Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Future Wars => Topic started by: Fjodin on July 18, 2010, 12:55:46 PM
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Do you want a full-hull submarine? Or partially submerged?
Take a look at WTJ's Eylau Sequence:
http://www.wtj.com/store/ (http://www.wtj.com/store/)
Well, although it's not labeled as a "submarine naval" game, at least a few of these miniatures might work as a kind of SciFi submarines. My favourite is the AU6 Ixwa. It looks like a tropical fish.
(http://www.wtj.com/media/eylau/more_info/9011403_ixwa)
Or how about these?
(http://www.rebelpublishing.net/home/shop/uploads/images_versions/368.jpg)
(http://www.rebelpublishing.net/home/shop/uploads/images_versions/367.jpg)
(http://www.rebelpublishing.net/home/shop/uploads/images_products/280.jpg)
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Thanx for replying and links! The best option is full hull sci-fi submarines fighght each other and sea monsters on different landskapes (plan seabed, seabed with mountains, submerged cities), so it will be good if it will be some terrain rules. I know I can try to modify starmada or aerones, but there is nothing about ordinary ships and submerged vessels in there. Maybe when Aquanef will be released, I can create stats for sci-fi subs?
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Have you seen the Schild en Vriend club's of Leuven AquaZone rule set? It's an adaption of the spaceship game Full Thrust.
http://www.nirya.be/snv/AQUAZONE/aquap.html
The bottom of the page has a link to a game of Stingray (Supermarionation...)
http://www.salute.co.uk/salutegames/stingray/graphics/index.htm
If anyone has info on 'Depth Factor', *I* want to know... ;->=
I'm assuming you aren't interested in something 'modern' like subs in Harpoon.
Doug
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Fjodin -
I've often thought of doing this myself. I saw an interesting game at my first Historicon. The guy had submarines and everything in the water on telescoping flight stands, with the "Surface ships" permanently stuck on the top level.
There was another fellow who used to run a regular game at the HMGS-E cons called "Go In And Sink", which was essentially a VSF naval game, including submarine elements. I'm told he did at least one submarine game. Unfortunately, he hasn't run it for a while, and I haven't had luck acquiring a copy of the rules.
There iss a set of rules, done up by a group of guys in Belgium called "Beneath the Waves". Essentially a VSF submarine game. The game is run with the submarines on flight stands, same concept as above. Looks promising, although I recall waiting for them to post a section they'd promised to their website about submarine construction and design, which I'm not sure they ever did.
I still have the files for "Beneath The Waves" on a memory stick somewhere if you're interested, I think.
I'm hoping Aquanef is a little "meatier" with details and rules than Aeronef. Nothing complex, just prefer a slightly more detailed game, when it comes to that sort of thing.
-Alex
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There was a Tirpitz game a couple of years ago featuring the mini sub attacks.
Probably easiest thing to do is email South London Warlords or the Naval Wargames Society.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/barryslemmings/2426086651/
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The_Beast's cursed nimble fingers beat me to my reply! I have played those rules and they are pretty good. We played a game where we had to destroy a huge jellyfish Kaiju (Japanese monster on the size with Godzilla). It was a blast!
I'm still eagerly awaiting the Aquanef rules also.
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Raz and Malebolgia once made a game called SubWars, I've put the document online here:
http://members.multimania.nl/Pil3/Sub_Wars_1.1.doc
There were no miniatures for it, I believe they converted PPP Mech Warrior tanks and infantry and such.
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2 The_Beast
These rules looks interesting :) By the way I like the pics from these sites
(http://www.nirya.be/snv/AQUAZONE/stingray1.jpg)
(http://www.salute.co.uk/salutegames/stingray/pics/over%20view.jpg)
(http://www.salute.co.uk/salutegames/stingray/pics/titanica_model.jpg)
(http://www.salute.co.uk/salutegames/stingray/pics/stingrays%20versus%20terror%20fish.jpg)
2 Doc Twilight
It will be interesting to have a look at Beneath the Waves rules
2 Pil
Thanx for .doc!
