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Miniatures Adventure => VSF Adventures => Topic started by: Fjodin on April 21, 2010, 11:20:35 AM

Title: Starting project about VSF Confedarates and Union - help with flags!
Post by: Fjodin on April 21, 2010, 11:20:35 AM
I've just recieved an order of ACW minis for wich I want use for GASLIGHT. In my VSF Universe ACW was over in draft. There was no victorios side, because bouth countries was exhaustied. So CSA and US territories was same as at beginig of war.

SO. Sould someone help me with banners and flags of CSA and US at beginig of war. Because I know that they was changing diring the war (new star for each state)

By the way, it this map right?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/US_Secession_map_1865_%28BlankMap_derived%29.PNG/800px-US_Secession_map_1865_%28BlankMap_derived%29.PNG
The Union: blue, yellow (slave);
The Confederacy: brown
*territories in light shades; control of Confederate territories disputed


Here are my Confederate 15mm colonel.

(http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/1251/83660560.jpg)
Title: Re: Starting project about VSF Confedarates and Union - help with flags!
Post by: Fjodin on April 21, 2010, 11:25:10 AM
Also could someone tell me WHAT COLOURS was CSA troops trousers? Grey or blue? The reason I am asking is that different pics from google have different colours. And Why on different pics Confederates wear kepis and on other pics they wear hats?

Sorry but I am noob in ACW :(
Title: Re: Starting project about VSF Confedarates and Union - help with flags!
Post by: chantyam on April 21, 2010, 11:38:43 AM
F I'm no expert on ACW but at the start both sides often went ito battle in colours that you would expect on the "other" side as Millita companies often joined up in the uniforms they were currently using with both blue and grey being popular thus plenty of confusion and "friendly fire" at the start, the supply to the south meant colour varation and use of captured material  added to this, the North being the side more consistent in the supply and replacment of clothing and  material -kepis and hats on both sides again were the norm often to the whims of supply or taste  -CSA grey blue and butternut with variations of all shades.
Title: Re: Starting project about VSF Confedarates and Union - help with flags!
Post by: former user on April 21, 2010, 11:39:27 AM
light blue, grey and butternut
sometimes even dark grey and also dark blue at the start
other colours for Zoave uniforms too

Confederates used to be very irregular in appearance due to constrained logistics
Kepis were regulation, but You could buy more practical hats everywhere
Title: Re: Starting project about VSF Confedarates and Union - help with flags!
Post by: BaronVonJ on April 21, 2010, 11:44:26 AM
In theory, confederates had trouser stripe and kepi bands in the service color. Red for artillery, blue for infantry, and yellow for cavalry. This wasn't always the case in practice. Rebs grabbed whatever they could, but if you're talking really early war, you can throw in even more variation as units could be equipped with whatever was locally available.
-J
Title: Re: Starting project about VSF Confedarates and Union - help with flags!
Post by: Tommy20 on April 21, 2010, 02:59:51 PM
All of the above is good advice.

In regard to the blue trousers on Confederates, they're over-represented (I blame reenactors who wear the same trousers for Union or Confederate portrayals).  Although supply problems could certainly lead to some rebels in captured clothing, and trousers would wear quickly on campaign, the bulk of them should be gray or butternut, depending on your whim.

As for flags, you should be able to find a number of flags for 1st Bull Run (Manassas), which should be representative.  If your ACW stalled after that, those flags would do nicely.
Title: Re: Starting project about VSF Confedarates and Union - help with flags!
Post by: ushistoryprof on April 21, 2010, 04:59:05 PM
As with many wars you had what was regulation and what was reality.  As France was seen as the major army power at the time (1860's) the American uniform was strongly influenced by the French style of the day.  Hence the kepi, Zouave units and the like, some units even went into battle with white Kepi covers that went down to the neck like the Foreign Legion wore (these were so unpopular that the soldiers cut them up to use as bore wipes to clean their rifles).  As the war progressed Union manufacturing produced more and more standard uniforms while the South suffered from less and less supply to the point where many men simply wore clothes  from home or what ever they could pick up, grey and blue dyes became rare and expensive so butternut became the most common "uniform" colour. Soft hats were more popular in the Western armies but were worn in all theaters as they were much better protection from the sun and rain.  Even straw hats were worn by many men in the hotter climates in the Deep South.

Check here for some interesting US Army prints of the era: http://www.history.army.mil/html/artphoto/pripos/pripos.html
and here for lots of uniform information on both armies:
http://www.ushist.com/american_civil-war_uniforms_confederate_cs_f.shtml
this site sells uniforms but they are based on the real regulations of the period.
Title: Re: Starting project about VSF Confedarates and Union - help with flags!
Post by: Fjodin on April 21, 2010, 09:52:22 PM
As for flags, you should be able to find a number of flags for 1st Bull Run (Manassas), which should be representative.  If your ACW stalled after that, those flags would do nicely.

