Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Interwar => Topic started by: Wirelizard on October 06, 2010, 10:28:21 AM
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So, I burned some birthday money on a batch of Copplestone's Back of Beyond Brits.
Now I need to figure out how to paint them; they'll be the first actual historical figures I've ever done in unit sizes. (eek!)
The only hobby paints I can get locally are Reaper & GW, so which Reaper (Master Series) paints are closest to the khaki used in British interwar tropical uniforms? (if there's a Master Series Triad set up for this, even better!)
While we're on the subject, can someone suggest a painting guide? Osprey, other books or online, whichever. Obviously "mostly khaki everywhere" but it's the "mostly" part I need a hand with!
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So, I burned some birthday money on a batch of Copplestone's Back of Beyond Brits.
Now I need to figure out how to paint them; they'll be the first actual historical figures I've ever done in unit sizes. (eek!)
The only hobby paints I can get locally are Reaper & GW, so which Reaper (Master Series) paints are closest to the khaki used in British interwar tropical uniforms? (if there's a Master Series Triad set up for this, even better!)
While we're on the subject, can someone suggest a painting guide? Osprey, other books or online, whichever. Obviously "mostly khaki everywhere" but it's the "mostly" part I need a hand with!
I basecoat of Reaper Griffon Tan, wash with Vallejo Air Burnt Umber and flow release, touch up with Griffon tan, 1st hilite of Reaper MS Tusk Ivory and a 2nd hilite of Reaper MS Linen White. The result stands up pretty well to an authentic Wolseley I have on the hat shelf.
(http://leadadventureforum.com/images/lpl/s04/r03/27_Hammers_Palestine_NWF_Heavy_Metal.jpg)
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What's IW, please?
And another question: Should the uniform and helmet be the same shade? I ask because i don't know, I've been painting a few Pulp Figures tropical brits, and I deliberately painted the helmets a lighter shade (closer to bone, bot still khaki), as I supposed they are/were covered in a different fabric (my inner eye picture of pith helmets is always showing a pale colour), but I'm not really sure.
As to which colours to use:
As khaki was originally the name of the fabric, and not the dye, I'm not sure you can say that a particular shade is the correct one - dye, wear, sunlight bleach all influence the current colour of the fabric.
That said, I don't think you can get good results with GW colours for this, unless you are willing to mix some new colours yourself. Otherwise my only suggestion would be to try Kommando Khaki with some of the brown washes to see the effect.
I don't have any experience with Reaper paints, I use mainly Vallejo combined with Black Hat and GW for khaki - Foundry Base Sand triad (mith intermixes for better blending) for lighter shades (haven't tried Foundrys khaki, yet..).
Not much help, I'm affraid...
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Its that grey shirt that everyone paints blue that does muy 'ed in :D
I'd go for any Khaki shade they all seem to be a much of a muchness to moi
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What's IW, please?
Iron Wind Enterprise, they bought Ral Partha's paint range some time ago. It's a small range of paints in comparison to todays standards but they have a few pots which I've like to a degree where they are almost indispensable. Excellent browns and metals.
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And another question: Should the uniform and helmet be the same shade?
This has been discussed a few times and if you are going for realism it is a mote question since uniforms fade and items get replaced one item at a time (most often). You'd have to be very much a fresh recruit or in mess order to have a set of combat soldiers in uniform uniform, both between themselves and by themselves.
That said, I paint my batches of miniatures in uniform colours because it keeps the troop looking homogeneous and good on the table. I aim to keep the same formula between batches (with the help of a painting log) but because of the above I am not too anal about it and could very well let the formula change slightly.
Also, to answer your specific question: my extensive sources indicate that turbans, pith helmets and caps all seem , as a rule, to be of the same colour as the rest of the uniform.
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Thanks for the feedback and info, everyone, especially Hammers.
So the shirts were greyish-blue, but not too blue :D while everything else was some shade of khaki, more or less, dye lots, sun, laundry, time in service, dust and other variables allowing?
I'm going to check the FLGS's Reaper rack in a few days, then if they fall through do a mail order thru Brigade or direct to Reaper. I've been meaning to upgrade my selection of tan/brownish/khaki/ivory shades anyway. Sure, you can mix, but premixed is far easier for batch painting!
Next question, while I'm picking the assembled brains of LAF - any resources out there on tactical organization (Battalion/Company level or lower) around for the interwar period? I'm perfectly willing to fudge it for the needs of scenarios/demands of the game/etc, but some vague idea of what actual practice was would be kind of nice, and is very hard to find on the web.
Update to add: Iron Wind Metals paints appear to have vanished. Only empty bottles on the IWM website... I have a few of the original Ral Partha paints (flesh tones, mostly) from years ago, and they're very nice. IWM didn't keep most of the Partha range, and now it looks like they've all vanished. RIP.