By the way is there are any sub minis wich are resembles "Blue submarine #6" and "Submarine Titans" designs?This is possible to convert some starships into sci-fi subs.
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Oh Man!!!!! NOT another whole terrain environment to build!... o_o >:( :o
SteveN
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By the way is there are any sub minis wich are resembles "Blue submarine #6" and "Submarine Titans" designs?This is possible to convert some starships into sci-fi subs.
I'd forgotten about the Stingray game.
Yes there were miniatures available - there was a diecast Stingray vs Titan Terrorfish (made by Corgi ?) a few years ago.
You still find them occasionally in UK charity shops, car boot sales etc, but I guess you'd have to look to ebay.
You only need a couple of Stingrays for the game, but the Titans need to outnumber them 3 or 4-1.
We solved that locally by buying 3 diecasts and then making extra Titans out of Fimo clay. Not as attractive, but better than nothing.
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Oh Man!!!!! NOT another whole terrain environment to build!... o_o >:( :o
SteveN
You'll notice *I* didn't post the piccies; I tried to spare the terrain monkeys, but Fjodin had to draw you in... :D
@Fjodin THANK YOU for this thread! Obviously I love the ideas, and am delighted to see more rulesets I've not heard of before.
Course, speaking of VSF, I had an idea for a Capt. Nemo adventure using old Mage Knight Deep Ones attacking a group of submariners (again some Mage Knight figure, but I forget which golem) as the men approach the underside of a warship upon which the intention is to affix an explosive charge. I thought I'd use an acrylic light defuser panel to be the surface of the water above the head of the players, with a ship hull attached to the underside. Boulders on the bottom, perhaps one side of the table with a carved house insulation slope for caves for the indigenous.
Always thought it could look quite spiffy as game terrain...
Oh, sorry, SteveN. lol
Doug
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Thanks for the info! I think to make a new project................... ;D
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Always interested in submarines and i'd not seen "Sub Wars" before. Got to get around to making some "Manta Subs" out of soap dispenser tops, plasti-card and sprue...
Loking forward to seeing Aquazone too!
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I must say i would love a simple set of sub rules for the far future, i would like it simple, no big charts or hunderds of damage points like full thrust..
With terrrain, monsters and big subs with smaller fighters, i do think it be a fun set of rules, stalking the enemy, pinging to be able to fire etc...
I put my mind to it
Any sub films i can look at..?
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I did start some rules a few years back, just got the basic ideas down on word...
Subs at two speeds - slow and attack, each gave you a distance you can move in inches like most space games, but attack speed was more noisey and so you was a little easier to hit..
Each sub can a stealth rating, which was a D6 number, thhis went up or down depending on your speed and did you fire any weapons in this turn and the depth, shallow, deep or bottom
So the effects of you Stealth rating was your basic stealth + movement - firing and depth.
So even that you could see the subs on the tabletop, you see had to "Ping" it to be allowed to shoot, with torps or lasers etc... so a game of cat and mouse and triyng to get into a firing postion and ping...
Hope thats a nice little read, its a word file and is only rough ideas..
Thanks
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@Soulman
Re: Movies w/ Subs
While you get a few exterior shots, usually of a depth charge going off, mostly it's all folk gathering around a sonar screen. You just don't get to look out much, even a periscope gives you damn little view. That said, my favorite are Enemy Below (Up for an oscar, shut out by Bridge over the River Kwai), Hunt for Red October, Das Boot, Run Silent/Run Deep, Wing Commander...
Oh, my bad; it's just that so many space movies run like sub battles, and that scene where the Kilrathi are bombing the planet looking for the Tiger's Claw... lol
Re: Your description of your rule set
I have to admit, I've bought games that had about as much info. To think, you just gave it away. :D
(Insert comment about someone like me born every minute; Malamute understands...)
If you find/remember more details, they'd be appreciated, though you've actually given enough to take my own stab at it.
