Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Future Wars => Topic started by: FalloutLeader on July 09, 2011, 02:04:32 AM
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Allright guys without trying to get political although i'm sure it will be if there was a ACW of today and no i dont believe it would be North and South or East against West what would todays factions be like.I'm sure it would be Red States vs Blue States i can think of alot of reasons of today of why it would start,what is your thoughts.I have been thinking of doing some games on this would like some helpful thoughts.Ideas
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I think a split along religious lines would work as a milieu. Fundamentalist zealots, sort of a christian Taliban, seeking to impose their own bizarre world view on everyone else, versus a secular democratic alliance. Some states would be completely subsumed by one side or the other, providing bases for organisation and supply. In others there might be guerrilla groups of one side or the other working against an insecure rule (skirmish games), in still others the split might be even enough either for regular warfare (battle games) or a brittle, hostile detente (intrigue games).
This situation would allow for regular and irregular troops on either side (though I suspect that the religious nutters would pretty much have a monopoly on fanatical cadres), and the causes of war are irrational enough that you don't have to worry too much creating a rational back-story.
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I honestly don't see it being (at least at the moment) Red vs blue. lol
Any one else think its funny that Republicans are red now? Anyways at lest from what I have seen in the news and from livening and traveling all over this great land, it would most likely be Religious nut job, or far right survivalists, and I honestly see it as a small bands or terrorists (patriots) cells, fighting against the FED and contractors. As opposed to tanks and Regaments.
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Corporates... Nike v Reebok, Coca Cola v Pepsi, Microsoft v Apple, CBS v ABC, and all the factions which might be borne of that.
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A new variant on the post apocalyptic campaign: Social Apocalypse. The government finally shuts down and the corporations step in and take control. Sounds like the beginning of a story I started some time ago:
The world has changed, but not for the better. Most of the government is ultimately controlled by the corporations. The corporations are corrupt at the most basic level, concerned only with their bottom line, and have few, if any, scruples or morals. The military is the one segment of the government that has any sort of separation from the corporations, but the corporations design the weapons and systems the soldiers use on the battlefield, so the military still must show some deference to the corporations. The cities, while ostensibly run by the mayors or city councils, also have a number of crime syndicates running things in the streets and in the shadows.
The reality is that for most people, someone else defines their reality. If they work for a corporation, the corporation tells them where they live, where they work, and ultimately, where they are buried. If they work for the government, they have a promise of a minimal pay, minimal pension, and a government grave. If they work in the streets, the crime syndicates control them utterly, leading to little more than a short, miserable life. That’s the reality for most people.
But for a few with the will to fight, the skill to win, and the soul that refuses to be dominated, there’s the path that flows between the street and the corporate soul, the way past the bureaucracy and the syndicates. Those few with the desire to define their own path will ultimately follow the path of the Edgerunner. Edgerunners have skills and abilities that set them apart from the rest of society. Some start working for the Corporations or the government, but their abilities push them to a different life.
Within the cities and the corporate districts, the Corporations enforce their own laws. If you work for the Corporation in question, you can move about relatively freely. The corporations make certain that their workers get decent housing, commensurate with their position within the company, can shop at corporate stores, and receive excellent medical benefits…provided they are within their corporate district. Outside of that district, you’re on your own. Between districts is where the disputed zones, commonly called d-zones, are located. Areas that are between two districts are effectively lawless until some corporation swoops in to take control of the area. But this kind of clean up is expensive and many times, not worth the Corporation’s time and effort to do so. This is where the lowest of the low end up: dealing drugs, prostitution, and a whole host of other unsavory ways of just trying to survive. But every so often, rumors will circulate of a corporate op squad that was slain to a man while in one of these disputed zones. Usually, this is attributed to an encounter with another, better-prepared corporate op squad that was in the area first. But there are some situations where the deaths can’t be explained away so easily…
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Timberlake vs Spears?
Sheen vs Caruso?
No scratch the last, we all know that the revolution will NOT be televised.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkKCb7uElcs
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Kind of thinking of Fed Socialist Gov passing laws with strict control ,and different factions as in your liberal nutjobs,local government as in police and fire departments on different sides,states being swayed one way and some states split within thereselves.Some factions could be racially motivated like Black Panthers,Skinheads,KKK,Mexican Mafia and such,Mexican Cartels attacking the US along with there army,US militia units,lot of ideas to play with.
