Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Back of Beyond => Topic started by: VonAkers on August 20, 2010, 08:14:24 AM
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Hi Guys
I was looking for some different Russian Irregular cavalry for my BOB Russian White Army,and I stumbled on to some from Assault Grop.
They are Renaissance Cossacks but could be used for BOB,I think with a few mods ..
Has anyone seem the lead and how do they compare to Copplestones ( the horses seem a bit off)
Cheers
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They are Renaissance Cossacks...
I painted these
(http://www.theassaultgroup.co.uk/cms/uploads/Cossacks.jpg)
(Image from the TAG site so if it doesn't show here - go and take a look in the gallery, under "Orctrader.")
Good figures. A tad smaller than Copplestone, but horses as well as people come in different sizes. ;)
The bases are 25mm x 50mm so that should give you a guide.
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Incidentally, VonAkers, before setting up Copplestone Castings, Mark Copplestone sculpted a range of cossacks for Foundry (18th century/Napoleonic). Usefully, he did foot and mounted versions of the same figures.
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I can't even begin to imagine what you think these might resemble in the Russian White armies. They are Ukrainian Cossacks, and some of them might do business as 1918 Ukrainian Nationalists (with weapon modifications) but little else.
When you say "irregular" cavalry, what do you have in mind?
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Hi Orc Trader
Mate thanks for the reply and pictures.
They do look great.
Apart from the pistols they could easily be Irregular Cossacks,from that period.
Cheers
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Hi Orc Trader
Mate thanks for the reply and pictures.
They do look great.
Apart from the pistols they could easily be Irregular Cossacks,from that period.
Cheers
I would second Steve F the Foundry ones are very nice too
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Hi Mark
Mate Lighten up.
I cant see where they say "'Ukrainian Cossacks" only..
Admittedly I dont know of any specific uniform requirements that restrict ,certian types to one area, and no other.
And unless you did your PHD in Russian Cossack Uniforms In the RCW,you dont either.
I am fairly certain that not all Cossacks in the RCW or BOB were all Regulars.
I am going to field some as Irregular Local cossacks/mounted Partizans /local allied Bandits/White Refugees.
In the CLA lists White Armies may have some Irregular cavalry.
To my mind I do find the typical Cossack Cavalry to have ( to my taste) a much too regular look, I want some more colour and panashe.
I read someone said once "It's a great period if you want games of movement and sweeping actions, with crap troops in colourful uniforms"
I happen to agree with that bloke 100%,I also Agree with him about not having too much armour. :)
Cheers
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Thinking about "alternatives" West Wind do some in their...Vampire Wars range - I think. "Evil Cossacks." I have some and they are good too. None painted though.
IIRC you get one mounted and one foot figure in each pack - but there were no pictures on the WW site. (Got mine in a CMON shop sale - glad I did.)
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I cant see where they say "'Ukrainian Cossacks" only..
And unless you did your PHD in Russian Cossack Uniforms In the RCW,you dont either.
Russian Cossack uniforms are, as it happens, an area of particular interest.
http://www.pygmywars.com/barendspages/barendmain.html
For Russians to dress this way would be like for the Welsh to start wearing tartan kilts. It is a particularly Ukrainian style of dress (although long abandoned by 1917, a few Ukrainian units revived it briefly).
The figures aren't labelled as such because in the early periods the Cossacks only came from the Ukraine. (You don't need to label Samauri as "Japanese Samauri, either.)
I am fairly certain that not all Cossacks in the RCW or BOB were all Regulars.
Well, that depends on your definition of "regular", I suppose. Some were partisan behind the lines in the RCW. But then they wouldn't be fighting alongside regulars.
The Cossacks were very proud of their status as part of the regular Tsarist army, and they continued to dress as such for the duration of the fighting. This was relatively easy, as they wore their host uniform in peacetime, so had it immediately on deciding to form a unit. Even if they had wanted to fight in fancy dress, where would they get it from?
In general terms it is not useful to distinguish "regular" from "irregular" Cossacks. They dressed the same and fought the same.
