Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Back of Beyond => Topic started by: Ataman on January 22, 2011, 09:26:20 PM
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As a budding RCW enthusiast that hopes to start an army soon, I'm curious to see what rules you chaps find to be the best for 28mm. From what I've read, most people seem to lean towards Contemptible Little Armies (and Back of Beyond), a modified Red Actions, or another rules set who's name escapes me (Triumph of something or other).
I've also seen many people recommend the Great War by Warhammer Historical. As a WH40k player myself (with a Kornilov-style Imperial Guard army), this has probably peaked my interest the most.
To clarify, I'm very much leaning towards 28mm. I love painting, and I find the smaller scales to be less enjoyable simply because there isn't enough detail. I'd also prefer a rules set more leaning towards skirmish battles (less than 80 models per side) because I am, unfortunately, not the sort who can throw money around.
Thank you!
EDIT: Somewhat off-topic, but I have a query about Brigade Games. Do their Russian infantry in fur caps have shoulderboards or not? The image is very poor quality, and I'd like to know whether or not they're usable for Whites/Cossacks.
Here's the link (http://www.brigadegames.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=BGAHSL&Product_Code=BG-SIER005&Category_Code=BGHMSIE)
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This is most of the competitors:
http://www.pygmywars.com/gaming/rules/rules.html
Great War will be very easy to pick up as a 40K player, and will make getting games easier. But there is not yet any support, so you have no army lists or even guides to values.
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EDIT: Somewhat off-topic, but I have a query about Brigade Games. Do their Russian infantry in fur caps have shoulderboards or not? The image is very poor quality, and I'd like to know whether or not they're usable for Whites/Cossacks.
I have a pack of the Brigade "Russian riflemen with fur hats" in front of me, freshly arrived from Brigade. They appear to have shoulderboards.
Good thing, as I was planning on using them as White Russians with a Cossack flavour!
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This is most of the competitors:
http://www.pygmywars.com/gaming/rules/rules.html
Great War will be very easy to pick up as a 40K player, and will make getting games easier. But there is not yet any support, so you have no army lists or even guides to values.
Thank you that link is excellent! I've read your site extensively and yet I never found that page.
I have a pack of the Brigade "Russian riflemen with fur hats" in front of me, freshly arrived from Brigade. They appear to have shoulderboards.
Good thing, as I was planning on using them as White Russians with a Cossack flavour!
Great, that's good news for both of us then. I'm planning on making a mixed force of pro-Hetmanate Ukrainians and Don Cossacks.
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Those who use the rules of "Red Actions!" from a group of developers "The Perfect Captain", perhaps it will be interesting to get acquainted with the options of these rules, which revised and supplemented by Russian wargamers.
Naturally, they are in Russian, but the translator of "Google" you are here to help.
"Steel thunderstorms":
http://www.fieldofbattle.ru/modules.php?name=Pages&pa=showpage&pid=105
Rules "Red Actions!", Significantly modified and changed Alex Razygraev, In accordance with his ideas about this conflict.
"There, behind-the Don River ..."
http://www.fieldofbattle.ru/modules.php?name=Pages&pa=showpage&pid=106
These are the rules on campaigning on the rules of Red Actions / Steel thunderstorms. These rules are heavily modified and pererabotynnym translation rules for the campaign from The Perfect Captain "Beyond the Don River".
I think, though, like other Russian players, the game was balanced and interesting.
And the last photo the White Army, presented at the Russian forum "battlefield". This conversion is well-known figures from the "Copplesone Miniatures".
First Kornilov Shock Regiment, the author of "trommell_of_war":
(http://pics.livejournal.com/trommell_of_war/pic/0005qwsx)
1 officer's company, 2 and 3 Volunteer Kornilov Company:
(http://pics.livejournal.com/trommell_of_war/pic/0005k6wc)
General L. Kornilov, an artillery battery and machine-gun company:
(http://pics.livejournal.com/trommell_of_war/pic/0005pwy7)
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I use Triumph and Tragedy for RCW. Easy to learn and fast in play. Not the simple IGUG-Game, because you use cards.
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(http://pics.livejournal.com/trommell_of_war/pic/0005qwsx)
1 officer's company, 2 and 3 Volunteer Kornilov Company:
(http://pics.livejournal.com/trommell_of_war/pic/0005k6wc)
General L. Kornilov, an artillery battery and machine-gun company:
(http://pics.livejournal.com/trommell_of_war/pic/0005pwy7)
Now those are some amazing Kornilovtsi! Though I think that many 'colourful' uniforms seems more appropriate for Gallipoli then for actual battle.
