendment outlines the succession if the President elect dies before the start of term, and was ratified in Jan 1933, just weeks before FDR would have been shot by Zangara. Mind you if the killing happens in 1932....
Overall I really like the idea. I'm thinking on painting up a coalition of black separatists, jewish mobsters and an urban union on one side versus a coalition of some sort of Nationalsit Republican guard (BUF figures), the NRA (IRA figures) and a rural union.
It should be fun whatever the format.
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So explain this to us lesser beings who fail to see your version of alt. history.
The 2 main factions are the contitutionalists and the Nationalist. So what is their difference.
If FDR got killed by G. Zangara in Feb 1933, does not John Vance Garner, the VP elect and former speaker of the house get become pres? Then no New Deal etc. The 20th amendment outlines the succession if the President elect dies before the start of term, and was ratified in Jan 1933, just weeks before FDR would have been shot by Zangara. Mind you if the killing happens in 1932....
Overall I really like the idea. I'm thinking on painting up a coalition of black separatists, jewish mobsters and an urban union on one side versus a coalition of some sort of Nationalsit Republican guard (BUF figures), the NRA (IRA figures) and a rural union.
It should be fun whatever the format.
Fair question:)
I have to keep some of this close to the vest, for copyright purposes, but essentially, what happens is that the attempt on FDR causes a real panic in the country, a sort of revisiting of the Red Scare, inspired by memories of the Wall Street Bombing, and more recently, the Bonus March in 1932. Two competing groups of protesters converge on Washington, complicating matters. (This is based, in part, upon a plan by veterans of the Bonus Army to march on Washington AGAIN in 1933, partly because FDR had expressed opposition to paying the bonus, not a widely known tidbit.)
Hoover is pressured, because of these and other events, to create a sort of "Homeland Security" department, in this case the General Secretary, who will be responsible for coordination of security and prosecuting the "radical Communists" who are suspected to have played a role in the assassination of FDR, as well as the Bonus March and the Wall Street Bombing. (Historical basis for this actually pretty solid. Communist Party, USA -was- planning an armed insurrection at the time, and Giuseppe Zangara, though he never actually claimed any party membership, rambled about killing capitalists and was found to have a copy of "Toward Marxist America" in his possession when his lodgings were searched.)
The General Secretary, Charles Lindbergh, then begins a series of security measures intended to assure the American people that they are safe. One of these measures results in a very badly botched raid on CPUSA headquarters in New York, partly because of arrogant and improper planning by J.Edgar Hoover, which turns the Communists out in force and causes them to adopt a guerilla stance. Another involves attempting to mobilize the National Guard to help "put down the insurrection" due to the size and relative unpreparedness of the US Military at the time, which in itself leads to conflict with states opposed to the use of their National Guard forces for that purpose.
Garner, meanwhile, has not been sworn in when all this has happened, and is essentially powerless to stop it. By the time he -does- take office, Lindbergh is deeply entrenched, and widely supported. Eventually, this leads to his resignation, and the selection of Lindbergh to take his place. There was some suggestion early in discussion that Garner would have supported the Nationalists, but I just don't see it. The man was a real Constitutionalist, and did support the New Deal in as much as he felt it could be constitutionally implemented.
There's a lot more to this, but those are the basics, at any rate.
I think it works out well, and seems more plausible to me than simply marching to Washington and demanding that Roosevelt hand over power to a "General Secretary", which is essentially what the Business Plotters ended up settling on. The problem is that I simply can't see FDR giving up so easily, and I don't think the Business Plot would ultimately have succeeded if handled in that way (though I do believe that the plot was real, and that Smedley Butler wasn't just making it all up, as some have alleged). Granted, that's just my take on it, and your mileage may vary:)
The "Nationalists" are the disparate Americans who support the creation of the Secretary of General Affairs, for a variety of reasons, Many are motivated by patriotism, many by fear of the threat posed by Communism and the radical Socialism that is espoused by supporters of Roosevelt. There are also the major industrialists (Prescott Bush, JP Morgan, etc.) who see this as an opportunity to pursue the agenda of establishing a Fascist government in America (the Fascists being incredibly popular with prominent Americans of the era). So you'd have people as diverse as Charles Lindbergh, Al Smith, and Marcus Garvey involved here.