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Hip hop ghetto/inner-city drug dealer gangs, white supremists, Mexican drug cartels, Christian fundamentalist zelots, anti-federalist militias (armed arm of the tea party), pot smoking liberals, state gov'ts trying to keep it together (CA especially) or seceed or fight against Mexico trying to get back land, etc.....
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I could see political parties being the basis for much of the animosity, particluarly with media influence. However neither policial party is truly an all encompassing doctrine. The "big tent" of each party includes some diverse groups that might not stay together if their lives are on the line.
I don't see either race or religion being the absolute dividing line. Factions would form around each of those, especially in certain regions, but would not be able to hold large forces together.
The branches of the military and perhaps a few large police forces would tend to have a monopoly on power.
Rural food producers would have some clout, until the larger military forces pushed the issue.
Now as an alternative, the triggering event could make a big difference. If the triggering event was a pandemic, with a significant population loss, that would play out differently then a large natural disaster that destroys a lot of infrastructure. Or the triggering event could be a hotly contested election, with a lot of voter fraud by an organization named for a seed, followed by a president refusing to relinquish power.
In terms of civilians the left will be better organized and the right better armed.
Actually we could all work it out if we could have a beauty contest, with the judges not knowing who the contestants represent. We could have Ms. NRA, Ms. Democrat, Ms. Greenpeace, Ms. Libertarian, Ms. NBC, Ms. ACLU, etc. Each faction enters a beauty, winner gets bragging rights and we all go home and have a beer!
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In my little universe the American Civil War 2 is kicked of sometime after WW3 ends, with the economic power houses of China, India, Japan being utterly devastated by the war and the big primary industry states like Russia also being decimated or just logistically impossible to reach anymore. Thus outside trade the U.S is fairly reliant on shuts down, and the Govt goes bankrupt and can no longer help home industries.
The American Government still holds the New England states and has a small if not still pretty high tech U.S army defending it, bolstered by militias and Weekend warrior types.
The Southern states become Governed by various gangs (turns into a real wild west show) with pockets of law men reinforced by militias keeping order in various towns, but being hard pressed by Cartels, hostile communities etc trying to eek out a living.
Texas decides to go its own way and forms a small army but is pretty much wedged between the chaos enveloping its fellow neighbours and Drug gangs that have split mexico into a number of warring states.
The Mid West turns into a frontier with roaming gangs pretty much like the South, with some Government outposts.
-I sort of went Sci Fi here, because I decided that after much of the Mid West becomes desert due to global warming, the place becomes even harsher and gangs of 'wild men' start to appear who are savage cannibal types, strange beings (aliens) start to turn up raiding fortified towns, and at a secret U.S military plant due to not being maintained releases an outbreak of a deadly virus (the virus the Yanks use to eventually defeat its PLA rivals) mutates and begins to have dramatic zombie like effects on those it infects.
The Western states are a mixed bag with Washington state and its neighbours effectively becoming a sort of Extreme Religious/Fascist Alliance of states (a confused mess of stuff thats not very welcoming) whilst the states south of them are cut between a liberal and not so liberal agenda, but the peace is kept in check by the U.S army presence... almost.
Hawaii becomes independent. Alaska just does what Alaska does and appreciates the snow.
But mostly I left it to few large factions, but mostly gangs with different agendas and a Government attempting to hold things together (with politics getting in the way)
I also added some foriegn contributors too. Britain I decided goes through its own civil war during WW3 knocking the state out of the war (though its armed forces are sent to Scandinavia in preparation before the upheaval and end up stuck) but by the time ACW 2 kicks of its formed a new alliance with Eire and Canada and has rebuilt itself slowly thus sends a mixed force to fight for the U.S Govt and secure the Canadian border from raiders.
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... Alaska just does what Alaska does and appreciates the snow.
lol
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Corporates... Nike v Reebok, Coca Cola v Pepsi, Microsoft v Apple, CBS v ABC, and all the factions which might be borne of that.
NOW I would play that game! The PC warriors vs. the Mac defenders. lol Probably I would use Nuclear Renaissance because it would work perfectly for a future American Civil War.
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Or you could base it on the old video game shattered union, or the TV show "Jericho"
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rather interesting read there brummie, thanks for sharing
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What about the underclass/ghetto dwellers uprising against the rich middle class...maybe the survivalists get to a point where their territories are being lessened due to population expansion and they fight to keep their individual way of life...maybe scientologists get together and try to start a new civilisation...drug wars!...an uprising from the wastes of New Orleans due to the lack of help they received...
