Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Pulp => Topic started by: Bravo Six on March 28, 2010, 08:51:26 AM
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I know this has been talked about over at TMP and there are bits and bobs useful from the likes of Khurusan, Peter Pig and Brigade, but certainly with the explosion of 15mm figures lately for sci-fi, WWII, Vietnam, etc, I'm wondering if it's time for someone to step up and start pumping out heroes and villains in the smaller scale. No? :?
I know the 28mm crowd here is shouting "blasphamy" and while I agree that pulp is more established and better represented in that scale, I think 15mm pulp has the potential to be wildly successful. Especially for the storagely challenged like myself.
What do you 15mm fans think?
:` *braces for the barrage*
-Todd
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It seems a fair assumption that the revival of 15mm for the 20th century and after is largely down to the success of Flames of War. If so, Pulp might well be a viable add-on to whatever's already available for the early-mid century.
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As a painter one of the most appealing things about Pulp Figures and "suitable for Pulp" other ranges is the amount of "character" and "characters." Not sure 15mm would allow that amount of detail.
And I thought that, from a gaming point of view, "Pulp" is skirmish-size so you don't need that many figures. Or am I wrong?
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Even 15mm skirmish is getting popular.
Let's face it, you could have damn bigger pyramids to search! :D
I think 15mm does allow for that much detail, not necessarily the same amount, but it would work.
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I agree with Orctrader. 15 mm is fine for lots of models but I personally think they suck for individual characters. Of course it would be nice to be able to play a pulp game on - let's say - the top of my computer. But it looses the feeling of individual persons there. I think even 20mm are a bit too small.
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I've been veering towards 20mm for my Pulp needs, particularly for larger battles. The figures scale up nicely to the 1:72 matchbox and hotwheels cars, and size wise they are not at the point where too much detail is lost. Storage wise they are a breeze, I modified some GW cases to hold double the amount of figures using the 1:72 scale, and the unmodified recesses are perfect for holding vehicles.
I'd love to see more 20mm stuff myself, the figures coming out of Caesar are brilliant these days. Given that they've done fantasy figures in the past, including metal ones. It would be fantastic for them to do a pulp line, or even just a boxed set or two.
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Heya Todd!
I am a big fan of 15mm, but it just doesn't have the same appeal to me when it comes to pulp games. For me the advantage of 15mm is all about space and cost.
We already play on a 3' x 3' table, so space is not really a concern. And we normally play with less than 10 models per player, so cost isn't really that big of deal. Now I know there are players using the Pulp Alley rules for their 15mm and 20mm, as well as 28mm figures. So maybe its just a matter of personal taste. But as for me, I'll stick with the superior visual appeal of 28mm characters for my pulp games.
HAVE FUN!
Dave
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I've been considering using both the 28 & 20mm scales for my games. The smaller one for battles involving vehicles and small armies, with the larger scale used in skirmish games.
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I think that the practical application for 15mm is to allow more room for vehicles, buildings, and troop formations, and these things don't usually come into play that much in pulp-themed gaming (buildings yes, but vehicles and troop formations, no). 15mm seems admirably suited to VSF (where vehicles tend to play a larger role) but the application just isn't there for Pulp (which tends to be character-driven and RPG-influenced).
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I have no interest in 15mm figures, for most of the same reasons as stated above, lack of character being my primary concern, but also the costs of replacing what I already have.
Furthermore, if I ever branch into even larger scale battles (currently I'm doing large scale battles in 28mm anyway) which required even more armoured vehicles than I am currently employing, or if I want to fight battles over longer ranges, then I would look to N scale which seems far more suited to that kind of game than 15mm.
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I would be all for a 15mm pulp range or two. 15mm suits my available budget and matches most of the terrain I already have. I do have 28mm pulp figures, but I could sell those to fund the new scale. I don't actually enjoy painting 28mm figures that much anyway (heresy, I know!) so 15mm would suit me better.
Cheers,
Ruarigh
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I have no problem with the scale, I have quite a few historical armies in 15mm but Pulp is just wrong on so many levels.
The biggest problem I see is that characters like command figures are needed in very small numbers (singles) by each player therefore reducing sales immensely. Which manufacturers would/could produce a range limited in that way. 28mm singles are double/triple the price of std. unit troops like say Perry so the same would apply.