War is not stalled. It was just like real ACW, but  at the end CSA was able to win some last battles ands started to recapture its lost territories. Aster very heavy casualties it was decided to make a truce... for time.
Title: Re: Starting project about VSF Confedarates and Union - help with flags!
Post by: Fjodin on April 21, 2010, 09:56:57 PM
I also found this page in one of the books

(http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/7051/csa1.jpg)

1) original CSA trooper with blue trousers
2) with grey trousers due to material shortage
5) very late trooper
Title: Re: Starting project about VSF Confedarates and Union - help with flags!
Post by: Barry S on April 22, 2010, 02:39:47 AM
I can't add much to what's been covered above but these sites provide pictures of some of the works by Don Troiani. As well as being great resource, they are also a great for inspriration!
http://www.historicalimagebank.com/gallery2/main.php/v/album01/
http://www.historicalartprints.com/

I also like the work of Kieth Rocco and I quite like his recent release:
http://www.keithrocco.com/home.php

Here are some site with information regarding the various flags used by the Confederacy, in no particular order:
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/us%5Ecv.html
http://www.usflag.org/confederate.stars.and.bars.html
http://www.civilwarhome.com/confederateflags.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America
http://www.fact-index.com/f/fl/flags_of_the_confederate_states_of_america.html

Finally, below are couple of links to free downloadable ACW flags for your miniatures. I can't vouce for their authenticity but a great recource which is greatfully appreciated:
http://www.krigsspil.dk/download/download_4.html
http://www.warflag.com
Title: Re: Starting project about VSF Confedarates and Union - help with flags!
Post by: Fjodin on April 22, 2010, 04:31:35 AM
Stupid question. Here are US Berdan Sharpshooter (not my mimi)
(http://www.artistpreservationgroup.com/Gettysburg%20Exhibit/images/Berdansharpshooter.jpg)

Does Confederates have an analog of snipers?


2 Barry S - WOW THANX!
Title: Re: Starting project about VSF Confedarates and Union - help with flags!
Post by: Fjodin on April 22, 2010, 11:47:30 AM
CSA Standart bearer ready. P be tomorrow vy Australia time. US Sharpshooter is on the way :)
Title: Re: Starting project about VSF Confedarates and Union - help with flags!
Post by: Fjodin on April 26, 2010, 05:17:07 AM
(http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/4423/shooterq.jpg)

Here are TERRIBLE MACRO photo of my 15mm US Sharpshooter. My first attempt of making bushes on base.
Title: Re: Starting project about VSF Confedarates and Union - help with flags!
Post by: ushistoryprof on April 26, 2010, 03:15:14 PM
Very nice work, the bushes look great.
Title: Re: Starting project about VSF Confedarates and Union - help with flags!
Post by: Cory on April 26, 2010, 03:48:14 PM
Does Confederates have an analog of snipers?

Almost every regt., North or South, had snipers, called sharpshooters in those days. There were companies that would be organized as the such and such rifles at the beginning of the war, but these were not specifically marksmen units.
Title: Re: Starting project about VSF Confedarates and Union - help with flags!
Post by: Fjodin on April 26, 2010, 10:59:16 PM
Very nice work, the bushes look great.
I'll try to make a beter photo. Sharpshooter is scratchbuild. Beause of similarity of uniform, I've just cutted the bayonet of original infantryman and painted it in green. Saddly I've sprayed to much topcoat so it a little bit shiny :)

Almost every regt., North or South, had snipers, called sharpshooters in those days. There were companies that would be organized as the such and such rifles at the beginning of the war, but these were not specifically marksmen units.
Is there are any uniform for CSA sharpshooters, or they use standart grey colour?
Title: Re: Starting project about VSF Confedarates and Union - help with flags!
Post by: Flockalicious on April 26, 2010, 11:45:37 PM
Is there are any uniform for CSA sharpshooters, or they use standart grey colour?


This should answer your question:
2nd regiment info, including detailed discussion of uniforms (dark green, not blue): http://www.berdansharpshooters.com/art.html
Also some interesting info...a report from Colonel Hiram Berdan who commanded the first and second US sharpshooters:  http://www.gdg.org/Research/OOB/Union/July1-3/hberdan.html

I also did some digging for some misc. trivia.  I had read a while ago about the North arming some sharpshooters with air rifles.  There were standing orders in the South to kill anyone with an air rifle on sight, since they were trained for fieldcraft and were using smokeless and practically noiseless arms, which was thought to be outside of the rules of war.  Can't find anything on it though.

Title: Re: Starting project about VSF Confedarates and Union - help with flags!
Post by: former user on April 27, 2010, 11:53:20 AM
here some interesting WIKI-lies about airguns
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_gun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girandoni_Air_Rifle
http://www.beeman.com/history.htm
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Hiram_Berdan
and a nice picture
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/KunitomoAirGun.jpg/800px-KunitomoAirGun.jpg)
from 1820
Title: Re: Starting project about VSF Confedarates and Union - help with flags!
Post by: Fjodin on April 27, 2010, 11:36:16 PM
Thanx to Flockalicious and former user for links!
Title: Re: Starting project about VSF Confedarates and Union - help with flags!
Post by: former user on April 28, 2010, 03:13:55 PM
And Thank You for leading me to find out interesting things I never knew before

airguns.....
steamguns.....

 :D
Title: Re: Starting project about VSF Confedarates and Union - help with flags!
Post by: Cory on April 28, 2010, 04:41:33 PM
Is there are any uniform for CSA sharpshooters, or they use standart grey colour?

Nope, they will be in the same grey or butternut as the rest of the regiment with nothing but their rifle perhaps (and not always then) to indicate their assigned task.