Thanks!
@all
Oh, and the Mage Knight fig I was trying to remember WASN'T a golem, it was an Iron Lung. Apparently, I'm hardly the first to think of these as ocean bottom warriors. The tridents with points would be electro-spears, while a couple of IL's would lose the points, and have to carry the litter of an explosive charge to fix to the hull of the warship at dock.
Doug
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Hi beast and thanks for the reply, i`m just about to watch the 4 parts of submarine 6 today and i have blue submarine for another time, i also have all of seaquest, the later parts had more sub combat in them..
I have been writing notes today looking at my old notes and i think i will have a go at writing them out, unlike space combat games which are ten a penny, future sub combat is a big zero...
My only thoughts are Damage, i don`t want it like full thrust with many many hit points, i was thinking 4 hit points max before a sub is sunk, maybe Torps do 1D6 damage, or a fixed number
IE/ Lasers 1 point
Mini torp 1 or 2 points
Torps or mines 3 to 4
And alittle critical damage table
Things like
- 1/2 speed
Weapons not working
Taking on water sink i level
Bridge hit, all hands must escape
And since unlike the many dice rolled in space combat, i think i go from a D6 to A D10
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The other damage system i had in mind and use it for some space combat rules i have made is the following
Two numbers, the first one is taking damage and the second is sub sunk ie /
Big submarine To damage 5+ To sink 8+ Hits 4
So any weapons rolls a D10 and if you damage a sub then you do damage points based on the weapon, but a sub sunk is a lost sub.. so
Lasers D10-1 1 point damage
Torps D10+2 3 points damage
So the large sub can take 4 laser hits in damage or 2 Torp hit or could be sunk on any hit
Also each hit is a roll on the critical table maybe
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I've been thinking about sub games for a while. I think you need to include drones, and/or fake contacts (blinds). The trick could be deploy a number of drones and your sub model(s). But you record on a play sheet which of the models (drone or sub) is actually which. So you have your models on the table for aesthetics, but they might or might not be what they appear to be.
I also think it might be nice to have sub load out as well. In a scenario a sub might have 10 munitions cells and be equipped with a combination of AUVs (decoys and drones) anti ship weapons, anti sub weapons, strategic weapons even anti-air (swat those pesky ASW VTOLs!)
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All these rule ideas sound great. I'd like to see some good anti-sub-warfare tactics available in a game. torpedo decoys, hi-speed turns making a "knuckle" in the water to lure torpedoes, both active and passive sonars, stealth-drives, etc.
Can anyone recommend some good sci-fi sub/undersea books? I liked 20000 Leagues, by Verne, The Undersea Trilogy, by authors Frederik Pohl and Jack Williamson, The Deep Range, by Arthur C. Clarke.
What others am I missing that you guys know about?
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@soulman
Thanks again! Been taking some work-related classes which have left me chatting like heck, but with little thought to add. Will definitely revisit your ideas shortly.
@warrenss2
Frank Herbert's Dragon in the Sea/Under Pressure (had to look up the title(s)) had a weird take on clandestine undersea resource raiding.
Doug
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Hi warren and beast, my mind has been racing and my ideas are down on paper as we speak, i think around 2-3 hours of think time over the last 4-5 days i got me where i`m happy..
Movement system taken from "calls to arms" simple space combet movment rules, mixed with a damage system taken from the "Evo" system from mongoose with my own ideas and its all coming together..
Check list
1. Movement - two speeds and 3 levels of depth - ideas down
2.Submarine stats - ideas down
3.Combat - ideas down
4.Critical hit table - ideas down
5.Sonar - ideas down
6.Weapons stats - ideas down
7.Semi hidden movement - ideas down tonight
8.Decoys / counter measures - think about it in bed tonight
I will at the weekend place these down on a word file and place it in my new yahoo group, so you can read and see if it looks like something that may work.
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Don't forget to add the beasties of the sea.
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Any developments?