It doesn't take much to cause a civil uprising and if there is enough sympathy, an uprising can quickly turn to civil war.
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Bump
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Looking at it from 'outside', i would agree with inso: MONEY.
America was built on the principle of hard work & wealth, with the hard work part being optional for some people...
Looking at the fury and hatred caused by a pan-american public health program from over here, it only seemed to be about one thing, money.
Not individual lives, healthcare or social welfare...
So you could use whatever triggers, or factions, corporate wars or whatever, but the root cause would always stay the same....
It was in 1861, and im sure it would be the same today, the politics may have moved on (?), and physical slavery has just become financial and social slavery (?)
All you are missing is a new-age Lincon....
Perhaps that is the trigger point in history you are missing...
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Alternatively, the NRA rise up against the government as a result of the up-swell of anti-gun lobbying after yet another mass shooting at a school (especially poignant with the recent tragedy at a primary school... bless them all :( ). The anti NRA retaliate with force (ironically with the very weapons they seek to restrict).
This is entirely plausible when there are major players who say things like "you will prise me rifle from my cold, dead hands" (or words to that effect).
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Isn't there already civil war in the US!?
I think this will fast become a very politically loaded subject matter.
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I'd say Socialist/Progressive vs. Traditional America. Large welfare states (ie CA) vs. retaliative self-sufficient states (ie TX) bustin' heads on the cash moving from one state's coffers to other states who can't get their shit together via the centralized Fed. American hard work and self-sufficient proponents vs. the gimme, gimme, Nanny State mobs.
But that's just a simple Libertarian Texan's view of what I'd throw down for,
Brian
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Bump
Seems a bit funny 'bumping' a thread thats over a year and half old only to say 'bump'.
But to make sure I don't fall foul of the same sin - Red vs Blue states makes perfect sense, but then again from a European perspective they're both to the right of the political spectrum, so it ends up being rightwing or further rightwing, which isn't much of a choice to get up in arms about, until there ends up being so real socialists in the US.
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For what it's worth, here is the start of my fluff for a PA game:
"On January 25, just days after his inauguration, an explosion tears through a meeting room at Camp David, where the President was meeting with leaders of Occupy movements and Tea Party activists. Although to this day no one knows who was responsible, left and right are quick to blame the other. The next year would see civil war throughout the country, with armed gangs from both sides seeking revenge for grievances both real and imagined. Farmers hoard their crops, and refuse to take them to markets. In many places the National Guard is called out to force farmers to market, but many guardsmen turn and fight against their comrades. That winter, people in the cities, cut off from their food supplies, starve."
Then there's a bunch of stuff about nukes and zombies and natural disasters ... :D
--Scott
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To wargame this, I'd go with a modified and AK-47 Republic with modern army lists. Which is perfect, because the lighthearted approach would help to alleviate any serious political discussions.
After all, wWho says that the Civil War would be limited to just two factions? Say the Feds over-reach and multiple blocs of states simultaneously launch Second American Revolutions. You could easily have the wealthy United Oil States in the southwest, the People's Democratic Socialist Republic in the northeast, the Free Plains States, and the Kingdom of California led by a cult of personality figure, plus numerous religious extremist movements of all stripes, small enclaves, and even professional mercenary armies loaned out by the surviving three superpower states (Iceland, Brazil, and the Neo-Ottoman Empire.)
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and the Kingdom of California led by a cult of personality figure
I imagine Arnie being a prime candidate for this!
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Have a look at the Ucas in shadowrun roleplay game maybe use some of the ideas presented their for the states and styles of the different factions.to help(drop the magic)
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Isn't there already civil war in the US!?
I think this will fast become a very politically loaded subject matter.
Several comments (opinions at best) have already been made that would ignite a war on another three letter forum - and quite rightly, IMO.
There simply is no way to approach this subject without controversy and provocative posting eventually popping up. Would have been the same about England or France when they were superpower nations had there been computer forums then.
Gracias,
Glenn
who now resume ignoring the thread because there seems to be no point in engaging in "conversation" when such widely divergent viewpoints based on incompatible world views exist on such a topic
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Not sure the trigger exists as well. That said, the split would likely be between the coasts and "flyover" states.
The "flyover" states (with the notable exception of Illinois-blame that on upstate BTW) generally balance their budgets and pay their debts. Typically they have better armed citizenry.