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Thanks for the feedback and info, everyone, especially Hammers.
So the shirts were greyish-blue, but not too blue :D while everything else was some shade of khaki, more or less, dye lots, sun, laundry, time in service, dust and other variables allowing?
As Plynkes have pointed out elsewhere, they were faded grey, not blue at all. The bluish grey used by many is a result of some illustrated guides depicting them as slightly blueish in colour, perhaps because it is easier to render grey that way in colour illustrations.
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Thanks for the feedback and info, everyone, especially Hammers.
So the shirts were greyish-blue, but not too blue :D while everything else was some shade of khaki, more or less, dye lots, sun, laundry, time in service, dust and other variables allowing?
I'm going to check the FLGS's Reaper rack in a few days, then if they fall through do a mail order thru Brigade or direct to Reaper. I've been meaning to upgrade my selection of tan/brownish/khaki/ivory shades anyway. Sure, you can mix, but premixed is far easier for batch painting!
Next question, while I'm picking the assembled brains of LAF - any resources out there on tactical organization (Battalion/Company level or lower) around for the interwar period? I'm perfectly willing to fudge it for the needs of scenarios/demands of the game/etc, but some vague idea of what actual practice was would be kind of nice, and is very hard to find on the web.
Update to add: Iron Wind Metals paints appear to have vanished. Only empty bottles on the IWM website... I have a few of the original Ral Partha paints (flesh tones, mostly) from years ago, and they're very nice. IWM didn't keep most of the Partha range, and now it looks like they've all vanished. RIP.
IW is gone? That's a pity. I've had my pots for ages so I haven't had to replenish for a while. Anyway, I have told a black lie: the Hawkwood paint is Reapers old formula. It is a sort of pale yellow ochre in colour.
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Next question, while I'm picking the assembled brains of LAF - any resources out there on tactical organization (Battalion/Company level or lower) around for the interwar period? I'm perfectly willing to fudge it for the needs of scenarios/demands of the game/etc, but some vague idea of what actual practice was would be kind of nice, and is very hard to find on the web.
IF you are looking to the Indian Army organization I can check my litterature.
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So the shirts were greyish-blue, but not too blue
Not necessarily if talking inter-war, depends on the time frame. The 1930s saw the introduction of an Aertex khaki-coloured shirt that replaced the greyback. This was a collared shirt with breast pockets.
It's what the Pulp Figures Tommies are wearing (though their webbing gear puts them at the very end of the 30s/into the 40s).
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/Plynkes/pbt2.jpg)
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Not necessarily if talking inter-war, depends on the time frame. The 1930s saw the introduction of an Aertex khaki-coloured shirt that replaced the greyback. This was a collared shirt with breast pockets.
It's what the Pulp Figures Tommies are wearing (though their webbing gear puts them at the very end of the 30s/into the 40s).
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/Plynkes/pbt2.jpg)
Oh! that's just not fair, like those a lot and wanted to use them for my back of beyond late 1920's stuff,
you will be telling me my Americans in Montana hats was late thirties next ;)
dodge
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Don't worry, Dodger. I won't grass you up to the History Police. :)
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Don't worry, Dodger. I won't grass you up to the History Police. :)
Oh no! it is true damn,
good job I don't care about historical accuracy,
I am so relieved that you won't me into trouble with them, they be nasty ::)
dodger :D
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Next question, while I'm picking the assembled brains of LAF - any resources out there on tactical organization (Battalion/Company level or lower) around for the interwar period? I'm perfectly willing to fudge it for the needs of scenarios/demands of the game/etc, but some vague idea of what actual practice was would be kind of nice, and is very hard to find on the web.
I'd have to divert you to the Edward VIII board at the Gentleman's Wargames Parlour (http://gwargamesp.18.forumer.com), which although is VBCW based has a lot of info about the real army between the wars too. In essence the basic WW1 organisation remained, but in a reduced form.
For example, an infantry platoon still consisted of four sections (two of which had a Lewis gun), but was quite reduced in manpower, so there might be only be six or eight men in a section. There was also an officer shortage, which led to the creation of the 'Platoon Sergeant-Major' to replace missing subalterns in at least two of the three platoons in a company. Another difference was that the Vickers guns were returned to individual battalions, with a platoon of four weapons (sometimes fewer) to each battalion.
Britain's army suffered from a number of cutbacks after World War 1 and what funds there were went largely to the RAF. The army began to recover slightly in the mid-thirties, but the real changes came from 1938 onwards. Britain was confident that it would be ready to fight a European War by 1942!