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Hello guys and thanks for asking about my rules idea, nice to see some nice people open to new ideas and wanting to know more..
WELL..
I`m have been rushing to paint up my space hulk game which i had on my self since sept last year, and marines nearly painted and aliens next, i`m rushing to get it done so when my friend pops over next week we can play all painted etc..
SO THE SUB RULES..
Since we started this topic, i have watched the following
Blue sub 6
The over one, about the old jap sub..?
Crisom tide
Hunt for the red october.
Now i have seen thos films and looking at the rules i had laid out before them, i see the direction i`m going in and i like what i have done, now all i need to do it type them up and place them in my new yahoo group, which i will place all my other rules idea and projects, i will also place my space combat rules, which is ready to play, just need to design a few ships and weapons and play.. and beat full thrust..!!! and my new gladiator rules i have also started to build., if you give me a few days i can place my sub rules in the group and let you know and you can play around with the ideas and see if they will work
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My only worry was when playing this type of game, its about targeting the enemy sub, with your forward or rear tops and firing and getting a hit, which should kill with one shot, and even that your submarine is on the table, others will be trying to target you to get a lock and fire.
But with space battle rules, its all about loads of dice and lots of hit points, these rules are for my our pleasure, but would space combat players play a deadly sub battle type game.
But having a submarine and not getting killed with s single hit, must be more fun then 100 hitpoint crusiers...?
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From what I understand modern day torps exit their tubes and cruise at 40 knots. They are wire guided from the submarine to the point where they are then "activated". At that point the torp accelerates to about 60 knots, starts to try to acquire a target, the the guide wire is broken. 60 knots is far faster than any sub I know of. The fastest sub in the world in the Russian Alpha class... about 42 knots. If the torp loses the lock on an acquired target, it will circle either to the port or starboard until it reacquires a target (this could be the firer it's self).
For sub speeds I recommend 3 speeds.
Slow - the sub is creeping along super quiet, this speed makes it hardest to be detected while making their passive sonars perform at peak efficiency.
Cruising - this is the normal everyday speed of the sub. You still have a good chance to avoid detection.
Flank Speed - at this speed you have just unzipped your fly! Any ships or subs in the area know you are there. Your props are tearing through the water causing a loud blast of audible bubbles. If your towed sonar array is still out (this helps passive sonar) you are going to cut it up bad.
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Just to let people know i`m working hard for you today to get all my ideas out of my head and pieces of not paper down onto a word file, this will be placed in my Yahoo group for people to read..
Please know i`m not skilled in knowledge on submarine combat or weapons, only what i have seen in films and japenese cartoons, but i want to get the framework down, and then people can see where i`m trying to go and if you think the rules are right, then please help me make them work...
Back to work..!!!
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Well i have done it, 2 hours of computer work and i got my ideas off bits of paper and out of my head and onto the computer and the internet..!!!
Go to my yahoo group at -
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/alanshobbybox/
In my files section you have the following
Submarine combat rules - basic ideas and rules
Space combat rules - sitting on my hardrive for 2 years now, its time to show the world my space combat rules
I must say my space combat rules are my joy, and a shame not in print, i feel it have the flow and feelings of all the space battles you seen on manga or films... Over to you
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Thank you for your great work with the submarine rules, Im very interested with this. ;) but with my poor english is complicated to write more in the post.
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Thanks all for joining, the question now to the open minded sub people, are my rules or rules ideas any good... do they sink or swim ?
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Thanks all for joining, the question now to the open minded sub people, are my rules or rules ideas any good... do they sink or swim ?
I read them and I think they are swimmable. Have you read any works (fictional like Red Storm Rising) or historical (Modern sub books are not too common but probably available) of sub combat? There seems to be a strong WW2 influence (along with some space ship combat) in the first reading of the rules. Re-reading before I make specific comments and expose my "zoomie" ignorance of modern sub combat.
Gracias,
Glenn
P.S. I think "standed" is meant to be "standard" in the rules.