The coasts need the connection between NY/Boston/Washington and California...and the money between to feed their eternal (and ultimately unpayable) debt. "Flyover" country just wants to be left alone (pretty much like they wish today)...and have ports in the South accessing the Atlantic.
The Military would likely be controlled by the coasts but populated largely by Southerners and those from "flyover" country. Armed citizenry vs Military (largely composed of soldiers opposed to their own kindred).
Not sure where the outside money/weapons might come from. Mexico is just a hindrance....and broke but I could see Texas taking portions of Mexico for access to the Pacific. China - not sure they have a real interest in who wins. My guess is that whoever is temporarily winning will find funds/resources flowing to the losing side from all over the world.
Add to that, given that the US doesn't manufacture as much these days most of the actual manufacturing is taking place in "flyover" country.
Should be interesting but I will admit I would be rooting for the "flyover" states.
Still, should be great fun.
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The comic DMZ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMZ_(comics)) (which is great, by the way) deals with the subject of a second American civil war. From the Wikipedia synopsis:
The conflict concerns two primary forces: the federal government of the United States of America and the "Free States" armies. In issue #2, it is explained that the Free States are less a geographical entity than "an idea", and that the movement began with an uprising of secessionist groups that formed a separate government in Montana before spreading across the country.
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Alternatively, the NRA rise up against the government as a result of the up-swell of anti-gun lobbying after yet another mass shooting at a school (especially poignant with the recent tragedy at a primary school... bless them all :( ). The anti NRA retaliate with force (ironically with the very weapons they seek to restrict).
This is entirely plausible when there are major players who say things like "you will prise me rifle from my cold, dead hands" (or words to that effect).
I don't think the NRA is anything like a paramilitary militia/rebellion nor could it easily become the foundation for one. It's mainly a lobbying group. Most of the people with guns in the US are not looking to fight anybody. They'd hide them under the floor boards and bury them in the yard and claim they were lost rather than join some violent underground.
I think what could cause the most trouble in terms of chaos would be drug wars that got so far out of hand that the police weren't able to respond to it well, such as is happening in Mexico. (And happened in the US during prohibition times).
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Yeah the NRA is a lobby group. I don't know any one who is ready to take a bullet for them lol
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Yeah the NRA is a lobby group. I don't know any one who is ready to take a bullet for them lol
Well there was one guy.......
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Bahahahahaha! But he is already dead.
And I guess I had also forgot about Ted Nugget to. lol
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You know this whole thing would be a damn sight cooler set in the early 'seventies. You get the Panthers who are immensely cool and Copplestone, handily, does a range of useful figures. You get to crank up the MC5 on the stereo and play Mad Like Eldridge Cleaver or just play Gil Scott Hermon's The Revolution Will Not be Televised, over and over.
The there's the Weather Underground, Patty Hearst and the SLA, much cooler cars, etc Blaxploitation riffs, etc to draw on.
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Agreed, revolutionary's back then had some class and style. Would also allow me to use my Vietnam era troops in the USA.
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You know this whole thing would be a damn sight cooler set in the early 'seventies.
That would also help remind everyone not to take the whole thing too seriously. Anyone up for Ken Kesey's Mercenary Pranksters? Travelling around inside a convoy of specially converted armored personnel carriers complete with psychedelic paint jobs. Their specialty, naturally enough, would be chemical warfare of the psychotropic kind, if you catch my meaning.
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Several comments (opinions at best) have already been made that would ignite a war on another three letter forum - and quite rightly, IMO.
And the guy who argues to nuke the thread early on to keep the war from happening would get banned from that forum.
::)
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And talking about revolutions or civil war in the 70s I give you.
http://winterof79.blogspot.com/
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And the guy who argues to nuke the thread early on to keep the war from happening would get banned from that forum.
::)
That rather depends on the political leanings of the poster and whether the owner of the site in question has his magic g-string riding up his crack on that particular day. Tis a funny place. Of course if you wanted immunity over there, change your posting name to Jimmy Savile. ;)
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If these don't convince to go 1970s.....
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Then maybe this will....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XhQRFO4M7A
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I don't think putting it back 20-30 years ago would make it any less serious mind (at least the subject matter). The social issues facing the U.S today are only evolved issues it was faced with back then. And in some cases not enough water has gone under the bridge for some folks. Its like wargaming WW2, still a lot of people who remember it/affected by it, and it has to be one of the most horrendous wars in modern human history, but we still game it.
At the end of the day we're only using these actual facts as a foundation to extend and create a story/backdrop, doesn't mean its going to happen.