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I read a good reason, somewhere, in support of 15mm over 28mm. The idea was that the range of weaponry scales better on the limited space of a tabletop when the figures are smaller. A 15mm troop shooting a rifle 12" is more realistic than a 28mm rifleman shooting to a max 12".
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A 15mm troop shooting a rifle 12" is more realistic than a 28mm rifleman shooting to a max 12".
Yes, that works where there's a lot of lon-range firing but most pulp takes place in limited or enclosed space where maximum ranges don't matter anyway.
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The amount of detail that sculptors are getting into 15mm is on the level of 28mm now days. I have seen some 15mm paint jobs that, without anything telling me otherwise, I would swear were 28mm.
But, beyond individual tastes, there is a market for it. Some people don't want to have two sets of terrain, don't have lots of table space, or don't have the time to paint 28mm stuff but still want to play Pulp genre games. For the price of a one or two 28mm Pulp figs (depending on n manufacturer), I could have a whole pack of 15mm heroes. Some of the crazy contraptions are also cheaper or easier to make smaller than bigger as well.
There are a lot of pluses.
-Eli
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the 15mm figures I did took more than 6 years to breakeven.
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Some people don't want to have two sets of terrain, don't have lots of table space...
-Eli
Eli,
This pretty much sums up why I use 15mm for all my gaming including skirmish games such as BAB and GASLIGHT.
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the 15mm figures I did took more than 6 years to breakeven.
And that's one of the reasons that 15mm Pulp is not a going concern, at least from a manufacturer's perspective. 15mm Armies are just that, Armies, in most cases, because 15mm miniatures are rather difficult to produce in sufficient quantity while at the same time managing to make any sort of profit (or at least break even). You need to sell them in a way that will encourage consumers to buy large packs of them, rather than buying them individually.
Consider that 15mm sculpts usually cost as much as 28mm sculpts, and that you need twice as many cast up, in a typical spin, to make them profitable.
Add in to this that Pulp is very much a niche interest in wargaming. (Say it ain't so Doc! Well, it is, sadly), and that most war gamers expect to pay no more than, say, 1.50 per 15mm figure, and you've got yourself a real dilemma.
It's just not viable. So while there may be interest in 15mm Pulp, I seriously doubt that you'll see a dedicated range until a better, cheaper way of developing miniatures is developed.
I do think 15mm Pulp would be fun, and I've looked into it, but that's the reality of the situation.
-Doc
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Gosh, they would have to be tasty little pulp 15's to win me over... But I could see it working well for car chases and the like.
Based on the pure visual excitement of Mr. Murch's display & game at Trumpeters Salute in Vancouver this year several of us decided to embark on a 28mm pulp project.
C'mon B'6, join us... o_o We provide the terrain, we provide the peril, you have nothing to loose... ;D
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Based on the pure visual excitement of Mr. Murch's display & game at Trumpeters Salute in Vancouver this year several of us decided to embark on a 28mm pulp project.
He does that to people, doesn't he? Me, for example. And look where that leads. lol
15mm was where I got started in miniature wargaming; for massed combat without breaking the budget it's awesome; for modern/SF stuff with long-ranged weapons and more vehicles on the table it's ideal. For character-driven stuff like pulp tends to be? Not so much.
28mm allows so much more room for characters & personality on individual figures.
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He does that to people, doesn't he? Me, for example. And look where that leads. lol
15mm was where I got started in miniature wargaming; for massed combat without breaking the budget it's awesome; for modern/SF stuff with long-ranged weapons and more vehicles on the table it's ideal. For character-driven stuff like pulp tends to be? Not so much.
28mm allows so much more room for characters & personality on individual figures.
Couldn't have said it better.
In a game I presented last Saturday the players prefered to see more character development and application of skills (Omitted) over larger unit deployment.
(Each player ((9)) 'Pushed' a unit of about 10 figures in an abbreviated combat resolution system.)
Seems the gamers at our club prefer a bit more depth rather than massed combat capability.
The game genre probably patterns it self to the core movies that support it like: The "Indiana Jones" series, and "The Mummy" series, to name only two.
Could it be that the players bring a set of expectations of what a "Pulp" game should be?
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There are plenty of smaller companies that have done a good job making smaller collections of hero models for everything from uniformed cops, survivalists, terrorists, bank robbers, etc.. I think there is a market for 15mm pulp heroes.