Thank you for your recommendation, I'll be sure to check them tomorrow.
I use Triumph and Tragedy for RCW. Easy to learn and fast in play. Not the simple IGUG-Game, because you use cards.
Well, I got the 'Triumph' part of the name right at least :)
I was under the impression that only Red Actions used cards, so I'm curious to see how this set uses them. Thanks for the recommendation!
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Red Actions uses cards to keep track of unit qualities. Movement is alternate units from each side, so not really I-Go-You-Go and easily modified to work off cards.
From your point of view is intended to be for larger battles than you appear to want. It uses companies as the basic unit.
I would guess Triumph and Tragedy would be more suited to the platoon/skirmish you appear to be looking for.
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My own skrirmish rules "Argad!" adaptations for this period are under test, but not ready enough for diffusion yet. :-I
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I use Triumph and Tragedy for RCW. Easy to learn and fast in play. Not the simple IGUG-Game, because you use cards.
I have to concur we ran a 5 regiment card T&T game at BLAM 2010 and it was a great game fast paced and full of action,
I think we had 30 - 40 minis per side armoured cars hmg's it was great.
dodge
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Triumph and Tragedy is the baby of this very forum, so you have come to the right place to rectify your ignorance of it. :)
Triumph and Tragedy website: >>Link<< (http://www.triumph-tragedy.de/index.html)
LAF T&T forum: >>Link<< (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?board=25.0)
The authors are members here, and I'm sure would be happy to explain the card system to you. I'd be happy to explain it too, it's just that I'm too lazy. For now I'll just say it is used to decide who goes when, using quite a fun mechanic that adds to the gameplay in a fun way by giving you more decisions to make. :)
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Too Fat Lardies Mud & Blood or the Perfect Captain's Red actions.
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Mud & Blood works really well for me. You might also want to contact Count Ignatieff of the LAF and ask hiim for a copy of his rules. I've not had a chance to use them yet, but they look perfect for 28mm skirmish
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Always one to be different I use the WWII rules from Niel Thomas' "Wargaming - An Introduction" book with inches replacing cm for all measurements - it works really well. Had a couple of cracking games over the weekend with these.
At the end of the day any WWI/WWII set of rules will work with some modification
vT
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Maybe consider also my book WaW: Back of Beyond! 8)
(http://www.adpublishing.de/assets/images/500_BoB_Cover.jpg)
see: http://www.adpublishing.de/html/back_of_beyond.html (http://www.adpublishing.de/html/back_of_beyond.html)
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...or I can send you The League of Extraordinary Kriegspielers in house rules, "Setting the East Ablaze" which are free. Best for BoB, but are flexible enough to include more formal additions of your choice, a choice I have to say, you are spoiled for!
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At the end of the day any WWI/WWII set of rules will work with some modification.
I cannot agree here. Yes the basic mechanisms work, but the specific rules are often quite wrong:
1) Few WWII rules have anything remotely resembling the correct rules for cavalry. Even WWI ones can be wrong for RCW (Great War Warhammer, if memory serves, will not allow cavalry that press home a charge anything like the correct chance of winning the resulting melee.)
2) Many WWI/WWII rules assume infantry will go to ground under artillery, but will otherwise barely be touched. In fact they should generally either press on (slowly) or break.
3) WWI rules tend not to go down badly enough in morale classes, but get the firepower OK. WWII rules assume way too much firepower out of an ordinary unit, but do have the requisite green units.
etc
If you are going to play with WWII rules, why not just play WWII?
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I cannot agree here. Yes the basic mechanisms work, but the specific rules are often quite wrong:
1) Few WWII rules have anything remotely resembling the correct rules for cavalry. Even WWI ones can be wrong for RCW (Great War Warhammer, if memory serves, will not allow cavalry that press home a charge anything like the correct chance of winning the resulting melee.)
2) Many WWI/WWII rules assume infantry will go to ground under artillery, but will otherwise barely be touched. In fact they should generally either press on (slowly) or break.
3) WWI rules tend not to go down badly enough in morale classes, but get the firepower OK. WWII rules assume way too much firepower out of an ordinary unit, but do have the requisite green units.
etc
If you are going to play with WWII rules, why not just play WWII?
Good points all
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I cannot agree here. Yes the basic mechanisms work, but the specific rules are often quite wrong
True. That's why I said they can work with modification - which is easy enough.