Its really all about personal opinion/perspective. But I think picking and choosing reduces people to double-standards. Its perfectly fine to just not treat it seriously given the circumstances, treat it as a story that gives your wargames some extra spice and play a few games.
No ones going to get offended at a bloke playing in his cellar with some beers and a few mates with toy soldiers, with a backstory that has some real world facts brought in. If they did, we'd be have been screwed for playing games based around WW2 and Post WW2 wars.
I personally think now that U.S Civil War would probably have numerous mini factions, but the overall conflict would be between a Neo-Confederate-Traditional U.S-Corporate styled faction (lots of money but not many troops) V.S a sort of 'Middle Class' movement, perhaps backed by some local authorities/businesses or Foreign powers (Iran/Cuba lol) and perhaps a Third party like a U.S Government and what Loyal Military/Community assets remain trying to restore.
Maybe it would then progress to have independent states trying to avoid the conflict, Mexican drug lords, mercenaries etc.
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Or maybe just giant corporate-cult that splits int two factions Anaheim and Orlando and struggles for the American heartland. :D
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I'm actually not convinced a new Civil War with clear sides could happen at this point. I think what you end up seeing is Rodney King riots at a larger level so that major urban centers become no-go areas and with outskirt municipalities trying to cut off outside access to defend what they have. Fed and state govt initiallly try to maintain or regain control. Food/water riots ensue. More rural areas are generally not affected, at least initially. But I don't see any real organized threat to the Fed Gov't attempting an actual revolution/regime change. You may have bands of insurgent types, but no real state let alone national organization to them, and most will be better organized criminal gangs out to get what they can vice establish autonomous territories (they won't have any real desire to govern/provide gov't type services).
Just my take. Frankly I hope and pray we don't go down that path. I've been places where the gov't has collapsed and it would deeply sadden me to see it happen here.
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Indeed.
America's a tricky place to set anything based on ideology. The last time they had anything approaching a left-right divide in their national politics, at least in terms that the rest of us would identify as such, was probably 1972 and Nixon won in a landslide. :(
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i agree with pretty much ever thing you just said Scurv.
If any thing did happen, it would most likely be, small groups engaging in what can best be described as terrorist acts, for some most likely imaged slight.
And it would most likely be Fed, (ATF, FBI, NSA) against what ever Terrorist flavor of the week. And even though there are some folks treating to break from the US, while I really don't give any of them any credence. It would take a total collapse of the system on a national level to have any thing approaching a real civil war.
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I'm afraid my idea of going camping is much more in the 'tossing two sleeping bags and a cheap dome tent into the back of the old Chevy pickup that needs lead additive to run' vein. I have taken my hyundai camping once but I like the shocks on the old pickup better as they don't channel all the bumps right up my butt, just some of the bigger ones. And I suspect local emissions laws will force me to get rid of the pick-up sooner rather than later.
We do have riots unfortunately. Not monthly or anything. Usually they begin as political protests. Wisconsin and Minnesota seem to be having them at the capitol buildings most recently. I think the Zimmerman/Martin shooting case may have been close to generating a riot but I don't live in Florida and national and local news accounts do not always agree. I know that world trade organization meetings tend to be very rough on the cities that host them.
In Texas Bastrop county had a HUGE wild fire this summer that wiped out most of the local pine forests (which are very uncommon except in that one area) and the still-standing but shredding scorched dead trees give a fairly post apocalyptic impression whenever I drive down highway 290 towards Elgin and pass through Bastrop.
I don't think a full civil war is possible apart from a collapse of local authority and utilities. I could see some states attempting nullification of federal laws they don't like and crowds pushing and shoving each other a little. Mostly because we've seen a little of that over the last few years.
But we could have some terrorist action here and there as people decide to mail each other bombs, or burn stuff down, or snipe strangers on the highway or kidnap someone for ransom. And like I said in a previous post the cartels are moving into the US with what looks like impunity for the moment and they have almost paralyzed Mexican law enforcement (or so the news tells me).
A lot of people are mad and a few are ranting rather irresponsibly on both sides, but I don't think anybody much wants to shoot or be shot at. A lot of people are afraid of having their home attacked so they are buying weapons. Whether they are afraid of a police state or of unrest or just not being able to buy weapons later there is some tension in the air. But it doesn't feel historical. The atmosphere here reminds me of when I was a kid in the 70's only with the internet added in. 'Malaise' I think it was called. Worried , feeling a bit helpless in the face of the economy, and a little angry but not really explosive.