The Constitutionalists, again simplifying things here, are those who oppose this agenda. In this case, you've got folks like Vice President Charles Curtis and Judge Harry Truman.
Both contain members of the major political parties, though it's fair to say that few, if any, members of the American Socialist Party would openly support the Nationalist cause, given that Lindbergh was fervently anti-Socialist (through a mistaken belief that Socialism and Communism were one in the same, and a general distrust of 'Left Wing' ideas). It's not really fair to say that the Nationalists are all "Right Wing" types, whereas the Constitutionalists are "Left Wingers", as there are Moderates, Liberals, and Conservatives (at least as they are defined by the politics of the 1930s) supporting both of these movements.
There are also numerous local movements. Kentucky is attempting to maintain neutrality and has established what is essentially an Anarcho-Socialist government heavily dominated by the Mining and Industrial Unions. White and Black Nativist movements are growing in power and influence in the South. Communists are fighting a guerilla war, from the mountains of New York State to the coastal cities and settlements (it has been proposed by one contributor that they would have seized control of Seattle, for instance, by the end of 1934). The Mafia has seized control of Chicago. Street fighting is raging in Gary, Indiana. There is a lot more going on, but of course I haven't defined every single state, and how it splits. The essential thing about the period covered by this book is fragmentation and consolidation, rather than huge power blocs ala the first American Civil War. Those will eventually come, but not during the 1934-1936 period (which is the focus of the first book).
The military, such as it is (fairly small in 1933) is split as to what the proper reaction to events should be. Some are totally in support of the Nationalist faction in Washington, while others are seeing a serious threat to civil liberties. The Navy, for example, eventually splits between the two groups.
Most of the officers in the fleet, the vast majority of naval aviators, and the carriers, go with the Nationalists. Many of the sailors in the surface fleet, however, choose to align themselves with the Constitutionalists. The Submarine crews each go their own way. As a result, the Nationalists find themselves with a large number of crew and officers, but without enough ships to put them in, so Naval Infantry Brigades are formed.
All and all, a real mess. Most of them based upon actual political groups and events, or planned events, during the period.
I apologize for the rambling, LF, but I hope that at least gives you some insight as to how I'm thinking. If you have any more questions, even more specific ones, feel free to ask, and I'll do what I can to answer. Obviously, I have to keep some of this close to the chest at the moment, but I'll do what I can to try to help out.
And I -really- like the way you're going with you're proposed units and painting plans.
Jen, who is writing the sections of the book on the American Fascist Party Militia (the Silvershirts) is using the BUF figures to great effect for this purpose. I, meanwhile, have assumed that most of the Unions (but NOT all of them) will have gone with the Constitutionalists and/or supported the Socialists. Not necessarily the Communists, as the American Communist Party was quite loyal to Comintern directorates at the time - one of which specifically prohibited membership in any organized Union.
I have used the Brigade Games "Harlem Hellfighters" to represent Kentucky Defense Force troops, and I'm using Great War US infantry to represent US Army elements. Jen has used the Brigade Games WW1 US Marines to represent some of her own regulars.
Vehicles are a real mixed bag, but I've found justification for using most of the interwar vehicles that my own company manufactures, along with several others.
It's a fun project, and essentially open to all kinds of crazy, entertaining ideas. I hope it catches on.:) Again, if you have any other questions, comments, ideas, etc, I'd love to hear 'em.
Incidentally, if you plan to go to Kublacon this year, we'll be playtesting one of the scenarios from the book, the Battle of La Grange, Kentucky.
-Alex
p.s.
FDR isn't dead yet;)
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Alex,
Thanks for the update. This is great. I might change my coalition make up. The idea of giving the Nationalists a naval infantry force as well as some military or Industriist hired Pinkertons is appealing.
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I wonder when the time will come for AV German CW... Sounds interesting though. I am learning some interesting things about interwar US history just by reading this (and looking in wikipedia).
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Germany sort of had a civil war of sorts during the twenties and early thirties iirc... then some Austrian guy came along and sorted it all out. :?