To my mind I do find the typical Cossack Cavalry to have ( to my taste) a much too regular look, I want some more colour and panashe.
I read someone said once "It's a great period if you want games of movement and sweeping actions, with crap troops in colourful uniforms"
Quote mining will get your nowhere ;) . I have always been one for historical plausibility (as opposed to strict accuracy). I've never understood making stuff up, and then pretending it is real.
If you want this look, why not paint an Asiatic unit? Kazakhs or Kirghiz or Mongol. They all fought alongside the Whites in Siberia.
Or Annenkov's black hussars (which were Cossack): http://militera.lib.ru/h/kakurin_vatsetis/31.jpg
You can field colourful uniforms without resorting to something 300 years out of date! It's like rolling out a Boer War unit in red shirts and topees in WWII because you find your British uniforms a bit dull. I'm not kidding - the anachronism is that great.
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For Russians to dress this way would be like for the Welsh to start wearing tartan kilts.
Well, they should be fine then as the Welsh do wear kilts.
Presenting the St. David's Welsh National tartan Kilt.
(http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii318/twrchtrwyth/Cymru/StDavidsWelshNationaltartanpolyesterKilt.jpg)
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I'd use them for BOB bandits or irregulars no problem,regulars probably not.Tunic,pants ,fur hat yep Russians.
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Hi Mark
Thanks for the info on the regular status of most of the Cossacks I didnt realise that.
Didnt realise you were the author of that Pygmy Wars thing, I already have used that as ispiration for my Markov Officer Regiment .
I think you are still missing the main point a bit here .
I Still want a more Irregular Look for the Irregular Cavalry units in my Army,along the bandit line /partizan /local militia theme.
I agree with what fitter pete says in his post.
So If you have a answer to the oringinal question great if not...
Also dont be so precious and dramatic about the uniform differences ,are you an actor perchance?? lol
We once had someone once throw a similar comment about that uniform not being correct in 1815 for a Waterloo Game,for that unit blah blah blah.
He proudly pointed this out and strutted away ,and never once saw or commented on, the 2500 figures worth $40000 ,or the 18 x 6 Table with wonderfull terrain with 6 guys happy as pigs in the proverbial..... :'(
Please post up some pictures of your figures so I can be inspired and historically Plausibleas possible .
Cheers
Ps Better still please send me some info if you can on the other units cavalry types you mentioned.( Asiatic unit? Kazakhs or Kirghiz or Mongol)
Thanks in advance.
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I have no issues with silly units. I fielded pink "mouseketeers" with Mickey Mouse flag in a Seven Years War campaign once.
I just get very scratchy when people suggest that there is some historical basis for the silliness, rather than just accepting that it is silly from the get-go.
I find it particularly hard when it goes with a sort of deliberate blindness to the era in question. Where anything goes because everyone east of the Oder is just a furry hatted wog really.
Tunic,pants ,fur hat yep Russians.
:'(
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I'm still digging on the Asiatics: it's quite hard to find reliable information. I hope to put some of it on PygmyWars, but it won't be soon.
I know the more western of the Asiatic nationalities (Bashkirs, Tartars and Kalmyks) fought in standard Russian dress, for the most part, when they could get it. But even then they wore some traditional hats and jackets, especially in winter.
The only one unit that did definitely dress in traditional garb were the Turkmen: plate G2 in the Osprey Russian Army 1914-1917 (they had been Kornilov's bodyguard for a while). They fought with the Whites in Transcaspia (Kazakhstan) in the RCW.
Information on the more eastern: Kirghiz, Kazakhs and Mongols is harder to get. I know that the Urals Host recruited a few Kazakhs, although they never sent them against the Reds. It can be hard to distinguish the other groups (Kirghiz, Tajiks etc) because the Russians tended to lump them all together.
Semenov had a decent number of Mongols though, and they are your best option as a BoB gamer. They wore normal Mongolian clothes. Actually, many still do.
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Personally I would have thought painting the Copplestone Cossacks alone would provide colour aplenty. Blue breeches, with various host stripes, coloured pogoni, bashlyk edging and for the Caucasian types, a variety of colours for their cherkeskas, even more for the beshmets and metal decoration for the bullet holders. Easy enough to provide variety within a unit and quite a bit of colour without going over the top.