Blue Moon Manufacturing just released several packs of 15mm pirates, townsfolk, cowboys, etc that have a tone of character. They are charging $15 for 31 cowboys on foot, $22 for 38 Old West townsfolk, $35 for 30 mounted cowboys. For pirates they have 10 different captains for $8 with crew and gun packs available as well. The sculpting on these figs looks quite nice and the figures appear to have a lot of character.
I am not saying that 15mm will replace 28mm, nor should it, but for those who already have a commitment or sizable investment to 15mm it would sure be nice to have the option. Perhaps it is time for the pulp folks to contact Blue Moon. Afterall, they have extensive lines of 28mm pulp already.
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I'm very impressed with the Cowboy line. Combined with some Flames or War Germans, and I could see 15mm being used for Pulpy WWII games.
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There are plenty of smaller companies that have done a good job making smaller collections of hero models for everything from uniformed cops, survivalists, terrorists, bank robbers, etc.. I think there is a market for 15mm pulp heroes.
Blue Moon Manufacturing just released several packs of 15mm pirates, townsfolk, cowboys, etc that have a tone of character. They are charging $15 for 31 cowboys on foot, $22 for 38 Old West townsfolk, $35 for 30 mounted cowboys. For pirates they have 10 different captains for $8 with crew and gun packs available as well. The sculpting on these figs looks quite nice and the figures appear to have a lot of character.
I am not saying that 15mm will replace 28mm, nor should it, but for those who already have a commitment or sizable investment to 15mm it would sure be nice to have the option. Perhaps it is time for the pulp folks to contact Blue Moon. Afterall, they have extensive lines of 28mm pulp already.
A couple points, if I may.
First of all, Blue Moon is not a small company. They are quite a bit larger than my own operation, and they are an affiliate of the largest historical miniatures manufacturer in the United States (Old Glory). The "small companies" you're talking of are doing 25mm figures as heroes, which are considerably less risky to market as individuals. The "small" 15mm manufacturers (Rebel, for example) are making their money by doing troop packs (ie: soldiers for army builders), rather than as individual personalities. Also, Western Figs sell better than Pulp figs, in general. I don't know why, it's just the way that goes. And I'm not sure how Blue Moon is planning to make a profit on this, except that, most likely, they do their own casting in house (or Old Glory does it) which reduces their costs considerably.
Also, I wouldn't call their Pulp ranges "extensive". They have a handful of sets. Their Science Fiction sets aren't Pulp, and their Horror sets aren't Pulp. It's only a small fraction of what they do.
There may be a market for 15mm Pulp, but it is not a market in which anybody is going to make any money, unless said individuals have -large- amounts of capital to sink into a project. Pulp makes up a tiny sliver of a niche market. We're talking about fifteen percent, maybe, of the total miniatures sold these days. Those of us in the 28mm business of making/selling pulp are just barely breaking even in many cases, hence the reason that several are diversifying their periods, covering other things in other genres.
The only alternative might be to do this via a subscription service, but beyond that, I just don't see a skirmish game focusing primarily upon individual characters as being profitable in 15mm. You'd need to have a complete package to even hope to attract business. Terrain, rules, a complete range of figures (not just one or two packs), etc.
Let me put this another way. Four 15mm figures might cost around $400 to get sculpted. Add in the cost of a master mold ($100), plus the cost of a production mold ($50), then add in the cost "per spin" of around (and this is being conservative) 2.00. Assuming you want to have, say, a minimum of ten spins, there's another $20 bucks.
You've now spent $570 dollars on this range. Not bad, right? Except that you have to break even to make the investment "worthwhile". That means making at least what you paid back in sales.
Ok. We have forty figures and $570.00 to make back. That means that, if I sold the entire set, each and every figure, I'd have to sell them at $14.75 EACH to make back a profit of any kind. And Pulp gamers know that the majority of Pulp games involve a handful of character figures, backed up by troops in perhaps larger numbers.
I'm not saying that there isn't a chance this could work, and I don't mean to dishearten anyone. I think it's a wonderful idea. It's just that the reality is that 15mm skirmish scale is simply not practicable economically for the Pulp Genre.
-Doc
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I might point out that Rebel offers 20+ different packs of what could be considered skirmish-level figures - special forces teams, SWAT, hostages, zombie hunters, etc.
I wasn't saying that New Moon was small.They qwere included as an example of how figures for that sort of scaled game could be done on a sales model other than packs of 6-8 figs.