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Germany sort of had a civil war of sorts during the twenties and early thirties iirc... then some Austrian guy came along and sorted it all out. :?
Well put, Jim;)
If memory serves, Cannon Fodder did a range of "Kameraden", described as "European Revolutionaries" for the 1920s. There had originally been rumors of partisans and other types for use throughout the 1920s, but I'm not sure they ever covered anything beyond Germany's troubles. I do know that they do a figure of a certain Austrian house painter, his cronies, and his enemies. I know that the line is still in existence, but it's currently produced by a company out of the UK (I believe Cannon Fodder was originally based out of Eire, though I could be wrong).
I have gamed "another" conflict called "the German Civil War" quite extensively, in this case the German Campaign of 1866, during the Seven Weeks War. A lot of very colorful battles in that theater, which is almost totally ignored by most folks, who focus almost exclusively on the Austro-Prussian campaign. My Bavarian "chocolate eaters" (as the Prussians called them) have had a number of victories against those needlegun armed noogoodniks!
-Doc
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Yeah, I was aware of the clashes and uprisings of the 20s, but they never got to a point of a full scale civil war. I was thinking more of a January uprising that went a bit further... The federal nature of the Weimar Republic could offer a variety of interesting factions, I can imagine. On the other hand, I can understand if Germany stays a bit of a tabu for such imaginary timelines, considering the reality.
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As a big VBCW player, I wish you well in all this. A very interesting background for a "what if".
I know your laws are a little different but I'd recommend the use of proxy names where things can be a bit sensitive. My leading character is the "Duke of Montfort" as the nephew of the then Duke of B... has inherited the title and I'd rather not rub him up the wrong way by insinuating things about his royally-connected uncle.
I'd also suggest that you go down the line we have of NOT having an "official" set of rules. If it takes off like the VBCW has, you'll get all sorts of people wanting to game their own bit in their own way. Perhaps suggest some modifications to give a bit of local atmosphere...
Again, all the best with this and I hope it goes over big time. I might have to start pumping my new sister-in-law on the state of things in Texas at this time.
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As a big VBCW player, I wish you well in all this. A very interesting background for a "what if".
I know your laws are a little different but I'd recommend the use of proxy names where things can be a bit sensitive. My leading character is the "Duke of Montfort" as the nephew of the then Duke of B... has inherited the title and I'd rather not rub him up the wrong way by insinuating things about his royally-connected uncle.
I'd also suggest that you go down the line we have of NOT having an "official" set of rules. If it takes off like the VBCW has, you'll get all sorts of people wanting to game their own bit in their own way. Perhaps suggest some modifications to give a bit of local atmosphere...
Again, all the best with this and I hope it goes over big time. I might have to start pumping my new sister-in-law on the state of things in Texas at this time.
Thank you for the good wishes. If you notice, both issues have already been discussed at length, here. No official ruleset, for example. As I discussed with Simon at Solway, it will be very similar in concept and approach to AVBCW.
-Doc
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I might have to start pumping my new sister-in-law
[/quote]
How's your brother feel about that? lol
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I might have to start pumping my new sister-in-law
How's your brother feel about that? lol
There a vary open famly lol
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I purposely didn't respond to such an obvious opening for a double-entendre... you should be ashamed of yourselves! ;)
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I am ashamed.....That baron beat me to it :D
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I have no shame. I'm a wargamer.
-J
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I know I am most likely missing some thing, but is the new deal over turned? Or was it even inacted in the first place in the fluff?
This will most likly be the decideing facter on a few things I am working on.
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New deal was enacted in the real world from 1933 on, with FDR as President. If the historical break point is the assignation attempt of President elect, FDR, in Feb. 1932, before he took office, then no I do not see any New deal
Also FDR's VP, John Nance Garner, was not a new deal advocate.
Lindbergh, the "General Secretary" would oppose the New Deal.
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New deal was enacted in the real world from 1933 on, with FDR as President. If the historical break point is the assignation attempt of President elect, FDR, in Feb. 1932, before he took office, then no I do not see any New deal
Also FDR's VP, John Nance Garner, was not a new deal advocate.