I purchased a mixed bag of RCW figures some years ago and the seller included a group of the Foundry Cossacks. Most remain unused. Nice figures but largely unsuited to the RCW. Looking at the TAG group above, I'd be tempted to use the first, third and fifth figures from the left with weapons changes but really only as Ukrainians or maybe Makhnovite guerillas.
I'm with Mark on this one but of course people are free to buy whatever toys appeal and paint them as they choose.
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Here very interesting uniforms of soldiers from a division of ataman Annenkov.
This form really rushed also these military units really took part in fights with Red in Siberia and Central Asia.
And imaginations are completely not necessary:
(http://kolchakiya.narod.ru/uniformology/general_themes/Annenkov_units_16.jpg)
http://kolchakiya.narod.ru/uniformology/Annenkov_units.htm
Look the information on this Russian site:
http://papercraft.mybb.ru/viewforum.php?id=2
This site is devoted paper soldiers. But there are many interesting photos and the information on Red and to White armies.
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Great links! Thanks!
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The thing is it doesn't matter who is "with" who on this the OP just wanted to know how they compare.I think he mean't sizewise.
I"m kind of surprised by the "Napoleonic Board" type responses on the BOB forum anyway.I know, I know historical plausibilties blah,blah,blah.These guys might end up fighting anything from some silly-named German spy backed by Turkish bandits to a Chineses warlord(also with a silly name) allied with British regulars from India.
Sorry I made you :'(.They are figures for a wargame not plates for a histroical book, get over it.
Pete
PS Carlos if you don't want those Foundry Cossocks. send them to me lol
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Guys
Gee ...I just wanted some variation in my units , I was not going to paint them pink with yellow caps . lol
Pete is right sounds like the Nap forum ..heaven forbid, "hmm stovepipe shakos were already phased out for that unit 3 months for Waterloo".... lol
I want to use them in games that are exactly as Pete described.
Carlos I have to disagree with you on this .
I love the Copplestone castings cavalry but if they have a fault it is that they are a bit samey IMHO.
That is why I was looking for some alternatives miniatures, & positive feeback ,not castigation and hysteria .. lets .burn the witch....burn the witch lol lol
Cheers
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Don't see any evidence of 'burn the witch' here myself. Shrill cries of persecution seem to be the stock in trade of many internet forums, one rather hopes this phenomena will not become a hallmark of this one too.
Mark has probably done as much as anyone else to expand the base of information in English for people gaming the RCW and his views on BoB are well known. His Pygmy Wars site is an invaluable source and I respect his views. As I said your toys your choices but for God's sake don't play the fucking martyr.
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Please calm down everyone. Let's just say they are completely unfitting for anything historical, but look great for a pulpish approach.
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Hi Guys
Cant beleive this thread..
Carlos I have got more lol's on my last post than verbs.... ,I was hardly saying Im bring persecuted.
As for being a "Fucking martyr " not sure about that .. is that a bit like being a tool ??....
Any way Im over this ...Please no more posts on this thread that dont help or answer the question.
I am still looking for appropriate figures that would suit Iregulars for BOB White armies let me know.
Cheers
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Yes, my apologies, I was in a particularly bad humour myself when I penned that.
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This site is truly full of real gentlemen (and women).On any other forum I have belonged to this would have went on for 3 pages of silly flame wars.I love the LAF!
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:)
To answer the question, i've got assault group moderns by the same sculptor (SWATs, miitias), they are a bit smaller than Copplestone, but the heads are bigger. I wouldn't mix them in a unit, but they might work in an army.
i thought many times to use the Foundry renaissance cossacs as a base for conversions for Makhnovites.
Being Copplestone sculpts they'll fit style-wise, but Foundry historicals are smaller, slimmer than Copplestone Castings. Only the first BoB releases, like the commissars would blend with them in proportion. The bolshevik heroines and russian partizans are huge in comparison with other copplestone-foundry figs I have.