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"And it would most likely be Fed, (ATF, FBI, NSA) against what ever Terrorist flavor of the week."
They'd be involved but it would probably be police(municipal), or sheriffs deputies(county), and state troopers (and their FBI-analog, the investigative arm, which in Texas is called the Texas Rangers. ) doing most of the on the ground stuff. Terrorism can be local though it would probably ultimately be viewed more like gang or organized crime activity because most of the serious types who are good at that sort of thing do it for profit and usually that's through extortion, hijacking, or drug sales.
If the law enforcement institutions got weak then the criminals who were organized would get stronger. I think that's mostly the problem that we face. And if they got strong enough and the law could not challenge them you'd see well equipped militias and self defense gangs arising to take care of the problem and the clashes would be fairly bloody. Much like what's been happening in Mexico.
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Is that really what you call camping? :o
Taking on some hiking boots, a rucksack with everything you need and leaving the car well alone is more what I call camping.
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The reality is that you can not have a proper Civil War in the US right now. You could have a revolution or a massed uprising - but the military now would almost inevitably be on one side. The small exception being an occasional state guard unit which would turn.
So, whatever side has the majority of the military would win in an instant in a proper engagement. I do see a secession scenario being very realistic. Look at the nonsensical crap going on right now. One of the ONLY legitimate subjects which could produce a serious clash of force would be gun legislation. It's pretty easy to just exaggerate current events to get your background.
The only group of people who'd be capable of legitimate resistance though would be southerners, armed to the teeth. Proper hunters who are very capable outdoorsmen. While perhaps only armed with shotguns or hunting rifles, they could put up some serious resistance. Your average wannabe-tough-guy gang bangers would be shot/killed/arrested/subdued very quickly. For fantastical wargaming purposes though you could go a little more "nuts" in your scenarios.
Serious economic collapse, followed by emergency cuts in military spending, leaving abandoned national guard armories filled with dilapidated equipment, and stores of old weapons and ammo. Most military functions/police functions replaced by private contractor companies (consisting more of cheap hired thugs, than proper law enforcement trained folks). Cities like Detroit being all but abandoned by normal people and police - turning into havens of mayhem, etc. Depends on how crazy you feel like going with your scenarios.
Perhaps the situation gets so bad, that Arizona, New Mexico, parts of Texas are taken over by Mexico/Drug Cartels (they're essentially one in the same). Canada shuts off their border, and the immigration problem is reversed - Americans desperate to get into Canada, etc. Corporate headquarters moved off shore, or even onto large Cruise Ships (bought for cheap when the Cruise lines went bankrupt). They've become safer being at sea than stateside etc. Lots of cool ideas.
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Is that really what you call camping? :o
Taking on some hiking boots, a rucksack with everything you need and leaving the car well alone is more what I call camping.
If I wanted to camp in the Austin metropolitan and the police were okay with that it might work. But generally I like to get to the campsite or at least in the same park/area/preserve as the campsite before I camp. It keeps me out of jail.
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Oh Jesus Scurv, don't tell you've seen that fucking awful film with Marty Sheen and that Irish bloke from Cold Feet and now feel compelled to do the Camino de Santiago? Tell me ain't so. lol
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I could see it as being a Dark Knight Rises scenario, poor vs Rich. Makes sense in this economy and what not. Anybody that hates America for one reason or another would be throwing guns at them just to see everyone tear it all down.
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Yeah the NRA is a lobby group. I don't know any one who is ready to take a bullet for them lol
The Suffragettes started out as a lobby group... and they changed the world for women's rights.
I know there are an awful lot of people in the US who have their assault rifles, artillery pieces, rocket launchers; all for 'home defence' and they would be very upset at having to hand them all in after paying so much for them. There are the survivalists who live 'out of town' and there are the far right who would jump on any bandwagon for a bit of a bruise up.
All it takes is a little momentum and you will have minority groups from all around flocking to the cause... after all, the right to bear arms is in the law...
I wouldn't cast it off so quickly. As a spark, the NRA uprising has the hallmarks for a good future scenario for a civil war... if not full blown then at least mass civil uprising.
Alternatively, we could have the vast Chinese-American population all convert to communism and join forces with China to overthrow the capitalist Americans. With so much integration, there would be insiders in all facets of life from the power grid to the senate and from waste disposal to the arms manufacturers and military. I specifically chose China and communism because of America's historical hatred of communism and the fact that China is quickly becoming a dominant world power.