Lindbergh, the "General Secretary" would oppose the New Deal.
Psst... attempt on FDR was in 33, not 32:)
-Alex
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Right, typo 1933 not 1932.,
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Is there a planned release date yet?
I'm certainly going to try to make the Kublacon game. & definately let us know if we can sign up with you ahead of time.
Any chance there'll be someone we could pick up T&T from at the convention?
Thanks
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Is there a planned release date yet?
I'm certainly going to try to make the Kublacon game. & definately let us know if we can sign up with you ahead of time.
Any chance there'll be someone we could pick up T&T from at the convention?
Thanks
Look forward to seeing you if you do. They have a weird sign up system at Kubla, but I'll see what I can work out.
The target is sometime in Summer, but I have a couple of contributing writers who have asked for more time to flesh out their sections (and I've agreed, since they've been so nice to help out), so beyond that I'm not certain. Definitely this year, but beyond that, Idunno. Maybe August/Septemberish?
-Alex
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The Navy, for example, eventually splits between the two groups.
Most of the officers in the fleet, the vast majority of naval aviators, and the carriers, go with the Nationalists. Many of the sailors in the surface fleet, however, choose to align themselves with the Constitutionalists. The Submarine crews each go their own way. As a result, the Nationalists find themselves with a large number of crew and officers, but without enough ships to put them in, so Naval Infantry Brigades are formed.
I forsee one hell of a barney over control of the panama canal
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That's for book 3 or 4 "Fall of the American Empire" About the Panama Canal, Alaska, Hawaii, the philippians and all of her other pacific, caribbean and south american territories. Lots of stuff involving japan, marinas, and the Nat and Con fleets trying to decided if they actually want to kill each other. :D
See I am thinking big with this project
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And there's nothing wrong with that at all. How convenient that I have Japanese in the appropriate period uniforms out shortly;)
-Alex
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And there's nothing wrong with that at all. How convenient that I have Japanese in the appropriate period uniforms out shortly;)
-Alex
Really? I didnt know ;)
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One thing about VBCW that I was drawn to was how much it was like the British comedies I love watching. Totally idiosyncratic e.g. cups of tea before, during and after battle; an obsession with the weather; language like "bounder", "dash it" & "dashed" etc.
How do you think the approach to ACW2 will be? A bit tongue in cheek or is it shaping up to be a serious Turtledove-like affair?
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I am thinking a little bit of both.
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I am thinking a little bit of both.
Which is probably the best way. Humour is subjective (or Humor for you colonials) and when you play something purely for laughs, people tend to take things the same way and refuse to regard 'your period' seriously. Real life has its funny moments and idiosyncrasies and they are all the funnier because of it. Humour will write itself into any game you play, but when you write it in, you are often the only one laughing... everyone else is just rolling their eyes.
:)
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right you are Jim
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How do you think the approach to ACW2 will be? A bit tongue in cheek or is it shaping up to be a serious Turtledove-like affair?
For our games at least at has been both - serious introduction (mitigated with puns and inside jokes) and then the game plays out like the Keystone cops. Tuesday's game had a timed objective but between both players trying to outsmart each other, bad reinforcement rolls and random event cards the first two turns had only an old man and his dog on one side and three deserters trying to get to the local brothel on the other.
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Sounds about right to me.
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the first two turns had only an old man and his dog on one side and three deserters trying to get to the local brothel on the other
lol
That sounds like a great game already!
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Pitching the idea for this to my game pals, it fell pretty seriously into Turtledove territory, especially when we started kicking around ideas for a locally based campaign.
In 1930, Cleveland, OH was the 6th largest city in the US, with 1.2 million people in the immediate area. Nearly half of those people were either immigrants or first-generation Americans, while nearby cities had seen the largest Klan marches outside the Deep South a few years earlier. (The Nativist movement was galvinized bythe presence of so many "hyphenated Americans"). Given the city's position as a crucial Great Lakes port, rail hub, steel-making and industrial center, we foresaw a lot of ugly street-fighting pitting the Nativists and the Lindbergher Nationalist-Fascist alliance against the "New American" ethnic groups and labor unions (which overlapped one another strongly) That kind of fighting would periodically paralyze the city. With the Nationalist Government trying to secure the Ohio River Valley, having a restive Cleveland in their rear-area would be intolerable. To secure their line of advance, they'd be forced to "clean house"...