At the end of the day the rules are just a way to move our toy soldiers around the tabletop and in my view it's up to the players to act in character for the period rather than being straight-jacketed by the rules which allow/forbid certain actions thus forcing the "period flavour".
vT
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At the end of the day the rules are just a way to move our toy soldiers around the tabletop and in my view it's up to the players to act in character for the period rather than being straight-jacketed by the rules which allow/forbid certain actions thus forcing the "period flavour".
In general I think it is much too tricky to remove some of the unperiod flavour from rules.
You see it a lot when people suggest amending say Flames of War for Russian Civil War. They mean well, but in general they really don't understand just how different the wars were. Almost invariably too they are newcomers to the period, so don't quite have a handle on the differences. The result is far too likely to be WWII or WWI played with RCW figures.
They know cavalry should be better, so they make a simple adjustment to boost the values of cavalry. But cavalry in the RCW wasn't better. It was that infantry was worse and cavalry fought in a totally different manner. That is a much harder adjustment to make.
I know this because when I was starting with RCW I tried adjusting FOW to fit. I couldn't make it work, even though the basic morale assumption of the rules (that target morale determines firepower results) is perfect. By the time I had finished it was no longer by FOW, defeating the whole purpose of taking them in the first place.
I accept that I am a purist about such matters, but the better a set of rules is at representing its own period the worse they will be about representing other periods. What makes it good - the period flavour - is exactly what makes it bad at other things. If anything you are much better taking generic period rules (Principles of War or Contemptible Armies) and tightening them up.
If people in the RCW didn't do something (fire MGs indirectly) then why should rules permit it? They had the ability to do it, and if you use WWI rules they will be able to do it. But they didn't do it. How does someone new to the period know to not use that portion of the rules?
If you just want rules to "move toy soldiers around" why bother with periods at all? If you are just going to play WWI with RCW figures, why not move your toy soldiers around in a WWI game?
Period specific rules are not a "straight-jacket". What an odd concept!
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Use Agis' Back of Beyond rules :D
They have a great "BoB flavour", are quite balanced and are elegant enough to make big games with several players enjoyable. Faction-specific army lists and "larger than life characters" are a great plus too.
We had a lot of games in Berlin with these rules for our campaign and no one seemed to miss T&T ;)
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Hi Mark,
nothing wrong with being a purist - I guess we're just coming at the same problem from opposite directions. While you would prefer the rules to enforce period behaviour I prefer the rules to be broader but that the players are better informed and so play "in period" as a matter of course.
For example as you said no indirect MG fire - whereas you would prefer the rules to ban it I would rely on the players to know it wasn't used and so refrain from using it in the game.
I do accept that in a group which are all newcomers to a period my preference would cause anomalies of troop behaviour - but hopefully as they become better read they would realise the errors and play more in period.
Neither of us is right and similarly neither is wrong, which is the great thing about this hobby of ours - enjoy it the way you want.
what ever set of rules you use - happy gaming
vT
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I have to agree with Mark on the "flavor" thing - rules that cover too broad a period lose the ability to deal with that which makes each period special. If you're not interested in the flavor of what made the RCW a unique conflict, why not put Martians vs Romans on the table? The era of linear warfare using firearms stretched several centuries but the flavor of the Marlburian vs Napoleonic vs American Civil War periods were very different.
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I suspect Luthaaren that I could probably play RCW with you using WWI rules. I played my friend quite happily using Great War because he thinks like you.
My dislike is tempered by the experience of dealing with players who are basically WWII at heart thinking that all you need are a few tweaks and you can play RCW. Their style of play is quite removed from what we see here at LAF: they will do anything not forbidden by the rules. And suggestions that you can play games with deliberately unequal armies are met with blank stares.
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I'm certain we could Mark.
I've encountered the "well it doesn't say that I can't do that in the rules" problem as well as the horror at not having equal forces reaction too. I think that all stems from competion and "pick up" style games where everything is "equal" and the rules are used as written regardless of anomolies which crop up.
That's why I prefer not to play in local clubs and only against regular opponents who I can trust to play in period or, mostly it has to be said, solo.
vT
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Use Agis' Back of Beyond rules :D
They have a great "BoB flavour", are quite balanced and are elegant enough to make big games with several players enjoyable. Faction-specific army lists and "larger than life characters" are a great plus too.
We had a lot of games in Berlin with these rules for our campaign and no one seemed to miss T&T ;)
LOL, thanks! 8)