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I'd have to divert you to the Edward VIII board at the Gentleman's Wargames Parlour (http://gwargamesp.18.forumer.com), which although is VBCW based has a lot of info about the real army between the wars too. In essence the basic WW1 organisation remained, but in a reduced form.
For example, an infantry platoon still consisted of four sections (two of which had a Lewis gun), but was quite reduced in manpower, so there might be only be six or eight men in a section. There was also an officer shortage, which led to the creation of the 'Platoon Sergeant-Major' to replace missing subalterns in at least two of the three platoons in a company. Another difference was that the Vickers guns were returned to individual battalions, with a platoon of four weapons (sometimes fewer) to each battalion.
So a platoon was 24-36 men with two Lewis guns and probably a Platoon S-M in charge; the company was three platoons with a Captain (or possibly just an Lt, given that officer shortage?) in charge?
I had a rummage around the GWP site, found the Nafziger OOB link (http://www.cgsc.edu/carl/nafziger.htm)... and there's not a thing in that huge collection from 1919 to about 1938 that isn't from the Spanish Civil War. Huge year-by-year breakdowns of British/Indian/Imperial forces... that all end around 1900! Interwar obviously wasn't one of Mr. Nafziger's areas of interest. Pity! (Much of that is much higher-level stuff than I want, anyway, although I did see a lot of company-level WW2 stuff in the index.)
Thanks for the info, Jim, and the reminder of GWP's existance. I have an account there, but scarcely post.
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It's a common problem, if there isn't a big juicy war involved, there usually isn't much information around. I get the sense that most people think that the army went to sleep in 1918 and woke up in 1939 to find they'd been reorganised and re-equipped. :?
A full strength platoon would be 48 men, plus PSM or Lt. (who would also have been allocated a batman), but anywhere between 24 and that figure would have been about right. I'm pretty sure that overseas units in India were kept up to strength by drafting men from home service units, particularly where another battalion of the same regiment existed. As a rule of thumb, take the organisation of a WW1 Battalion (http://www.1914-1918.net/whatbatt.htm) and try and fill it out with the men available to a 1940 BEF Battalion (http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/British/Infantry/british_infantry_battalion%201939%20to%201940.htm) and you won't be far off the mark. There was also some experimentation with infantry tactics and low level organisation being done in some units, so a three section platoon, with the Lewis Guns in one section etc, might be a novelty to try out.
Somewhere on the E8 room there's an article on the mechanisation of the cavalry between the wars. It's well worth a read and quite an eye-opener. While VBCW has its knockers, there has been a fair bit of info unearthed about the British between the wars that would have remained obscure without it.
If you can get hold of it (I got mine from 'Works' for a couple of quid) 'Against All Odds: The British Army of 1939-40' from the National Army Museum, is well worth it. Although primarily about its subject, there is a fair bit of information about the army before the 1937 reforms that doesn't become apparent at first glance. I appreciate it might be a tad hard to get hold of in Canada, to say the least, but you never know!
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I'd suggest either: M.S. Olive Shadow 09220, M.S. Olive Skin 09221, M.S. Olive Highlight 09222 or M.S. Golden Shadow 9091, M.S. Golden Skin 9092, M.S. Golden Highlight 9093. They are both supposed to be flesh palettes, but they don't look really "fleshy"...much better suited to tans or khaki.
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Just as a months-delayed followup, I've done some British tropical uniforms finally, with (I think) excellent results, with the following paints (all Reaper Master Series unless otherwise stated)
Khaki:
Base of Yellow Ivory.
GW Devlan Mud wash, considerably thinned.
Highlight of Creamy Ivory.
2nd highlight of Linen White.
Pugarees (cloth sun helmet wrapping) got a lot more Lenin White.
Grey Shirts:
Straight grey was too dull, so I added a shot of the forbidden, ahistorical (but much more interesting looking) blue.
Snow Shadow & Stone Grey, roughly 1:2 ratio.
Highlight with Stone Grey with a drop of white in it.
Canvas Webbing:
Stained Ivory.
Highlight with Yellow Ivory.
Leather Webbing & Gear:
Blackened Brown
FW Burnt Umber ink wash. (artist's burnt umber ink, lovely stuff. Makes for great leatherwork)
The rankers are all in greyback, as are some of the officers, with the rest in khaki shirts. Webbing is mostly canvas, as I gather from Osprey's books that the British went back to canvas webbing post-WW1.
Photos shortly!
Also, anyone want to buy 14 unpainted Copplestone Tropical Brits (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=24572.0)? Bought them, they're lovely but freaking massive next to Pulp Figures, Artizan and Brigade, so trying to flip them to buy more of Brigade's WW1 Brits instead! Somebody out there who already has a force of Copplestone Brits can surely find a home for these chaps?