Hmmm. The Seige of Leningrad, re-set on the shores of Lake Erie?
Like I said - ugly. But interesting.
(On a semi-related note, I did a scenario some time ago from the 1889 Turtledove novel "How Few Remain" that involved the Royal Navy Great Lakes squadron attacking the Port of Cleveland in the opening days of the Second Mexican War. [US vs. the Confederacyand her allies Britain and France] We used a set of home-brew pre-dreadnought naval rules. That was a fun afternoon.)
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I see more of a lebanon 1970s-1980s switchwashion, with different factions devideing up the town and careering on a low intensity campaign against each other with periodic flair ups, block assultes, assanations and bombings as a opposed to a full on bring up the guns and flatten the city. Mostly because of the city being so evenly divided between "natives", "non-natives", political groups and "non-natives" that are trying gain favor with there gov and natives. And as its importance as you said in being and industral hub with port access. that being said, the "Black legion", I think we are using the term "white legion" for them, the militant arm of the KKK at the time was reported to have over 50,000 active members. Not includeing the reguler membership even.
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Pitching the idea for this to my game pals, it fell pretty seriously into Turtledove territory, especially when we started kicking around ideas for a locally based campaign.
In 1930, Cleveland, OH was the 6th largest city in the US, with 1.2 million people in the immediate area. Nearly half of those people were either immigrants or first-generation Americans, while nearby cities had seen the largest Klan marches outside the Deep South a few years earlier. (The Nativist movement was galvinized bythe presence of so many "hyphenated Americans"). Given the city's position as a crucial Great Lakes port, rail hub, steel-making and industrial center, we foresaw a lot of ugly street-fighting pitting the Nativists and the Lindbergher Nationalist-Fascist alliance against the "New American" ethnic groups and labor unions (which overlapped one another strongly) That kind of fighting would periodically paralyze the city. With the Nationalist Government trying to secure the Ohio River Valley, having a restive Cleveland in their rear-area would be intolerable. To secure their line of advance, they'd be forced to "clean house"...
Hmmm. The Seige of Leningrad, re-set on the shores of Lake Erie?
Like I said - ugly. But interesting.
(On a semi-related note, I did a scenario some time ago from the 1889 Turtledove novel "How Few Remain" that involved the Royal Navy Great Lakes squadron attacking the Port of Cleveland in the opening days of the Second Mexican War. [US vs. the Confederacyand her allies Britain and France] We used a set of home-brew pre-dreadnought naval rules. That was a fun afternoon.)
That's good, SBR. Real good. I like it:)
In the drafts of the book I've been working on, Cincinnati has been mentioned several times. This may be of some help to you for background material, but feel free to ignore if you prefer:) Dates are provisional here, but they're roughly correct.
Essentially, Cincinnati was one of the most important "first" targets for the Ohio River Valley Campaign of 1934, as it was controlled by a coalition of various "anti-Nationalist" groups. Socialists, Communists, Farmers Leagues, Anarchists, etc, who had essentially gotten rid of the "establishment" city government and proclaimed Cincinnati a "free city". In early June, the first Nationalist elements of Patton's Army arrived and requested that the city "open its doors" and remove various street barricades to allow the Nationalist forces to cross through the city. The Coalition government "politely" declined. Patton responded by reinforcing the small Nationalist spearhead and essentially requesting, not so nicely this time, that the city open up.
Some time around June 6th, tensions escalated and shots were fired (as so often in these events, nobody knows for certain -who- fired the shot). On the 8th, Patton delivered an ultimatum to the city, demanding that it surrender or face the consequences of "civil unrest". The city refused, and the Battle of Cincinnati officially began. Artillery strikes against a populated city were considered to be in bad taste, at least that early in the war, so there was very little preparatory blasting before the first Nationalist attack on the city, around the 10th, though there was low intensity sniping from both sides as tensions continued to escalate.