Don't sweat the English issue, your work was readable. Your English is understandable but, LOL, My Spanish is... well, my Tía could have been rich if she had charged me for the "tutoring."
Spell and Grammer check hit mostly spacing issues and possessive "it's" versus "its" and of course (since this is a draft) sentence fragemnts. Not bad for what is probably at least a second language! Good job.
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Quick search came up with these books that had Modern sub elements:
http://us.macmillan.com/crashdive
http://www.subsim.com/books/index.htm
http://www.amazon.com/Submarine-History-Tom-Parrish/dp/0670033138 - maybe
http://aimm.museum/NSL-Submarine-Review-1985-1989.asp -f you can get the sources
http://www.google.com/search?q=book+modern+submarine+combat&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=Nq0&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=b&source=univ&tbs=bks:1&tbo=u&ei=hnlqTLiyDYKB8gbTsaCFBA&sa=X&oi=book_group&ct=title&cad=bottom-3results&resnum=11&ved=0CEEQsAMwCg
Good Luck!
Gracias,
Glenn
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Thanks for reading, yes i do have dyselxia and it was a rush job to type, but i wanted to get my rough rules ideas out for the people screaming for them. and i think i have not added how to hit a submarine, just how to detect one, i think the depth and sound ideas are good without bookkeeping nightmares.
I just wanted to see what people thought before writing them without spelling problems etc...
I do have devilfish a good novel, and have seen blue sub 6 cartoon, which is a good start, the rules are for modern if you wish, but just to start the rules off, i really like to have a sci-fi setting of a flooded world and countys at war under the sea with basics and citys, monsters etc...
Wish i could do 3D, as shapeways will make figures for you.....
It be a week or two before i can work on them again, what i need is playtesters that like playing around with rules etc....
Cheers
Alan
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Dyslexia can be a difficult challenge (and "invisible" to those you interact with.) I have a speech and language challenged teen so I understand to some degree the issue.
I think it's a great start. I may "sub" - pun intended - some space ships (or aeronefs) for submarines and give it a whirl.
Gracias,
Glenn
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A quick Ebay search of "mirco machine submarine" turned up some good subs for your game.
There are also a lot of sea creature toys that would be a fun add on into the game.
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This afternoon I see Leviathan, film based in a miner station under the water.
The film its regular but the idea for scenary its good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7FskSqAQis
Thanks for your post about the submarine wargame. ;)
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Thanks for the understanding of my spelling, i do try and correct it, but my brain is faster the typing, and when it comes to game ideas, its a rush of information- i would love to have some thing published or work for somebody, i done playtesting for mongoose and war rocket etc.
I will check ebay for the miro subs.. thank you
Leviathan, i really liked that film, saw it at the cinema at maple arch a long time ago, these days this sort of film go`s straight to dvd..
You also have deep star six for another underwater monster film...
I do like stuff like that...
I have finsihed reading the devilfish book, great read and most of it i wad reading in the bath - close to underwater..!!!
I have a story for the sub rules, a mix of stuff you seen, just need people to test and sort out the flow and feeling, you never know maybe one day a playtest at salute in london...
If anybody gets a chance to play let me know please,
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Okay, first attempt to post an image from my gallery, (thanks, Prof!), so tongue lash away. How will I learn if you don't kill me?
Wait a minute...
I will try to put this in both VSF and Future Wars, where a discussion on submarine warfare mentioned Stingray terror fish. Which, looking back, was my own fault... ::)
This battery-motorized item is a bit thin, less than five centimeters, and short, but a repaint and some domes over the eyes, and I think it could be quite serviceable. Also, I'm considering trying to grind down the upper lip and teeth. For VSF, you have to add your own rivets.
It's down to about $10US, which makes it worth a look.
For the metric challenged such as myself, this is about 7" long.
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/7/3088_30_08_10_3_51_28.JPG)
Doug
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It would make an interesting "Mega Fish" (Battlship/sub) to supplement a collection of terrorfish.