You are right about their pulp line. I was thinking of yours actually (got my companies crossed mid-typing).
I will say that from an economics standpoint, that one of the prohibitive factors involved in pulp as a successful genre might just be the scale. From my own experiences I was not able to keep up with 28mm Pulp because the variety of figures needed to keep an ongoing series of games interesting was cost-prohibitive in 28mm. Buying a dozeninterwar soldiers for just a couple of battles and then having to buy a dozen or more mobsters for a few more, then having to buy a whole gang of Chinese bandits, etc, etc..
In 15mm if I need Nazis, I just borrow a few from my FOW stuff as well as vehicles and otherwise. If I need Back of Beyond hostiles, I can borrow from my 15mm RCW, SCW, etc. Dinoaurs are more affordible in 15mm as are lost world natives and the like.
If 15mm could successfully make the jump to 15mm it might give the genre as a gaming medium a shot in the arm.
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Well like I said before, there is 1:72 scale. The plastic models for it are fairly extensive and diverse. They match up nicely with matchbox cars and many of the plastic model kits. The figures are large enough to have a good deal of character, but small enough to be affordable and use a smaller amount of space. Here are some old pictures of my adventuring chaps, some Afrika Korps and Skeletons.
Our five Brave Heroes
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee131/P_Clapham/IMG_1520.jpg)
Cornered by the Germans!
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee131/P_Clapham/IMG_1522.jpg)
The Ahnenerbe Expedition Advances!
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee131/P_Clapham/IMG_1524.jpg)
Investigators vs the Undead!
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee131/P_Clapham/IMG_1527.jpg)
Most of the figures come from Caesar. For the German army pack it was 37 figures for a little more than $10 for me. I estimate the figures cost around 30 to 40 cents a pop. As they are plastic, the miniatures are very easy to convert or kitbash.
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1/72 is a great scale if you haven't already invested heavily in other scales. I almost made a shift to 1/72 myself a while back and still buy them as starter minis for my daughters who both want to play miniatures games.
I am still not convinced that 15mm Pulp is a no-go. From my experience with 15mm gamers there is a willingness to pay more for a handful of models with good character and nobody out there producing small, skirmish level sets of figs seems to think they need to be sold at $14/fig. I understand the numbers you are using there, but others seem to be managing otherwise.
Looking at what is out there somemore, I found the following -
Rebel Minis sells theres in packs of approx 20 figs for about $11 or 12 figs for $7. I will buy 12 figs for $7. They even have sets of 4 figs for 2.99
Khurasan offers a trio of Pulp Adventurers for 2.99 and Lizardmen at 5 for 2.99 among others.
I think that if it was done, it would all come down how the figures were grouped together into sets. Pulp relies on a lot of archetypes and most fans of pulp are going to use all of those archetypes at some point. Grouping archetypes into themed sets would get the count up on a particular casting allowing for the filling of molds.
As an example using the model that Rebel and Blue Moon seem to be using you could having sets likes -
Cops and Robbers - 20 figs 1/3 uniformed officers with various weapons, and 2/3 various crooks, thugs, bank robbers, etc with assorted weapons and character.
G-Men and Gangsters - This is an easy one because 20 guys in suits, hats, jackets, etc can be painted and used as either.
Heroes and Villains (10 for $8 or so) - This is where you put your assorted Pulp heroes and their nemesis. Steel-jawed adventurers, Jungle Lords, Gal Fridays, Good Doctors, Rocket Heroes, Shadowy Crusdaders and their like can be mixed in various combos with Mad scientists, Criminal Masterminds, Fu Manchu, Dragon Lady, Cult Leader, etc.
The fact that a couple of companies are already doing projects that are close or that support games that function on the same level as a lot of pulp games would seem to indicate that it is not impossible but quite possible.
-Eli
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I wish this was being done with the 1:72 scale miniatures. I've had to pick up quite a few packs to get a good collection of pulp minis. Don't know of any companies that do decent looking gangsters in that scale.
I think that if it was done, it would all come down how the figures were grouped together into sets. Pulp relies on a lot of archetypes and most fans of pulp are going to use all of those archetypes at some point. Grouping archetypes into themed sets would get the count up on a particular casting allowing for the filling of molds.
As an example using the model that Rebel and Blue Moon seem to be using you could having sets likes -
Cops and Robbers - 20 figs 1/3 uniformed officers with various weapons, and 2/3 various crooks, thugs, bank robbers, etc with assorted weapons and character.