On June 10th and 11th, 3rd Naval Infantry Brigade attempted to storm the barricades of the city, and was violently repulsed - so violently repulsed that 3rd Naval Infantry Brigade was actually pulled from the line, and didn't return to service until later in the year.
Unfortunately for the defenders, the coalition government was deadlocked over the proper response to the Nationalist attack, and this significantly weakened the defense in the days to follow. On the 13th of June, Patton stepped up the assault, backing it up with US Army elements and Silvershirts. This was followed by eight days of street fighting, into which the various factions defending the city fell into pointless bickering and actually exchanged shots amongst themselves. Cincinnati finally fell on the 21st, and the door to the rest of the campaign was unlocked.
The international community was horrified by what had happened at Cincinnati, and various foreign aid packages arrived, but the city wouldn't fully recover until after the war. It wouldn't be the last city to suffer during the war, but it was certainly among the most prominent in that phase of the fighting, demonstrating without a doubt that the government was serious about cracking down, and that the various anti-Nationalist movements were equally serious about fighting back.
In essence, while there had certainly been other battles beforehand, this was the "Bull Run" of the Second American Civil War, and demonstrated that the conflict was going to be much more serious, and much more violent, then had been widely anticipated.
-Doc
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SBR, if you use this background also you could do lots of resistance type actions against the "occupiers" and have clever banners and posters in Con forces with the battle cry "Remember Cleveland!"
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(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/adwyn/phot5323a.jpg)
Patton intiates "Very Little Prepatory Bombardment"
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yeah just enough to let them know we mean business
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Great picture, Cory. Where'd you find it?:)
-Doc
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Just the ticket for prising oversized chimpanzees off tall buildings.
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Re: Cincinnati, mustn't forget that it had a large German-American community - the American Bund could be a Nationalist Fifth Column inside the Not-So-Open-City.
I'm currently working on a campaign outline "The White Motor Riots" detailing the early stages of the Battle of Cleveland. The inciting incident was the discovery by the workers of the White Motor Company (a maker of heavy trucks) that the large order of armored cars built "for Britain" (including the visit to the assembly plant by a bowler-hatted, plummy-sounding "British trade rep") had actually been shipped into Canada, then back across the border in Alberta to open a second front in the Anaconda Campaign. The newsreel shots of the ensuing massacre at Missoula, Montana sparked the eponymous riots, which led inexorably to all-out warfare.
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Hah, being in Missoula, that's the sort of thing we have been gaming.
Eventually though my Wobblies will prevail and the copper barons driven out! Death to the Anaconda!
The picture is from a bunch I scrounged from the net last year, it's a national guard demonstration.
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UTAH!!!!!........ :D
In My research Its seems that Utah was both pro labor and pro business. I am honestly thinking that they would pull a neutral stance or go con. With only a few exceptions being the imagrent mining communities in the south that had a history of strikes, and already had a martyr in the form of Joe Hill, poet laureate of the Wobblies, for an alleged Salt Lake murder. And had a strong Miner, smelter and mill workers union in the 30s.
George Dern, there former governor was the Secretary of War and was know for taking his job vary serous. It was under him that the military started to get modernized. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_H._Dern
And there Current gov Henry H. Blood was vary pro new deal and Roosevelt and the new deal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_H._Blood
And from what I know read the mormons were usually and really pro right to work in the late 30s, and not pro communist (because of the anti relegues stance of that organization ) or rocking the boat so to say. They were know to have a vary moderating voice in the Unions in Utah.
that being said they are vary organized on the ward and temple level so it would be extremely hard for an insurgency to take root with out overall consent from the community as a whole.
Utah was also a big proponent of The national, anti-union, open-shop American Plan of the 1920s. So I am thinking that it would be torn with moderate civil strife tell the national guard and the 38th inf out of Salt lake could were able to reinstate authority. then the 38th would get sent to one of the "fronts" leavening the national guard, and other groups to mantain order.
Its also a stgice railroads state the Natinalist would be there in force, after they fought there way threw what I am guessing will be a left leaning Calarado.
http://www.media.utah.edu/UHE/l/LABOR.html
The main problem it would have is that in 1934 Utah had its worst recorded drought in history. Utahan’s were left without food, clothing, shelter, and employment.