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I think that a lot of the NRA or similar types when it comes down to it are too individualistic and spread out for a 'mass' uprising (which implies some level of corrdination/leadership and joint activity).
As for camping... Having spent more than 30 days at a time living outdoors and not even seeing the inside of a tent, doing so more than once, in jungle, desert and temperate terrain in all kinds of weather, my current idea of camping is the daughter and Son2 setting up the dome tent down by our pond, I help with roasting marshmallows and hot dogs on the fire we build, then walking back up to the house to sleep in my big ol' California King sized bed while they sleep in the tent...
:D
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Someone commented on my "Bump" but it worked. The conversation certainly picked up fast.
My thoughts are the Democratic vs. Republican split is how the country is currently split. The animosity between those two parties is greater then anything I remember or have read about since the original civil war. That said the D vs R split is not on state lines, as almost every state was a fairly narrow split between Romney and Obama. You can't tell a D from an R just from appearance. Dispite what some in the media think, either can wear a suit or jeans, be white or black, male or female, middle class, rich or poor etc. If it every came to a fight (g-d forbid) the R faction would be better armed and so long as social media worked, the D faction would be better organized.
For most Americans the only lasting political marking are the bumper stickers on the back of their vehicles.
The remark about the military being from the flay over sttes is very true. Even from within a state like California, there are counties and rural communities that are very Rm and produce lots of both hunters and soldiers. If push came to shove, and there was an order to fire upon other americans, especially say a Tea party rally, I could see a military comander either not giving the order to fire or many of his men refusing to obey. Many would actually desert, perhaps retaining their unit organization.
I don't think a terrorist act nor a natural disaster would be a triggering event. Those events tend to cause Americans to pull together. I could see a large scale political rally get out of hand. Say an Occupy type rally clashes with a Tea Party type rally, with the media blowing it out of proportion....
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Even with the uncivility going on in American politics, that malaise and uncertain fear of the future that we saw in the 30's and 70's isn't with us right now. It could be though, it wouldn't be one big thing but many small things that resurect that feeling and could do so in a short time.
However one postulates it though, I find myself just wanting some 28mm squads of irregulars all wearing the Guy Fawkes masks the occupy movement is so taken with.
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The comic DMZ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMZ_(comics)) (which is great, by the way) deals with the subject of a second American civil war. From the Wikipedia synopsis:
Exactly what I was thinking! Love that comic.
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I think Leadfool is pretty much dead on about this. You cant just look at it as red state versus blue state because many of them are a mixed bag. Plus if you just took the very simplistic view of it, "red" would win in a landslide because there the ones with most of the firepower and training ( veterans, hunters ect) so you cant base it on that. America is ridiculously complex and yes i think the military would just either get out of the way becuz they have no desire to fire on fellow americans or many would desert to join a side. Again a fact that would favor the "red" since the vast majority of military personnel are conservatives. The only way to make it fair and this could theoretically happen is the leftist government calls in the United nations for help ie, foreign troops though that opens a whole other bag! Ugh i hate politics in gaming!!!! :-[
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John D Law, I too modern hate politics in Gaming. Too many ways to piss off your gaming buddies.
That is the appeal of the VBCW and the ACW2. It is harder to get emotionally involved with the politics of the thirties. Well at least outside of places that start with the letter I.
Although the idea of a U.N. supported national police force, lead by a government that dramatically cut the military fighting a midwestern militia has some potential....but no!
I will stick to my ACW2 or VACW as some call it. Nationalists, vs Communists vs Constitutionalists. Much safer politics for my gaming group. Then we can be swayed by such important things as uniform colors and tank models. Our arguments should be about really important things like 1:56 vs 1:48 and which rule set to use.
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Well if this were to come to the tabletop you could likely keep it as general as Murdochians versus Anonymians. Basically those pro-establishment financial powers backing the structure in play versus the dissatisfied anti-establishment rebs!
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Girls with tramp stamps vs girls with navel rings. :-*
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Girls with tramp stamps vs girls with navel rings. :-*
Or White Trash vs Ghetto baby mamas, Next on Springer.
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(http://reason.com/assets/mc/_external/2012_11/jesusland-vs-united-states-of.gif)
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lol
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Hahahahaa!
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LOL! just wandering around the thread and saw the pic. lol
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There are even flags!