G-Men and Gangsters - This is an easy one because 20 guys in suits, hats, jackets, etc can be painted and used as either.
Heroes and Villains (10 for $8 or so) - This is where you put your assorted Pulp heroes and their nemesis. Steel-jawed adventurers, Jungle Lords, Gal Fridays, Good Doctors, Rocket Heroes, Shadowy Crusdaders and their like can be mixed in various combos with Mad scientists, Criminal Masterminds, Fu Manchu, Dragon Lady, Cult Leader, etc.
The fact that a couple of companies are already doing projects that are close or that support games that function on the same level as a lot of pulp games would seem to indicate that it is not impossible but quite possible.
-Eli
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Well, so far it's not being done with 15mm Pulp either. Modern Ops, Sci-fi, Horror, and a few smatterings of other genres are where I am seeing most of the skirmish-level 15mm being made. Peter Pig has done pirates and Old West in 15mm for a long while before Blue Moon started.
Hopefully somebody will decide to give 15mm Pulp a go. Even a few clever offerings would go miles.
-Eli
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Depending on your brand of pulp, Zombies, Mummies, Cultists and other things that go bump in the night would be needed. For either scale. Caesar does have a nice undead boxed set, but I'm in more need for mummies not skeletons.
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I really wish I didn't have to buy a bagfull of 15mm figures, just to get the two or three that work as characters. That is what happened with the several bags of OG 15s I bought recently.
Well, between the few 15mm OG and the Brigade Games' 15mm, I have a core group of about 18 figures that could be used in some Darkest Africa or Skull Island adventures.
But there are still a lot of character types missing to really make make this work.
Khurasan is slowly (very slowly) making character figures, but they are really small - just barely taller than most Peter Pig figures:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9593487@N07/sets/72157619334365574/
Anyway, by going smaller on the figures (down to 15mm), the terrain possibilities become enormous, even if your playing area is relatively small. In other words, you don't have to make or buy a huge table, or have a dedicated game room, to have a nice little game.
I hope to start painting mine soon. Once I do, I will make sure to post links to photos for you guys to see.
Thanks.
Dan
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Some of those look quite nice! It's hard to believe they are that small.
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15mm has really come a long way. There is no reason a 15mm fig cannot have a lot of character anymore.
-Eli
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I perfer 28mm cause I like to sit back and see detail easier than would be possible on 15mm, esp as most of the time were looking at them from a 45 degree angle perspective. Space saved is a plus though. Variety is the spice of gaming :)
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Now do tell me if I am being silly, but I've just been running through the various Pendraken ranges. Has anyone considered pulp at 10mm?
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I'm not saying that there isn't a chance this could work, and I don't mean to dishearten anyone. I think it's a wonderful idea. It's just that the reality is that 15mm skirmish scale is simply not practicable economically for the Pulp Genre.
As I said, and I picked some pretty good poses/desirable types to make.
For smaller companies it is really hard to make money back even on 28mm but the proportion of upfront costs (sculpting and molds) per figure is quite a bit higher.
One also needs to realize that the ability to attract customers requires advertising and a working web store, credit card or paypal (both preferably) and the expenses add up quick.
There are better ways to invest your money - like CDOs o_o
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Now do tell me if I am being silly, but I've just been running through the various Pendraken ranges. Has anyone considered pulp at 10mm?
Here we go again.....
:D
Pendraken has been doing some nice stuff, eh? Wow, they have about a hundred packs I realize I now "need".
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So, Lon, does that mean I should give up hope that you will expand your 15mm Pulp Adventurers range?
Dan
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I was checking out the Flames of War line the other day, looking for miniatures suitable for some North African / Egyptian pulp games. To my disappointment, FoW doesn't have much in way of Partisans, or North African Natives or Arabs armed with rifles.
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I find 15mm minis a treat to paint. You can speed paint to good effect and also take the time to add quite a bit of detail aslong as the sculpt is decent. When I speed paint 25-30mm minis, I feel like I short changed the figure and myself. As if they deserve more attention.
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Has this been linked?
http://khurasanminiatures.tripod.com/mystriisland.html
The detail looks good to me, but there aren't mant figs
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Advantage-cost
Disadvantage-28mm has such a nice feel to the figures when you play.
I've used 15mm for large armies and battles but always get drawn back to the larger scale it just looks so impressive.