So if it wasnt allied with some faction with some kind of deal or another you would be seeing a 1930s style humanintarian disaters.
I see Utah/Deseret having several unifying things that most other places lack and that is single religion, a history of being different and physical isolation.
So what dose ever one think? Neutral indapandice minded Deseret or "Fortress Utah" Southern mounten Bastion of the west and the Consitution. Pift if nothing else have FDR hold up there, its flanked by mountains and desert, a relativly small force could hold it.
What do you think? Critiqes?
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See You at Kubla con
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We'll definitely be there:)
Incidentally, the rules we'll be using have been finalized, after many playtests. "Heroes of the Russian Civil War", a modification of Brother Against Brother, have proven to work very well, with a few tweaks for the period.
-Doc
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What days and events will ever one be playing at Kubla con? I will be in the Sac yeah this weeknd for a weding.
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I'll be there all weekend. I'm looking forward to Doc's game.
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Geez-Louise, :o I don't need to be tempted ;) by this! o_o
lol
:?
Gracias,
Glenn
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Yes, yes you do.
Actually it's not so bad. When we first started fiddling with the concept it was because are gangster and pulp collections had grown too large and if we wanted to get that much lead on the table we needed a better excuse.. It is only lately that we've added game specific figures.
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In the early 1930s, the communist party in Germany (KPD) had a uniformed section, designed to fight the SA. This photo shows that the US Communists copied both the uniform style of their German comrades and their peculiar musical instruments. Anyone know anything about these wierd intruments? Inspiration for Communist militia in VACW?
http://www.corbisimages.com/Enlargement/En...s&caller=search
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First, before I comment, a dear friend has informed me that I should get my facts right. I seem to have made a guffaw that I -always- get annoyed about when I hear it from my students, and others. Lindbergh, was in fact, a National Socialist sympathizer, not just a Fascist sympathizer (he was, in fact both). Different political movements sprouting from the same tree. (And believe me, if the choice had to be made, you'd much rather have to live under a Fascist).
Could this lead to further mob splits. If you have actual anti-semitic factions on the go then you not only have everyday Jewish workers but you also have Jewish gangsters like Dutch Schultz and Bugsie Siegel.
Would/Could the Jewish gangsters help their co-religionists
Given Il Duce's crack downs on the Mafia in ITaly, would the Mob be anti-Fascist?
Is this taking place in the same milieu as the British split into factions?
If so then what is happening in Canada? Does this reduce war supplies from America to Britian, does Franco take over Spain more quickly without the International Brigades from Britain?
All very complex, my brain hurts
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Doc,
Any pictures from the Kubla con game?
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How did Kubl turn out? :)
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At the Kubla Con game the Kentucky boys handled the Nationalists quite roughly. The Nationalists didn't accomplish their objective in pushing through La Grange and suffered heavy casualties while trying to occupy the town. At game end they had only taken the southern third of La Grange -- probably suffered ~40+ figures in casualties. Their high water mark came with an assault on the local tavern, held by Kentucky Regulars -- an entire unit of Silver shirts died to the man against those Kentucky boys. The Kentuckians weren't unscathed, though, losing an armored car, their Schneider tank and about 15-20 casualties. The Militia took the worst beating, getting chewed up by the Nationalist navy gun and some MG fire. I'm sure the event organizer will have an AAR and some pics up -- it was a really enjoyable game, and I'm looking forward to getting the supplement when it comes out this Summer.
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Doc,
Any photos from the Kubla con game???
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Doc,
Any photos from the Kubla con game???
Actually, we do have a few. Now that this computer is up and running, I can probably get some posted this weekend. Will try to get them up tomorrow or Saturday.
-Doc
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Great, looking forward to it.
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Great, looking forward to it.
Ok, I've got them on the computer. If I don't get them posted here tonight, tomorrow shouldn't be a problem.
-Alex
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Hey Doc,
I'm looking forward to the book. I just played a game with the Sacramento guys two weeks ago and I'm hooked.
BTW, I think we played against each other on Sunday at Kublacon. The Battle of Zambezi River, using Triumph and Tragedy. It was a good time.
Jason