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Flag_of_The_United_States_of_Canada.gif)
(http://www.goddiscussion.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Christian-US-Flag.jpg)
Naturally, the religious fundamentalists of Jesusland adopt the same approach to scientific thought as the Texas school board, and within a generation they are burning people at the stake for suggesting the Earth revolves around the sun. Meanwhile the conservative 'war on women' kicks in to overdrive, and the female population is swiftly reduced to the status of property of their male relatives. Indeed, soon only white male landholders are eligible to be citizens.
And for reasons no one is entirely sure of, all their soldiers start wearing night vision goggles with glowing red lenses.
(http://www.scenicreflections.com/files/killzone_2_-_Helghast_whit_flag_Wallpaper_xq7bk.jpg)
(The Handmaids Tale is the ur source here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Handmaid's_Tale , in the same way that the Richard III movie is for the VBCW)
(This cartoon from 2008 gives some idea for units:-
(http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/martin_rowson/2004/11/01/election512.gif)
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Yeah, that's about where I figured this would end up. Sigh. Same ol' cartoons.
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Another north vs south mesh-up. Boring :P
But the Handmaidens tail, seems like an interesting base.
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Yeah, that's about where I figured this would end up. Sigh. Same ol' cartoons.
Voted for Romney and the Nasty Party*, huh? :0)
You have to then consider the advantages of being able to lead the godfearing stormtroopers of Gilead against the all drone armies** of the USC, given that they are too cowardly to fight in person.
Or possibly legions of librul supersoldiers enhanced by unrestricted stem cell research, whose powers are fuelled by constant injections of the neck fluid of aborted foetuses?
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasty_Party
**Naturally, the first thing the USC did was to ban guns, and the first thing Gilead did was to ban violent video games. Obviously, this means that there is a massive surge in aggression in the USC, and soon every pupil has around a 50% chance of being gunned down in a mass shooting every time they attend school.
So, the armies of the USC, raised on their asses playing violent video games, tend to be more aggressive but less physically fit than the soldiers of Gods Army. As a result, they rely far more heavily on drones, which the Gilead Stormtroopers avoid, in part for philosophical reasons, and in part because (as the failure of Project ORCA shows) no one who votes republican knows how to use a computer. Indeed, the USC hopes its warfighters will soon be able to conduct the war entirely through facebook while sitting in a coffee shop.
Naturally, the soft hearted nature of the Stormtroopers is a source of some embarrassment to the junta of former Fox News pundits who rule Jesusland, and they are secretly making moves to reintroduce violent video games in to the society in order to toughen them up.
--
Anyway, it is worth noting that the VBCW setting consists to a great extent of a series of extended gags, like the militant Anglican Church or the Somerset Freedom Fighters, or the BUF who owe a lot to the Brownshorts of Jeeves and Wooster.
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Like I said, same ol' cartoons. Nothing much to do with real life but I guess it feels to good to pass them around and chant and build a sort of cheap, shrill little power fantasy around it.
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The last few comments show why I am sticking to a civil war in the thirties. The 2012 election offered too many stereo types of voters on the other side, with no belief in any inherent virtue of the other side.
If I am going to present a game at a convention, and field units of Facists, KKK, communists anarchists etc, I better do so in a less charged setting then the current one.
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That is the cowards way out!
If you want people to talk, turn up with an army of modern US soldiers with NVGs painted as Helghast
(http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090717122737/killzone/images/7/73/Helghast.jpg)
and carrying Jesusland flags, lead by a Sarah Palin figure
(http://www.barking-moonbat.com/images/uploads/SarahPalinMotivator.jpg)
(http://cdnassets.ordienetworks.com/images/user_photos/945648/Palin_final_06_fullsize.jpg)
(with special rules that you have to roll a dice before you can deploy her - on a 1-5 she doesn't show up for the battle. And if she does show up you have to roll a dice every turn - on a 1-3 she quits the battle to take up a lucrative position with the media)
and with Fox News commissars/political officers.
Doing anything else is just self censorship and skirting around the issue.
(Course, I am British, so that probably provides the necessary distance that people would find it funny, rather than it starting an actual fist fight.)
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Nah, no one cares about Palin any more, she is old hat like the Simpsons or beepers.
But i won't stop you from having sci-fi WW2 Germans running around with some stars and bars, or cross, or ziggurats. lol
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For what it is worth, I think a wargame that does for US politics what this does for the internet:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-Nog6T6iuY
would be entertaining.
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This is becoming too political, too controverse and also too offensive against some of our US members. Topic locked.